How Entrepreneurs Can Build Their Own App without Knowing How to Write a Single Line of Code with Emil Egeland: An EOFire Classic from 2022

0:28Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation. in one year each. He then helped another business go from 1.1 to 6 million in two years. And in today's episode, we'll talk about how your software has to do what it has to do, and it has to do it relatively fast, and that you can buy source code for different portions of your software, and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Emil and our sponsors. Franocity has helped hundreds of people leave unfulfilling jobs, invest in recession, resilient businesses, and create legacy income for their families through franchising. Get started today with Franocity's franchise funding guide, packed with real-world strategies to launch your business without draining your savings.

1:08Visit Franocity.com. That's F-R-A-N-O-C-I-T-Y dot com. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white-label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today. Emil, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Hello, everybody. I think that if you want to be a successful entrepreneur I think you got to be a bit of a sadomasochist because there's 90 % chance that you're going to fail so you got to be up for some pain if you fail and if you're successful you're going to experience growing pain stress and all that stuff that comes with being successful so I think if you want an easy life, easy success I suggest you go for politics in politics.

2:16There's other people's money to burn. There is no responsibility for your action, and you can touch any woman you want without consequences. And you can be incredibly corrupt, have money stuffed in your pocket. And even if you don't get reelected, you still get paid your initial salary for the rest of your life, which is absolutely pathetic. I think I got to be on a different podcast, to be honest. I should be on some politics. What a fantastic way to start the episode off. I mean, Fire Nation, if you're still listening, God bless you, because we're talking about how entrepreneurs can build their own app without knowing how to write a single line of code.

2:54And I'm going to be honest with you, Emil, people are terrified of software. So man, when I saw the first thing I want to chat with you about was software, I just wanted to say, can anybody actually create software? I mean, you believe this so explain yourself yeah i actually think this episode is for anybody who has been jealous of those silicon valley guys who comes out of nowhere and it's like one year later they're billionaires you know and um i i'm a software entrepreneur and i can barely write the line of code so i'll take you through my process and i think there's uh i call it four dimensions of uh of creating software it's one dimensional two dimensional three dimensional and four-dimensional and why you want to level up to three or four.

3:40So if you're ready, we'll just jump straight into it. Is that okay? Let's dive into it, brother. Yeah, so if you're going to create software like most people do in the one-dimensional way, you have to type it line by line. And for the people listening today, that's problematic, I think, because most of them are entrepreneurs, so they don't know how to code. And second of all, it's a very slow way to create an application or a software. And that's what most people do. And that's what I did the first time I created a software. And the first software I created was back in 2014. And my business partner, Rune, and I, we just launched a company who did bathroom renovations.

4:25I just tell them the backstory because then they understand why I needed a software and also why they might want to have one themselves. and Rune did all the project management and I did all the selling you know I went on a sales inspections meeting customers and we did it in Oslo Norway and it took me about two hours doing each inspection because the traffic back and forward and spending time on the on the actual inspection and then each inspection four to six of them each day so that's like eight, 12 hours just on the inspections. Then I have to make the proposals afterwards. And, you know, at that point also, I just got married.

5:06We had our first child and I was sleeping on the concrete floor in our office because I had to get those proposals out as soon as possible. And it just wasn't, I don't know, it didn't feel like success to me, even though we were selling a lot of bathrooms. So I was like, something got to change. And I don't know if you've been in a situation like that where things are going well, but yeah. I've experienced that. I mean, it's the path of an entrepreneur. I mean, when things start off on fire, you're like, it's going to be like this forever. And then you hit this like plateau. And sometimes they even call it the valley of death, where for just inexplicable reasons, things kind of bottom out.

5:41They're there for a while. And some people make it through and some people don't. So keep on rolling, Emil. Yeah. So I was like, this is not how I want to live my life. But you know, I want everything. I'm the kind of guy like I go fast. I like to have everything at once. And I had a beautiful wife, a super cute kid, and I didn't want the company to grow any slower. So I was like, but there's no way I can, you know, meet any more clients or get any of those proposals out faster. So I did some research and I think that's smart. Anyway, if you're going to create software, do some research on why you want to create software.

