Convict to Closer, The Reinvention of Sales Training with Luke Lunkenheimer

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire. are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like Goal Digger Podcast. Today, we'll be breaking down Convict to Closer, the reinvention of sales training. To drop these vibe bombs, I brought Luke Lungenheimer into EO Fire Studios. Luke went from sales trainer, life changer, bank robber to millionaire. He's leveraged his ability to sell and persuade to bring himself from the cesspool of society to a dream life. Now he's paying it back. We'll talk about the old way of selling and his flaws, the pay to persuade discipline, and how Luke has officially cracked the code, and so much more.

0:42And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Luke and our sponsors. Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Ever notice how the smallest changes can have the biggest impact? On Nudge, you learn simple evidence-backed tips to help you kick bad habits, get a raise, and grow a business. Oh, and it's the UK's Fast-Growing Business Podcast, A recent episode on how to win any argument shares decade-long research into persuasion from a world-leading neuroscientist. Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

1:14Ever thought about giving a TEDx talk? It's one of the most powerful ways to share your message with the world. And four-time TEDx speaker Taylor Conroy from Thought Leader can help you get there. Visit thought-leader.com slash fire to join Taylor's free training where he teaches you how to land a TEDx talk and spread your message to millions. Luke, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Oh man, what's up Fire Nation? Big Luke here. Listen, that's an easy one for me, brother, because I am a staunch believer and for good reason that you do not have to be naturally gifted as a slick talker to be a salesperson.

1:57Quite frankly, sales is not difficult, contrary to popular belief. Fire Nation, we're talking about convict to closer, the reinvention of sales training. And your backstory, Luke, is intense. Small town guy who got a scholarship, got an injury, had surgery, lived in pain, got hooked on pay meds, had 10 years of addiction, which led to bank robbery and prison. What did you learn from this experience? Oh, man, we would need a few days to come back. But most importantly, the one takeaway from all of it, my friend, was that anybody can do it. I lived in a very small town, as you said. And, you know, getting that scholarship was my ticket out, which is something that very few people got where I came from.

2:45You know, we had a graduating class of 81 kids, something like 30 percent of them actually went on to higher education. So it was an event for somebody to get accepted to a college. It was a bigger event for somebody to actually be able to afford it or have the methods to facilitate actually going. And to get a scholarship, I was a big frog in a small pond. So at that time, though, we were really surrounded by a small town think. I grew up very naive, tons and tons of barriers. I listen to Entrepreneurs on Fire. And one of the recurring themes that I continue to hear from people who have broke through and gotten success, which is very accurate, is that we grow up with barriers.

3:22You know, they're put in there by our parents, by our mentors, by the people we grow up with. And they're not intentional. They're not things that are done maliciously or nefariously, but nonetheless, they are there. So in this group of negative experiences between sleeping under bridges and finding cardboard dumpsters to keep me warm in the winter, and eventually going to the depths of bank robbery and the way to state prison, And I learned that, you know, not only could somebody who was revered in their local town as kind of a small town hero like myself could go straight to the bottom, that there was no safeguards to keep me from going there if, in fact, I made those decisions.

4:00But on the flip side of it, you know, when the sun came up, I adjusted my moral compass, got sober and began to move towards the light, if you will, was that anybody can do it, man, with the right network, with the right influence. you know they say and I hear you say frequently JLD that you are a product of the five people you spend the most time with that is so real man that is so real and frankly you know I was I was a pessimist I was a naysayer I was the guy that grew up saying oh man all these people they they were born with a silver spoon or they had their daddy's connection or there's something there's something underneath the surface that has gotten them and to where they are or been their conduit to success.

4:40It's not just blood, sweat, and tears. It's not just hard work. It's not just reaching out and shaking hands. It's not that simple. But quite frankly, sir, that's exactly what it is. So that is what I had learned. I love this message. And I actually have my own personal belief about barriers. There's this book called Anti-Fragile, which is just a fantastic book. And it just goes into all these amazing stories about people who have achieved unbelievable levels of success. And one commonality they had is that they had so much struggle early in their life that they had to cope with, learn how to deal with, break through those barriers that they became not fragile.

5:20They became anti-fragile. And that was such a key commonality for them. So in a lot of ways, Fire Nation, those of you that are listening that are saying, man, I have barriers too. Good. I'm glad you have barriers. Learn how to break through those. They will make you stronger. And, you know, I have my first child, Beau, he's five months old. And because of the successes that I've had, I had many barriers earlier in my life, but because of the successes that I've had recently, I'm able to give this kid the most posh, comfortable life in existence. And I'm doing the exact opposite. I will be putting barriers in front of this kid every day of his life because I know that that's going to make him better, stronger, more fierce of a human being.

