How the Media Industry SHOULD Work for Growing Businesses and Entrepreneurs with Omar Hamdi

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation! JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire! Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like My First Million. Today, we'll be breaking down how the media industry should work for growing businesses and entrepreneurs. To drop these value bombs, I have brought to Omar Hamdi and the EO Fire Studios. Omar is the founder of the world's only pay-on-results PR firm, Pathos Communications, payonresultspr.com. He's a media personality who's worked on British Academy Award-winning shows and contributed four books.

0:39In today's foundation, we'll talk about the pay on results PR firm strategy. We'll talk about why most PR agencies don't care about small businesses. Can PR actually achieve ROI or is it just a vanity project and so much more? And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Omar and our sponsors. Sales Evangelist, hosted by my friend Donald Kelly, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Each week, Donald interviews the world's best sales experts, successful sellers, sales leaders, and entrepreneurs who share their strategies to succeed in sales right now.

1:16A recent episode you should definitely check out is the five ways to do daily outbound with LinkedIn. Listen to Sales Evangelist wherever you get your podcasts. Hostinger is among the top web hosting and website creation brands in the world. See for yourself. Head to hostinger.com slash onfire and use code ONFIRE for an exclusive 10 % discount. That's hostinger.com slash ONFIRE and the code ONFIRE. Omar, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. I believe that most of us are not meant to be successful. We're meant to be average.

1:57So I've got this theory called survival of the average. So we're told that we're descendants or we're products of evolution, that we're a product of the survival of the fittest. But actually, I'm not sure that's true, because if you think about caveman society, the most successful guy, the guy who had the biggest cave with the most firewood, he didn't live very long, because as soon as he got the biggest cave and the most firewood, someone clubbed him to death, because there was no police. So I actually think all through human history up until a couple of hundred years ago, you've survived by being average or maybe just a little bit above average, otherwise known as middle class.

2:43So anyone who wants to be really successful is fighting against millions of years of evolution. And that's why it's so hard. Fire Nation, that is a little food for thought. I hope you kind of chew on that one and see where you come out. Very interesting, Omar. And as I mentioned in the introduction, we're going to be talking today about how the media industry should work for growing businesses and entrepreneurs. And that's you, Fire Nation. You are an entrepreneur on fire. But before we dive into some specifics on the media industry, let's hear about the origin story of your company, Pathos Communications.

3:21So the origin story starts with my origin story. So before starting Pathos, I worked in the media for almost 10 years in the UK. My last job was as a TV host on BBC One, the TV network. Before that, I did bits of writing. I contributed to four books, two of which were shortlisted for Time's Book of the Year, did stand-up for a while, produced shows, presented radio. And then five years ago now, I thought, this is really useful knowledge. It's a really useful experience. And I did what a lot of media people do. And I became a PR consultant. And then immediately I realized that there's a lot of cynicism and mistrust towards PR people.

4:08I think PR Week, a UK PR industry magazine, did a survey and found that PR people are one of the least trusted professions. Politicians are more trusted than PR people. I mean, it's quite an achievement. And then everyone I spoke to said, look, I'd love some PR, but I'll pay you after I'm published. And because I was naive, because I'd never worked for a PR agency, I didn't say, no, no, no, that's not how PR works. You have to sign a retainer agreement for 12 months. I said, that sounds quite fair. And that's what we're all about. That's why our domain is payonresultspr.com. We're all about payonresultspr.

4:51And that's where Pathos came from. And I want to get into that specific topic more right now because Pathos is actually the only pay-on-results PR firm. And I want to talk about why that is even in more detail and what's wrong with the industry as a whole. A lot of people are conditioned by what's normal, what's common. And, you know, I've tried recruiting people who have come from, you know, big name PR firms, you know, the big ones that charge, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a month per client. And I've thought, wow, this person is going to be perfect. They're going to help us level up.

5:34But actually, the culture is so different. I remember once we had a lady who was super, super experienced, both in PR as well as being a journalist. And she had a call with a client and the client was talking about all their ideas. And then she came off the call and she said, oh, so do you want me to get this client published now? And I said, well, yeah. I mean, what else are we doing here? Are we just chatting to people for the sake of it? So I think there's just that norm in the industry. It's a very glamorous profession, I think, for a lot of people. It's not as cool as being in the media and being famous, but it's adjacent to that.

