From Burned Once to Built Right: Relaunching a Tech Startup the Smart Way with Rachel Dove

0:02John Lee Dumas:Who's ready to rock today, Fire Nation? JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire, brought to you by High Level, the all-in-one sales and marketing platform. Today we'll be talking about going from burned once to built right, relaunching a tech startup the smart way. To drop these vibe bombs, I brought Rachel Dove, Neo Fire Studios. Rachel is the founder of Dungeons Not Dating, a platform helping players find tabletop parties. After setbacks and a beta year, She rebuilt, learned to code, and relaunched with a waitlist-first growth strategy. And today we talk about validation versus vulnerability.

0:35John Lee Dumas:We talk about the moment of being taken advantage of, learning to code to change a game, and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Rachel and our sponsors. Starting your own business can be really intimidating, and that's why I love tools that don't just help you do more, but actually make everything simpler. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing... Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash on fire. Go to shopify.com slash on fire. Stop duct taping your business together. High Level runs your website, your funnels, email, automation, scheduling, payments, and memberships all in one place.

1:14John Lee Dumas:And when you sign up at highlevelfire.com, you get a 30-day free trial plus my exclusive bonus stack that includes weekly office hours with me and much more. Visit highlevelfire.com. highlevelfire.com. Rachel, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. All right. Well, what's up, Fire Nation? I think the biggest thing people are going to want to fight me on here is that traction is not enthusiasm. It is behavior. So if you are judging your traction by social media likes, that's not going to guarantee any kind of conversion or any real traction.

2:02You need behavior patterns to really validate that.

2:05John Lee Dumas:I love this. And Fire Nation, we're going to have a great conversation with Rachel today, all about going from burned once to built right, relaunching a tech startup the smart way. And Rachel, I want to start by talking about validation versus vulnerability, specifically in your beta year, because your first beta year of Dungeons Not Dating. It taught you some hard lessons as a first-time founder. What did that season reveal about the difference between seeking validation and choosing real vulnerability? Yeah, of course. So early validation really, really felt like the compliments I was getting when I would share this idea of this app with folks, I would always get amazing feedback.

2:49This is such a great idea. This is exactly what we've been missing. And it felt great. But kind of what I mentioned before, enthusiasm does not equal retention or referrals. So I really, really did confuse community support with a strong product market fit. I thought I was there. Um, so that really came into play for me. And then also learning how to set my own boundaries because vulnerability is very, very powerful, but I still needed to set my own boundaries and validate the behavior and not the applause. Uh, so there was just a very steep learning curve for, for me in that first year.

3:34John Lee Dumas:Fire Nation, here's some hard truth. Most people in this world, They're just people pleasers. It doesn't make them a bad person, but people just like to say nice things to others, especially others they like. And I'm telling you, if you meet Rachel, you're going to like her. You're going to want to say nice things to her. And that's what happened. Oh yeah, Rachel, that's a great idea. That's definitely going to work. But listen, people vote with their wallet. You have to say, okay, well, here's the first month deposit. Like let's, if you really think this is a great idea, like let's see you invest.

4:02John Lee Dumas:Let's see you subscribe. Let's see you become a member. You need to really focus on real data. And I want to talk about the moment of being taken advantage of, Rachel, because you've spoken openly about this, about being taken advantage of early, early on. So what actually happened? Tell us that story. Yeah. So for legal reasons, I can't give away names, but basically - Can you say sounds like Big Bird? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so it is one of the larger app development firms in the US and they had great reviews and the founder had that silver tongue that everyone can get easily sucked in by.

4:43But really what happened was I just trusted this company way too quickly and I outsourced way too much of the ownership of my project, right? I had all these things in mind of how this is going to work and what it should look like and what it should feel like. And from my own experience playing Dungeons and Dragons, I knew exactly the flow I was looking for. But I didn't have the technical skills, ability or literacy to do it on my own. So I outsourced so much and it just left me so fully exposed. closed. So when that company just kept on letting me down, charging me more, pushing back the deadlines, telling me the issues I was seeing were on my end, user error, you know, I'd log in and say, hey, the text codes aren't coming through.

5:34And they'd say, well, they came through for me, so you're doing it wrong. You don't know how to use your own app. And that's the problem. That's the real problem. But if you want us to do something, just pay us another 10 grand and we'll fix it. It just really got to this breaking point where I was at this fork on the road where I either had to walk away with a complete and total loss, completely embarrassed, you know, tuck my tail between my legs and head back to my nine to five and ask my director for my job back, or I had to take some radical ownership and gain the literacy that I needed in order to have the better conversations with developers and make the right choices for the development team I'd bring on.

6:20So obviously, I chose ownership. So the moment I realized that I couldn't explain the back end of my own product was the moment I knew I had to rebuild it.

6:32John Lee Dumas:See, I actually love that, Rachel, because I can tell you that one thing that is so common for me is everybody was like, John, you need to outsource your editing. You just need to, like as soon as you've done the interview, like don't get burned out, like send the editing to somebody else. They can do, they can do the editing, the intros, the outros of music, the this, the that. And I'm just like, but wait a second, like these are skills that I need. Like I need these. Cause what happens if I get to make a change like at 10 AM on a Tuesday, like now, like, am I going to be relying on somebody else for these technical skills that I can acquire?