6:14And anyway, so I found that companies who send their proposal within 24 hours compared to three to four days increase their sales by 26%. Wow. That's amazing, isn't it? And I was like, I can need those stats. And then I was working from my woke up until I passed out on this ugly mattress on the concrete floor below my little desk there. And I couldn't possibly work anymore. So I was like, how can I do this? so then i looked at what we were doing and and all my proposals they were selling uh tile floors tile walls we had a bathroom sink we had a toilet and a shower it's typically the same and we sold the same for every customer and i think it's the same for everybody you know they're selling mostly the same products over and over so it's if it's a digital marketing agency you're selling the same over and over facebook ads google ads or whatever and if you're consulting you're selling a consulting packages and so on so i was like okay if i can somehow put this into some kind of software that creates the proposal for me i'll be like yeah so i can send the proposal really fast i'll save some time and maybe see my kids a little bit more you know and then of course i i don't know how to code so i think i did what most people do i went to upwork and i posted this uh posting saying hey hey, guys, I'm looking for a software to create proposals.

7:39And, you know, when I posted that, I had this feeling, you know, it's like if you're walking into a strip club with a lot of money, you know you're going to walk out to there with less money than when you walk in. And I could hear, like, the developers conference down in Miami, Florida, and I just started shouting, yes, here comes another schmuck who needs an application, because that's the feeling I get, you know. So I got over 70 people responding, and everyone was like, Like, yeah, yeah, I'm the best developer. I can do everything you need. And I'm the best. I'm better than the rest. And we do it in the most modern language and whatever.

8:12And, you know, everything was great to me. Because all I wanted was, you know, get my proposal out the door. And so I was like, okay, these guys are super smart. But I've been out, you know, a cold winter night before growing up in Norway. So I'm going to be smarter than them. So I decided, okay, guys, I'll hire three of them. And I won't tell them about each other. because like there's a good chance one is not going to work out then i can stick with the best one and then after a week one guy just dropped off the rider and and i never heard from him again you know and then a few more days later number two he started asking all these questions and i was like i don't think that guy is understanding at all what i need i was like okay at least i have number three and he was making some progress he was sending me some something you know it was a little bit progress i was happy you know i agreed on a fair price i think yeah and then after three weeks he comes back you know emil um it's going really really well uh okay cool but there is a little problem there is something that i need to think i'm the only one who can fix it okay i was like i'm happy so fantastic that you can fix it and he's like yeah it's gonna be eight thousand extra.

9:25And I was like, that's not going to happen. So I was like, we're starting a new company and $8 ,000 is just for if you're a big corporate, fair enough. But for most entrepreneurs, that's a lot of money. So I was like, okay, I'm back to square one. And then I did, I think, a smart thing, which I advise anybody who wants to do one-dimensional coding. I sat down with pen and paper because in the beginning, I just told everybody I wanted a proposal generator. and I drew up how every screen should be looking where the button should be and I did it with pen and paper and then I redid my sketches with PowerPoint I just moved it around the screen and it's like this is how it should look and then I found a designer on Fiverr and she made like proper designs and then I took those back to Upwork and then I said I want a proposal generator it's going to look like this with step-by-step guides on how they should build it.

10:25And I found a couple of developers down in South Africa, Raymond and Tulani. We went work back and forth for several months. And in the end, I got the proposal generator and it worked really well. But it took a long, long time and that's the problem with one-dimensional coding. And I started using it and then our sales were fantastic. We sold over$1 million of bathroom renovations in the first year. And we made a lot of money as well. So it was always really good. But, you know, I was high on myself. And I was thinking, okay, you know what? We did this together. Maybe I can do it even better on my own.

11:04So I saw my part of the company. And I don't know if you... I was a little bit overconfident. I don't know if you ever experienced that. A couple of times. A couple of times. A couple of times, yes. As you know, I'm 39 soon now, and I was a little bit younger then. I've learned a lot since then. But anyway, so I sold my shares in the first company and started a competitor. And with the proposal generator, you know, we sold like crazy. I had to hire another sales rep, and it cost was a quarter of a million dollars in one month alone. And that's a lot of bathroom tiles, you know. and so everything seemed to be going the right way but you know I'm good on the forward motion you know moving fast and everything but as we grew larger I got this feeling that something is not right but I couldn't really put my finger on it until for some reason I saw that the back statement at the end of the month were always smaller than the prep the start of the month and I think I just like there's something wrong here and all the guys on on our team because we grew really fast they were I felt some of them were doing a good job but then for some reason some of them were taking a longer to complete their projects than the others and I was like it's very strange I don't really know why we're losing money here because we were selling at higher prices than before and and uh we we grew like like nobody in the industry in norway had done before so everything should be going really well but for some reason the the hours that we spent on some products were just crazy and it took me too long to see them because i got the hour registration sheets uh at the end of the month and then like when you're growing at that rate that we were growing it was just too fast and then suddenly i was facing bankruptcy with the company and you know when you have a small kid at home and a newly married wife that's not something you want to face but you know I've been I thought I've been quite smart in the beginning I registered the company as we call it a limited liability company I don't know if that's what you call it abroad yeah very similar yeah so if it goes to hell it means you're not personally liable but i knew like so we're selling really really well and and i was thinking if you just can improve the efficiency on the projects we're going to be being in on the money so i ordered some trailers that we're going to cut out all the traffic we're just going to fill it with everything we need drive out to the place and we're going to build the bathroom and go back home afterwards and and make money so i signed off on some guarantees on the trailers and i thought okay it's going to be well but before the trailers even arrived the electrical company who did their electrical work on the products call and said you know what uh you're fifty thousand dollars behind and if you don't pay now we're not going to sign off on your projects and i was like that's not optimal because that's meaning everything's going to fall apart i was like what am i going to do so i freaked out for an hour and then i was like i got the solution and can you imagine what i did joe no i can't i I wrote an email, the most expensive email I've ever written.

