Making Hiring Human with Joe Dunikoski

0:28Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation! the happiness advantage and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Joe and our sponsors. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today. Tackle everything you need from inventory to payments to analytics and more with Shopify. It's no wonder they have the best converting checkout on the planet.

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1:22Joe, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with? Yeah. Hi, John. Thanks for having me on. And I think that this one might catch a lot of people by surprise because it's definitely not very common. And what I think is actually super important to remember about becoming successful is that the more and more you succeed, the more and more you should remember how much limited time you have here on earth, right? We're mortal beings. And so by praying and by meditating about how much, frankly, how quickly our end is approaching, it A, makes us value our time more, but then also helps you stay grounded and humble to where you realize that there is a lot more in life than just money.

2:15But money is important because it allows you to do better things and bigger things with your remaining time here. I love kicking off that way. And I can tell you, there's, you know, some cons when you bring a child into the world, because it's a lot of responsibilities, a lot of work. But one of the pros that I've noticed now that I have a 19 month old is, man, I really am much more present day to day because seeing him change so quickly every day just really brings me back to like, man, time is going by so fast. Like you just want to slow it down. Whereas before there'd be like a month or two that would go by.

2:49I'd be like, I don't even know what happens. Like I just like went to sleep and woke up and it was like two months later. I mean, now that's like a huge game changer for like a kid that age. That's one interesting thing about having a child that I really do love, but I want to focus right now on a lot of things, but first and foremost, it's making hiring human. So let's tackle this question first. How common are hiring mistakes and how do they affect one's business? Yeah. So if they're very, very common, um, I certainly fall onto this idea that, oh, every hire I'm going to make is going to be good.

3:24I've already, my business is only a few months old and I've already made mistakes in hiring and I'm in a hiring business, right? But the reality is that 30 % of new hires leave in 90 days. What that does is crazy because it destroys A, your company, or it doesn't destroy your company culture, but it's definitely hard to move forward if you're not actually so sure about this hire, right? The old adage is slow to hire, fast to fire. It's sort of crazy because when you think about this, on average, it costs around$4 ,700 to make a new hire. And someone just today actually sent me a new study that says businesses, it costs 50 % to 200 % of a person's annual salary to replace them, including training costs, recruiting costs, et cetera, et cetera.

4:19And so when you are failing 30 % of the time, you're setting yourself back. And in the startup world, we know that speed and timing is everything. And you can't have a month or two where you're not so sure about this hire. And so these new hires, what they do, it's so crucial because you're hiring for, Or especially if you're in a fast-moving business, you're hiring for something that you recognize you needed yesterday, right? And so you can't wait 90 days to make sure, oh, this is the right person. Let's make big bets on this person now, right? We need to be more quickly able to really be confident in your hiring, be confident in is this person the right person for the job?

5:04And the reality is we are human, and we do – humans do make mistakes. It's just much more common than I think most people realize. I love that you put a number to that too, like$4 ,700. I mean, to me, that just makes it so real because now you're just like, okay, this is real because of a financial component that goes in with this. So what's the solution? What should we be doing? Yeah, it's hiring based on the whole person. So right now, the way that it's setting, the way the hiring system is set up is that you hire, you get a piece of paper, you look at this piece of paper, you're like, okay, Do I want to talk to this guy or not?

5:40And the reality is that, well, what's just on the piece of paper does really not encapsulate the entire human person, right? And you're hiring someone who interacts with people, someone especially if they're customer-facing, someone who gets along with their employees. And those human traits matter a lot. It's the difference between AI and a real person, right? is how are they going to react to certain situations that might not be clear on the, like the decision tree might not be there. We want to be able to hire someone who's more fully there. And what that means is that we need to hire based on not just experiences, and yes, experiences matter, skills matter, but we need to hire based on what does this person believe and what's going to make them happy, right?

6:35Are they going to be a happy employee? If you think about what a successful employee is, it's someone who, A, is good at the job, right? They have the skills and they have everything they need to be a very successful employee. B, they are aligned with the mission of the company, right? They care about what they're doing. And C, they're happy and they can get along with their coworkers, right? They have friends at work. when this happens, when that perfect storm happens, you come close to having someone who is going to stick with your company and do a really, really, really good job. Now, there's no perfect answer to this, but the closer that we can get to perfection or at least the right choice, the better it's gonna be for us in the long run.

7:19So how can we tell if a potential employee that we're looking at is a good fit? What can we do to make the best choice available? Yeah. So right now the options are a little bit limited, right? Because you have a piece of paper, a LinkedIn profile, and then to really understand who this person is, you have to talk to them. Except you only have eight hours in a day and interviews are usually around an hour long. So you can only talk to eight people, but you get on average 250 applications per job listing, right? So how the heck do you decide who to talk to? Because you want to be talking to the top eight, the top 10, the top 20 people in that stack of resumes.

8:01And really, what you need is more data. And you need data not just about where they've been in the past, what skills they have, where they've been educated. You need data about how are they going to react, what's their personality like, what do they enjoy doing in their free time, etc. etc. All of the stuff that you need data about really the whole human. And that's where my company, Verso Jobs, actually has, we are trying to push forward this idea that, look, we want you to be having conversations that go places, not dead-end interviews. Everybody knows that you have, you walk into an interview and within 30 seconds you know that it's not going to work out, but you're stuck there for the next hour.

