If You Think Emotional Intelligence is BS, Then You Probably Don't Have Any with Matt Kursh: An EOFire Classic from 2022

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation! JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire! brought to you by High Level, the all-in-one sales and marketing platform. On today's Class Cup, we'll be breaking down how if you think emotional intelligence is BS, then you probably don't have any. To drop these vibe bombs, I brought to Matt Kirsch in the EO Fire Studios. Matt is the CEO and founder of OG Life Lab, has started and sold companies to Apple and Microsoft, ran Microsoft web businesses, and produced a round-the-world running relay for charity. And today, for our nation, we talk about value bombs, how some devices don't recognize infrared, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

0:35It's just like emotional intelligence. Just because it doesn't seem to exist, it doesn't mean that it's all BS. And how we can boost emotional intelligence, it's simple and is a conceptual framework, which we'll go over and oh so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Matt and our sponsors. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white-label your own software Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today.

1:15Fire Nation, it's time to stop guessing and start winning with a proven playbook. Inside the Freedom Circle, you'll have access to my step-by-step systems for creating offers, building processes, and driving traffic, all in just 90 days. Ready for freedom? Visit freedom-circle.com to learn more. Matt, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. JLD, thanks a ton for having me on this. This is really fun to be able to connect like this. I've been thinking about this question. I've listened to your podcast. I know this is how you start.

1:57The thing I thought from the perspective we're coming from working on emotional intelligence that the trap I see a lot is that a lot of really smart people, like the people who listen to the podcast, they look at role models in the work world and they think, you know what? It kind of seems like the path to success includes being a jerk. You know, these kind of high testosterone, super aggressive, dismissive types. And they think that, you know, it's not just that these folks succeed and are jerks, it's that they succeed because they are jerks. And it seems like common sense that that's not true.

2:37But you know, I'm sure you've come across people who seem to think that, you know, the role models say I should be a bit of an a-hole. And I would definitely say that in my experience and all the work we do in emotional intelligence, you know, it's kind of like, to use a sports analogy, you know, if LeBron James scores 35 points in a night with a back injury. Everybody knows they shouldn't go get a back injury in order to improve their basketball game. But some people in the workplace think, you know, maybe if I'm super aggressive, it'll help. And of course, there are times when being assertive and even a bit aggressive are helpful.

3:16But if you can't dial the knobs up and down to set the situation, and if If you don't have a lot of settings that are about being charismatic and positive or empathetic or quiet, if you don't have those settings, you're losing a lot of opportunities. So I would say the biggest thing I would say is if you think being a jerk is a winning solution, you're wrong. Well, that is a fantastic analogy. It makes a ton of sense for all the obvious reasons. And Fire Nation, as you heard in the intro, we're talking about the reality. If you think emotional intelligence is BS, then you probably don't have any.

3:53And I want to start off with the question, why? Why is emotional intelligence important in business? You know, the way I think about it is, you know, first of all, let's talk about what's an emotion. So an emotion is a short-term response to some kind of stimulus. It could be a stimulus out in the world. It could actually just be an idea in your head. and your response is either pleasant or unpleasant. So, you know, that's what means that it's an emotional response, that it has a degree of pleasantness. And if you think about the reality we live in, if you're engaged in some kind of activity, business or otherwise, in which you don't need to interact with any other humans and your own emotional state is irrelevant, then it's great, you should ignore it.

4:42I don't honestly know what that activity is. I mean, even if your job is just to add up numbers, your emotional life can interrupt with that. I mean, if your job is to add up numbers and you just got a text from a friend who said they're in a crisis situation, their house just flooded, you're not going to be able to add up those numbers because you're going to be distracted. That's an emotional response. But if you have some kind of mythical unicorn job or task that doesn't involve people or your emotions, then great. You don't need it. But if you do work with other people who are feeling emotions all of the time, then it's important.

5:27And unless you're a sociopath and have no emotions, you have emotions all the time. So, you know, you want to really factor that in. And I remember years ago, I was talking to a journalist who who did think emotional intelligence was bull. And I asked him, I said, imagine you are on the operating table. Somebody is going to perform surgery on you. And the surgeon walks into the operating room and he was driving on the highway and just was cut off by somebody and nearly crashed his car. And he is really angry and really freaking out. And he picks up the scalpel and he's about to make the first incision.

