Building a Premium Brand in a Commodity Category with Mark Rushmore

0:02John Lee Dumas:Who's ready to rock today? Fire Nation, JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire brought to you by HighLevel, the all-in-one sales and marketing platform. And today we'll be breaking down how to build a premium brand in a commodity category. And to drop these value bombs, I brought to Mark Rushmore and the EO Fire Studios. Mark is the co-founder and COO of Surrey, the most highly rated sustainable electric toothbrush brand on Trustpilot. He co-founded a survey to radically transform the oral health category, creating an award-winning sonic toothbrush, which sits at the intersection of performance, purpose, and design.

0:36John Lee Dumas:And I can tell you, Fire Nation, they sent me one a month ago. I've been using it every single day. Plus, they're amazing toothpaste. And I'm changed forever. I mean, I'm not going back to my old toothbrush. This is elite. So today we talk about disrupting the toothbrush category, sustainability as an advantage, building a physical product brand, and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Mark and our sponsors. Fire Nation, meet Hutworks, the number one boutique fitness franchise with 850 plus locations. They pioneered virtual workouts inside infrared saunas.

1:11John Lee Dumas:With recurring membership revenue, a low labor, high tech model in a proven franchise system, entrepreneurs gain a scalable business built for growth. Visit hutworks.net slash franchising to learn more. Stop duct taping your business together. High Level runs your website, your funnels, email, automation, scheduling, payments, and memberships all in one place. And when you sign up at highlevelfire.com, you get a 30-day free trial plus my exclusive bonus stack that includes weekly office hours with me and much more. Visit highlevelfire.com, highlevelfire.com. Mark, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with.

1:56I think that you don't have to come up with the idea yourself. You don't have to create something brand new. You don't have to be like the first one to do it. Actually, I think often it's better to work in a massive category that already exists, where there's already demand and actually improve on the existing service.

2:13John Lee Dumas:Yeah, I love that. And like, I had a lot of people that used to come to me and say, John, like, how do I come up with an idea? I go, well, what are things that you like? What do you think that like you love doing or products or services that you like? Go to Amazon, check them out, and then go to the one-star reviews. Like, what are people complaining about with those products and services that you love? Now, is there maybe an idea there about how you can create something better that takes those one-star reviews and makes them a five-star review? Now, I have a personal story that we'll be talking about in a little bit here.

2:46John Lee Dumas:I've already shared it with Mark, but I'll share it again live on this conversation here. As we talk about building a premium brand in a commodity category. So Mark, we're going to talk about disrupting the toothbrush category. And I want to know what made you believe the toothbrush space was overdue for disruption? And specifically, how did that insight lead you to the founding of Surrey? Sure. So both my co-founder and I, Gave, used to work at Procter & Gamble, this amazing, incredible consumer products company, albeit in different departments. So he was in finance and marketing based out of Geneva.

3:22I was in sales and strategy in London. So, you know, we sold billions and billions of units worth of products in different categories. And we both agreed and realized that there was a lot of waste in these products, you know, made out of plastic and excess packaging. And so we thought, I wonder if it could be done better. And then when we looked at the toothbrush category in particular, we saw that, you know, billions and billions of these brushes get thrown out and end up in landfills and oceans every year. Virtually every brush you probably ever use, John, still exists somewhere. which is incredibly wasteful.

3:54But then when we delve further into the category, we saw that, you know, there is a duopoly where the two sort of biggest players have an 80 % share in most of the markets. And then we thought, well, let's do a deep dive into those categories. And we interviewed thousands and thousands of consumers to find out what they love about their brushes, what they don't love so much. And, you know, we thought they must, everyone must love their brushes. That's why these companies have such a large market share. But actually what we discovered was there was lots of things that people didn't love. And so, you know, we discovered, first of all, A lot of people don't really use the Bluetooth function.

4:24They found it gimmicky and just maybe use it once or maybe never used it. But it would drain battery. We also discovered, you know, people's batteries were dying within a week, which seemed kind of crazy, and that people wouldn't even take them traveling because they were bulky, loud, and with the battery issues. And so we thought, what if we can make a brush that's, you know, longer-lasting, future-focused, but also with innovative materials without compromising on that performance that gives you a really sort of, you know, dentist quality clean and also like a beautiful design. So like a long lasting battery, USB-C charge and a UV light.

5:00And that was really the genesis. And ultimately, you know, kind of to my point around taking on a big category, how many people do you know who brush their teeth? Everybody. Right? So it's a huge addressable market and it doesn't matter whether you're five or whether you're 95, whether you're male or female, everyone brushes their teeth. is really truly one of the highest penetration categories with a huge addressable market. So we felt like we could really do something that made a difference.