6:04But I want to shift and talk about really the core, the theme of our message today. And that's like what you've been able to do. And that's getting the old sales system out. So let's talk about the old way of selling and the flaws. Tell us more. That's a great question, brother. And man, that's like opening Pandora's box as far as I'm concerned because this is what I'm passionate about. So truth be told, I was raised by wolves, right? At the age of 18, I started at a car dealership where they taught this, you know, benefit request selling. And very frankly, when we're talking about tangible assets, like for instance, the car business, I'll speak on where my start came from.

6:45I was taught that you greet somebody, you lightly qualify them, you establish a level of interest, you then showcase a product. And to be a superb salesperson, you know your product, you showcase your product, you tell about the features and the benefits, and you relate them to the individual and how those benefits are going to assist them and augment their lives and make them better. And then once you've felt as though you've built the maximum amount of value that you possibly can, then you trial close. And if you get an objection, well, you have a word track and you overcome the objection. Well, then if you get another objection, we've got a word track for that, too.

7:20And ultimately, what we see across the landscape is that individuals are trained to emulate their sales trainer or the book of sales training rebuttals. There is so much word track and rebuttal training out there in the marketplace. It's frightening, brother. And frankly, in my ecosystem where I live and what I do, realistically, what I'm up against are social media personalities. I mean, if I could audit these guys and see how much time they spent on actually honing their craft and trying to devise a better way to distill the ability to sell into easily retainable and receivable information so that anybody could use it and execute upon it, I don't think I would find a significant amount of time spent on it.

8:07And I'm not trying to throw shade. I'm very simply saying this. We have been able to, with the paid to persuade selling discipline, notice I don't call it a program or a system. It is a discipline. It is a discipline of professional behavior, a way to behave, a way to approach the sale that is completely reversed from traditional selling. We focus on compassionate interrogation at the outset. And JLD, we don't even showcase a product or talk about a service until we've spoken to the customer at such great length that we know exactly where we need to take that sale and that we're assured when we take it there, we're going to get a close.

8:45So to your point and to that question, there is so much value building in products and services that it's counterproductive. What I mean by that, if it's not resonating with anybody, you need to know that what you're selling somebody makes sense to them. You need to know that they're interested. There's a level of interest beyond just, yeah, I'm willing to take a listen. You need to know what is going on in their life where your service is going to apply and solve the problem. What product are they after and why are they after it? They may be fundamentally wrong in what they're looking for, and they may need your assistance to show them something else that aligns better with what they're trying to accomplish.

9:25And until we do that deep level of compassionate interrogation, ultimately, we're just doing what I like to call spray and cry. We're showing products and we're guessing and we're trial closing and we're overcoming objections when in reality, we just need to focus on the customer and their needs. Fire Nation, I hope you're getting fired up with this process. We're actually going to be doing a deep dive into the paid to persuade discipline when we get back from thanking our sponsors. Welcome to the world of entrepreneurship. More things added to your to-do list every day and less time to accomplish the things that matter most.

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12:27Taylor has put together a free training that's going to teach you how to land a TEDx talk in as little as 90 days. Join Taylor to learn exactly what TEDx organizers are looking for in their speakers, how to write a talk that goes viral once it goes online, and more. Visit thought-leader.com slash fire. Join Taylor for this free training and get your message out of your head, out of your heart, and out into the world where it belongs. That's thought-leader.com slash fire. Luke, we are back and we teased the fact that we're diving into the paid to persuade discipline. So brother, tell us more. Listen, man, I appreciate that.

13:06So the paid to persuade discipline, and again, I want to reiterate discipline. This is not, I'm not selling you the system. So what we see out there are people who, I have made this much money in this industry doing this and I can show you how to do it. In this collection of years, I was able to bring my career to this level and I can get you there too. The whole idea there is that they're going to take the consumer, the person purchasing the training or the individual trying to get better and emulate themselves, recreate what they've done. And frankly, I don't see how somebody can wholly buy into that.

13:39People need a relatable individual to bring them information. So with the paid to persuade discipline, we leverage something called the big three. OK, and I'll gladly give a few value nuggets here for the for the fire nation and not gate these with a cost at all, because at the surface level, when we say the big three, for instance, they are what brought you here? What's your buying power? What did you hope to accomplish today? Every veteran salesman chuckles and goes, OK, buddy, well, you're not revolutionizing the system. You're not recreating the wheel here. I ask everybody what they're doing here, what they're hoping to accomplish.

