How to Build a Course Ladder Into Your Business with Danny Iny

0:01Light that spark fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like Gold Digger Podcast. Today, we'll be breaking down how to build a course ladder into your business. To drop these value bombs, I brought Danny Innie into EO Fire Studios. Danny is the CEO of Mira C, an author of numerous books about online business and online courses, including Teacher Gift, Effortless, and Guide on the Side. Today, Fire Nation will talk about successful online courses, who can be successful, what's working now, how AI has changed the landscape and the course ladder, and so much more.

0:41And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Danny and our sponsors. Success Story, hosted by my friend Scott D. Clary, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Success Story features Q &A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, and conversation on sales, marketing, business, startups, and entrepreneurship. In a recent episode, Scott brings Kate Bradley on the show, founder and CEO of Lately.ai, to discuss the best ways to use AI to create content. Listen to Success Story wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12Ever thought about giving a TEDx talk? It's one of the most powerful ways to share your message with the world. And four-time TEDx speaker, Taylor Conroy from Thought Leader can help you get there. Visit thought-leader.com slash fire to join Taylor's free training where he teaches you how to land a TEDx talk and spread your message to millions. Danny, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Hey, Fire Nation. What I think is true about becoming very successful that I think a lot of the world disagrees with is if you look around, everyone's looking for, you know, give me the seven tips, give me the number one thing.

1:55And what I've found is that one of the most important skills you can build as an entrepreneur is the ability to sit with ambiguity. Just to sit with, I don't know, I'm not sure. I need to play with that for a while. And not trying to rush past that into, okay, what's the quickest answer I can implement right away without thinking about it too much? Being able to do that goes a super long way. Fire Nation, this isn't Danny's first rodeo. And I've brought him back on to talk about how to build a course ladder into your business. And Danny, frankly, a lot of people in my audience, Fire Nation, they see those who are successful with online courses, and they think, that could never be me.

2:39But I want to break it down. Who specifically can be successful with online courses? So it's harder than it used to be, right? It used to be anyone can hang up a shingle, say I'm an expert in fill in the blank. And it didn't really matter if it was true. Right. And that isn't the case anymore. And I think that's a good thing. You have to have some legit expertise in your subject area. Now, when I say legit expertise, I don't mean you have to have seven PhDs or 14 published books or be the world's leading authority on the topic. Of course, if you are, you know, more power to you, that's great. But you have to know enough that there are people struggling with a problem or desiring an outcome that you can legitimately help.

3:25And how much more than them you need to know depends on two things, right? One is how much do you need to know to be able to legitimately help them? And then two, how sensitive is the subject area, right? So if you're working with people on their health, if you're working with children, then the gap between what you know and what they know has to be a lot bigger than if you're working with something where the ramifications are not as significant. You've always got to know more than they do. But the good news is that a lot of people who've got some life experience, who've been out in the world, who've done things, there are probably things that you know enough about that other people don't that you can help them plot a course to get from where they are to a better outcome.

4:08And fundamentally, what people want to pay for is a shortcut, right? They want an outcome in less time, at less cost, and with less risk of failure. And if you can teach them how to get there with one or more of those things, then you can absolutely be successful with an online course. Fire Nation, on top of all that Danny just shared, I just want to reiterate, if you can really drill down and find a way to create the number one solution to a real problem in this world, you are going to win at some level. Now, of course, on how big a level that is, is applying some of these strategies that we'll be talking about here today.

4:49But man, it's so important because like Danny said, people are looking for a shortcut. They want to get there faster, but they've got to get there and arrive at the right place. And are you delivering that? So it's 2024, Danny. What we want to know is what's working now, today. What sort of courses do people want to buy this year? Building off of this idea that what people want is a shortcut to get to an outcome, right? The outcome is always going to be dependent on them being able to do something that they weren't able to do before. And so the question is, well, how do we get good at things? How do we develop skills?

5:31How do we become competent at something? And the answer is not by reading about it or watching videos about it. There's that scene in the beginning of The Karate Kid where Daniel LaRusso is trying to teach himself karate from a book. And he gets his butt kicked. right because that doesn't work we learn through three steps first consuming new information that's a first step but then applying what we've learned and third getting feedback about what's working and what's not and you know there's always feedback when you try to do things in the world it's just that sometimes that feedback is super un-nuanced and unhelpful i like to joke that if i decide i want to learn how to skateboard right i don't need a teacher there'll be feedback but the feedback will be from concrete and gravity and it's not going to be very nuanced or helpful or pleasant.