6:05would you like that person to be able to regulate their emotions so that they can down regulate their emotional state, focus on the activity? Or would you just like them to let it rip and while they're doing surgery, think about getting cut off? And I think this journalist recognized he probably wanted that person to have some emotional intelligence. So that's kind of an extreme example of what it's about. Another fantastic analogy, Fire Nation, to make it very clear. And I kind of want to continue on this chain right here because there are a lot of people that do think emotional intelligence is BS.

6:40So let's talk about those people. Why might they have that thought above and beyond this journalist? And why do you really want to make sure that Fire Nation understands that it's not? You know, we're recording this in December. And I don't know if you've read these stories about the James Webb Space Telescope that's supposed to launch amazing$5 billion device to, to take in all this data about our universe. And, you know, if, uh, I don't know much about telescopes, but you know, they have different kind of light spectra they can take in and infrared and, and visible and past visible. And it's all different kinds of data.

7:17And, you know, I think, um, you know, some, some of these devices can't see, for instance, infrared, it doesn't mean the infrared's not there. It just means they can't see it. And that's data that those astronomers aren't getting. And emotions are a kind of data, right? Like you want to know if you're that surgeon, you want to know that you are really angry and really afraid about this near car accident. You want that data so you can use it to chart a better course. And if you're a salesperson and you're working with a customer, you want to sense the data of are they giving you signs that they're open and interested or they're skeptical, that they're actually sad and distracted.

8:07You want all those signs. But here's the point. If you can't receive that data, if you're like that telescope that's just not getting the data, then it seems like the data doesn't exist and you think it's all bullshit. And so, you know, if you say that, you know, here's a – I'm working with a customer and they seem really distracted and they're not interested. If you're not picking up that data, it just sounds like the person's crazy. It seems like they're seeing something that isn't there. It's there. They just can't see it. And so I think to answer the question is some people think it's bullshit because they can't register the data.

8:49They don't register the data in themselves. They're not aware of their own emotions. And they don't register it in other people. And, you know, we have an emotional intelligence learning program, and our coaches will tell us stories that they have folks who get on the calls and say, I'm not aware of me having any emotions. And if you're not aware of having any, then you think it's all BS. This is some pretty intense stuff, Fire Nation. I think that you, Matt, really did a good job with your initial example about the surgeon, but I kind of want to dive into other types of businesses or roles in general that you think really require a high level of emotional intelligence.

9:34Can you break some of those down? One of the things that's fun and very recurring in our work is that people will ask whether it's a friend you meet or a new client, and they'll say, huh, emotional intelligence, That's really interesting. Let me think about what kind of work would require emotional intelligence. And they're like racking their brains. And the truth is, if you are a non-psychotic human, you need emotional intelligence. Now, a surgeon is a good example of a kind of work role where it's particularly important. An attorney is a role where it's particularly important. Any kind of manager, for goodness sakes, if you have a team that relies on you, if you can't read their emotional state and if you don't know your own emotional state, then how are you going to be a supportive and inspiring manager and leader?

10:39Not going to happen. So I could go on and on. One of the funny things for us is there's always like the raise the bar revelation. So we'll think we've heard it all and then we'll meet somebody who's – like I have a friend who's a retired DEA agent. And you think, yeah, I think if you just busted into a place with 20 agents with guns out, you need to have some good emotional intelligence. That's even more intense than being a business manager. I remember once we met a person who was a prison psychologist. Yeah, I think you need some off-the-charts levels of emotional intelligence. But the bottom line is that no matter what you do, you do really need it.

11:28And sometimes it might not be as mission critical. I mean, if your job is to file mail in a mailroom, putting the mail in the mail slots is probably not going to require all of your emotional intelligence. But the moment you walk out of the mailroom and have to deal with colleagues or deal with, you know, spouses or kids or whatever, you're going to need it every second. Fire Nation, I'm kind of curious what's coming into your mind as you're hearing Matt go through these different things, these different roles, these different businesses, or again, just the large breadth of it. And, you know, it just kind of keeps coming up for me, Matt.

12:03I'd love your feedback on is the movie American Psycho. Is there a reason why that's coming up for me? I don't know. it's too scary for me to see the movie American Psycho. So I haven't ever seen it. I think you're doing a good job, by the way, of avoiding some potentially visually upsetting scenes in movies and clips. There's been some things over even just the past few months that I've seen, not even purposely sometimes, because sometimes you're just scrolling through social media and something just catches your eye and you're like, I really wish I didn't see that. And that can affect you emotionally on a lot of different levels, Fire Nation.

