How to Write Great Copy for Your Business with Kevin Rogers

0:01Who's ready to rock today, Fire Nation? JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire. brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like System Saved Me. Today, we'll be breaking down how to write great copy for your business. To drop these value bombs, I brought to Kevin Rogers in the EO Fire Studios. Kevin is the founder of Company Chief, a community of direct response copywriters and entrepreneurs where everyone works and grows together on active campaigns. And today, Foundation, we'll talk about the three critical components of any piece of copy.

0:34We'll talk about stories. We're going to be talking about balancing AI with human elements and oh so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Kevin and our sponsors. DTC Pod, hosted by Ramon Berrios and Blaine Bolas, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. DTC Pod is a podcast about all things direct to consumer. Ramon and Blaine cover everything from starting, growing, and optimizing e-commerce stores and DTC brands. If you're interested in the stories behind your favorite consumer brands, this podcast is for you.

1:07One recent episode on how the best brands are built is a must listen. Listen to DTC Pod wherever you get your podcasts. Kevin, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. That is a great question, John, and it's great to be back. Here it is. Ready for this? I believe making plans beyond one year is not only foolish, it can be disruptive. It's so funny you use the word foolish because as you were saying that, I was like, that's foolish. You literally said the word foolish, which is a super common of a word. So I love it.

1:48We're already on the same page, copy wise, tonality, diction, energy, all the things. And Kevin just share with me that he is in year 10 of this amazing business that he created, which we're going to be talking more about, Copy Chief, as we talk about how to write great copy for your business, Fire Nation. And Kevin, what I love about you is you're a component guy, and you've actually identified not one, not two, but three critical components to any piece of copy. Many of us are probably only doing one, if any, so break those down for us now. Simple word to remember, cat, like a little kitty cat, you need number one clarity.

2:29Uh, you know, this John, a confused mind takes no action. And the single goal of any piece of sales copy is to get action, to get a reply, to get a click and get a response, maybe to get a sale. And so if we're not clear, we're dead right out of the gate. So I always recommend to people when your copy is done, read it to someone all out and watch their face. If their eyes start to shift upward, if they're not clear on what you're saying, what you're offering, that's job one. Okay. Make sure it's clear. Number two, A, authenticity. I know this word gets thrown around a lot and people say, oh, that's a cliche.

3:11Well, no, it's actually a necessity because if people don't feel like they're hearing from you, that you're being honest and direct and not hiding a different agenda, then they will not feel confident doing business with you. And then the T is trust with authenticity comes trust. And, you know, we buy and do business from people we like and feel good about. And so you have to get trust. And once you have that, you can have a customer for life. Fire Nation, I love acronyms. You know my favorite acronym, focus, follow one course until success. I've got up on my wall here. I might just have to toss a cat acronym up here as well.

3:59Even though I'm a dog guy, I still do like being clear, authentic, and having trust. Now, speaking of stories, which we're about to, I love the word history, because if you break it up into two words, it's his story, her story. Tell us why stories are essential for bonding with our audience. Yeah, I mean, going back to the earliest form of humanity, you know, when they dig up these cave dwellings, right? What they always find is hieroglyphics, and they're always telling a story. And they also find pictures of dogs, too. Not cats, dogs. No cats. There were no cats allowed. Warning of bad things to come, dangers, mammoths, hunting trails, right?

4:49They would sit around the fire and they would have ceremonies, like you said, connecting them to their history. And it was just how we bond and communicate. And that's one thing about humanity that just will never change. You know, stories are essential because it's why we care about people. It's why we get that trust with people. Think about, John, all the television singing competitions, right? American Idol, The Voice. It's always the backstory. If you watch those shows, you pick your favorite contestant, not for their amazing ability to sing a song, but for who they are. And that comes with the story.