14:11And I try to establish buying power. It's not the question. It's the understanding that we need to continue to dig until we get the answer that we need. For every situation, for every customer, for every product or service, that answer is going to be different. So it's the overarching theme that, hey, man, before I move forward, I need an idea of what brought you here. So, for instance, let's talk about like tangible asset sales. Somebody is at a car dealership, okay? And the salesperson generally asks, okay, hey, guys, what brought you here today? And on their little four-square sheet, they have their…

14:44There are tracking metrics for media and advertising. And it's drive-by, repeat and referral, saw Google ads, saw Facebook ads, et cetera, et cetera. Customer says, well, we were just driving by. Salesperson says, OK, checks off the drive-by box and keeps it moving. Somebody who's trained in the paid-to-persuade discipline doesn't stop there. They say, oh, Mr. Customer, you know, I understand. Everybody's just driving by until they're pulling. And I was more curious, are you replacing a vehicle? Was there a total loss accident? we get lots of customers who hit deer in central new york and they need to replace their primary mode of transportation i also get people that are on their lunch break from the local factory and they're coming through and they only have 20 minutes so what i'd like to do is optimize for your time and just get a little better idea of what you're doing here today when the customer hears that they're not just simply feeling like they're being interrogated for information they're feeling as though you actually care you want to give them a good value for their time so sure i'll answer that question.

15:40I'll bite young man. I'm here because I'm on break from lunch. Okay, great. Now we know we got 20 minutes. Now we need to optimize for 20 minutes. So we don't stop that process. And JLD, frankly, I spent 20 minutes on the first question because I know that as I mine that data and as I get that information, I'm going to put myself in a position where I can streamline to an effective close that pays the most respect to gross profit margin that gets me through it as efficiently as possible so I can maximize her volume. The next question, established buying power. JLD, how many times do we know a salesperson or ourselves?

16:15We've engaged with a client and at the end of the conversation, we're moving towards the close and everything looks great. We built all the value and we think they're just ready to pull the trigger. And it's like, all right, man, so what do you think? You want to wrap it up today? Well, you know, I think I would like to, but I'm not really in a position right now financially. So what I try to, tell people, you know, when they're interested in potentially engaging with paid to persuade, the question I ask them is if when you speak to your customer at the outset, if they handed you a piece of paper and on that piece of paper, it told you exactly what they were looking to accomplish, exactly what product or service they were interested in, exactly why they needed said product or service, all of the pertinent information you needed to establish movement towards a close.

16:59Also, it lets you know how much cash was in their pocket, how much cash was in their bank account, whether or not they qualified for the financing incentives that you have for them. And then ultimately at the bottom, it said, by the way, I'm not planning on buying, but if you're compelling, I could be talked into it. Or I'm absolutely buying today, 100%. You just got to get me to the right product. Or there's no way I'm buying today. I'm not financially capable. I need to speak to my wife. And frankly, I've only got five minutes. Would not that be the most valuable piece of paper that you could be handed?

17:29And would that not be a dream situation? The answer, of course, is rhetorical. And frankly, JLD, that's exactly what you get when you follow the page of Persuade Discipline. Fire Nation, I love this kind of process where you can just kind of step back and say, hey, I have the information that I need to make this happen. Because, man, it's pretty obvious to me and I think to you too, Fire Nation, that Luke has cracked the code. I mean, you can train people to be confident and close every closable deal while optimizing for efficiency, which is key. And you're actually the only sales training company that guarantees results or money is going back into that person's pockets.

18:10So how the heck do you pull this off? I love that question, brother, because it's so hard to believe. How could you possibly, without needing the human being, know what they're capable of? Here's what we know. When an individual engages with the paid to persuade discipline and they follow it front to back, They do exactly as they're taught and they engage intently. They see and they realize a far more significant commission or financial outcome increase than aligns with our guarantee. To be clear, in a business-to-business space, for instance, we're training an automotive aftermarket products company right now.

18:48And the first training class went back to their establishment. And within the first 10 days of receiving this training and going back and implementing what they learned, they were generally writing triple their initial ticket. So for me to guarantee in a B2B space that I can bring 10 % up on the pie chart is not a difficult thing for me to do. And all you have to do to align with that guarantee is simply be in the system, continually watch the modules and engage with the information and attend a monthly call with us where we just go back through, make sure that everything's aligning correctly, making sure that you're receiving the information the way it was intended to be received.

19:24in the B2B space, or excuse me, B2C space, where we've got an individual who maybe they're a salesperson, they're door-to-door, they're a car salesperson, tangible asset, or a service salesperson. It doesn't matter. When they're engaging with us, they're spending the money. So their level of engagement is a little higher, and they're more intent on learning. They're more motivated as somebody whose company is, say, just buying it for them. We guarantee a 20 % monetary increase year over year with that individual. And the answer is, JLD, it's not about the individual. When you take the person out of the equation, meaning this, it doesn't matter who iterates with this information.

