How to Use Job Search Sites To Your Advantage with Ian Siegel: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:01Light that spark fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like Created with John Ushai. Today, we'll be talking about how to use job search sites to your advantage. To drop these vibe bombs, I have brought Ian Siegel into EO Fire Studios. Ian is ZipRecruiter's CEO and co-founder, leading the organization with data-driven focus on delighting both job seekers and employers in fundamentally improving the hiring process experience. And today, FarNation will talk about how the willingness to learn will lead you to success, how research has shown that bias permeates every part of the hiring process, and oh, so much more.

0:45And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Ian and our sponsors. The Next Wave, your chief AI officer, hosted by Matt Wolfe and Nathan Lands, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Matt and Nathan are leading AI creators in your guiding light in the AI and technology frontier. AI technology is transforming the way we do business and the media landscape is fragmented. The Next Wave strives to be the leading podcast on AI technology and how you can apply it to growing your business. Listen to The Next Wave wherever you get your podcasts.

1:20Ian, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Hello, John. Pleasure to be back on the podcast. Something that I believe that you need to be successful is I think a lot of people, they think that in order to achieve something, they have to become an expert at something. and really I feel like the truth is it's a willingness to learn and be uncomfortable with how bad you are at a lot of things which is what leads to success and the example I always use is let's say you're a chef and you're a great chef and you think I want to open a restaurant let me tell you something if you are the chef who opens the restaurant you will never cook again because your job becomes so many things that have to do with running a restaurant but nothing to do with the kitchen it's getting a space it's designing the space it's hiring people it's picking the paper for your menu it's picking your hours it's picking a payroll system so i think a lot of people think that they have to become excellent at one thing in order to justify pursuing their entrepreneurial dream the reality is you just have to be willing to be a good learner and that the people who are willing to effectively be bad at a bunch of stuff at once and are able to be comfortable with that those are the people who have the right personality set to go be entrepreneurs.

2:44There's so much value in this Fire Nation. And if you haven't read the book, E-Myth Revisited, this is a great book on that topic, really breaking down, like, are you going to be the owner operator or are you going to be the person honing your skills in your craft? And one thing that I love about ZipRecruiter is, number one, we've been partners for over five years, which been fantastic and just, you know, having the support of ZipRecruiter for our show, but then also, you know, being able to let you, Fire Nation, know about how awesome ZipRecruiter is for what they do is a great back and forth.

3:19And you are always innovating. You are always making it easier to hire and be hired, which is why you decided to sit down and write your own book, Get Hired Now. So break that down. What is Get Hired Now all about? Well, fundamentally, Get Hired Now is a book that tries to condense down for you the things you absolutely have to know to be a good job seeker in the modern job market. And the reason I wrote the book is because the advice that you were given up till 10 years ago was great. But just about all of it now hurts your chances rather than helps your chances of finding a job. and the people who are teaching you how to look for work haven't caught up with the reality of how the job market is working and I have sort of a catbird seat where I'm sitting in the front row and I'm watching how employers really hire and I'm looking at the tools that they're using and there are a bunch of relatively straightforward, easy-to-observe realities about the job market that I shared in the book and then I gave very direct prescriptive advice about do this, don't do that to try and make you good at being a job seeker really in a day or less.

4:36Because this stuff is not that hard. It's just not that well-known. Fire Nation, this is why I love talking to Ian and I love working with ZipRecruiter because it's black or white. Nothing's gray. He's gonna tell you how to do things, why they're working, why they're not, and just give you that clear, concise advice that, as you just shared, can be consumed and can be implemented in as little as a day. So I got asked this question a lot when I launched my book a few months ago. And I'm gonna pass this question on to you. Obviously, you wrote a lot of chapters and I'm sure you love each one of them for different reasons, but what's one chapter in the book that really stands out to you and for what reason?

5:14It's really the first chapter because it's my number one piece of advice because it's the fundamental thing people do not understand about the modern job market, which is at this point, 75 % or more of the resumes that are submitted as applications for jobs are read by software before they are read by a human. And the only mission of your resume is to get past that software filter so that an actual human will look at it. That's it. So now you're not writing resumes anymore for people. You're writing them for robots. And I explain to you exactly what that means, what the changes are you need to make to your resume so that you pop to the top because it's now more important that the software be able to interpolate the information that you're providing to determine whether or not you're a candidate that should be handed to a human because that's the only way you're going to get real consideration for a job.

6:09I mean, Fire Nation, this one piece of advice could literally change the game for you on your next application because you'll be one of those few individuals that gets by the quote-unquote robots and the AI to an actual human being. So one thing that you do claim, Ian, is that the so-called conventional wisdom of job search, it just no longer applies. So above and beyond what you just shared, what have been the absolute biggest changes in job search? A lot of the conventional wisdom starts with the resume, which we were just talking about. And the advice you got was things like, use a really unique style so that when someone's sifting through a pile of resumes, your resume pops.