5:29And let me give another example, the Olympics. I mean, man, when you get the backstory on the people, like I go from like not caring about the pole vault at all as a sport to being like riveted to my couch, being like, oh my God, he went through so much over his lifetime. I have to see him clear that bar somehow, some way. And then when he does, like I'm leaping to the roof, like punching my fist through the ceiling. That's just the reality of it. And I'll tell you another great example. And this is something that I love too, is these new shows that are coming out. They're on Netflix. They're called Receivers, Quarterback, Sprint.

6:01Oh, yes. The most recent one's called Starting Five, about five NBA basketball players. So it follows five athletes and you learn so much about them. And like it impacted my fantasy football team. Like I specifically drafted people that weren't as good as other people because I knew them, because I knew their story. And all I cared about was rooting for them and having them on my team because I felt like I knew them as a person. And I love, and that's why I love podcasting because a lot of people have come up to me and I'm sure they've come up to you in certain ways, Kevin, have been like, man, I kind of feel like I know you a little bit because I spend time with you, like listening to you, reading your work, like hearing your voice, like you're reading your, your words.

6:39So it's so important fire nation, but I have to move on. unfortunately, because this is such an important topic, but it's AI, it's artificial intelligence. It's what's keeping everybody up at night. Everybody's talking about it. Elon Musk is releasing videos of the robo cars, which I will buy immediately. I love them. I want everybody to be banned from ever driving a car again for the rest of their life. I can't wait for that day to happen. But how can we balance AI with the human element? Because I mean, we have to weave that in, but how do we do it? Copywriters were super famous for a minute back in November of 2022.

7:14When AI first came out, ChatGPT first came out, it was like copywriters. Everybody suddenly knew who we were and that we were about to be fired. It was amazing. You're still here, buddy. You're still here. That was two years ago. Right. And so here's what ended up happening. Yes, it was scary. But going back to what we were just saying about authenticity, trust, that is the human element. People can feel it, John. Good copy. You'll know you wrote something really good when you feel it when you're writing it. And when you put that out and people connect with it, you're not surprised. You're delighted.

7:53But you say, yes, I felt that. So I'm sitting at my laptop somewhere in the world. I'm feeling what I'm writing. I send it out in an email and people write back and say, this is how this made me feel. And that's an amazing, that, that supersedes technology that supersedes really any logic of how things are supposed to work, right? Mechanically. And so, um, AI is a great tool for helping you get ready to write. It's the most amazing assistant I've ever had in my life. um so use it to to do research to outline what you want to say to help you even think through an offer a course or something it's great at that but when it comes to sitting down and what you put out think of it as a a junior copywriter who can write a decent first draft but then you now as the senior copywriter is the real voice connecting with the people need to come in and make sure it sounds like you.

8:55And part of that is not being perfect. One thing AI does, it writes perfect grammar. And that's one way that people can tell it was written by AI and start to feel disconnected is it's just too perfect. And that's not how people talk. Fire Nation, you need to, again, have this balance element. And here's the reality too, that I think is really interesting is there's still people that are out there in every industry, they don't want to become the expert on X, on Y, on Z. I mean, you can now sit back. You're a copywriter. I'm now talking to you, Kevin. Like you're an amazing copywriter. So you know what great copy is.

9:33I don't know what great copy is. So I can't even see what AI does and know if that's good or bad. I just want to know. I mean, that's where your skills, knowledge, expertise comes in and how to work and to craft and to maybe get a little hint or start from the AI, but you know how to finish it or maybe have them embellish, the AI embellish something here and do something there. but then it's you with the finished polished product. Otherwise it all fails. So I mean, what can you become an expert in Fire Nation that maybe takes 10, 100, 1 ,000 hours to put you at the forefront in a very exciting niche and industry?

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11:08Visit hubspot.com slash marketers to learn more. Kevin, we're back. And once we've done the work, I mean, we have put the work in, we've grinded. Now what? How and where do we share our story in a marketing campaign? Because it's one thing to write something. It's one thing to create something. It's one thing to follow the process. But what if nobody sees it? And this is the beautiful thing about story is it transcends all platforms, right? Again, what do we respond to most in social media is story. We want to hear a story. We share stories. We want to feel something. And so when you have your story, You can break it up in ways to share it on every, you know, on Instagram, everywhere, Facebook.