12:41So kind of was curious to see what you thought about that. But I think a lot of people in Fire Nation were probably thinking the same thing. Because when you're talking about somebody that's devoid of emotional intelligence, it is that character in that movie. And it's really creepy when that happens. But Fire Nation, we have some really cool things coming up after the break. We're talking about boosting our emotional intelligence and other skills that are similar to emotional intelligence that everybody can benefit from. and so much more when we get back from thanking those sponsors. Okay, let's talk about a platform that's completely changing how entrepreneurs are running their business, and they are also our featured partner, HighLevel.

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14:29High level, join the revolution. Fire Nation, let me ask you a question. What if you could stop guessing your way through entrepreneurship and start following a proven playbook? That's exactly why I created the Freedom Circle. Over the years, I built multiple businesses and helped countless entrepreneurs build theirs, and I learned one powerful truth. Success doesn't come from grinding harder. It comes from building the right systems, systems that attract the right customers, systems that automate the busy work, systems that create freedom instead of more stress. inside the Freedom Circle, I hand you my exact playbook.

15:04No fluff, no overwhelm, just the step-by-step blueprints I've used to grow my own companies. From building your irresistible offer to creating a streamlined process to driving consistent traffic, you'll know exactly what to do and in what order. Pair that with a community of entrepreneurs who've got your back. You've got everything you need to finally create income freedom and time freedom in just 90 days. So Fire Nation, stop reinventing the wheel. Start following the proven path. Visit freedom-circle.com to learn more. That's freedom-circle.com. Matt, we're back and we can't boost our IQ per se, but there are ways to improve our emotional intelligence.

15:45Talk to us about that. It's interesting because I think one of the things that's perhaps dangerous about this name, emotional intelligence, and some people call it EQ, is they equate it to IQ. And we all know that we can get educated and learn things, but as far as I know, we can't actually boost our IQ. And so some people think, oh, well, EQ is like that. And so it is what it is, but that is not at all the case. You know, if you think about emotional intelligence, it's really a pretty simple conceptual framework. work, there's two parts of boosting your emotional intelligence. One is you want to recognize your emotional state and then you want to regulate your emotions to get them into a place that are better matched to your goals.

16:37So to take that apart, recognize where you are. So that surgeon walking into the operating room says, oh, I am angry and I'm actually fearful. And, uh, you know what, where I need to be is calm and focused. And so I need to chart a path from angry to calm and focused. And that, that path you travel is what we call regulation. So it's recognize and regulate. And so, you know, you can learn skills, uh, to help you understand where your current emotional state is and then chart that path. And, you know, you mentioned before the break this idea of some things we read in the news that are upsetting to us.

17:26Actually, that points to a regulation strategy, which is distraction. I mean, sometimes distraction is a way of avoiding things that you need to face. But sometimes distraction is very helpful. So, you know, for instance, if you're that surgeon, to keep using that analogy, if you're in the operating room and one of the machines is making some noise and it's distracting you, that's not good. It's making you lose your focus. So you want to distract yourself and perhaps just focus on the way your hand looks as it holds the instrument. And if you focus on that, you can block out the other thing. You know, similarly, you know, I haven't seen American Psycho.

18:06And there are some things I see the headline in the news and I say, you know what, that me reading that right now is going to take more emotional energy out of me than I have. I need to focus because I'm getting on to Fire Nation podcast with JLD. So I'm going to just I'm not going to read that right now. So that's a technique. The other dimension here that's really key, particularly for listeners, is part of that recognize and regulate is for yourself. but the other side of the coin is recognizing and regulating where other people are at. So if you're a manager, a great example of this is if you're sitting in your office, you know, you've heard of offices.

18:48We used to have them a couple of years ago. But if you're sitting in your office and somebody works for you, comes in, you need to read their emotional state. Are they really up? And if they're pretty up, you probably want to match them. They probably are excited about something and, and they want to feel your excitement. But if they're down, maybe they want to tell you some sad news or some disappointment that's happened to work. If somebody comes into your office and they're down and you get all excited, they just think you're a jerk because you're not, you're not matching them. So, so you've got to recognize and regulate with others.

19:24And so these are the key things you can learn. And we've been, you know, trained thousands and thousands of people to do this. And it's a pretty straightforward process. You just got to put in the work. So there's a lot to take away from this Fire Nation. And for one thing, I think about these interviews that I do. I mean, when I come into these interviews, I am really trying to start with a high level of energy because I'm hoping that my guest is going to come up and match my energy. If I started all down and droll, then even if they were kind of up a little bit, they're going to kind of come down to me a little bit because that's kind of what we do as humans.