6:54Dress up your accomplishments. Use grandiose descriptions of the things you did. You didn't answer the telephone at the front desk. You were in charge of company communications. All of that is terrible advice because, again, there is some robot out there that is just trying to boil down exactly who you are and what you can do. And the more you try to be special, the more you use a nonstandard design, a nonstandard font, or language that doesn't explicitly and directly describe what you did, the more you confuse the robot. The robots are not very good at their job. So the only way to help them is to keep everything dead simple.

7:31And if you're worried that when it gets past that robot filter and in front of a human, that they're then going to look at it and think that you're a simple person, let me allay those fears. The average resume is looked at for less than seven seconds. So even when you get to a human, they don't put a lot of time into it. They're looking for one or two things in that document. And then they're onto the pile of people who are going to get called in for an interview. I was kind of chuckling there for a second because it just brought me right back to 2006 when I was getting out of the U.S. Army. And I was sitting there with an individual who was helping with my resume.

8:05And those were all the things that he was saying. So Fire Nation, if you want to still be applying 2006 advice, which probably was outdated back then in 2021, I mean, good luck because this is what we're bringing Ian on right now to give you what's working today, what's working now. So before we move on to the next topic, Ian, anything else you want to share about some of the biggest changes that have really taken root from that old conventional wisdom? Yeah, I think that there's a ton of research now that has shown in a multitude of ways that bias permeates literally every part of the hiring process from what happens when your resume is submitted and reviewed to the phone screen and then most importantly to the in-person interview and what a lot of people don't realize is that you can't win a job in the first 20 seconds of an interview but the people who lose the job lose it in the first 20 seconds of the interview so how you introduce yourself how firm your handshake is whether you make eye contact all these very simple to do things are either used for you or against you very quickly.

9:13And whatever conclusions that person draws, it will be almost impossible to change their mind no matter how long you talk to them from that point forward. So again, in the book, we talk a lot about what modern psychology research has taught us and how you make somebody like you in 20 seconds or less. And I've boiled it down to literally even like, here's the magic sentence you're going to say at the beginning of an interview. No matter what the first question is, this is the first thing you're going to say because it absolutely gets you off on the right foot and it starts a conversation that's going to be a winning conversation for you.

9:45Fire Nation, you can't win in the first 20 seconds, but boy, oh boy, you can lose. So why not nail those first 20 seconds to at least give yourself a chance? And of course, Ian is going to have the magic sentence for you in his book, Get Hired Now. And we have so much more value around this topic and more when we get back from thanking our sponsors. The overwhelm that comes with choosing the right software and tools for growing your business is real. With so many options and so little time, how are you supposed to know which platform is best? You've got your email marketing platform, payment systems, content tools, the list goes on.

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11:09And when they grow, the sky's the limit for your business too. Grow better, faster with HubSpot's all-in-one intuitive customer platform. Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. One of my favorite places to visit in the late summer months is my home state of Maine. There's just something about being on a lake in August and September that I absolutely love. And now that we have a little one, spending time with family is that much sweeter. Something else I love, sharing my home in Puerto Rico when I'm away. Think about it. If you travel for parts of the year, whether it's for a vacation, a business trip, or to see family, why not Airbnb your home while you're away?

11:51It's a good way to earn extra money and the joy of knowing others are enjoying your space is an added bonus. Plus, with things like the Airbnb setup guide and tips to make your home a great place to stay from experienced Airbnb hosts available to you, getting started is simple. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. So Ian, we're back in Fire Nation. We are all entrepreneurs. So let's get detailed for our audience. How do entrepreneurship traits translate to the job search process? So many people aspire to either a better job or a better life.

12:38And I think what really distinguishes a lot of the entrepreneurs that I have met from sort of the average individual is their thirst to learn and their willingness to do research and to go deep on topics. And I feel like the people who have the most success in a job search are the people who do research on the companies that they're applying to. because not only does the research help them apply to the right companies, but that research shows and shows incredibly well when you get to the actual interview. In any interview, what you really want to do is have a conversation, not a Q &A. And so if they're just asking you questions and you're just talking about yourself, I guarantee in 90 % of cases you're not going to get that job.

13:22But if you are willing to actually learn something about the company or become a user of its product or do the research on the reviews that have been written online, every one of those is a meaty topic where you can then ask them questions and or workshop with them in the interview. And let me tell you that another thing we learned from the psychological research is that when you get people talking about themselves, you are winning. The impulse to talk about ourself is so strong, it triggers the same parts of our brain that sex and chocolate does. So if you want to make your interviewer happy, which then makes them positively inclined towards you, you want to make sure you're talking about subjects where they have a lot to contribute.

14:02Wow, Fire Nation Research. Apply to the right company. It's not just about getting the job. This is your life. It's how you're going to be spending your days. So you want to love the company, like the company, believe in the company, its mission, its message. Do your research. And I love that phrase you used, Ian. Have a conversation. This isn't about Q &A. Don't be their rapid fire. This is a conversation. And I love this part in your book, and I quote, don't network for a job, network for a relationship. What do you mean by this? And can you give an example or two? A lot of people think of networking, particularly when they're in a job search, as a quest to find work as fast as possible.