6:12So a lot of really smart people come out of college, come out of university, work in PR. And the norm of the industry is you pay us a bit of money every month and we take you to lunch and we'll see what happens. And I just don't think there's really that obsession with the customer and the obsession with the actual size of the market. So something that I think about a lot, there are 33 million SMBs, 33 million small businesses just in America. And our clients are from all around the world, but most of them are from the US. 33 million small businesses, every one of them could be our customer. And I don't think that's typical for PR agencies.

6:51They usually don't think that an electrician in New Haven, Connecticut should be their client. But one of our clients is an electrician from New Haven, Connecticut. And we love that. So it's just a very, very different way of looking at the world and looking at the market for PR. Fire Nation, I hope the wheels are spinning in your mind right now, because what Omar has done is he's decided to be disruptive in his industry, not just to fall into line and to do what everything everybody else is doing and they've been doing for years and years and years. He came in and said, hey, what is the right way to do things?

7:26What's the fair way to do things? And oh, by the way, it's also a different way of doing things. That's actually a bonus because now I'm going to be disrupting an industry that needs disruption. All of these great companies that we hear about, they are all disruptors. Netflix, Amazon, Uber, fill in the blank. They are disrupting the status quo. They're making things happen. I mean, heck, 11 years ago, everybody was telling me, John, doing a daily podcast is stupid. Nobody will listen. Do it weekly like everybody else. So when I heard like everybody else, I said, yes, I am not going to do it like everybody else.

8:02Omar is not doing it like everybody else. And you shouldn't either, Fire Nation. How can you be disruptive? And Omar, you're known to make bold statements. You've made a few in your lifetime. In fact, you've already made a few on this episode. And I think a few more are coming because this following one is no different. It's a bold statement. You believe the world's leading PR agencies don't care about small businesses. They don't care about entrepreneurs. What do you mean by this? And can you give a couple examples? Thank you for saying I'm controversial. I think that's a good thing. It's a good thing to be controversial and opinionated.

8:38We're both passionate, opinionated people, like I think a lot of the people listening are. But I don't think that's controversial. So if you look at the leading and if we define leading as biggest, you know, there are the big four in PR, big four agencies, big four firms, just like in accounting. There are the big four. And I don't think anyone would doubt that the big four accounting firms don't really care about whether they're doing the accounts for, you know, the taco truck or the bodega on the high street. And it's the same with PR. You know, the biggest PR firms are not they do not care about SMBs.

9:19And that's their decision. It's their business to run how they want. And then you think, well, who does care about SMBs? And the answer is the Wild West. So you've got a lot of former journalists or people who've just seen it as a money making thing. you know maybe one day they're crypto gurus the next day they're you know tiktok consultants oh well let's try pr i've heard that pr makes money uh let's be a pr consultant so it's the wild west and what what it means is that small businesses who are by the way the most exciting businesses the growing businesses generally just stay away from the media and that's why you can open uh the Wall Street Journal or even another publication, say like Business Insider or Forbes.

10:07And there isn't that much. There's a lot of the same coverage. There's a lot on Elon. There's a lot on Jeff Bezos. There's a lot on the big names. But there are 33 million small businesses in the US. How many issues of Forbes would it take to tell even 1 % of those stories? So I don't think it's controversial that the big guys don't care. It's just, it's a different line of business. And hopefully that'll change because, you know, I'm not here to sell, but, you know, I'm a big believer that PR and media attention is a means to an end. It's not just something that you do to make you feel good for five minutes.

10:51There are cheaper and easier ways to feel good for five minutes than hiring a PR agency. But it's a means to an end. You know, having that media coverage, it can help with lead generation, with lead conversion, with closing sales, with raising investment. So it's actually a real sort of, it's almost like a, you know, a social issue or certainly an economic issue that we need to open up the doors of the media to small business. But it's very tough because on the other side, if you're a journalist who is targeted at producing 10 articles a day, when your dad, who was a journalist, was targeted on producing one article a day, you don't have time to go to the local business networking breakfast and have your donut and find the most exciting businesses.

11:43You just don't have time. So there's so much pressure in so many directions, but definitely it shouldn't end up the way it has ended up historically, which is PR is for the big boys. The media is for the big boys. That's not right. A lot of good stuff there, Fire Nation. And on the topic of being controversial, I'm a big believer in the phrase, love me or hate me because there's no money in the middle. So Fire Nation, you can't be scared of taking a stand, of doing something that may not be loved by everybody. Because listen, if you're a people pleaser, if you're trying to please everybody, you're literally going to please nobody because you're just going to just blend into the background of nothingness.