14:26It was six words. And it said, I guarantee the whole amount personally. Bummer, right? Because, of course, I wasn't able to turn the company around. And that email, six words, and those trailers, that became really, really expensive. And what happens is when things go south, you know, you get what a friend of mine calls love letters. and it's not the kind of low letters you want it says if you don't pay this if you don't pay that there's going to be interest late payment fees and um you know uh one thing is is is me being entrepreneur i go into this willingly i know that there is a chance that this can be risky but my wife you know she wants me to succeed but she didn't really know that i made those guarantees so I have to admit that we're still together it's a testament to her strength and when they're coming out when the bank comes after her house I was just really lucky that she was able to buy my part of the house it was hard and I like to be honest about this because I think it's something people don't talk too much about it's so critical to be honest about this stuff because a lot of times you just read the headlines like Forbes, Entrepreneur, Fast Company about these people that have this idea, the next thing they know, they're getting venture money thrown out there.

15:50The next thing they know, they're being acquired by X company or X fund. And now they're, you know, multimillionaires, in some cases, even billionaires. And you're like, oh, huh. That didn't sound that hard when I read how they did it. It's like, you know, it was kind of like nicely polished up, but, you know, that's the 0.1%. You know, the 99 point plus percent of people, it's a struggle, it's a grind. And that's why we bring people like yourself on Entrepreneurs on Fire, to be honest, so that hopefully we can learn from your successes, but also learn from your failures. And there's something I want to get into, but first, Fire Nation, we get to kick back and thank our sponsors.

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19:47Visit Franocity.com, that's F-R-A-N-O-C-I-T-Y.com to download your free Franchise Funding Guide today. So, Emil, we're back. And man, you just told a really honest story before the break. And I'm so appreciative of that because, again, Fire Nation is going to get so much truth, honesty, genuine, real value from that. And, you know, I feel like a theme kind of kept coming up is that you were held hostage by these developers a few times. And the reality is finding a good developer, it's not just hard. Like, it's really, really hard. So can you share from your experiences ways that you can tell if a developer is good or not?

20:27Since I can't read the code. So for me, everybody say they're good and I just have to, in the beginning I was like, okay, if you're good, I trust you. But you know, everybody says they're well and creating the best code. So I just found it's a really simple test. I ask for what is the software supposed to do and how it's supposed to do it. And I test it. And if it does the job, it's good enough for me. And if it doesn't do it the way it's supposed to do, it's not good software. It's really, really basic, but it works all the time. So give me kind of like a real world example of that. Like, what does that look like for somebody that's listening to this that wants to maybe test a developer's skills?