5:25John Lee Dumas:Yeah, and I will say there's to me just a couple of things that really stick out about what Mark did, Fire Nation. And a lot of this too is like, you don't even realize how potentially bad a product is until you just start using a better one. Because at the time, it's like, that's all there is. And I was sharing this with Mark pre-interview is that for me, one thing I hated about my Oral-B that I had used for years was it just had this like flashing pulsating light. I'm like, why is this light here? It's like, it's like bugging me. It's like distracting. It's like, why do I have a light flashing on my toothbrush?

5:57John Lee Dumas:I don't need this. I don't need this light, this big, bright handled light flashing. To me, it was always very annoying, but it was like, you know, it was just what I thought was one of the only options of the market. And then number two, I didn't realize this when I started using Mark's toothbrush about a month ago, um, I really enjoyed it immediately, but then I had to go back to my other one because I went traveling and I forgot this one. and after just one toothbrush, I was like, why does my jaw hurt right now? And I'm like, oh my God, it's because like the Surrey is like so much more compact and I'm not having to like open my mouth super wide when I'm brushing my teeth.

6:27John Lee Dumas:And it's like, it was hurting my jaw all these years with this other one. And now I'm like, I can never go back because I, now I know what better is. And, you know, to me, that's a perfect segue to talking about sustainability as an advantage, Because for you, Mark, how can designing for sustainability from day one, how does that actually become a competitive advantage instead of just slowing growth, which some people might assume would be the case if you're like trying to optimize for quote unquote sustainability? Sure. You know, the whole premise of it comes about trying to do things without compromise, right?

7:01So I think back in the day, 20 years ago, if something was more sustainable, we could all agree, generally it involves a big compromise, maybe on the performance of the product or the aesthetic. And both Keith and I just hate compromising. So it's a funny analogy, but you know what? Windows PCs, great performance, right? Nothing wrong with their performance, but were they the most aesthetically beautiful? Was the UX as slick as it could be? you know was the unboxing beautiful maybe not and so i think apple really reinvented people's expectations around what was possible not just from performance but from aesthetics as well and so while we wanted to do that with suri and make it beautiful and have great features and you know the unboxing and the the aftercare is like much more thoughtfully designed we also felt that you know long term you know in the next 50 years sustainability is this this thing that's really important and therefore you know rather than trying to think about it as an afterthought once you've set up the company it's like how can we like really integrate that thinking from the beginning so you know whether that's using plant-based materials in our heads or being able to recycle for free and then turn those recycled products into new products or whether it's the there's no plastic in our packaging and really shrinking the size of the product so that it's like uses left materials it's all these like thoughtful little features that we believe are important for the long run.

8:24And look, people might not choose it for that reason, but they know that yes, it's got great performance. Yes, it's got that incredible design. But additionally, it's kind of been thought through with like a future focused mindset.

8:38John Lee Dumas:Yeah, I love that. And for one thing too, I can tell you, having spoken with Fire Nation quite a bit over the past few years, it seems to me like actually creating a physical product over time has become more and more interesting for just a lot of various reasons. So now that I have like you on the mic, Mark, I want to talk about what it really takes to not just build, but to scale a physical product business today in 2026 and beyond. And we're talking from product development to manufacturing. And of course, what could be the most difficult thing, the distribution. Yeah, well, it's certainly been a ride.

9:11You know, we launched in May 22. And in the four years since we've sold well over$100 million worth of product. You know, we're listed in Target, in Erewhon. We're the number one rated electric toothbrush in the UK here on Amazon. You know, we've won all these awards. And, you know, we got these 19 ,000 reviews from people who love the product with a 4.7 out of 5 rating on Trustpilot. But it didn't start there, of course. It starts, like you said, with that insight, you know, into what the customers want, what don't they want. And then from there, the development. So we're really lucky, you know, obviously, say we have the power of you know being able to contact factories actually when we set up the business it was during covid times and so we did everything over zoom and the first 25 factories we spoke to literally would like either hang up on us or just laugh down the phone and say like you know this is not possible why do you guys want to use those materials why do you want to have it in this design why does it have to be so sleek why does it have to be so quiet why don't you just take one of our existing products and slap your label on it but we we didn't want to compromise on performance or design or sustainability.

