How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win with Rebecca Zung: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire. Brought to you by the HubSpot. podcast network, the ideal destination for business professionals with great shows like No Straight Path. Today, we're pulling a classic episode from the archives and we'll be breaking down how to negotiate with a narcissist and win. To drop these value bombs, I have brought to Rebecca Zung into EO Fire Studios. Rebecca is a narcissism negotiation expert. She was recognized as best lawyer in America by US News and has two bestselling books and 6 million views on YouTube. In today's foundation, we'll talk about how you alone define your value, regardless of how the other person makes you feel you have the power not to give them permission.

0:38A narcissist will do everything to bring you down. We'll talk about the key to negotiating with a narcissist and creating the magic bullet leverage and so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Rebecca and our sponsors. Marketing Made Simple, hosted by my friend, Dr. JJ Peterson, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Marketing Made Simple brings you practical tips to make your marketing easy and more importantly, make it work. A recent episode all about how Liquid IV is using marketing to shake up the beverage world, dives deep into the strategies that have propelled Liquid IV to remarkable success.

1:13A must listen. Listen to Marketing Makes Simple wherever you get your podcasts. Rebecca, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. So what's up, Fire Nation? So excited to join you. I am super excited to be part of your podcast and being part of your community. As far as something that I believe that most people disagree with, I'm going to go ahead and say execution. I think a lot of people think that maybe it's brains, maybe it's a lot of other things, But I really think a lot of it has to do with actually doing what you say you're going to do.

2:02And I know that sounds really simplistic, but so many people just don't do that. I mean, isn't there a quote of something along the lines of like, all the best ideas are buried in the graveyard? Because, hey, you can have a great idea, but unless you execute on that idea, Fire Nation, ain't nothing going to happen. So let's get going on this. And I love this topic. And I shared that with you, Rebecca, before we hit the record button, because it's really interesting when we're talking about how to negotiate with a narcissist and when. So first off, what the heck is a narcissist? I mean, how would you define narcissist?

2:41I love that question because it is not somebody who just says something nice about themselves. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, you know, everybody's supposed to be doing self love. So what's the difference between self-love and being a narcissist, right? So it really comes down to two things. It is a person who has no sense of inner value. So they have to get all of their value from the external world, either through people or events or things. And coupled with, this is really important, they have no sense of care, compassion, or empathy for other people. They just can't, it ain't there.

3:27So it's both of those things. It's not just somebody who goes around saying that they're great. Now let's talk about specifically within negotiations, because that's something that I maybe just don't understand and don't get is like that you may be treating them a little differently in negotiations than you would a non-narcissist. But I mean, let's be honest, As I shared in the introduction, you've had quite the experience over the years in courtrooms and out of courtrooms in these types of negotiations. So how do narcissists specifically act in negotiations and how will this help us knowing how they act?

4:05So the main difference between narcissists and what I call reasonable people is that they don't want the same thing that a reasonable person wants. a reasonable person is thinking toward resolution. They have an eye toward what's going to resolve this matter. The narcissist actually, their ego is fed, and we call that narcissistic supply. Their ego is fed by jerking people around, by controlling the process, by seeing people squirm, by manipulating, by intimidating. So even though their lips might say they want a resolution, you're wondering why they're constantly changing the goalposts, why you can't ever seem to pin them down, why there's protracted litigation, why they are stalling on things, not disclosing information, withholding, all sorts of things.

5:10And the reason why is because they get narcissistic supply from that process. So Rebecca, what I really want to understand is maybe an example of how you've seen this inaction. I mean, of course, we don't have to use names. We can protect the innocent or the guilty, whatever they may be. But like, how have you seen this actually act out in the real world? Give us as specific as an example as you can. Okay. So I was representing a narcissist in this particular instance, and here's a guy who's saying he wants the case to be settled, but he also says to me, I'd rather pay you than her. So, you know, it comes down to let's, you know, it's time to provide financial documents, which are required by law.

6:03So there's certain amount of disclosure that's required by law in certain types of cases. And he's refusing to fork over the financial information. Everything has to be done by subpoena. Everything is objected to. And I had to deal with this as the lawyer and I would be saying to him, this is a waste of money. Why are you objecting to this? you are going to go in front of the judge and the judge is going to say, provide the documents. And he just said, I just want to make it as difficult as possible. I don't want to provide the documents. I don't want her in my stuff. I don't want to have to do this.

6:44And so even though it's something that eventually he's going to end up having to do, he just makes it as difficult as possible for the other side. Now you have a lot of experience negotiating with narcissists? And you've already shared a lot of tips, tools, tactics, and different things, but what's the secret? What's one big secret to negotiating with narcissists that will be really helpful for us to know? I already told you about narcissistic supply, but within the narcissist brain in their world, and they don't even consciously think about this, but there's a hierarchy of supply for them. So there's a form of supply that they'll protect, they'll do anything they have to to keep.