11:56You definitely want to have it in the beginning of your campaign. You want your emails to be always framed in some personal story. Could be the slightest thing, but bring people into your life. Show them that you're real. Show them that you're having similar experiences to them. and then find the way to make the turn to the information you want to give them about a product you might be selling. Um, the more you practice that, the better you will get at it. We call it making the turn. Uh, so it doesn't need to be a long story. It can be, you know, two, three, four sentences, uh, something to happen at the grocery store or something that's going on with your, your kids or your, or your, or your partner.

12:36And, and then just frame it in, um, what you want to switch the topic to. And that is why people will keep, just like a friend or a neighbor that you get cozy with, the more you learn about them, the more you feel close to them. Fire Nation, such great and valuable points here. Let's dive into maybe one more thing that you've seen successful with people. Once they've created something of value, of meaning that they're proud of, what is maybe some of your clients or maybe one of your clients or you, let's give one example done that's really worked recently? Like I love talking about what's working right now.

13:11Connecting through video. People want to see your face. You know, really interesting, John, I have a 18 year old daughter. And so my view of social media goes through her, right? And I'm always asking her, you know, I'll say, what do you want? What are you watching? She'll show me. And it's always like some dude talking. You know what I mean? The stuff that we as marketers go, oh, nobody's got time for that. There's no attention span anymore. Um, this guy, moist, critical, right? I don't have you ever, she's what? And I go, well, this guy's just talking. Like, what do you like about him? She goes, well, he's funny.

13:46And I go, okay, well, when you're in, you and your friends are really into a video he put out, like, what, what do you talk about? And that we just say that he feels like a friend and it's nice to have somebody just talk to us and, and, and keep in mind, my daughter's not a lonely person. She's incredibly social in real life. She has a ton of friends, but she still likes to get to know people online. And, and so I would say like, stop worrying about, um, particularly getting likes and, and, and, um, you know, all those things it's not, doesn't have to be made for the short attention span. We always say about copy John, uh, there's no such thing as copy.

14:30That's too long. There's just copy that's too boring. So anything that's interesting and is, you know, hitting a nerve of something that your best customer really cares about, they will give you their full attention. And the longer they watch, the more they trust. So what's working is again, that CAT, that clarity, that authenticity, and that trust, put it in video form and share and tell your story and don't worry about the metrics so much as the point of your message. Okay, so what is an example of a topic that this content creator, Moist, talks about? Is it always super random? Does it have any kind of a thread?

15:10Is there value being delivered in any way, shape, or form? I mean, what's an example? Not really. It's two things. One, the video I was watching with her, he was talking about internet beefs, right? So think about it. Again, story, there's this context of he's got a beef with some other influencer and just, you know, really kind of mindless stuff. But it's like any soap opera. They're bought into it. They care about it. They're getting his take on how it all went down and, you know, what it means to him and how mad is he really and how much is this real and made up. So there's that, the classic drama.

15:45The other thing that they'll do, and you know that the other dude is really famous for this. who's the guy who just completely blew up and mr beast yeah yeah mr beast you know they'll do experiments for instance one thing moist critical did was they they uh rented the penthouse in the most expensive hotel in tampa they they happen to live here in tampa and they just went there and made videos of them checking in being in the place and they basically rated it it was like a review video yeah and what was interesting my son watched it and he's like well whatever you do don't stay at this place because it's a total rip-off.

16:22I'm like, oh man, I felt bad for the hotel. It's like, give us a heads up. But I can really see why that's interesting because these are experiences that most people, like 99 % of people will never experience because it's just like, it's insane. Like, why would you do that? I mean, even if you couldn't afford it, like, would you really? So, I mean, there's just like a very small percentage of people that would ever do something like this. But now you get to actually experience it, you know, through the eyes of somebody that you know, like, and trust, you know, going back to that T in the word cat.

