How to Scale to $30M ARR Without Losing Your Team, Vision or Mind with Sophia Deluz Bhan

0:02John Lee Dumas:Who's ready to rock today, Fire Nation? JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire brought to you by High Level, the all-in-one sales and marketing platform. Today we'll be breaking down how to scale to 30 million ARR without losing your team, vision, or your mind. To draw these value bombs, I brought Sophia Deluz Bhan into EO Fire Studios. Sophia is the COO of Search Atlas Group, a 30 million plus ARR portfolio of AI-powered search marketing platforms serving over 6 ,000 clients worldwide. And today we talk about winning in a crowded market, systems before sale, saying no to good revenue and keeping the startup soul and oh so much more.

0:37John Lee Dumas:And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Sophia and our sponsors. Fire Nation, 50 days will fly right on by. The only question is, will you have something to show for it? I created a free YouTube series called 50 Days to Something, a step-by-step path to build a real product, service or offer in just 50 focused days. Start today for free at eofire.com slash YouTube. If you are building a real business, you need real infrastructure. High Level gives you website hosting, funnels, email marketing, automation, calendar booking, payments, and course hosting all on one platform, plus award-winning 24-7 support.

1:15John Lee Dumas:Get a 30-day free trial and my full bonus stack that includes a 15-minute private call with me and much more at highlevelfire.com. Highlevelfire.com. Sophia say what's up to fire nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Hey fire nation. So excited to be here. One thing that most people would disagree with is I do not think you have to be ready. You don't have to have all the answers. You just have to not quit fire nation. We're not quitters. We're not going to quit, especially after this episode, because you're going to be fired up to just drive forward, because we're going to talk about how to scale to$30 million ARR without losing your team, your vision, or your flipping mind.

2:00John Lee Dumas:And Sophia, I want to talk about winning in a crowded market. I mean, let's be honest, AI software is one of the most competitive spaces right now. I mean, it's actually pretty crazy. How do you grow and stand out when everyone claims to be so gosh darn innovative? Yeah, it's definitely a crowded market. And the reality is that a lot of things are becoming easier. So in my mind, you have to build moats around your business. Now, we have both the fortunate and the unfortunate reality of having a very complex software. It's not something that someone can vibe code in a day or a week or even a year.

2:34So that's one moat is just the complexity of what we're building. The other moats, though, that I think are really important are number one, community. And number two, in our case, it's sort of like academic brand authority. So we invest about$20 ,000 a month just on our experiments team where we run experiments on SEO and AI search and publish white papers about that. If someone comes out and says, you know, oh, I built this SEO vibe coding tool, whatever. There's really a big gap between that versus the brand authority that we have because we're true experts in the space. So if you're building in a space where you're a true expert, you have to highlight that at every turn.

3:17That's one of my key modes.

3:19John Lee Dumas:I want to talk about systems before scale because, listen, you know it, I know it, we've experienced it. I mean, exponential growth, it sounds great. But before that's even possible, let's talk about the core systems that absolutely has to be in place to support that exponential growth. Yeah, I don't know if this is a controversial take, but I don't think there's that many. I think really in order to scale, all you need is product market fit and just feel really confident that there's a market for your product and what you're bringing to the table. And then some simple baseline metrics. So for me, if I were starting a company from scratch today, I would simply go to Claude, be like, what are the different scorecard metrics that I need to track across these different functions of my company?

4:04Make sure that I have some clear reporting in place. I've taken it a step further and I've now, you know, if I've coded my own dashboards, cause I'm so tired of looking at sheet after sheet of numbers and just walls of numbers. So now I have like a, a much better dashboard to give me the high level metrics, but as long as you have some metrics and you have product market fit, go for it. I feel like I see a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners who they just want to tinker with everything and get the systems just right, you know, get all their things in place, like do all the things that they think they need to do.

4:36And I actually believe that deep down, a lot of it is an act of avoidance. Like you're sort of avoiding this step of pouring the gasoline on the fire for whatever reason and tinkering. So I don't think you need that much before you really go into scaling mode.