14:51and really I would encourage people to instead think of it as a quest to introduce yourself to as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time that you can and the reason why you want to do this is over and over again what we see is that it is weak contacts not strong contacts within a network that lead to employment and the reason why is obvious so the people you end up knowing really well tend to know a lot of the same people you do and they know a lot of the same opportunities you do. So often when somebody gets referred to a job, it's a friend of a friend who is the reason that it works.

15:26And here's the crazy thing, and this goes back to bias. The known quantity bias is incredibly powerful. And if there is any, any sort of perception that you are referenced in by a known quantity, that will trump so many other factors in an interviewer or a team's assessment of who the right final candidate is for a job. So literally just being someone who said, who, who someone on the team can say like, Oh yeah, I think I'm connected to them on a social network or, Oh yeah, I think I met them at a conference or, Oh yeah, I have a friend who has worked with them. I'm going to check in with them and see what they say about them.

16:03That is a significant edge in a job search. So your goal is breadth, not depth. And a lot of people think like, If I'm going to network effectively, I need to sit down and have a lunch with somebody and really show off who I am. No, don't do all that. What you want to do is have as many authentic and brief inner counters as you possibly can. And here's my last piece of advice, and I know this is a long answer, but I have a lot to say on this subject, which is people are excited by only one thing. They're not excited about your potential. They're excited about your momentum. So if you want to get people invested in you or to remember you, you want to tell stories about the momentum you have with something, whether it's learning a new skill, whether it's something that you've been building that is almost ready to be deployed, whether it was a project that you worked on at a previous company and now it's going to be available to the public for everybody to see.

16:57Your enthusiasm for something is infectious, and so you want to express that as much as you possibly can. There's so much there. And I hope you're really taking notes, Fire Nation, because I know that I am. I mean, I love that phrase, a quest to introduce yourself to as many people as possible as quickly as you can. I mean, think about it like a quest. You should be thinking about it in that way and build your relationships. They are so powerful and they can make all the difference in the world. They can be that one little thing that just tips the scales in your favor. And remember, breadth, not depth.

17:28Be authentic, but be brief. These should be brief interactions so that you can have a lot of them. And I love that whole part about people are excited about your momentum. So remember to leave people with the thoughts when they interact with you that you are a person of momentum, that you have enthusiasm. That really brought me to a Kevin Kelly quote, which I love, which is enthusiasm is worth 25 IQ points. And let me tell you, a lot of the people that hire and do it successfully know if they bring people in who are enthusiastic just about life and about things in general, They'll learn the skills.

18:03But people that come in and they talk like this and it's not easy to get any kind of an energy out of them, they're just not going to be bringing the kind of vibe that a lot of companies want to bring to their energetic organizations. So Ian, obviously you dropped a ton more value in your book, Get Hired Now. So Fire Nation, you need to go to wherever you consume books and check this puppy out. But what do you want to leave Fire Nation with as a final value bomb to make sure that we really get this point that you're about to make from our entire interview. And then the best ways to connect with everything that you have going on at ZipRecruiter and then we'll say goodbye.

18:42Well, I think the thing I wanna say to the broad job seeker audience out there is a lot of people have conflated making more money with success. And sometimes making more money is success. But if you entirely direct your job search around simply who will pay you the most, that is not a great recipe for having a great career. You should be passionate about the work that you do. And if you're not, I would encourage you to take time to reflect because it goes back to that thing I was just saying before where you have enthusiasm and momentum. And when you're inspired and excited by what you do, then other people are attracted to you and the best opportunities will come to you.

19:28And I even put a story in the book that's a classic story to highlight this. It's very brief. But basically a man is walking down a road and he comes across three bricklayers who are building something. And he says to the first bricklayer, what are you building? And the guy says, I'm building a wall. And he says to the second bricklayer, what are you building? He says, I'm building a building. And he says to the third bricklayer, what are you building? and the man raises his hands to the sky and says, I am building a cathedral. Now, which of those three would you want to hire? Be the third guy.

19:59Fire Nation, be the third guy. I mean, come on. Enthusiasm's worth 25 IQ points. And believe me, most of us, myself included, could use 25 more IQ points. So you know this. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with Ian and JLD today. So keep up that heat. Head over to eofire.com. type Ian in the search bar and the show notes page will pop up with everything we've talked about here today. Ian's been a guest before. So you can listen to that episode as well, which also rocked it. And of course, check out Get Hired Now for all the obvious reasons from everything we've talked about here today.

20:35And Ian, thank you for sharing your truth with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. It's been a pleasure. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value bomb content was brought to you by Ian and Fire Nation. If you've ever thought about creating a podcast of your very own, the podcast journal is for you. It is gorgeous. It is faux leather and it will guide you step by step in the creation and launch of your podcast in just 50 days, five zero. Visit thepodcastjournal.com. Use promo code podcast for a$15 discount. And thank you for listening to my podcast. And I will catch you there or I'll catch you on the flip side.

21:13The next wave, your chief AI officer hosted by Matt Wolf and Nathan lands is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Matt and Nathan are leading AI creators in your guiding light in the AI and technology frontier. AI technology is transforming the way we do business and the media landscape is fragmented. The Next Wave strives to be the leading podcast on AI technology and how you can apply it to growing your business. Listen to The Next Wave wherever you get your podcasts.

21:48Thank you.