16:50trust. So let's bring this all around, Kevin, because what if, like I mentioned earlier, we just know that we're not naturally a great copywriter. I mean, I've spent the last 12 years becoming a really good podcaster, host, facilitator of a conversation, but I haven't been working on becoming a good copywriter. So how do we find one? And even more importantly, how do we find one that gets me? Because we have to have that authenticity, that genuineness, that relatability. 100%. It is a relationship. It's very different than hiring most other contractors you'll hire because you need to feel good with them.

17:23You need to trust them. And because they're going to represent you and in some cases take over your voice to the world. So you want to give them a writing test. You want to give them some research, give them everything that you've done, every podcast, all your videos. And first of all, make sure that they're actually excited about who you are, what you do, what you say. they feel it they share share in your mission for your audience and then give them a test a couple ways you can quickly find out if a copywriter is a good fit for you number one is you could just hire them to do a critique of some existing copies so you get to see the way they think what they might change you'll probably get a lot of value and be able to make some improvements just from doing that whether you hire them or not and the second is to just ask them to write a sample email that you would send to your list it ensures that they're paying attention to what you do and then they can actually capture your voice.

18:19And then from there, look for chemistry. You know, it's gotta be someone you feel friendly with and like talking to. Fire Nation, so many great pieces of value and advice from Kevin. And Kevin, if I could just say one more, one key takeaway that you really want Fire Nation to get from our entire conversation today. I mean, we've talked about stories, about cats, and I'm not talking about the animal, I'm talking about the acronym. We talked about AI. We talked about doing the work, the marketing side of things. We talked about moist, critical. What is one thing you want us to walk away with? Learn to tell jokes.

18:56Google some good jokes that are appropriate and practice telling them. It might feel awkward, but if you can tell a joke, you can tell a great story. And tell the joke multiple times to multiple people and notice how much better you get at telling that joke over time. The first time might be awkward. The third time will be better. The fifth time, you'll have it mastered. And notice how many little words and changes of inflection and all those things and how much they change the outcome of how people receive the joke. Fire Nation, boring will put you out of business. So let's get that around our head.

19:33And Kevin, if Fire Nation wants to connect with you, wants to learn more, what is your call to action for our listeners today? Copychief.com. I'd love to give you free stuff and give you more tips about copy just get on the list over there at copychief.com Fire Nation you yes you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with and you have been hanging out with KR and JLD today so please keep up the heat for links to everything we talked about visit eofire.com type Kevin in the search bar and the show notes page will pop right up by the way if you want to hear more of Kevin's silky smooth voice we did an episode back on August 14th 2014 so 10 plus years ago Fire Nation go listen to that episode I'm sure you'll get a kick out of it value was definitely delivered there as well and Kevin thank you for sharing your truth your knowledge your value with Fire Nation today for that we salute you and we will catch you on the flip side thank you friend hey Fire Nation a huge thank you to our sponsors and Kevin for sponsoring today's episode and Fire Nation you know this over the last decade I've interviewed more than 4 ,000 of the world's most successful entrepreneurs And I've created a revolutionary 17-step roadmap to your financial freedom and your fulfillment.

20:42And I put it all into my first traditionally published book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success, which is personally endorsed by Seth Godin and Gary Vaynerchuk, The Common Path to Uncommon Success. It's the step-by-step guidance that you need to achieve the lifestyle of your dreams. Visit UncommonSuccessBook.com. I will catch you there or on the flippity-flip side. DTC Pod, hosted by Ramon Berrios and Blaine Bolas, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. DTC Pod is a podcast about all things direct to consumer. Ramon and Blaine cover everything from starting, growing, and optimizing e-commerce stores and DTC brands.

21:23If you're interested in the stories behind your favorite consumer brands, this podcast is for you. One recent episode on how the best brands are built is a must listen. listen to DTC pod wherever you get your podcasts.