How to Create Category Defining Brand Narratives with Tommy Walker

0:28Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation. storytelling, narrative design, the common trap that people fall into when it comes to better stories and narrative design, and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Tommy and our sponsors. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today. Fire Nation, is this your year to take your business to the next level?

1:08Attend the world's highest rated business growth workshop taught personally by Clay Clark and now featuring football star and entrepreneur Tim Tebow and President Trump's son, Eric Trump at thrivetimeshow.com slash EOfire. Again, request life-changing tickets today at thrivetimeshow.com slash EO Fire. Tommy, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. How is it going, Fire Nation? It is so good to be back and to see you again. I think that the thing that I, let's see, what is success that most people disagree agree with.

1:51It's that you have to go through the failure first. I think Gary V says it, and I don't really listen to a lot of Gary V anymore, but you have to eat crap before you can get to eat steak. And I think that the only way that you can appreciate success and get there is to really go through it and get that grind out. Well, we've both been through it. We both grinded it out. I mean, Tom and I were talking pre-interview chat. I interviewed him back on November 15th, 2012. That's almost 13 years ago. We were both in Maine at the time. He went back and listened to the interview, I guess, which was a really interesting conversation about his Indiegogo campaign at the time.

2:30He is in a wildly different position right now. I'm still doing the exact same thing. So I don't know what that says about either one of us, but hey, life is good. And we're talking today about how to create category defining brand narrative. So let's talk about storytelling. Let's talk about narrative design. What the heck is the difference? Okay. So most people, when they think about storytelling, when they talk about storytelling, they're talking about sharing anecdotes, right? So how the business was started, the before after customer story, the enemy story. And one of the most popular formats in the business storytelling space is a customer has a problem who meets a guide, who gives them a plan and shows them what will happen if they achieve success or they fail.

3:13Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that per se, but the main difference is that stories are self-contained. So it's the episode of a TV show or a book in the series or a movie in the franchise, or in the context of business, it's a blog post, a keynote or a webinar. And the problem, I think, with the way a lot of business storytelling gurus either talk about it as they talk about it as either though businesses should share personal stories, which makes many CEOs roll their eyes because they don't see the point or they're oversimplifying and mass marketing the process to the point where storytelling loses its meaning and can sound like a buzzword.

3:58Now, don't get me wrong, like what they're pitching sounds nice And it even it does work for people. Right. But after a while, it misses something like really, really critical. And that's that the people who are telling the story hit a wall because they don't know where to go next. Right. These brand stories are totally necessary to work at that broad level, but they don't account for the day to day marketing activities. So if I'm writing blog posts or running ads or podcasts or webinars, I have to find ways to connect those to the bigger brand story. And it gets all too easy to get stuck because I don't have a way to connect those to the day to day.

4:37All of my channels become a repository of mostly disconnected information and gives visitors very little reason to return. And I think that's terrible, especially in B2B SaaS, which is where I operate, because without repeat visitors, you have a much harder time of getting into that consideration set. narratives on the other hand are ongoing continuations and the evolution of a story over time so it's uh it's the long-term character growth from book to book or from movie to movie or season to season and in our case it's from quarter to quarter and year over year so like narrative design at least the way i like to think about it in b2b sass is the study of the fundamental principles of what makes stories work at both a dna level and at the meta narrative of how all of these pieces fit together over each month, each quarter, and each year.

5:27So I'll go a little bit deeper into that and what that looks like at the macro and the micro level. Now, one thing that you've become great at is building brand strategy. So I want to talk about how film and TV narrative principles can translate into building that brand strategy. Cool. So at the macro level, we have to consider a couple things, right? And I really like thinking about this from the beginning of the year, but you can make it work most of the time. So when we think about narratives, we have to ask two questions when it comes to our protagonist and what is it their super objective and what is their central conflict, right?

6:08So in popular media, right, that might look something like Aladdin wants to marry the princess and be worthy of love and respect, but he feels like he's a street rat. So that's preventing him from reaching that goal. Now, when I talk to content marketers, an example I like to use is that a marketer wants to progress in the career ladder, but they don't feel like their boss gets content. So they're held back from doing so. Now, knowing that when I plan a calendar for the year, I try to view that just like the four X structure of a movie where each act is a quarter, each month is a sequence and each individual piece is an episode.

