How to Create a Cult-Following in an Unattached World with Jason McGowan and Sawyer Hemsley: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:01Light that spark fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire the only daily show interviewing the world's top entrepreneurs seven days a week. Today, we're pulling a classic episode from the archives, and we'll be breaking down how to create a cult following in an unattached world. To drop these value bombs, I brought Jason McGowan and Sawyer Hemsley in the EO Fire Studios. Jason and Sawyer founded Crumble Cookies in 2017, now the fastest growing franchise and second largest cookie company in the nation with 260 stores in 36 states in just four years. In today's Fire Nation, we'll talk about how you should not be afraid of going after something, even if you're not experienced, how to connect with your audience on a personal level, and do not skimp on quality of service and product and oh so much more.

0:45And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Sawyer, Jason, and our sponsors. Over 41 ,000 businesses have future proved their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com slash fire. Sawyer, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. What's up, Fire Nation? This is Sawyer. Now, something I believe that has made our brand successful, me personally successful, is to not be afraid to go after something, even if you're not experienced.

1:35Now, in the cookie world, we had nothing, no knowledge, not as much as we would have liked diving into the cookie world, but we weren't afraid. And so, I think a lot of people may think you can't do something because you don't actually have, you know, an expertise in that field or that career, but anything can be learned. And I think because me and my business partner, Jason, weren't afraid to just go after it. And we had a dream and a vision. It really made us successful. And through all of our failures, we found that success. Well, Fire Nation, you just heard Sawyer mentioned his partner, Jason.

2:13And we did talk about in the introduction how today's focus is about how to create a cult following in an unattached world. And we will be hearing from Jason soon, but we're gonna keep it with Sawyer right now because I want to know about building a loyal and engaging fan base. Because let's be honest with our listeners here. It's tough, but you guys did it. You figured it out. So what the heck is the key to creating such a loyal and engaging fan base so quick? Honestly, I feel like something that we did from the very beginning is we connected with our audience and with our customers on a personable level.

2:53We were real. We were raw. We called out our mistakes. And we did that all online. You know, if they said that our product, our service was slow or not the best, we would say, OK, well, thank you for the feedback. Let us jump on that and improve and better. And we always answered everyone's DMs or any of the comments. And they really felt heard. And they felt that connection, which we weren't just hiding behind the brand. We were the brand. Now, Jason, I want to say thank you, first off, for being patient with us and by hanging out, because you and Sawyer have built something pretty special. So I'd love to hear anything that you might want to add to what Sawyer just shared.

3:36But also, I want to move into social media, because you guys use social media, specifically TikTok, and you created a viral social media presence pretty darn quick as well. So break down those success strategies for us. Yeah, absolutely. Hi, Fane Nation. Glad to be with you here today and excited to talk with you all. I think one of the things that was important to us is to also be early. A lot of times people wait on social media and say, hey, I'm going to wait till this platform is huge before I join and go on. And when we went on TikTok, it was pretty early. So we went on a little early and we went all out as if it was Instagram or Facebook or any other platform.

4:19And so one of my bits of advice probably would be to make sure you go early on a platform and don't be scared to invest both your time and content and all those other things that you do on a social media platform to be early. So I think, one, we were early. And two, and I think it goes back to what Sawyer said too as well, which is really being raw and authentic. people love it when you're authentic and raw and real. A lot of times when people go on the platform, they try to just take this content and it's like, I'm going to split it across all the different platforms and this is the content. Well, every platform is a little bit unique.

4:52What speaks to people on Facebook is different than what speaks to people on Instagram and what speaks to be different to people on TikTok. Like why was TikTok invented? It's basically our primary videos and it's where trends start and all these other different things. So when you look at it, you think how can we build content around kind of leveraging what the platform was built for so I think being early is one and then leveraging the platform of what it's built for is two so another one Instagram was really built early on around the camera people were getting mobile phones the pixels were really pixelated and so Instagram provided filters and all kinds of things to really make it great and so what we did is really leveraged photography on Instagram and what's the vibe on it or what's the pattern on your feed?

5:39All those little intricacies made a difference for that particular platform. So what do we do specifically on TikTok? Well, it was raw videos and customer reviews and those kinds of things started bubbling up on TikTok. And so rather than just saying, oh, great, that's our customers are creating that content. It was how can we get, and this goes into the third thing, which is how can we really take what's already happening and working on the platform and double down and 10x down on it. So because customers were going in and they were rating our cookies, we created a whole campaign around that.

6:10We're like, it's already happening. How can we create that? How can we create that and leverage our hype cycle marketing, which we do on a weekly basis? So because our content is every single week, we're able to create content fresh every single week. We kind of build that hype up for the cookies and really create this hype cycle marketing. So you take what's working already on the platform and what it was built for, you early adopt it, and then also you watch the audience and watch what they're specifically doing on those platforms that are unique to your brand, and you leverage that and you 10x it and make it that thing.