7:34And that's usually wrapped up in how they look to the world, how they look to people they respect, how they look to mediators, judges, lawyers, anybody in the process. It might be their employees, it might be their employers, It might be neighbors, friends. It really doesn't matter. But there are certain people out there in the world that for the narcissist, they will do anything they have to to maintain their facade of looking perfect and wonderful in front of those people. Then there's what I call that the diamond level supply. And then what I call the coal level supply, which means it burns, it gives them energy.

8:14And of course, they want to keep it. It's definitely valuable for them. But that's the supply that they get that I just explained to you in the negotiation where they are jerking people around and controlling the process and making everything difficult and all that sort of thing. So really the key is building a strategy and leverage that actually threatens a source of narcissistic supply that's going to be more important for the narcissist to keep and protect and retain than the supply that they got from jerking you around and making you miserable. And the key is going, okay, this is going to happen.

8:56You're going to be exposed. And therefore they'll have to let go of, you know, it won't be worth it to them anymore at that point. Fire Nation, you can create a magic bullet leverage. And guess what? We're going to talk with Rebecca about specifically how to use it. We'll talk about the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with narcissists and so much more when we get back from thanking our sponsors. Things change fast in the online business space. And when you have a team to manage and a business to run, it can be tough to keep up with all the latest and greatest marketing trends. That's why HubSpot created the 2024 State of Marketing Report to pull together the top marketing trends that you need to perfect your marketing strategy this year.

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10:48Build muscle strength, boost your mood, feel more energized, tap into stronger focus, all from RUT Testosterone Booster, which is made from proven ingredients. And Fire Nation, thanks to Bucked Up, you have a special offer waiting for you. They are doing a buy one, get one free offer on their RUT Testosterone Booster. This offer is not available on the website, claim it today by texting FIRENATION, all one word, to 312345 or go to getrut.com slash fire. That's G-E-T-R-U-T dot com slash fire. Rebecca, we're back and we kind of teased that magic bullet and creating leverage with this magic bullet when we decide to use it, when we decide to employ it.

11:30So kind of break that down for us. What is this magic bullet? How do we use it? How do we create it? And how do we leverage it? So this magic bullet is what I just sort of started to explain, which is that figuring out what's going to, I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. So you're basically figuring out what motivates them. And in any negotiation, in any interaction with people, all people want to feel seen, heard, and know that they matter. That's actually just part of being human. And really good negotiators also figure out what's motivating the other side. But the problem is that when you're dealing with narcissists, a lot of times people think that what's motivating the other side might be money, might be, if it's a divorce situation, it might be their kids or something like that.

12:22But that is actually very rarely what is truly the motivation for a narcissist. So when you're creating that magic bullet leverage, what you're doing is you're thinking about what's going to really motivate and squeeze that narcissist and incentivize them into wanting to come to the table with you. And the way that you do that is you come up with the things that are potentially going to expose them, such as creating summaries of their lies and inconsistent statements and maybe creating summaries of times that they didn't pay something on time or that they withheld money or that they didn't do something that they were supposed to do.

13:05Anything that's going to potentially not play well when it comes time for the negotiation, either to the mediator or to other people that are going to be part of that negotiation process. You know, the other thing you can do is say, listen, I'm going, I call it deposing to expose, you know, where they actually, you say, I'm going to depose these people in your world and this camp, and we're going to have a conversation about what it is that you're doing. And, you know, they don't necessarily want that to happen. So you're building an invisible fence around that narcissist in a way that they have no choice, but to deal with you in a reasonable person way.

13:51And, you know, it seems like for the person who's the empath or the person who is the peace person who just wants to have a peaceful resolution, who just wants, you know, let's just say goodbye. Let's, you know, not burn bridges. is let's try to have some sort of relationship after this. It's hard to imagine that you have to create leverage, that you have to have a strategy because it seems like you want to fight when you do that. So it seems counterintuitive, but when you're dealing with the narcissist, if you want to have a peaceful resolution, if you want to come to that nice tie it up in a bow, walk away sort of situation where you are somewhat unscathed, you have to create strategy and leverage or you will never be able to get back to that point.

14:47Now, Rebecca, we talk a lot about mindsets on Entrepreneurs on Fire. Let's talk a little bit about the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with a narcissist. How does this play a role? Oh, I mean, it's critical. It's interesting because I've always said that 80 % of a negotiation is one before you walk into a room. I actually just interviewed Bob Proctor and he corrected me on my own show and said, no, it's 95%. And I will say that in some ways I have to agree with him because if you don't have a powerful mindset, if you aren't certain that you can win, if you don't feel strong, then you will never be able to get where you want to go.