6:42And that gives the audience the tools they need to achieve those little goals to hit that much larger goal. And when we think narratively like that, when I create an individual piece of content, right, whether it's an ad or a blog post or a webinar or whatever, I can bake in those reasons for people to check out those previous pieces and foreshadow what comes next. now when we look at that on the micro level we're starting to ask what does the audience want versus what they need so in storytelling right and i trained uh under one of the people i have a direct uh descendancy from uh one of the people who was responsible for changing all modern acting right yeah uh it's it's a weird flex but i'm like three generations away from the guy um what he talks about the difference between wants and needs are wants are extrinsic goals they're known to the character it's specific to them and it's what moves the plot forward right needs however are intrinsic goals they're unknown or ignored by the character they're universal lessons for the audience and it what's moves the character through their arc so for example and this is a this is a long answer um but uh so for example aladdin wants to marry the princess but he needs to accept himself before he's able to do so now in our world there's no shortage of tools that help us see what people want we've got keyword tools we've got reddit posts we've got social media listening there's a ton out there but needs are so subjective and remember because they're unknown or ignored we can only really get those i think from talking to people and reading between the lines of what they're saying so um yeah so like an example i like to use right and if we're looking at this on the micro level but an example i like to use in b2b sass is the topic of how to build a landing page for a lot of creators this is a rite of passage post for them right we have a pretty clear understanding of what people are looking for if they're searching that thing out Right.

8:49So what a person wants to know is the fundamentals, write a compelling headline, have a good image, make sure the body copy is tight and the CTA is clear. But what these people need to know, and this is how it ties to the brand side, is that especially when they work with multiple people, that nobody is going to agree on the copy. Everyone's going to argue about the value proposition and it's going to take much longer to launch than anybody plans for. Right. If you take that a step further and ask, why do they need to know it? You can get on a much more personal level and say they need to be validated by their boss or their credibility is on the decline because they've wasted a lot of ad dollars and need a win or they're going to lose their job.

9:31So there's a lot more that we could talk about there. But ultimately, I think if you're able to incorporate that both on a topic by topic level, but also on that meta narrative, you're able to establish a level of credibility that simply does not exist in most marketing. I love a lot of those examples. And the one with Aladdin actually kind of stuck out to me for some reason, because I was like, oh, I never looked at his character quite that way. But now that I have, I feel like I'm going to apply that at least to every single Disney movie that I see. Because of course, that's definitely happening.

10:06It's every single thing. Every piece of media that you see out there, once you know what the narrative principles are, you're going to see it in everything that you do. My wife hates watching movies with me, because I'm just constantly diagramming them in my head. And sometimes I'll talk about them out loud. Can I expand on that TV and narrative? Please do. Or the film and TV? Okay. So like when we also talk about different principles, we're going to talk about those principles in just a minute. But I think the most important thing is that people are conditioned to see these principles at play on every piece of mainstream media that exists, right?

10:45That's what we're talking about. and when screen screenwriters make strong choices for each principle they're invisible right in general audiences don't even know that they're there but when something feels off or it drags too long or the writer makes a weak choice we can feel that something is missing but we can't name what so we'll say that something feels like a trope or cliche and like I said one of the things I say to my students when they're done taking any of my training is that you'll never watch movies or tv the same way again because it's everywhere so as it relates to brand strategy the reason why most people will say that B2B content is boring or it often feels like it's lacking.

11:21It's because one of these principles is missing, sorry, and it makes the stuff they're producing ignorable. So the goal when it comes to translating that into brand strategy is to build narratives in the way that people are already primed to receive media and then put those messages in the places that people are spending time and tell those stories that really speak to where they are and that way it's much easier to pull them in and then everything you produce will travel a lot further instead of trying to force a bunch of one-off messages. And Fire Nation, as Tommy teased, we have the three most important narrative design principles that we should know coming up when we get back from thanking our sponsors.

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13:16That's highlevelfire.com, where marketing, sales, and automation finally come together. High Level, join the revolution. Fire Nation, is this your year to take your business to the next level? Are you looking to learn the proven processes and success systems that have been used to create thousands of millionaire success stories? See thousands of success stories and testimonials from real people just like you who Clay Clark has mentored and coached into prosperity at thrivetimeshow.com slash EOfire. Clay's proven business coaching program is month to month, and it costs less money than hiring a minimum wage employee.

13:53Yes, it's month to month and costs less money than hiring a minimum wage employee. Schedule your free personal 13-point assessment with Clay Clark himself today at thrivetimeshow.com slash EOfire. Because Clay only takes on 160 clients and only allows 300 attendees to each business conference, you will interact with Clay directly. See thousands of real success stories and learn about attending the Thrive Time Show two-day in-person workshop featuring football star and entrepreneur Tim Tebow and President Trump's son, Eric Trump at thrivetimeshow.com slash EOFire. Become the next success story.