4:51John Lee Dumas:So I actually don't think that's very controversial. I mean, simple is beautiful, Fire Nation. I mean, when you try to add all of these systems and all of these different platforms, I mean, it just gets confusing and it gets fancy and fancy usually fails. I mean, just have the core of what you need. And on that note, Sophia, can you maybe share an example of just one of these simple systems that maybe one of your clients has created? You're like, oh, that's good. Like, that's something that I really respect and like. Do you have one of those examples? I have a lot of build outs in our project management tool and ClickUp.

5:26So a lot of different dashboards that really help me understand like capacity metrics for the team and different things like that. It'd be hard to really explain in greater detail, but I'd be happy to send you a link of something after the podcast.

5:38John Lee Dumas:That'd be cool. And Fire Nation, we'll put that on the show notes page. You can maybe see that example of like, what does that simple system look like? What does that like growth platform actually look like in examples of being used in real life? And I also want to talk about saying no to good revenue, Sophia, because a lot of people just are like money, money, money, money. I mean, growth and money. I mean, it's tempting. And if it's there, you want to just reach out and grab it. But how do you decide when to say no, absolutely not to revenue opportunities that don't align with your long term vision?

6:12It's really funny because the ongoing joke for a long time at our company was people would ask us, what do you do? And our response will be, well, what do you need? and then we would just build around that and we would figure out how to how to fulfill you know whatever opportunity was there and over the years you realize that you know if you're saying yes to everything then you're really saying no to the most important thing so I do think we have gotten better about it I still would say we're not perfect because it really is hard to know sometimes and sometimes you just want money in the bank.

6:46So I think it's more about really honing in on the focus and trying to set maybe some really specific floors that I will not go below this no matter how tempting it is because there's just an opportunity cost there.

6:59John Lee Dumas:I mean, I love how you said that earlier and I'll even kind of take that a step further because I really believe that saying yes to one thing is actually saying no to all the other things you could potentially have done with that time, with that energy, with that bandwidth, with that money. I mean, it's just a reality. I mean, if you say yes to one thing, Fire Nation, you're committing to that. And something else that might have come up, you're not even going to know. You know, that's why when I, you know, this is a little off topic, but not really. But when I used to have these friends and just these relationships are just like, eh, it's okay.

7:25John Lee Dumas:Like the person's, I don't love them, but I don't hate them. I'm like, what are you doing? Because you're with this person. That means you're blocking yourself from finding the actual right person in your relationship. So when you say yes to being in an average relationship, you're saying no to potentially finding something amazing. And when you say yes to like an average opportunity, you're saying no to potentially that great opportunity in business that that's going to get blocked from you because of that. And Sophia, before we move on, can you give an example of a specific opportunity that you said no to or like the money was right there, but you're just like, this doesn't align with my long term vision.

7:59It happens to us a lot. You know, we have our software platform, but we also have a services agency component of that. and so a lot of times those agency clients they start to ask oh well can you also do you know web design or web development and it's high ticket number of things I mean over 100k 200k 300k things like that and we have just learned over the years that it is not the juice is not worth the squeeze because with the amount of time and energy that we would spend fulfilling a project like that when we turn that focus into what our core mission and core value really is we're going to make 10x that amount of money.

8:36You just have to have some level of faith and not sort of be ruled by the scarcity mindset of, you know, money grabbing fear where you say yes to everything.

8:46John Lee Dumas:You got to have faith, Fire Nation. You just have to have faith. And we have a lot more to talk about keeping the startup soul, speed versus sustainability, AI with the human touch. When we get back from thanking our sponsors, Fire Nation, if you're growing fast, your backend can't be stuck in slow motion, bills flying in, approvals getting bottlenecked, vendors chasing updates, that kind of busy work drains your energy and steals your focus. That's where Intuit QuickBooks BillPay steps in. QuickBooks BillPay helps you stay in your zone of genius by automating backend tasks. I'm talking bills, vendors, payments, even 1099s.

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9:55John Lee Dumas:Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc., licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Fire Nation, if you've ever thought, I know I'm capable of more, but you're not sure where to start, I've created something for you. It's called 50 Days to Something. Not 50 Days to Perfection, not 50 Days to Overnight Millions, just 50 Focus Days to Build Something that Matters. maybe a product, a service, a course, a coaching offer, something real and something that will generate real revenue. 50 days to something is my passion project. Each video is short, is tactical, and it's designed for you to take one meaningful step forward each day.