15:32And so one of my favorite pieces of advice that was ever given to me was by one of my own business coaches. And I was, you know, in a situation where I was worried that somebody was going to think something about me. I was worried that somebody was going to think I was a flake. And she said, people will think what you tell them to think. And it was such an aha moment for me. And I've always, every time I speak on negotiation or in my book or on my podcast or whatever, I always make sure I work that in because people will think what you tell them to think. And if you're afraid in some way, if you are nervous or you're feeling like the other person is more powerful and you're never going to be able to get where you want to go or never have a powerful resolution, then you're never going to go farther than where you think you're going, you know?

16:31So Rebecca, as we close down here, let's talk about the one thing that we have to remember. If we're going to successfully negotiate with these narcissists and not just negotiate with them, but actually win. Break that down for us. I mean, you hit it on the nail as far as the nail on the head, as far as mindset has to be first, but also doing your research, making sure you're researching your side, making sure you're anticipating what the other side's arguments are going to be, doing your risk assessment. All of those things are really, really important, developing a rapport, making sure that you start with the things that are more agreed upon and work toward the more difficult areas.

17:15I would definitely say, make sure that you are asking for a hell of a lot more than what it is that you actually want. And also don't let on what it is that's most important for you to get out of this negotiation, because whatever that is, the narcissist is going to want to make sure you don't get. So, you know, in some ways, doing, having a decoy where you're saying, Hey, this is really, really, really important to me. And it's something that you really don't even care about that much because, you know, they like to be contrarians. They like to make sure that if that's the one thing that you want, that that's the one thing that they're going to go after and make sure you don't get.

17:54That's something that I really realized is dealing with a few narcissists that I've had to deal with on a continuing basis. They love, and I mean love, playing devil's advocate. I mean, you say something, even if they agree with you at the core, they are always going to take the opposite side on things just because they want to be the contrarian to play the devil's advocate. So just be prepared for that. It always seems to happen. And Rebecca, I want to just take a step back now, give you the mic. What's one thing out of everything we've talked about here today that you really want to make sure Fire Nation gets before we say goodbye?

18:28So I want to talk about value, your internal value versus your external value. And you and you alone define your value. Your value is not defined by that narcissist. Your value is not defined by anything external. it's defined by you and you are inherently valuable. You are the only person on the planet that is like you. You're the only person that ever has been or ever will be. You are meant to be here. And so regardless of how the other person makes you feel, you have the power to not give them that permission. You have the power to say, I'm not allowing whatever your issues are to you know, become me.

19:14So, you know, remember that because when you go to negotiate with a narcissist, you become public enemy number one. With a narcissist, they're going to do whatever they can to take you down. They're street fighters. They fight dirty, you know? So whatever the equivalent is of kicking you in the groin and pulling your hair and biting you, that's what they will, that's what they're willing to do. So it's going to be really, really important that you, you not emotionalize that, that you step back from that and you say, that's not me. And I see how you're behaving. I see what you're doing. And almost sort of look at them as if they're like having a tantrum on the floor, you know, like, okay, two-year-old's having a tantrum.

19:57So I see what you're doing. It has nothing to do with me. And the more that you can do that, and the more that you can stop yourself from being triggered, the more power you will have over them and the less power they will have over you. Rebecca, you have two bestselling books. You have over 6 million views on YouTube. I mean, you've been featured on Extra, Dr. Drew, NPR, Forbes, Time Huffington Post, you name it. You've been there. How can Fire Nation connect with you? How can they consume more of your content? What's your call to action for our audience today? Definitely check out my YouTube channel, which is youtube.com forward slash Rebecca Zung.

20:35But But obviously, if you just put in negotiating with narcissists, I'm the only one out there who is talking about that on the planet right now. And you can follow me at RebeccaZung.com. You can join my free private Facebook group, which is Narcissist Negotiators with Rebecca Zung. I have a free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet, which you can get at winmynegotiation.com. and, you know, come check out all my free resources, tons and tons of stuff out there for you. You do not have to do this alone. So I look forward to supporting you through this process. Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with.

21:18And hello, you've been hanging out with RZ and JLD today. So let's keep up that heat and head over to eofire.com. Type Rebecca in the search bar. Her show notes page will pop up with everything we've been talking about here today, links to everything. Of course, head directly over to all those awesome links and calls to action that she shared as well. And Rebecca, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thank you. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value bomb content was brought to you by Rebecca.

21:50And if you've had your big idea, you'd be ready to ignite. But my free training will get you to your big idea if you don't have it. And we're talking in less than 60 minutes. visit yourbigidea.io today and I'll catch you there or I'll catch you on the flip side Marketing Made Simple hosted by my friend Dr. JJ Peterson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network the audio destination for business professionals Marketing Made Simple brings you practical tips to make your marketing easy and more importantly make it work a recent episode all about how Liquid IV is using marketing to shake up the beverage world dives deep into the strategies that have propelled Liquid IV to remarkable success a must listen listen to Marketing Made Simple wherever you get your podcasts.