7:03John Lee Dumas:So I've done over 5 ,000 episodes, Rachel, of entrepreneurs on fire. I've edited and done the sponsorships and the intros and the music for every single episode. I mean, listen, I'm willing to put in the work because I need to keep up this expertise. I need to keep up this knowledge. This is what keeps me powerful. And that's a perfect segue to you learning to code, to change the game. I mean, you made a bold move because not many people do this, but you enrolled in a full-time coding bootcamp. So why was that the right decision at that moment? How did it help? Well, with that company that took advantage of me, I didn't have any leverage with them because I didn't have the literacy.

7:44So it was so easy for them to lie to me, to tell me, oh, it's just going to be another week. And like you mentioned, having the skills yourself, it's powerful. It gives you power, leverage, and really just the confidence and speed needed. So I signed up for this full-time coding boot camp to learn the Mernstack. I dove in because I knew I didn't need to become a senior engineer. I just needed technical fluency and the ability for pattern recognition. And it really did. It changed the conversations I could have with developers. It reduced fear. It really did give me that leverage. It just, you know, learning to code, it didn't change my product, but it changed my personal posture in the tech world.

8:38John Lee Dumas:See, that's powerful. And now, I mean, And, you know, here we are today, like vibe coding is becoming a huge thing and cloud code. And honestly, like people that know nothing about coding are going to struggle with that, even though it's quote unquote, you know, easy, but people that have actual knowledge about coding, they're super dangerous now because they can really talk to talk and walk to walk and they can say, okay, like this is great stuff. So, I mean, this skill to me is even more valuable now than it was even before. Now that you have all these tools that really make you able to scale and leverage and utilize AI, et cetera.

9:09John Lee Dumas:And Fire Nation, we're talking about a lot more great stuff when we get back from thanking our sponsors. There's no better time to review your systems than the new year. And one of the most important systems you can streamline right now is your communications. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the smarter way to run your business communications with more than 90 ,000 businesses from solo operators to growing teams, relying on Quo to stay connected, professional, and consistently reachable every single day. It's no wonder Quo is the number one rated phone system on G2 with over 3 ,000 reviews.

9:42John Lee Dumas:And that's because Quo isn't just a phone system. It's a smart system. What do I mean by that? Well, Quo's AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries, and highlights next steps so nothing gets lost. It can even qualify leads or respond after hours, ensuring your business stays responsive even when you're offline. Talk about easy. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free, plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash fire. That's Q-U-O dot com slash fire. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Finding the right tools to run and grow your business, all while trying to figure out everything on your own, is something I'm very familiar with.

10:23John Lee Dumas:I've been there. Starting your own business can be really intimidating and lonely, and that's why I love tools that don't just help you do more, but actually make everything simpler. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is designed to help you get started fast with hundreds of ready-to-use templates so you can build a beautiful online store that matches your brand. And once you're up and running, Shopify helps you stay efficient with AI tools that can write product descriptions, create page headlines, and even enhance your product photos. Plus, Shopify helps you market like you've got a team behind you with easy-to-run email and social campaigns so you can reach customers wherever they're scrolling.

10:57John Lee Dumas:And if you ever get stuck, Shopify has award-winning 24-7 customer support. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash onfire. Go to shopify.com slash onfire. That's shopify.com slash onfire. Fire Nation, ideas are exciting, but systems will allow you to create freedom. That is where high level comes in. High Level allows you to build and run your entire business from one platform. Website builder and hosting, funnel and landing pages, email marketing, automation and workflows, calendar booking, payments and subscriptions, even course and membership hosting.

11:38John Lee Dumas:Everything works together seamlessly. Plus, award-winning 24-7 support so you are never stuck. And when you go through my link at highlevelfire.com, you unlock my full bonus stack. a 30-day free trial of High Level with full access, a private 50-minute coaching call with me, weekly live office hours with me, a digital copy of my book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, my 50 days to something execution roadmap, and more. Stop piecing tools together. Start building momentum. Visit highlevelfire.com and start building your something today. Rachel, we're back, and I want to keep this conversation going talking about rebuilding with the technical literacy.

12:19John Lee Dumas:I mean, during the redesign, what were the most important changes that you made now that you were in control, now that you had the power? Yeah, well, first and foremost, I kicked that development firm to the curb and hired my own dev team, which has been phenomenal. I get to work with a gentleman named Tamor who's just been a godsend. But past that, when you understand the system, you stop designing fantasy features and you start designing things a lot more simplistically, behavior focused and infrastructure first. So through this whole redesign, we removed a lot of unnecessary friction, moved to a more feature heavy to core utility, basically.

13:12So really hitting that MVP of exactly what's needed and just refining those. And then also being able to build it with scalability in mind, because as we all know, the first step is never the last. This is a very, very long stairway to heaven here. So I've got a lot more things to climb up, but definitely building that infrastructure with that strong, strong foundation so that I can start implementing all these features as we go on and as I see what the market is demanding.