6:45So I think those are the kind of three things that have worked really well for us to really blow up and go viral on these different platforms. And Jason, I would add exploring new audiences because we were intimidated, don't get us wrong, at the beginning to jump on TikTok because it was very a young audience. And we were going after the common, typical soccer mom, which you typically find on Instagram and Facebook very strongly. But we said, you know, let's try going after this younger audience. And it worked out to our advantage. Being early and leveraging the platform for the reason it created Fire Nation.

7:19I mean, those are some fantastic takeaways. And by the way, something else is coming. Something is around the corner. Something's just over the horizon that hasn't even been launched yet. It's always an opportunity to be early if you are patient and then you jump when the time is right. And Jason, before we move on, I do want to ask you, what was that first TikTok video that you put out that really got traction? Bring us to that moment. When we started posting the real raw behind the scenes videos of our cookies. So instead Instead of just posting like, because when we got started, we originally started like trying to do all the dancing, trying to do all the things that are happening on TikTok.

7:55But really what kind of set us on fire is when we just showed all the behind the scenes, the fun, the coolness and the sexiness of the cookies and that part. So when we started leveraging and focusing on the cookies, which was great for us, that's when we noticed our posts started going crazy. That's when we noticed customers starting to engage. And that's when kind of things really started to take off. and it was more of the process jason it was more of actually cracking the eggs and showing them how fresh and real and raw our our mixing was you know like they were genuinely interested on how our product was made and they love that they love seeing that and it was so fun because at first you're like oh they just want to see us dancing or something right like that's how like but but again same thing with everything else we you know are constantly engaging and working that like sort of said, like when they see the behind the scenes and they see the freshness of the, of how crumble and how a cookie is made, it really resonated with them.

8:54It brought it to life. Like the experience was able to be captured through video and it actually appetized them to find a store or the store nearest them and go try our product. Fire Nation, people literally and figuratively want to see how the cookie crumbles. So in your business, whatever that means for you, make that happen. And we have so much more when we get back from thanking our sponsors. It would be really nice if we could predict what the future holds for our business. Talk about saving a lot of time and frustration, but predictions are just that, predictions. Rates will rise or fall, inflation's up or down.

9:33Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until we can actually see into the future, over 41 ,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one fluid platform. NetSuite gives you one source of truth so you can have the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. And with real-time insights and forecasting, you can see into the future with actionable data. If our businesses needed this type of software, I'd use NetSuite in a heartbeat because whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.

10:10Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash fire. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash fire. Netsuite.com slash fire. So we're back and as we were talking before the break, I mean, it's important to open the door, to open the kimono, to let people in, to make them part of the business, part of the process. and being unique is key. So specifically, how did you make Crumble difference? Yes. So our three things that we always focus on is how can we be different, better, and special than everyone else out there. And it's been something that we focused on since day one.

10:55Something that I think really truly makes Crumble unique is we are open concept kitchen. We make all of our cookies in real time. And as a customer, you can walk into our door and see every single step of the process. We don't have a huge glass display case with all the cookies that have been pre-made early in the morning. We actually make the cookies in real time, which is unique because you're walking out with something that was just barely baked. That's still that soft, nice cookie right out of the oven. And I think that's something that people really, truly love. It almost takes you back to when you used to make cookies with your mom or your grandma and used to sneak one off the pan.

11:40Yeah, you can see the flour there, right, Sawyer? Like, you can see, like, on the counter, you can see the eggshells that are there sitting in after they've been cracked and done. When you walk in, you can smell, right? Like, you can smell it because it hasn't and made hours and hours ago or early that morning. You can just smell it made in real time. So it's a feeling for sure when you get in there. Yeah, it's magical. And you know what's crazy, Fire Nation? And this is something that I don't even know if you two thought about before, but in a lot of places, especially in like cities, kids don't even know how food is made.

12:12They literally just think food appears like it is. They're just like, you know, ketchup is just ketchup. Like it just literally, like you squeeze up a bottle. Like they don't know there's ingredients in there and it's this and it's that. It has to grow and all these other things. is like people don't know how food is made these days because everything becomes pre-packaged, pre-made, all this stuff. So to see the eggshells and the flour, kids are going to be like, why are there eggshells? Why is there this white powder over here? Like they literally would not understand unless they had this process.

12:39So that's something super cool that I think parents would really jive with, bringing their kids to such an interesting environment. And Jason, what other technology did you leverage to accelerate your rapid growth? So one thing that we did too early on and one decision that we made was we hired a technical team immediately, right? So I come from a technology background. My whole career is kind of based around technology. And when we first leveraged our first experience was delivery. When DoorDash wasn't around and none of these experiences were around, when you could order cookies and watch the driver come to your house, that was really cool.