6:18But when you have a teacher, a coach, a guide, someone who can say, okay, this part is working well, do this part a little bit differently. That's where the shortcut really comes in. So the kinds of courses that people are eager to pay for significant money, right? Money that is interesting to the creator are the courses that combine those three elements. So you give them the information, you give them an opportunity to apply it, and a way for you to see what they're doing and give them feedback so they can get better. And if you can build those three pieces in, there are a lot of ways to do that, of course.

6:51But if you can build those three pieces in, then we're not talking about like a bargain basement course that people may or may not want to spend 20 bucks for. We're talking about a course that people will spend hundreds, if not thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, depending on the niche and the outcome that you're promising. I love this process, Fire Nation. consume new information, apply what's learned, and then get feedback on what's working and what's not. So powerful. And before we move on, Danny, why don't you just give us one example of a client of yours that's recently done this successfully?

7:25Sure. So I just exchanged emails right before hopping on this call with a client of mine. Her name is Susan O 'Connor. And she teaches people, she teaches writers how to break into the video game industry, right? So whenever you're playing a video game, there's a story, there's a narrative, there's a way that the gameplay kind of holds together. Somebody wrote that. And that's actually a really fun and also a really lucrative career for people who are writers and for people who love games. And this is also a market that typically does not like to spend a lot of money, right? It's all the tropes about like, you know, starving artists and writers who don't like to invest and all that kind of stuff.

8:01Well, she has built a phenomenally successful course, like, you know, multiple six figures a year kind of course that teaches people how to do this and how to do it really well, because she goes way beyond, well, here's some information or some videos, you watch it on your own, good luck, right? There are exercises, there is work, there is feedback. And that's what results in actual results where these people land really interesting jobs and careers. And that is an outcome people are happy to pay for. Fire Nation, I love examples. Danny just gave one. I hope you can kind of see a possibility of you identifying your niche, the problem that you're going to solve, the solution that you're going to create in a meaningful way.

8:40And we have a lot more to talk about around this topic, AI, the course ladder, and more when we get back from thanking our sponsors. Personalized support has quickly become an expectation from customers everywhere. They want help and they want it now, but many businesses aren't equipped with the right tools to help them deliver. And that means unhappy customers and frustrated service reps. So why not get a customer service solution that can help your reps excel and give your customers the best experience possible? The new AI-powered Service Hub from HubSpot is a better way to do service and success.

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9:48Do you have a message inside that you know is meant to be shared with the world? Giving a TEDx talk is one of the most powerful ways to share your message with the world, and Thought Leader can help you get there. Thought Leader is a speaker coaching company that has helped over 550 and counting coaches, speakers, entrepreneurs, authors, and experts land TEDxTalks. Thought Leader is not affiliated with TED or TEDx, but they're able to get these results because their founder, Taylor Conroy, is a four-time TEDx speaker himself and past EOFire guest. You might be thinking a TEDxTalk sounds great, but where do you start?

10:20Taylor has put together a free training that's going to teach you how to land a TEDxTalk in as little as 90 days. Join Taylor to learn exactly what TEDx organizers are looking for in their speakers, how to write a talk that goes viral once it goes online, and more. Visit thought-leader.com slash fire. Join Taylor for this free training and get your message out of your head, out of your heart, and out into the world where it belongs. That's thought-leader.com slash fire. Danny, we're back, and AI is all the rage. People are talking about it left, right, center. So let's talk about how AI has actually changed the landscape and possibly some examples.

11:01It's been really interesting to see what's happened with AI. And there's the changes that have happened because of people using it the right way. And the bigger changes, frankly, that have happened because of people using it the wrong way. So the right way to use AI, really straightforward. I mean, pick your tool. It can be ChatGPT. It can be Bing. It can be Copilot. It can be whatever, right? It doesn't matter. But fundamentally, you want to treat it like a super hardworking, never gets tired assistant that's only moderately competent. So think about how you would work with someone like that.

11:36You'd give them super detailed instructions about what you want, and you'd always check their work. And as long as you use AI that way, it can save you a ton of time. It can add richness and depth to what you're creating. It's all good. The problems come in when people, and there are always people who are going to look for the loopholes. There are always bad actors in every industry when people do not use it the way they should. And they ask the AI to do things that they're not really capable of or qualified to do. They can't look at the end result and be like, yeah, this is absolutely good. I've got to change this.