13:45John Lee Dumas:Love this so much. I mean, Fire Nation, man, it just feels so good when you're in control and you have the understanding. And now you can say like, I realize this is actually doable. This is feasible. Now let's implement. and you have control over that team and you're working with them. I mean, that's just exciting. That's where you want to be. So let's talk about choosing patience over hype, Rachel, because instead of pushing for this mass adoption, you're actually prioritizing a wait list and college gaming club outreach, which is like, I mean, if that's not your core audience, what is? So why is this slow build approach critical to creating real traction and community this time around?

14:23Yeah, so I think here, What I'm really, really leaning into is that community first growth in a focused distribution here because really that density is going to beat volume every time. Platforms live or die by the network density. So a lot of founders think that they need more users, but what early stage founders really need is more of the right users. So by taking a step back and really prioritizing those stronger focused target audiences that already have a little bit of a community drive behind them and community culture, what I'm really trying to do is build that wait list to build some anticipation and also to get the data I need and the feedback that I need before I scale.

15:16Really, I'm looking for those raving fans that are going to sit there and love the product, but also give me that honest feedback of, hey, it'd be better if. So I can really build that ideal app that's going to fit the broader audience eventually. But starting with the right users is going to be really, really important here.

15:38John Lee Dumas:Now, just for the listeners, and they're here, they're just like, okay, I mean, Dungeons, not dating. That sounds cool. And just, you know, a few sentences, explain to us, what is Dungeons Not Dating? Oh yeah, perfect. So basically it is Tinder, but to find your perfect D &D party rather than a date. So think the same thing as a dating profile, except now we're putting the focus on your D &D character and you're still going to get to swipe through other people and see who you want to play an epic, fantastical adventure with. I love that. That was a great breakdown. Let's talk about the rebuilders mindset.

16:18John Lee Dumas:So for entrepreneurs who are listening, who are rebuilding after a major setback, and let's be honest, you had a pretty major setback, but you came back stronger than ever. They're questioning whether it's worth continuing. They're like, do I just stop? Do I just quit? What lesson or maybe mindset shift helped you stay in the game? So I think the biggest thing here is the setbacks. Yes, they are hard, but they are also data. I learned so much from those setbacks. It allowed me to step back and ask, what skill gap did this expose? And that's what made me decide to invest in my own literacy. And really, I keep talking about relaunching the app, relaunching these systems.

17:00But what I've actually done here is more than just rebuild my app. I rebuilt myself. I had to upgrade myself as a founder before I could upgrade my product. So every single setback is really just an opportunity with way more data. So you know exactly where to focus your efforts before diving back in. And then again, just kind of hitting on that point that you've mentioned too with doing your own editing. Ownership is freedom and it is so, so, so powerful. So yes, as a founder, please feel free, outsource the things that you really, really need to, but really taking ownership, understanding every aspect of your product, understanding the different systems and workflows and why they didn't work out.

17:49That's going to be what launches you forward.

17:52John Lee Dumas:Rachel, we've talked about a lot today. The rebuilder's mindset, patience over hype, rebuilding with technical literacy, learning to code to change the game, the moment you were taking advantage of, validation versus vulnerability. What's the one thing that you would love for Fire Nation to walk away with from our conversation today? I think the biggest thing here is just being radically unafraid to rebuild yourself and And strengthen your community because that's why we're entrepreneurs. You know, I mean, I'm sure there are some entrepreneurs out there chasing a dollar, but most entrepreneurs, 99 % of us are out there chasing a problem that we can solve.

18:37So keeping your focus on solving that problem and the people that you're solving the problem for is really going to help you become the best version of yourself, as well as build the best product for that community that you're lifting up.

18:51John Lee Dumas:Rachel, of Fire Nation, our listeners, if they want to connect with you, if they were to learn more about what you're doing, what is your call to action for our listeners today? Of course. Well, right now, as I mentioned, we are about to relaunch the app. But first, we're building that wait list. So if anyone is interested in seeing what I'm building here for our Dungeons and Dragons community, you can find me at dungeonsnotdating.com and there's a big button on the screen there to join our wait list if you want to be notified as soon as that app launches and you can find me on almost every social media platform out there just at Dungeons Not Dating.

19:31John Lee Dumas:Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with RD and JLD today so keep up that heat and for links to everything we talked about visit eofire.com type Rachel in the search bar The show notes page will pop right up. And Rachel, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thank you, Fire Nation. Hey, Fire Nation, a huge thank you to our sponsors and Rachel for sponsoring today's episode. And Fire Nation, are you an entrepreneur on fire who's looking to share your amazing message with the world?

20:05John Lee Dumas:If yes, we are now accepting applications for entrepreneurs on fire. To learn more about becoming a guest, visit eofire.com slash guest. And I'll catch you there or on the flip side. Shopify is designed to help you get started fast with access to everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing, sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash on fire. Go to shopify.com slash on fire. Stop duct taping your business together. High Level runs your website, your funnels, email, automation, scheduling, payments, and memberships all in one place.

20:47John Lee Dumas:And when you sign up at highlevelfire.com, you get a 30-day free trial plus my exclusive bonus stack that includes weekly office hours with me and much more. Visit highlevelfire.com. Highlevelfire.com.