19:59It doesn't matter who receives it. I'd like you to think of it like this, Fire Nation. A long time ago, we used to walk over to the wall and we used to pick up a device, put it to our ear. It was corded and it then traveled to another item on the wall. You know where I'm going with this, where you stuck your finger in and you spun it around seven times to dial the phone number. This was before you had to enter the area code. A gentleman in the early 2000s who was known for making computers said, I'm going to fundamentally change the way we communicate. Now, that device was called the telephone.

20:34And the man who said that, who was almost last out of the room, if it weren't for the fact that he was already a successful entrepreneur in the tech space, was Mr. Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace. Steve Jobs told the world he was going to fundamentally change the way we communicated. He was going to make a phone so sexy that you wanted to lick the buttons off it. He was actually quoted saying, and this individual told people he was going to fundamentally change the way we communicated. The telephone was all wrong. It needed far more features to be beneficial and he was going to change the world.

21:06And that prospect was laughable at that time. Well, I don't know about you, JLD, but I'm looking at my iPhone on my desk. How about you? I'm looking at my iPhone right now. So I say that to say this. Steve Jobs knew something. He had information and he had a vision that nobody else had. And I'm not trying to put myself on that level. I will no way align myself with Steve Jobs. Hopefully one day I may. But what I know is this. I came across this information, frankly, by accident. Now, I told you, JLD, when we first started talking that I was a very candid individual And I was going to say it exactly as it was.

21:42The reality of the situation, I hold no punches. This is not something that has been designed from the ground up like a mad scientist in the lab. This is something that I discovered by accident. When I started my car dealerships, it was with an investment from an employer who saw something in me. We eventually scaled to several stores. What started happening, I was actually on the floor selling in our first dealership. We got so busy because apparently I was doing something right, thank goodness. and we got such an influx in business. I got to the point where I looked at my wife who, God bless her, was pregnant and still working the best right there in the showroom.

22:17Shout out Nikki Lunkin, I'm the love of my life. She was looking at me going, Dave, what are we gonna do? It's just, you know, how do we maximize this? I said, don't worry, I'm gonna come up with a way. So the big three that I spoke of previously, those qualifiers, I just started going up to each individual and being like, hey man, what brought you here? What are we doing today? What's the plan? What are you here to see? Not trying to be rude, but I got to maximize for time. Look around you. We're busy. Yep, man, I get it. We would mine data. We would ask questions. Then we didn't want to move any further until we knew that they had the buying power.

22:47We were in a rough area. The demographic was slightly shifted down as far as finances are concerned. Hey, we get it, but we had to optimize for time. So we then asked about buying power. Then once we got that information, we moved towards, okay, listen, man, if we get you a great deal, if we get you approved, if we get you the right automobile, could we potentially earn your business today. And it wasn't certainly what it is today. It is far more complex and far more leveraged in the human condition now. But once I started executing upon that, JLD, we started tripling what we were putting out the door.

23:17So fast forward several years later, three successful car dealerships, a small tech company that we're building, other entrepreneurial ventures. I said, you know what? Frankly, I'm not a very good car dealer. I would look at my inventory turn. I would at my marketing efforts and all of these things were par so one day i'm sitting in here with a bank representative and i was like joe what why are we so good like frankly i can't see it why do we put up these numbers he says luke have you ever listened to your sales people they are assassins i said joe i just i just train them in this little framework that i came up with here he goes luke i don't know what you do with these people but they are at least three times more effective than any individual I see at any other dealership.

24:00So that spurred thought process, John. And I began iterating upon that and saying, okay, well, maybe I've got something here. And then as the years went by, my wife compelled me and she said, honey, you have a gift. You need to bring this to the world. And I thought to myself, and I've always had kind of that imposter syndrome, right? I know many entrepreneurs go through that. What gives me the authority to be here? Why should I thrust myself into the marketplace and tell people they should listen to me? Well, the answer was I had a solution. So to kind of vet myself as a litmus test, if you will, I hired a whole bunch of new recruits and I did not train any of them the way I trained my veteran salespeople who were still very effective.

24:39I gave them the pay to persuade discipline. I trained them in this framework. I then let them lose on the sales floor in a way where I had minimal interaction with them. I just gave them the information. I gave them some supporting videos and Q &A. And I said, you're on your own. I'm too busy to train you any further. Off they went. These people doubled the productivity of the individuals that I had that were four and five year veterans. So the proof was in the pudding, brother. And it was at that point, I realized it was the information, not the individual, because all due respect to that graduating class, okay, to persuade, they were not by any means the most talented salespeople or even speakers I had ever come across.