21:03Yes. So if you say, if somebody is, let's go back to the proposal generator that I made the first software I had. So if I wanted the proposal to create a good looking PDF with the pricing and everything, when I click add products and create the proposal, it should come out as a PDF that I can send to the client. That was like what we did in the beginning. but some of the guys they weren't able to send the pdf out they maybe just made it on the screen but they weren't able to actually send out the pdf as an attachment to an email or something like that and if it's really slow if you click on a button if it loads forever you know that's not something that i want in my software so yeah i think that's uh that's two things you can look at like does it do what it's actually meant to do and does it do it relatively fast let's talk about dollars and cents how much do you actually pay for a developer what advice can you give us here yes i think for for a developer you can pay like uh you can depending on the country because in norway it's super expensive you can pay like 12 uh like for in dollars about 130 maybe dollars per hour and even more but in other countries like bangladesh or india or ukraine maybe 15 16 $20 an hour and of course you also you might want to consider a fixed price fee because then you don't have to worry about how many hours they work because some people are really really fast and others are really slow I once talked to one of the best developers I'd ever met and he said like the difference in output between a good one and a great one is over 10 times and that's between a good one and a great one because yeah it's insane I was like that's I don't really understand that but he said well it's actually because you uh they take better like path to the goal like faster yeah i get it when it's kind of broken out that way and that's the same you know when uh when uh when i was after my bankruptcy i was like super depressed and i have one guy his name is anders braile he's like the best man ever he called me every day he's like get up get up come on man you're you're awesome what are you gonna do and i was like i'm gonna find a way to fix my weaknesses because no i i'm not gonna change myself that much i gotta find a way to cover myself so like i have a proposal uh generator but you know like that was a cool way to fix a problem i was like can i fix uh my other weaknesses because i must at that point i wasn't too confident so i was like maybe i can do use software for that because i'm a little bit lazy you know i don't want to i work a lot but i don't want to overwork it well i do want to move on to that i want to talk about creating software so like what are some things that we should be on the lookout for when creating software like how much you pay what should we look out for like let's kind of talk about that area of business yeah so i think uh we talked about the one-dimensional coding we're going to go to the two-dimensional right away because when i wanted to make um the software that cover all my weaknesses i understood i had to cover a lot more than the proposal generator i need a project management you know a time sheet and everything and i was like how can i do this and then i spoke to a developer i met on a facebook group and he said like you should start with what you have which is the proposal generator and i was like okay i need a signature part on that and he said like okay we can fix that and he said why don't you just buy the source code for it and i was like what do you mean i'm like why don't you just buy the code like what do you mean buy the code and he said well you just buy the code you need ready you can buy code for everything like if you need the signature part, you can get that.

24:41If you need a project management module, boom, we can buy it out for you as well. And that's how we built the rest of our application. Because there's a lot of developers out there who are sitting on software that's just what you need. And they are willing to sell it. And the reason why they're willing to sell it is because they're just like us entrepreneurs who are onto our next shiny object or something like that. And then it's very easy to click control C or command C, control V and copy paste it. And if they make$200 or$1 ,000 or whatever, it's easy money for them if you're living in Bangladesh and makes 20 bucks an hour.

25:20So Farah Nation, I hope you're really listening and learning from everything Emil's saying about some lessons that he's learned the hard way and how we can maybe move forward in a more informed direction when we go down the developer slash software route. And Emil, you've shared a lot of awesome information today. You shared a story that you really got deep into the weeds about struggles and successes and failures and depression. So what is the one thing that you really want to make sure that our listeners get from our entire conversation today? If you're looking to build software, there's somebody out there who has what you need.

25:58And whether that's buying software code that you can implement or if you actually can work together with somebody. because you do that, I think, with ClickFunnels, don't you, John? Yes, big time. And that's basically, they have a solution. And I think you can do that with any software company, maybe not Microsoft or Amazon or whatever, but if somebody is up and coming, and if you go to them and say, hey, I got a following of like a thousand or a million or whatever people, can I promote your software? And I guarantee you'll get like 10 to 50 % of the sales. And I'm not talking like of the profits, I'm talking about the sales recurring.

26:33Because if you have the software, you want more customers because it doesn't cost you any more to add them. So I think that's like a super smart way. Find somebody who has the software. So Emil, you've shared so much awesome stuff. If Fire Nation wanted to connect with you, learn more from what you have going on, what is the best way for that to happen? We have a software. It's called Yellow Jersey. It's like a one-stop for everything you need if you run a company. But if you're over 100 people or big in manufacturing, it's not for you. but if you're a company less than 100 people that are looking to grow because we like people who like to grow and scale, then we're the right place to come and check us out.

27:15It's yellowjersey.io forward slash fire and you'll get three months off on our yearly subscription. So come and check us out and we will help you grow. Awesome. Now say that one more time. What was that URL? Yellowjersey.io forward slash fire. Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with And you've been hanging out with E-E and J-L-D today. So keep up that heat. Head over to eofire.com, type Emil, that's E-M-I-L, in the search bar and his show notes page will pop up with everything we talked about today, that URL that he shared and so much more. So Emil, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation today.

27:53For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value bomb content was brought to you by Emil. And Fire Nation, if you've ever thought about creating a podcast of your own, The Podcast Journal is for you. It is gorgeous. It is faux leather, and it will guide you step by step in the creation and launch of your podcast in 50 days. Visit thepodcastjournal.com, and I'll catch you there, or I'll catch you on the flip side. Franocity has helped hundreds of people leave unfulfilling jobs, invest in recession-resilient businesses and creates legacy income for their families through franchising.

28:32Get started today with Franocity's franchise funding guide, packed with real world strategies to launch your business without draining your savings. Visit Franocity.com. That's F-R-A-N-O-C-I-T-Y.com. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies, build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software, say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today.