12:07I've got to fix that. They just don't know. And what they're doing is they're using this technology to pump out large volumes of very mediocre content. And what this does is it floods the industry in just about every niche with content that is not so great, not so helpful, sold for bargain basement kind of prices. And it creates a downward pressure on the value of information globally. What people are looking for now is not more information. They're looking for a filtering of what is the information that I can trust. and they're looking for what will be the package that will help me go beyond just the information the way we talked about earlier in terms of actual application and feedback.

12:53And so AI has made it really important for you to showcase what is unique about you, your story, your journey, your approach, and also make it clear what people get as part of your course that is not just the information, not just the explanation, but that will actually help them get to where they want to go. And what would be a couple examples of that that you've seen as add-ons or bonuses or just cool ways of structuring courses that make people realize that that is the case? Well, it comes down to how people are going to do the application and how people are going to get the feedback, right?

13:28So when it comes to doing the application, that can be theoretical exercises. You know, you're going to fill out this worksheet and so forth. Or it can be really practical stuff. You're going to go out and do this thing in your business, in your life, out in the world. And then in terms of getting feedback, how is that going to work? And there are a lot of creative ways you can do it, right? If people are filling out exercises and worksheets, they can send it in, a coach on your team, or you can look it over and give them some feedback. You can set up peer feedback structures where you put people in pairs or in pods and you give them instructions around how to review and give feedback to the work they're doing.

14:03You can have people role play together. But you want to get really creative about how you give people the opportunity to take what they're learning from you and actually do something with it and then get feedback about what's right and what's not and what can be improved. Fire Nation, powerful things to think about. And Danny, I want to dive into course ladder because you created something called a course ladder. I'd love to hear more. When you think about the kind of total structure of most expertise-driven businesses, it's like a really long ladder with a rung at the top and a rung at the bottom and nothing in between.

14:44So let's say you're an author. At the very bottom, there is your book, which is very inexpensive. And the very top is the deal with the publisher. Maybe they'll pay you$10 ,000,$50 ,000,$100 ,000 for a book deal, but that happens very infrequently. it, right? Maybe you're a coach, so you're producing a bunch of free content. That's the very bottom of the ladder. And at the top, you want people to pay you a lot of money to work with them really closely over time. And when you have that ladder with nothing in between, well, the visual makes it clear, it's really hard to jump from the bottom to the top.

15:14And so you've got a lot of people who might like what's on the bottom. They're like, I want to go to the next level, but I can't reach all the way up there. It's too far. And that's what a course allows you to do. It allows you to add rungs to the ladder. So the fantasy a lot of people have is I'm going to create my flagship course. I'm going to set up my automagic funnel where, you know, I'm spending a dollar and getting$18 back within a week and it's just going to run on autopilot. That doesn't work so well in real life. What does work really well is creating something that can be a bridge between the free or very inexpensive stuff and the very high end involved stuff working with you.

15:52And that can be one course. It can be several courses. But basically what you want to do is take that whole ladder and say, well, how many rungs do I need to throw in there for people to be able to climb from one to the next really comfortably and really easily and for it to be profitable for you at each step? So you have something coming up that's pretty exciting that I really want to do a deep dive into because there's multiple levels to this. There's a movie. There's a master class. There's a lot of stuff that Fire Nation, like let's be honest, Fire Nation. If you're enjoying this, you want to learn more, you want to consume more content, and Danny's great at doing just that.

16:30So tell us about what's upcoming and what Fire Nation can do if they really want to be somebody who is taking this information we're talking about here on this podcast and expound upon it. Broad context, once a year, we do a big enrollment into our flagship course building program. It's called the Course Freedom Formula this year. It's going to be huge, really excited about it. And in the spirit of the course ladder, we don't just expect people to go from zero to 60. We want to give them different opportunities to learn more about what we do and how we work and how it can help them fit into their business to see if this is the thing that they want for themselves.

17:05So we've got two big rocks that I think will be really interesting to members of Fire Nation. The first is we made a full-length movie. We spent the last three years producing this and shares expert insights from people who've been super successful creating and marketing online courses. It also follows the journey of 14 course creators going from zero to launching their first course. And this movie is not publicly available, but we're going to be doing private screenings for people who sign up and Fire Nation is invited to grab one of those spots. It doesn't cost anything. Those screenings are going to be happening in the range of May 7th through 9th.