14:27Schedule a free consultation and request tickets to join football star and entrepreneur Tim Tebow and President Trump's son, Eric Trump at Clay Clark's next business conference today at thrivetimeshow.com slash EOFire. Fire Nation, when it comes to building wealth, taxes are one of the biggest levers you can pull. And if you're not pulling it strategically, then you're most likely leaving money on the table. That's why I love Gelt, your year-round tax partner built for entrepreneurs, business owners, investors, and high net worth individuals who want to keep more of what they earn. Gelt combines an elite team of CPAs with powerful tech to deliver personalized, proactive tax strategies for your business and your personal finances.

15:07We're talking year-round guidance. a clear roadmap to track your progress, and seamless tools to file and review, all in one platform with a team that gets you. Fire Nation, I know what it's like to scramble at tax time, but with Gelt in your corner, you've got a plan, execution, and a partner focused on minimizing your taxes and maximizing your growth. Get a personalized consultation and 10 % off your first year when you mention Entrepreneurs on Fire. Visit joingelt.com slash EOF to get started today. That's join g e l t.com slash e o f Tommy we're back What are those three most important narrative design principles that we simply must know?

15:54I'm only going to go into two because I can get real deep into this and I get super nerdy about it So, um, we've already talked about quite a few of them, right? We've talked about wants and needs we've talked about super objective and central conflict but I think the two that are the most important to me are ones that I've gotten from screenwriting expert Robert McKee right so the first one is three levels of conflict so I'm gonna ask you a question John right can you think of a time where you've had to deal with a crap economy in a whole boss and crippling self-doubt yes I ask people that question because many people have that story in their mind, right?

16:32It can kick off a story in their mind. And the reason I like the way that Robert McKee talks about it is because it feels the most real toward daily circumstances. So the first thing I think people should know is that top layer, that extra personal conflict. So what are the things that are going on in the world that are completely out of our customers' controls, right? Like in storytelling, it's whether it's the economy, it's institutions like government or corporations, or my favorite is time, right? That next layer down is personal conflict. So this is more specific individuals like friends and lovers and colleagues and mentors, right?

17:09And finally, the personal conflict, which is, that's the relationship with your mind, your body, or your emotions. Now, I use TV and film a lot because this is something that we're all really familiar with, right? Because I like to draw those parallels because it's like you already know this you just don't know that you know this right um so one of my favorite shows i've watched it probably 10 different times uh is breaking down right and walter white when we start looking at these layers of conflict right he's up against cancer and he has a limited time to live and he's dealing with tight circum or tight finances that's his extra personal conflict right that personal conflict um which that initially leads to a conflict with his life or his wife, sorry, and gradually with rival dealers and even his business partner, Jesse.

18:01Right. And the inner conflict that he's dealing with, he's also feeling emasculated and powerless. So it creates this, this circumstance where it's like really, really engrossing. And it's something that we can talk to these conflicts. They frame the circumstances for the character. And then when we watch them deepen over time and we see the obstacles that each conflict throws at them, and we see how everybody around him responds, that's what makes Breaking Bad one of the best TV series of all time, right? Now, some businesses, they do take these conflicts into account at that brand story level and maybe in individual pieces of media, but rarely are they considering all three and even more rarely are they considered or carried over or deepened over time, right?

18:49So the other narrative design principle I think businesses should know is cast design. And this is something that when I talk about it, the first few times I talked about it, I got people scratching their heads, but then it's like, oh yeah, no, I see it.

19:07So what people don't realize when they watch a TV show is that the cast is designed specifically to highlight different dimensions or aspects of a character's personality, right? The protagonist's personality. And each character in a TV show will have functional roles, right? So I'll go through what those roles are. So you've got antagonists who aren't necessarily evil. They just represent a different worldview from your protagonist. You've got gatekeepers who prevent the protagonist from getting what they want. You've got mentors who can guide the protagonist along their journey. You've got allies who can help the protagonist work towards their goal and move the story forward.