13:19I'd say today it's kind of just normal. You can see it. But when we first launched, we were kind of at the cutting edge of technology where you could actually see a driver come to you and watch that car come and have those special experiences. But we also spend a lot of time and energy around our mobile app, being able to order and have it, you know, whether you're going to the store to pick it up or have it delivered into your car. All those kinds of things, we've built all of our custom technology all right from the beginning. Another big move that we made, which almost seems crazy to probably any other food and service business, is we decided to actually build our own custom POS.

13:57And we did this in such a way that it was just really exciting to use. So when we set out to build it, we're saying, how can you use our POS system as if you've never used it like you're a customer? It's almost as good as a self-help kiosk. And so we did that and make doing those kinds of things when customers come in and they can see it and you can touch a cookie and it slides into the box. All those things are part of an experience. It's how you feel when you order. Right. And so all those decisions that we made early on and even now to say we're going to own the whole experience, whether you're ordering something from the screen, whether you're smelling when you walk into the store or what the cookie looks like or how it's delivered to you.

14:40All those different pieces and all the technology behind the scenes to make that work is actually a lot. We built our own KDS system. So when tickets appear and makes it easier for the bakers to know how to prepare the cookies, all those kinds of things, we built technology in and out front of the house, back of the house, everything. And I think it's really helped us kind of understand the customer experience, know our ticket times really well, know where the frustrations and pain points are in the technology process and how we can fix those things. So I feel like we've invested really early and really aggressively in technology, and it has dramatically paid off.

15:19And I think the biggest experience where it had paid off is when COVID had come, no one knew what was going to happen, right? Stores were closing. No one all of a sudden could go into a location. And so we had our mobile app out there and we said, you know, we're going to build curbside and basically add a drive through to every location because we only had one or two locations that actually had a drive through. And so here we are with hundreds of locations and we're like, how can we build a drive-thru? So in two weeks' time, we revamped our whole entire app experience and we made it possible for people to come to the store, order the cookies, see the whole experience, and have them right delivered to their car.

15:59Right before – while everyone was trying to figure out like how does this work or how are we going to do curbside, we executed in two weeks and our sales went through the roof. Like people just knew that they could order it. They felt safe. And it was really, really fun to watch. So I think when you own your own technology stack, you can leverage it during key moments in your company history. So I think that was one thing that we were able to do quickly that was successful. And so it's something to call out, though, John, is we're not just a bakery. We're a tech-driven bakery. And just like Jason said, we can be innovative and adapt and turn on a dime where we need to be able to adapt to the market, especially recently during the pandemic.

16:43Something that Jason said over and over again, and Sawyer said a few times as well, is experience, Fire Nation. I really want you to understand the power of that. You know, a lot of cookie stores or other stores that are similar, they maybe are just thinking about the product. Like, how can we just get the product into the person's hand as soon as possible, get them out the door, quick turnover, blah, blah, blah. Jason and Sawyer are just like, hey, how can we create an experience that people walk in anticipating a good time, they have a good time, and then they go home and they talk about the good time that they had and they're looking forward to it next time as well.

17:14That's how you win at a very high level. And so ask yourself this question, Fire Nation, how are you being different? How are you being better? How are you being special when compared to your competition? And experiences and bringing those in is a way to do these things. So, Jason, you too not only achieved rapid growth, you were able to sustain this growth over time. How? One of the things that we've done, too, is we're a very data-driven company. And we understand all the metrics of all of our stores. So we've built technology to know everything from ticket times to how customers are feeling about their cookies to what the sales were like for a different cookie when we dropped a new flavor for that week.

18:03So we were able to grab all this data and that really helped us scale. So rather than us going around and trying to figure these things out, we said, let's grab all this data. Let's create some metrics and let's build custom dashboards for our franchise partners. So they actually have their very own app just for franchise partners. And they're able to see how they compare it to other stores, how well they're doing, what time of day that they're having bottlenecks, and all those kinds of things. And so when we talk about experiences and if they break down, we know from a data perspective when it broke down, how it broke down, and what we need to do to fix those things.

18:38And so becoming very data-driven and building these dashboards and turning them over to our franchise partners and having them become data-driven too as well has allowed us to go from that one store in Logan to 300 stores all across the nation. Every week we can sit down and say, hey, where's our weakest point? How can we fix that? And how can we do it very, very quickly? And so that has allowed us to scale today. We've never had a store closed down. So you have all these things happening in the pandemic. You have stores closing down and everything. And people are just shocked to know, like, we have never, ever had one location ever shut down.