10:13And so fortunately, you know, we're both pretty resilient. Giv is actually probably the most stubborn person I've ever met, which, you know, in this circumstance is great and other circumstances can be challenging. But, you know, like he really was like, well, it is possible because other companies have done it with other materials. And eventually we found someone who was willing to take that risk. And so we built the product. And then in terms of distribution, you know, good old Mark Zuckerberg helped us with Facebook. You know, we ran ads from the early days and from pre-launch actually. And what we found was pretty quickly, we'd put one pound in and we'd get, you know, three or four pounds of pre-orders back.

10:52And so by the time, like, actually we shipped our first batch, on our first day, we sold out of the first 5 ,000. We went back onto pre-order. Then we sold our second batch of 5 ,000 on pre-order. And then we realized we're going to have to really ramp this up because the orders were coming in thick and fast. And it's really been, you know, a matter of like really learning as we scale, like how to continue, you know, supply, how to continue quality, how to maintain customer service, how to, you know, really blow up the ads even further. And then also, you know, distribute across different markets.

11:23You know, we're in the US and the UK. So it's been a really exciting journey over those four years. And so I think for most people, you know, the access to be able to scale via meta ads and to be able to tap into, you know, the 3PLs and to identify products, this is a time when anyone can create a product. And with the advent of AI, I think it's even easier.

11:43John Lee Dumas:Okay, Fire Nation, we've talked about building a physical product brand, about sustainability being actually an advantage. We're going to move into avoiding innovation mistakes, scaling a global brand, and more when we get back from thanking our sponsors. Fire Nation, you know I'm passionate about freedom. And as entrepreneurs, we spend a lot of time creating freedom in our businesses. But what about creating more freedom in our lives? We all define freedom in our own way. And for many, freedom might come with having a plan B. Essentially, more options for where you can live, invest, and protect what you've built without being completely tied to any one country, government, or system.

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14:45John Lee Dumas:Stop piecing tools together. Start building momentum. Visit highlevelfire.com and start building your something today. All right, Mark, we're back. And as I kind of tease before the break, I want to talk about avoiding innovation mistakes. So what's the biggest mistake that you see founders make when trying to innovate in an established category like toothbrushes? And how can founders avoid it? I'm not sure like I'm I'm kind of glad for all the mistakes we have made if that makes sense and I think like we're much better for those mistakes and honestly I think we'll continue to make those innovation mistakes but one of the big lessons that I've like would say has been like crucial to us and if I was to do this again would be the following one I would do a really thorough RFP and you know when you're selecting your factories make sure that you know you have them fill out like the same set of questions you have someone on the ground going to inspect them against certain standards and then ultimately get them to compete against and bid against each other for orders i would also recommend going to see factories who are maybe like you know factories that won't work with you now but may do in the future if you hit certain order thresholds just to understand with your own eyes like you know what what the future can look like and i think that's you know that that choice is really pivotal to a lot of your future success that's part one part two we've learned about you know having a really thorough stage gate process that involves different sign-off protocols.

16:10And I think that's really helped us improve the efficiency and the audit trail of what we've decided to do along the way as we create products. And that's something we weren't aware of in the beginning. So I think those two things would be pretty crucial to avoid mistakes.

16:25John Lee Dumas:So once we start getting some product market fit, we want to scale. But when you want to scale a global brand, what would you say are the key challenges to scale from a small startup to a global brand, especially when it comes to the tough things like manufacturing, supply chains, retail expansion? Sure. So when it comes to things like supply chain, obviously, making sure that your factory has the capacity to ramp up in advance is really crucial. Hence, asking the right RFP questions up front and understanding what's possible in line with your forecasting and your budgeting. Then I think in terms of what's crucial is for us, it's been having a growth engine, which is somewhat within our control.

17:07So let's say, you know, we know that if we put that pound into Facebook and we're going to get four pounds back, that we can continue to scale that spend as long as we maintain certain efficiency. And so it really enables you to drive that profitable awareness, first of all. And that profitable awareness then acts as a flywheel for other things like when we launch into retail or on our Amazon business. And so we have this consistent engine which is running nonstop, but then we layer on other great things. So, for example, we work with probably, I think, well, in our opinion, the most phenomenal PR agency in North America right now for consumer, which is Super Juice.

17:41And, you know, big shout out to Courtney for all the incredible coverage she's been getting us. We were on, you know, the Today Show a few weeks ago. We've been on CBS. We've been covered in pretty much every major publication.

17:52John Lee Dumas:Well, and now Entrepreneur is on fire. Like, shout out to Courtney. Hello. Right, exactly. And it's these opportunities, actually, that like ladder up on top. So you've got your growth engine, then you've got the PR on top. So people see the ad, but then they write into Google like, hey, what about this very brush? They see the podcast, they listen to it. They're like, okay, well, what do other reviewers think? Then they go on CNN underscore, they see it working there. Oh, and then it's on the Today Show. And then suddenly, these different multiple touch points really ladder up. And so I think the other thing is around trust.