17:42So they're going to be able to go and register for a time that works for them. And then on the back of that, I'm doing three hour long deep dive masterclasses on the course building journey and what goes into doing it really, really well. So this is a must attend for anyone who's really serious about I want to add an online course to my business mix and I want to do it this year, preferably by the end of the summer. And these, again, are completely free. I'm doing it at two different times on May. 15th and 16th. So people can head on over, see which date and time works better for them, reserve their spot.

18:18It doesn't cost anything. They've just got to put down their name and say, I want to be there. Fire Nation, I want to reiterate, this doesn't cost anything. This is something that you can consume just like you're consuming this podcast for free. And then of course, once you go through this great free content, you may want to take that next step and really get serious about this process. And if you want to learn more, the link is eofire.com slash ladder. That's eofire.com slash ladder, L-A-D-D-E-R. So Danny, keep on chatting, brother. What do we really need to know about this and this process? All of the content that we're going to be releasing, the movie, the masterclasses, which in aggregate, that's many hours of content and training.

19:05The reason we put all that together is that kind of like you said at the beginning of our conversation, there are a lot of people who see experts out there launching online courses. They see them selling it. It looks like the numbers are big, but they're like, there's a disconnect. I don't see how I can get from here to there. And so all of the stuff we're putting out is really designed to demystify that whole process, to give you the very concrete requirements, ingredients, step by step of what goes into traversing that journey. What goes into designing and launching your own online course? How long does it really take?

19:43What is the process that you need to go through? How can you get from literally zero to within two or three months? And that's like at a comfortable schedule. It's not killing yourself, right? Two or three months, you've got people who have signed up for your course. They have given you money. Their lives are being transformed. And you're laying the foundation for an engine that can really change the trajectory of your business and your life. And I know that sounds hyperbolic, but I've seen it happen over and over again. And so we're just putting it all out there and it's free because we know that for some people there's going to be enough there.

20:17They're going to be like, I'm inspired. I'm excited. I've got what I need. I'm going to run with it. And for a lot more, you know, if you want to do anything that is significant and material in your life, you're like, I'm going to get some help. And, you know, I'm biased, but I'm also right. There's no one better to help people achieve this outcome than us. And we're excited to help a lot of people turn this dream into a reality in the coming months. How to build a course ladder into your business. Fire Nation, get pumped up. EOfire.com slash ladder is where you go to learn more, to take that next step.

20:54And again, it's all free, this initial process. EOfire.com slash ladder. Danny, bring us home. What's the one takeaway you want to make sure our listeners get from our conversation today? Well, definitely that everyone has a gift that is valuable to teach to others, right? Everyone can relate to a time where someone came to you with a problem. They came to you with a challenge. And you were able to help them not just by sheer force of luck and serendipity and whatever, but by drawing on the things that you have learned how to do over the years. Well, packaging up that knowledge and that know-how and making it available to people, it's an opportunity for you to help those around you.

21:37And frankly, it's a responsibility. When you know something that can help other people and you keep it to yourself, there's something wrong with that picture. So I believe it's incumbent on all of us to recognize and teach our gifts. Fire Nation, you're the average. Of the five people you spend the most time with, you've been hanging out with DI and JLD today, so keep up that heat. For links to everything we talked about, visit eofire.com. Just type Danny in the search bar. The show notes page will pop right up. And one more time, eofire.com slash ladder. eofire.com slash ladder. Danny, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation.

22:15For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Hey, Fire Nation, a huge thank you to our sponsors and Danny for sponsoring today's episode. And Fire Nation, what can 4 ,000 of the world's most successful entrepreneurs teach you? How about how to achieve financial freedom and fulfillment? My first traditionally published book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, is a revolutionary 17-step roadmap that will lead you to the lifestyle you've been dreaming about. This book took me 10 years of accumulating the genius of the world's top entrepreneurs, and you can get it all in one place when you visit UncommonSuccessBook.com.

22:53I'll catch you there or on the flip side. success story hosted by my friend scott d clary is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals success story features q a sessions with successful business leaders keynote presentations and conversation on sales marketing business startups and entrepreneurship in a recent episode scott brings kate bradley on the show founder and ceo of lately.ai to discuss the best ways to use ai to create content listen to success story wherever you get your podcasts. Ever thought about giving a TEDx talk? It's one of the most powerful ways to share your message with the world.

23:28And four-time TEDx speaker, Taylor Conroy from Thought Leader can help you get there. Visit thought-leader.com slash fire to join Taylor's free training where he teaches you how to land a TEDx talk and spread your message to millions.