12:23You've got to believe in something with passion. Like Omar said, have passion, be passionate about it, believe in it, and go all in. And we have a lot to talk about around this topic when we get back from thanking our sponsors. The new year is upon us, and that means new goals, more growth, and upgrading your day-to-day workflow. While most sales folk are stuck in the mud of manual scheduling, digging into data, and tracking down leads, let me share with you a better way to win so you can crush your Q1. The new HubSpot Sales Hub is smart sales software for today's multitasking reps. It's built to help you manage every stage of your sales pipeline with ease.

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15:58I mean, for all the reasons you just mentioned, I mean, there's a lot of good reasons to have your name in print, to have your name be on some great publication, some website, to be featured X, Y, or Z places. I mean, it's opened a lot and a lot of doors for me over the years. I have a media kit for a reason. I link to all of these things. They're really cool. They're really important. They can be very beneficial when done correctly. But you believe a lot of people have no vision or goal when it comes to their personal PR. So in your opinion, what is the point of PR for small businesses and entrepreneurs?

16:33And how do we get that vision and that goal? Well, I think the first thing I'll say is it's easier to answer the question in the negative. So what isn't the point? I definitely think unless you're super rich, it shouldn't be just because it makes you feel good or just because it's something to send to your mom or your wife or your husband or whatever. So unless you're really super rich, there has to be a purpose. I also think the purpose shouldn't be to aim for the best case scenario, which is also the most unlikely scenario, which is an article gets published about you. it goes super viral. It's reprinted everywhere.

17:15Your phone is ringing. Your inbox is blowing up. Your LinkedIn is blowing up. And 24 hours later, you've got 50 new customers. That's a really bad reason to invest in PR because it does happen, but it's very, very rare. And when we've got clients who we work with every month for years, that might happen once or maybe twice. So most of the time it doesn't happen. So what does happen? What is a good reason to invest in PR? I think if you've got a clear use case and a good PR consultant will be as comfortable talking about the purpose of PR, the use of PR, as they will be talking about the PR itself.

17:58So good uses of PR. It can help you with lead generation. We've got clients who have quoted their media coverage in their Google ads and their click-through rate has doubled. That's a really good reason to invest in PR. Whatever you're spending on Google ads, suddenly you're getting double the clicks. That's pretty cool. If you're trying to nurture leads, if you've got 100 or 1 ,000 or 10 ,000 or 100 ,000 people who are subscribing to your newsletter or signing up for the free consultation, but they're not signing. You just feel like that you need something to turbocharge that process to make them think, wow, these are the people I want to work with.

18:40Send me the contract. I'll sign it right now. Lead nurturing through media can be really, really powerful. I think if you're looking for investment, this is another really, really good use case. If you're saying, write me a check for a million or$10 million for my idea, for my business plan, or for my small business that has a handful of customers. I think that FOMO, that fear of missing out, is something that really works with investors. And we've got a lot of clients who've hired us just when they're going into a funding round. Everything from seed stage through to IPO, the whole life cycle, it always helps with funding.

19:18Another use case, another purpose for PR that a lot of people don't think about is recruitment. Because I think a lot of businesses get to a certain stage with B players who are motivated by an inspirational leader. And then you get to a point where you think, I need some A players. I need that rockstar COO or that rockstar CFO or that rockstar sales manager or whatever it is. And usually A players, rockstars, want to work for other rockstars. I don't know about you, John, but I can speak for myself. If I got an email from Elon Musk now saying, come and work for me, I would drop everything and I'd work for Elon Musk.

19:58Because it's Elon Musk. I'm going to learn so much. One year with Elon Musk will give me so much ROI for the rest of my career compared to whatever else I could do with Pathos. And Pathos is doing very well, but that's how much I rate you, Elon. So feel free to email me. So these are all examples. And like I say, a good PR consultant will be just as obsessed with what happens after the article is published as they are about getting the article published. Because if it's just about getting an article published, it's just another URL on the internet. That's not going to change anything. It needs to do something in the real world.