18:25A lot of people, they see something on Instagram, it's like, can I believe it? And so for us, having reviews and having high-quality reviews has been crucial. And you don't have that in the beginning. And so there is an element of compounding interest over time, but we're definitely seeing that work. And the launch into Target also legitimizes it for a lot of people who are like, it's not just an Instagram-heavy brand. But actually, I can see it in my local Target store.

18:49John Lee Dumas:I mean, Fire Nation, this is the world that we live in right now, where you have the opportunities to do some really cool things by, again, learning from people who have been there and done that. And I do love what you said, Mark, by the way, about you wouldn't take away those mistakes because you learn from them. You'll make some more. I mean, that's how we, you know, fall down nine times, get up 10. So I think that's really important to talk about lessons from the journey. What would you say, Mark, is the biggest lesson that you've learned while scaling Surrey? And what would you do differently if you were starting again today?

19:19John Lee Dumas:Again, I understand you wouldn't want to miss any of those mistakes. I get that. But what would you do differently? Great question. And what would I do differently? I don't think I would do a single thing differently, which is maybe controversial. But like, you know what, I'm I'm so grateful for everything that's happened, good and bad. And it's a bit of a cop-out answer. But like, you know, yes, with the power of hindsight, I would do things totally differently. Do you know what I mean? Like I would have structured certain things differently, knowing that actually, you know, everything was going to like this thing was going to work out.

19:50So I'd have been less conservative on how we launched it. or I wouldn't have hired that person because they didn't work out, et cetera. But all of that's in hindsight. And I think I'm the person I am today because of all those mistakes. And I'll be totally honest, I'm making mistakes all day, every day and getting things wrong. But I'm trying my hardest and trying to do it within my values and within the values that we set as a company. And I think broadly speaking, trying your best and being willing to make mistakes is actually very central to our success. So I wouldn't go back and change anything per se.

20:25If I was to set up a new company today, though, I would ensure that we have very AI-enabled processes from the very beginning. I would be more structured in doing RFPs for all suppliers, and I would leverage our existing understanding of costs to negotiate the best rates with 3PLs, etc.

20:46John Lee Dumas:Mark, what is the one thing you want our listeners to walk away with from our chat? If there's just one lesson that somebody who's looking to create a product or scaly business, like what's one lesson, one takeaway you would want them to have from our conversation today? That's an easy one for me. When I left high school, before I went to university, I read this book by Richard Branson. And in it, he said, fundamentally, this is what I took away from it. Fundamentally, like, you know, the best thing to do as an entrepreneur, which I think Warren Buffett also says and other people say in various guises is always seek to minimize your downside and maximize your upside.

21:25Always look for ways to reduce your risk, but at the same time, have a big potential upside. And I have done that in every part of my life ever since. And everything that I do in the business is how I try and achieve that. So for example, after university, I joined P &G because I wanted to learn about how to do consumer goods, knowing that I want to set up a business one day. But if it didn't work out, the downside would be I could get a job probably in any other consumer goods company. So I was minimizing my downside in the long run, but maximizing my upside because one day I might be upset at my own company and take all the lessons from P &G and reapply them in my own business.

22:06But I think you can do that with everything. You can negotiate contracts such that the worst thing is that you walk away and everyone's fine. but the upside is that if it works, you all win. And I think if you can do that, sort of a bit like being the casino, stacking the odds slightly in your favor in each interaction, negotiation, in each way you approach things, over time, you stack everything in your favor. So it's really worked for me and so I would hope that it would work for your listeners too.

22:38John Lee Dumas:Yeah, that was such a great book by Richard Branson. I think it was Losing My Virginity. And when he did, when he started his Virgin Airlines, he literally just leased a jet from Boeing. So his downside was he was going to break the lease. It wasn't that huge of a downside. But the upside was he was going to have a flipping successful airline company. The upside is ginormous. So I love that. Great final way to kind of share with Fire Nation some great gems. And Mark, if Fire Nation wants to connect with you, wants to learn more about your company, maybe do what I luckily did a month ago and switch over to your toothbrush so I no longer get locked jaw on a nightly basis what is your call to action well three things one you know connect with me on LinkedIn I'm Mark Rushmore and the brand is called Suri S-U-R-I our website is try suri.com maybe we could you know in the show notes set up a discount for your listeners as a special offer if anyone does want to try out our award-winning brush but apart from that yeah you know we're at on at discover Surrey at Instagram, but you can also find us in Target and watch this space.