10:34John Lee Dumas:Picture this, in just 50 days, you will have built an asset. And the best part, it's completely free and it's on my YouTube channel right now. If you are ready to create something that matters, visit eofire.com slash YouTube. that's eofire.com slash YouTube and start your 50 day journey today. 50 days will pass in the blink of an eye. The question is, will you have something to show for it? Fire Nation, if you are building a real business, you need real infrastructure. That is why High Level is Entrepreneur on Fire's featured partner. High Level gives you a website builder and hosting, funnels and landing pages, email marketing, appointment scheduling, payment processing, course and membership hosting, and so much more.

11:17John Lee Dumas:everything you need to succeed all under one roof. No duct tape, no juggling five platforms, just one clean system for your business. And their award-winning 24-7 support has your back when you need it most. When you sign up at highlevelfire.com, you also get my exclusive bonus stack, a 30-day free trial, a private 15-minute call with me, JLD, access to my weekly live office hours, a digital copy of my book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, my 50 Days to Something Execution Roadmap, and more. Visit highlevelfire.com and start building your something today. Sophia, we're back and I want to talk about keeping the startup soul.

11:58John Lee Dumas:I mean, this is Entrepreneurs on Fire. Fire Nation, we are souls on fire with the startup mentality. So talk about how as the company grows, how can we preserve startup energy? How can we preserve startup ownership and culture when we're no longer actually a startup? It's interesting because even though we've potentially scaled past the point where we would no longer be considered a startup, I don't think that I will ever admit that. For us, we really are a startup in our bones. And to me, that means the ability to be really nimble and really agile. And it comes down to a few key things. Number one, you are the one who sets the tone for the company.

12:37So I really try to lead by example. I do a lot of specific things that are culture building. and I'm happy to get into that. And number two, the people that you hire are really the culture of the company. Before I ever worked in entrepreneurship, I had this very rosy view of what it would be like if I owned a company. All you really have to do is give people some ping pong tables and good benefits and the whole thing will work out. Everyone will be happy to work there. It'll be the vibe. And the reality is that the people that you hire and the example that you said are what creates the culture.

13:11It's really not about any of those additional things.

13:14John Lee Dumas:Fire Nation, I think you really need to think about like, what am I trying to create here? What is the business culture that I want? What is the energy? What kind of ownership do I want to be a leader above and within? I mean, that's kind of some questions we always need to be asking ourselves. And maybe just give one example of one thing that you did, Sophia, that you're like, I'm not going to leave this behind. Because I really liked the fact that when we were a startup, we had this in place or there's just something that you do. Maybe it's a weekly meeting. Maybe it's, well, I mean, what is that thing that comes up that you're like, I'm not going to let this go?

13:47For me in the interview process with candidates, I think it's not quite that we scare people away, but we kind of try to, meaning we're very, very authentic about what the company is like and what kind of person we're looking for. So I'm very upfront about the fact that I'm looking for somebody who is very flexible and okay with pivoting. One of the things that has given us a competitive edge is that we're okay with saying, hey, there's actually something new that we want to try and shifting over there. And we can't have rigid people on the team. So there's a lot that goes into the interview process to make sure that people are prepared for what it's like working here and that we're getting that right culture fit.

14:25And there's a lot of fun things that I think we do at the company as well. I guess a couple of specific examples is we have a channel in ClickUp called the Nebula channel. It's a channel that's only for shout outs and yeah, positive things, personal shares at the end of every month, whoever gets the most shout outs, we donate a thousand dollars to charity in their name. So it creates this kind of like fun competition. It also reminds people of, you know, more of the philanthropic side of our company and people are constantly shouting each other out, which builds the bonds. So there's certain things that like, we never want to feel really corporate.

15:01I mean, we want to perform at a really high level, but we still want to maintain that sense of community, camaraderie and soul of the company.