20:40And those are the things to always focus on. Fire Nation, there's a lot of great points and use cases that Omar just shared. So I hope those wheels are continuing to spin in your minds about all this, but I want to get real specific. I mean, you've gone specific on a few things, Omar, but let's talk about PR actually achieving ROI and getting that real return on investment with maybe a couple specific case studies that you've seen over the years. Because you did mention, if you're really rich, I mean, and it makes you feel better, this could be a vanity project and that could be a reason enough for it.

21:13But let's be honest, most of us, we're really counting our dollars. We're counting our cents. We're making sure that our business is healthy and is going to survive for the long term. We're getting that runway really far out there. So let's talk about some situations that you've experienced where public relations and PR in general can actually achieve ROI. Maybe let's give it an order. Let's sort of go through a customer journey step by step. And I'll think of examples of clients who've got really, really good ROI. So I think top of the funnel, if you're doing a lot of outreach, if you're doing a lot of ads, if you're sending a lot of LinkedIn requests and OK, the mailing list is growing, the LinkedIn connections are growing, the ads are getting impressions, but my bank account isn't really feeling the love.

22:01that's a great point in the process to say this is what the media says about me this is what Bloomberg says about me this is what Business Insider says about me because that can that can really help you get those replies to your outreach turn those LinkedIn connections into requests for proposals and really get your ads creating not just clicks but also conversions okay so that's the top of the funnel. I think the next step would be in terms of conversion from sort of cold traffic through to actual qualified leads. So this seems so simple, just having an as featured on, and I'm sure a lot of the people listening, you know, if they've been on this podcast, I'm sure the first thing they do as featured on Entrepreneurs on Fire, just having an as featured on page on your website or even putting it on the homepage.

22:56There was one customer actually that I spoke to where they were getting, I won't say too much about their business because then it might give it away, but they were getting a lot of complaints. A lot of people were signing up for it, but then not really following through on the process and then asking for refunds. And then all they did is they created that as featured on banner on their homepage with, I think three or four publications. It was, you know, we'd only worked with them for a couple of months. And suddenly their refunds and their complaints went to zero. So the product didn't change.

23:29But people were going into the sign-up process having already decided that this is good. It must be good because the media says it's good. Look at those quotes. This is like a movie trailer. It's like a movie poster. This must be good. So they're not looking at it through a critical eye. They're just consuming the product and enjoying it and seeing how great it is. Another example, I think, is if you're doing lots of pitches, but those pitches are not successful. So something that can be really, really powerful is in your pitch deck, in your proposals, if there's a page, say, this is what the media says.

24:08And you've got three, four, five media logos with quotes, quotes, quotes, quotes, quotes. It makes it very hard for people to say, well, how do we know you're going to do what you say you're going to do? How can we can we talk about the price? Because no one talks to rock stars like that. And I think what I just said really applies to even more so to to fundraising and investments. I think another thing further down the funnel is in terms of reactivating clients. You know, there's the guy who did five thousand dollars worth of business with two years ago. and yep, he always opens your emails, but wouldn't it be great if you could do$5 ,000 a year or$5 ,000 a month with that guy?

24:52Tell that guy that you were just in the news. That could be the difference between how he views you now and how he needs to view you to move you up into being a regular engagement. So those are all sort of examples just going through my memory of what I've seen from different clients. I love that reactivation idea, Fire Nation. I bet maybe some of you are thinking right now about how that can apply to somebody in your pipeline or, again, past pipeline. Now, Omar, give us one key takeaway from our entire conversation today that you really want to make sure our listeners, Fire Nation, walk away with.

25:27Every single business in the world should be thinking about the media. Every single business. You know, we've got clients who are we have one client that's an 18 billion dollar government owned energy company in Asia. We have other clients that are solopreneurs. A lot of our clients are solopreneurs. So every single business should be thinking about the media. So whoever is managing your PR for you, whether it's something that you do yourself, it's someone that is on your team who's managing it or someone external, whoever's running your PR for you. Make sure they are as obsessed with what happens after the article is published as they are with getting the article published.

26:13Otherwise, there is really no point. And Omar, if Fire Nation wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do just that? The best thing to do is to go on payonresultspr.com. That's payonresultspr.com. And you can book a meeting with my team. When you book in, there is a section for anything else we need to know about the meeting. Please, please, please say EO Fire or Entrepreneurs on Fire. We've got a special offer on there. We're going to do something extra, especially in the run-up to the holidays. We're going to do something extra for anyone who comes through Entrepreneurs on Fire.