19:50Similarly, you've got sidekicks who assist the protagonist, but they don't move the story. And then you have skeptics or tempters who try to keep the protagonist in the status quo or move them towards some sort of alternate path. So I'm going to go back to Breaking Bad, right? Walter's wife, Skylar, is a tempter who would also like to get money from Walt's old friend to get his treatment. but when we see how he responds to that we can find that we see how his ego and pride affects his decision making right but then he's also got um hank his brother-in-law who's uh he's hyper masculine right and he's a skeptic because he's anti-drugs he works for the dea right and it shows us how walt is emasculated by not speaking up for himself when hank picks on him about how much of a man he is right so like what we start to see is these are these different dimensions of that character um and in the real world we have our own cast of people who surround and shape who we are as well so like john i know you just you have a newborn which is awesome 18 months old it's wild man is it goes by so fast too doesn't it so fast yeah and like the thing is i know your wife will see a different side of you as her husband then your newborn will see you as a that eventually, right?

21:04And you have sort of two different roles there. Your sponsors, they see a different side of you than the people who help you produce the show, right? So there are these aspects of our characters personally that come out when we interact with different people, but businesses really forget that, right? And we look at the customer as this one-dimensional ICP and most communications only talk to them without considering what the product would mean to the people around them or the decision-making process or the pressure that they're under because of the other people, right? So I think when we're able to look at the bigger picture of how the layers of conflict shape the narrative of this person is going through and how they're getting in the way of what they ultimately want, and then how the people around them are influencing both their character and their decision-making ability, we're able to tell a way more robust and resonant story that speaks to the truth and not just pay lip service to how we talk to our customers.

22:04Fire Nation, an absolute masterclass on just the three most important narrative design principles that we should know. And Tommy, I want to take it home by talking about a common trap that people fall into when they're trying to tell these better stories. And how specifically does narrative design solve this? So it kind of goes back to what I was saying in the beginning, where people think that stories are only anecdotes and that good writing is a divine talent right i've talked to plenty of founders where they were like i can't tell the story and it's like while i do believe that people are more gifted than others everybody tells stories all the time right and i think that it can be trained to a certain degree it's just like guitarists drill scales or singers have vocal warm-ups and ballerinas have different positions that they practice to get that technique into them stories have their own fundamental principles that can be trained and can be drilled.

23:00So, which those are turned into narratives over time. Now, I don't think that professional writers shouldn't be the ones writing, but I do think it's important that everyone who's involved in creating customer facing conversations, they should be knowing and fluent in narrative design principles so they can be meeting conversations and meaningful conversations and collaboration across the board. Fire Nation, I know you're taking notes here because Tommy is absolutely rocking it when it comes down to creating category-defining brand narratives. And Tommy, I want you to take this home for us. What is the one takeaway that you really want to make sure Fire Nation gets from our conversation here today?

23:41And how can they connect with you to learn more? I think the main thing is that people need to learn these narrative design principles, right? There's such a miscommunication or mismatching communication styles inside different companies. And it's because people just don't know how to talk to each other in a lot of ways, right? You hear, make it pop, or this feels off. And it's like, if your creators don't have those principles and the people that they work with don't have those principles in mind, there's no way to have that shared language to get that going. If you want to follow along and see some of the stuff I'm up to.

24:21I'm on LinkedIn, Tommy Walker over there. So linkedin.com forward slash in forward slash Tommy is my name. Um, and you'll see all of the stuff I'm talking about there. Uh, and yeah, I'm actually teaching a program on this stuff pretty soon here too. So. Oh, well fire nation definitely make sure you follow him to learn more about that. And man, it's just so cool to see what's been going on in the last 13 years for you, Tommy and Fire Nation. If you want just an enjoyable time, go back and listen to that 2012 episode between myself and Tommy, because I'll tell you what, Tommy was great, or at least he was quite good.

24:58I mean, I was probably in my first 50 episodes. So like, man, you'll hear a different JLD. I can promise you that. But here we are 13 years later, still cranking away and life is good because you're the average Fire Nation of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with T-dubs and JLD today, so keep up the heat. And for links to everything we talked about, visit eofire.com, type Tommy in the search bar. The show notes page will pop right up. And Tommy, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side.

25:30Thank you so much. Hey, Fire Nation, a huge thank you to our sponsors and Tommy for sponsoring today's episode. And Fire Nation, are you an entrepreneur on fire who is looking to share your amazing message with the world. If yes, we are now accepting applications for entrepreneurs on fire. To learn more about becoming a guest, visit eofire.com slash guest and I'll catch you there or on the flip side. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today.

26:16Fire Nation, is this your year to take your business to the next level? Attend the world's highest rated business growth workshop taught personally by Clay Clark, and now featuring football star and entrepreneur Tim Tebow and President Trump's son, Eric Trump, at thrivetimeshow.com slash EO fire. Again, request life-changing tickets today at thrivetimeshow.com slash EO fire.