15:09John Lee Dumas:Fire Nation, I love just having that camaraderie, having that soul be standing for something. I mean, building each other up, you know, and then having that philanthropic at the end. I mean, somebody can be really proud of that. That's just a lot of fun. And let's move on to speed versus sustainability, Sophia. How can we balance moving fast with building something that actually lasts? Specifically, how can founders tell if they're scaling too fast or too slow? I mean, you know, the famous Mark Zuckerberg quote, like, we move fast and break things. Of course, that's no longer the mantra at Facebook, but that was the mantra for a long time.

15:43John Lee Dumas:And of course, it worked to getting them to where they are today. What is your take on that? I think you just have to listen to your customer. If the majority of your customers are happy, and it's unlikely that 100 % of them will be because customers are people and everyone has different opinions. But if the vast majority of our customers are happy, I think you're going at a great speed and you could probably go faster. We have rarely run into the occasion where we felt like we need to slow down. That hasn't really been a consideration. It may be we need to refocus on certain areas. We need to solve certain problems, but we're certainly not slowing down.

16:18We're just keeping the customer front and center to make sure that we're overall making them happy and fulfilling on our deliveries to them.

16:27John Lee Dumas:I mean, Fire Nation, speed versus sustainability. It always has to be on your mind. What are we doing? Which levers are we pulling? And I want to get into your really zone of genius, your zone of fire. I mean, Sophia, this is where you really thrive. AI with a human touch. I mean, AI can just take over in an extreme way. So what role should AI play when it comes to scaling operations while still protecting the human relationships that matter most? We are very pro-AI. Obviously, we have an AI company that the promise is to replace a lot of different team members that previously would work on technical SEO, content writing, and all those components of marketing for AI search and visibility.

17:09And I use AI, and we are very pro-AI at the company, getting everybody to think about their workflows and what can be automated. we have specific people on the company at the company level who only do that. They, you know, investigate every team and figure out what automations can we put into place. The part that I don't bring AI into is I never simply copy and paste something from AI into a message with a team member. So I will consult AI, but you know, have you ever just gotten copied and pasted something from chat GPT? And you're like, I know this is chat GPT.

17:43John Lee Dumas:Oh yeah. Cause it has that like extra long dash. You're just like, Oh man, that's not even a person. Oh no. As an M dash user, I'm very sad about the fall. But no, it has such a specific cadence of speak where it's like question answer and, and people don't really talk like that. So, you know, there are other LLMs that do a better job. I think Claude is much more natural sounding, but I do just believe at the end of the day, you know, if you're getting a message from AI. So I would never, you know, just give somebody feedback with AI or anything like that because it deteriorates the human connection that we have.

18:19I would use it more as a jumping off point for me to maybe get ideas. But yeah, I don't think that people should just be copying and pasting from AI and messages to each other. That would be my number one no-no for AI.

18:33John Lee Dumas:Let's have a closing value bond. This is for founders who are building in hyper competitive markets. What would you say is one principle they must anchor to if they want to scale without losing who they are? There's just some component of understanding that scaling a business is not the easiest thing. You're constantly going to be coming up against challenges and new things. And a lot of your friends who do not own businesses are not going to be able to fully relate to it. I've always said that the only thing you have to do to be able to be a successful entrepreneur is suffer more than anyone else.

19:14And we are willing to put up with a lot of suffering and, you know, making the wrong hire or, or, or whatever it is. And at the end of the day, what I've chosen to do is reframe it as entrepreneurship is this amazing vehicle for self growth and discovery. And when it says losing who you are, it's like, I mean, there's who you are deep down, but you're allowed to change and evolve. Alan Watts says you're under no obligation to be the same person that you were five minutes ago. And I'm certainly different now. I think for the better than I was before I had ever forayed into this venture of building companies.

19:50John Lee Dumas:So Sophia, if you could give us one key takeaway that you really want to make sure Fire Nation walks away with from our conversation today about all this awesome stuff. What would that takeaway be? Just do it. Don't overthink it. I see so many people who get really paralyzed by overthinking. And I used to be that way too. Revenue matters. Go make some money. Don't over tinker everything. Don't overthink everything. Just go for it. You'll figure it out as you go along. Sophia, Fire Nation is really connecting with you, with the words that you're sharing, with the value bombs you're dropping. How can we connect with you, with your business?