19:17All of our stores are successful, all the way up to 300. And we believe one of those key reasons is because we're data-driven that helps us to see when there's pain points or problems. You know, Sawyer can go in there and he can see the quality across the company and see, okay, hey, where is the quality? just not to the level and the bar where we need it to be. And he can go in there and work and manage the teams and operations to make sure that they're successful there. And Sori does just an absolutely phenomenal job of knowing the pulse of them because of that data and really executing and helping everyone be at the level that they need to be at.

19:52Yeah, it's awesome. I think something else I would add to why we've been able to grow is because Crumble is such an exciting brand. We've really focused on the culture, again, the experience, but also just the concept in general. It's not only an open kitchen concept, but something we have yet to mention, John, is that we are a taste weekly concept. So we have a menu that rotates weekly. We have four new flavors. And so it's super exciting. The anticipation is high the week prior, and it brings customers back week after week to try all of these fun flavors. And it's just so fun because our flavors range from as crazy as a bubblegum flavor to a rich, deep caramel chocolate flavor.

20:39And there's something for everybody each and every week. So it's super, super exciting. And not only do our franchise partners love it, but our customers love it as well. And Fire Nation, that's a question you've got to ask yourself. Are you staying stagnant? Like, are you just producing the same thing over and over and over again, of course people are going to get product fatigue. It just happens across the board. Now, let's stick with you, Sawyer, because I want you to take this home for us. What is the one thing you really want to make sure Fire Nation gets from everything that we talked about here today?

21:13We talked about a lot of great stuff, a lot of great tactics and strategies that you guys employed. What do you want to make sure our listeners really walk away with? The best ways we can connect with you and crumble any call to action you have, and then we'll say goodbye. Well, there's so many things, but the first thing that came to mind is don't skimp on quality, whether that's through the service or the product. And I think when we first started out, there were multiple companies trying to compete with us. And me and Jason would always have many conversations talking about, you know, let's not focus on them.

21:47Let's focus on us and make sure we have the absolute best quality that we can. Because if we have high quality and we're using the best ingredients and we're focused on ourselves and we're just moving forward, people will come. They will naturally come, organically come, and they will return. And I feel like we truly do have the best cookies, the best technology, and the best service in the industry. And we will continue to move forward and keep that number one spot because of our quality. And I think you have to have that to be successful. Jason, I have one question for you. When are you opening up a crumble in Puerto Rico?

22:24That's a great question. I don't have anything to announce today. It might be a little sooner than you think, John. Oh, well, that makes me really exciting. I'm going to talk to you about locations afterwards because I got some ideas for you. Anything, Jason, you want to say on that same topic that Sawyer just shared? And then also give us the best way that we can connect with your company and then we'll say goodbye. I think I just want to echo what Sawyer said. We're out on a mission to bring friends and families together over the best box of cookies in the world. And focusing on quality and focusing on yourself has paid back in spades and in dividends.

22:59While people are sometimes chasing their competitors, we always say our number one competitor is ourself and yesterday. And we've got to beat ourselves tomorrow. And I think that's one thing that we will always continue to focus on is being better every day, putting the best quality, service, technology that we can out there in the world. and just continue to be better. So always focus on being the best that you can be and trying to slay the day, I always say. Slay the day, Fire Nation. And of course, you can just go to Google Maps and type crumble in and you can make that happen. That's C-R-U-M-B-L to find a close location.

23:34But Jason, any social media, any place you want Fire Nation to go to learn more or to follow or to just see what's going on? I want you to go in and try the cookies, John. That's the best way to engage with Crumble is to just follow all of our social medias, see our cookies every single week, and then every single week just have a little taste and see what you think of the new cookies that week. So taste weekly and try out our cookies and you'll be hooked. Yes, follow us at Crumble Cookies on all platforms, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And write us. We'll write you back. We want to hear from you.

24:08Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. and you've been hanging out with three people for the past little while now, J-M-S-H and J-L-D. So keep up the heat. Head over to eofire.com. Just type Jason or Sawyer or both in the search bar and the show notes page will pop up with everything we've talked about. And of course, follow Crumble on social media. Get into the store, try it, go back the next week. It'll be new cookies to try. Eat some more, make it happen. That's why you have a Peloton, Fire Nation. That's why you have a Peloton. Jason, Sawyer, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation today.

24:44For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thanks, John. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value-bound content was brought to you by Jason and Sawyer. And Fire Nation, successful entrepreneurs accomplish big goals. That's why I created the Freedom Journal to guide you in accomplishing your number one goal in 100 days. And we're talking step by step. So visit thefreedomjournal.com and I'll catch you there or on the flip side. Over 41 ,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform.

25:23Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com slash fire.