19:58We like to try to match each other's energy when we're perceptive individuals and when we're perceptive beings and we have high emotional intelligence. We try to match that other individual. Well, I want people to match me, but I want them to match me at a high level. So think about that in engagements that you're maybe starting. And then in ones that you're not starting, hey, what are you doing to potentially match that level of energy, that level of enthusiasm or lack thereof to make that person feel comfortable and not like they're kind of weird because they're at such a different level and place than you.

20:28And what other skills that are similar to emotional intelligence can we learn from you, Matt, that we can all benefit from? Well, so what we're trying to do in our work at OG Life Lab is really help people gain the skills that are universal, that all humans need, that we don't really learn in school, and we don't learn in professional programs, and we don't even necessarily learn them on the job. And so we're really fascinated. A lot of people call those soft skills. We're not crazy about that name because it makes it seem like they're kind of secondary and optional. But for instance, we just announced a new product called OG Decide that helps people gain decision-making skills.

21:20And, you know, think about it. You know, our partner in this is a professor, Ralph Keeney, who's studied this for 50 years. And Ralph always says, a decision is the only intentional way to improve your life. And when you hear that, if you just heard that, you might have, like me, had a response of thinking, that is insane. Like there are lots of other ways to intentionally improve your life. But Ralph's point is actually there aren't. Every time you intentionally improve your life, you're making a decision. And the crazy thing is how many of us have formal training in making decisions? What are the steps in making a good decision?

22:02What are the dead ends that lead to bad decisions? You know, there's 7 billion humans. How many of us have training in making good decisions? how many of us have training in managing our emotions. So there's a bunch of things out there, and I would just encourage people to be mindful of them and look for areas where, though they may be great at the core of their job, there are other things that are more universal that they could improve and really elevate their game and, most importantly, improve their life. All of this stuff, though there's a business angle here, One of the things I think is inspiring about the podcast is it's really about helping people improve their life.

22:47All of this stuff means better relationships and better personal decisions and better family life. And that's really the goal. So looking out for all of these soft skill areas, I think, is really key. Matt, give us the one key takeaway, the one theme that you really want to make sure that we walk away with from this entire interview today. Well, I think the key thing is it's one thing to identify these areas where you want to be better. But, you know, to parrot a phrase that I know that comes up in the Fire Nation world a lot is you got to do the work. Yeah. Listening to this podcast hopefully fires you up, excuse the pun, but it's not going to make you emotionally intelligent and it's not going to help you make better decisions.

23:36You gotta do the work. And doing the work means finding a method to practice the skill. And so, you know, our products are multi-step phone-based programs that help you improve your emotional intelligence and make better decisions. There's lots of other ways to do it. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you read some clickbait story about one of these things and now you're a master. You got to do the work. But the great thing is when you do the work, you will get amazing dividends. You will see the trajectory of your life improve in ways that are really fundamental. And so you'll get a big payoff if you just put in the effort.

24:21Fire Nation, put in the effort, do the work. And Matt, if you want Fire Nation to connect with you, any call to action you have, share that with us now. Great. Yeah. So our website, if you want to know more about what we do is oglifelab.com. That's O-J-I, lifelab.com. Delighted to have folks come on there and learn more. You can chat with us right there. And we'd love to help anybody who wants to learn more. Oglifelab.com, O-J-I, lifelab.com, Fire Nation. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with MK and JLD today. So keep up the heat and head over to eofire.com and type Matt in the search bar.

25:06The show notes page will pop up with everything that we've been talking about here today. And Matt, thank you for sharing your truth, knowledge, value with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Been great being here. Thanks a ton. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value bomb content was brought to you by Matt. And Fire Nation, if you've ever thought about creating a podcast of your own, the podcast journal is for you. It is gorgeous. It is faux leather and it will guide you. step-by-step in both the creation and launch of your podcast in 50 days. Visit thepodcastjournal.com and I'll catch you there or I'll catch you on the flip side.

25:42Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner High Level and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today. Fire Nation, it's time to stop guessing and start winning with a proven playbook. Inside the Freedom Circle, you'll have access to my step-by-step systems for creating offers, building processes, and driving traffic all in just 90 days. Ready for freedom? Visit freedom-circle.com to learn more.

26:27Thank you.