8:45We want to make sure that never happens. And then you're talking to the best people because you've been able to have, you've been able to see the best data and you're making really informed decisions about who you interview. Fire Nation, all we can do is make better decisions. That can be the goal. That should be the goal. And we need to be using the tools around us to help us do just that. And we have a lot more to talk about specifically around this topic when we get back from thanking our sponsors. Okay. Let's talk about a platform that's completely changing how entrepreneurs are running their business, and they are also our featured partner, HighLevel.

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12:58over six years from 2008 to 2014, the companies that were ranked on the best places to work index actually beat the S &P 500 by 33%, meaning that$1 ,000 invested in 2008 turned into$3 ,000 in 2014 if the company was listed on the best places to work index. and notably that best places to work index is employees ranking their own workplaces. So are they happy or not at these workplaces? And if that company is listed on the S &P 500 but not on the best happiness index, you only returned$2 ,000, right? It's this crazy thing that when, and you can tell from like, from just going around and asking people, are you happy at your work?

13:50Are you willing to put in a little bit more extra into the day? Are you willing to stay late? If they're not happy at the work, they're just going to leave at five, right? I think that's a reality that most people know innately. But in my past, I worked and I had an incredible boss. I'm still friends with him. And I would stay super late, even though there was no financial gain. I wasn't paid overtime, and it was just to ship products. but I did it because I was happy and I love my job. And I know that a lot, that's the case for a lot of friends. In fact, John, you said that something like this happened to you in the past as well, correct?

14:30Sure. Very trail. Yeah. And it's just this side, this idea that like, as someone who's happy, they're going to be able to give more. And they're actually, in fact, someone who's happy is going to be distracted less. So it's not just beyond giving more and being more productive, but you're actually going to be more engaged in your work too. which is a real thing for just employee output. It's going to go up if people are going on their phones less, right? If your doom is going all day, your employees are probably not going to be incredibly productive for more to put out a lot of output. But you're probably not going to be going on your phone that much if you're actually enjoying what you do.

15:10So it's important, it's super important that there is this idea that someone wakes up and they're actually excited to come to work instead of grumbling and grumbling about the morning, wake up, they get to the office, they take 30 minutes to pour themselves a cup of coffee. Now they get out of bed, they're in the office snappily, and then they're happy to be at work on a Monday and a Friday. And when that happens, you struggle. I love that. And we've all experienced this on some levels, Fire Nation. This is why I want to move into the skill set, the actual skills that someone can learn on the job.

15:45We're talking hard versus soft skills. We're talking having a growth mindset. Break that down for us, Joe. Yeah, so I think this is best being broken down and frankly, what we look for at my startup when we're hiring someone new. And it's very easy. It's three things. It's, are you able to learn fast? Are you a really hard worker? And are you personable? Will you enjoy being around our office, right? Those sorts of things are very hard to learn, but it is possible to learn Python. It is possible to learn JavaScript. It is possible to learn TypeScript. It is possible to learn Excel, right? There's a lot of different things that you can learn.

16:29And again, speed of how quickly you can pick these things up is hugely important, especially in the startup world. But in people, if they're smart and if they can learn quickly, they can be taught almost anything it's really impressive what the human the human being is capable of right but when you approach something with a growth mindset and what i mean by that is that i don't i've yes acknowledged my mistakes and whatnot but i'm constantly looking for things to where where we can grow where we can become better employees and more importantly better humans right and if you're constantly striving for that on that incline plane every day, pushing 1 % to be better.

17:13A lot of people can learn so much in their jobs. When I started my first job, I barely knew Excel. I started as a sales analyst. And when I finished it, I was like a digital marketing specialist. I knew how to code. And it was all from, frankly, being baptized by fire. And it was, there's a lot of skills that can be learned, especially if you're a good teacher. man, like there's no better way to learn how to problem solve than seeing the brick wall and knowing that you have to somehow get through that brick wall, right? You have to solve that problem. I mean, the bottom line is, Joe, is that we have to build the kind of culture that actually attracts and retains driven employees.

17:54These are individuals that are self-motivated. So we know we have to do that, but how do we do that? If we had the silver bullet, we would be the most successful company in the world, right? And we would have that. But what we do know is that, okay, what goes into a really, really good worker? What really goes into someone who's going to be at your company for, God willing, 10, 20, 30 years? Well, make sure you pay them well. Make sure they're bought into the mission. Make sure they have friends at work. When you do that, man, the possibilities are endless really. And the key here is that making sure that the company is about something more than just the bottom line.

18:39Because someone's always going to be able to beat you in comp. Always. There's always going to be the startup that's raised$10 million or sorry,$100 million and who's going to be able to poach your best employees and all of a sudden you're you're sitting there on an island by yourself, you have no idea what to do. But when your employees are able to buy in and identify, I'm actually coming to work today, yes, because I'm being paid well, but B, because this is something that really matters in the world, in our case, making sure that people are happy at work. That's really important to the world.

19:19When you look at things like depression and mental health, If someone is unemployed or in a job that they hate, guess what? Not a big shocker, but depression rates rise, right? And we really need to build this sort of culture that attracts and retains. So it's about identifying what are your values and then every single decision that you make, trying to make it a little bit better, right? Like trying to make that decision 1 % better. And if something doesn't fit along with those values, making sure that that decision isn't made. So it's A, what is my mission? And B, who's going to be on board?

20:01Joe, you've just dropped value bombs on this topic left and right. I mean, a true masterclass. So thank you for that. If you could just leave our listeners with the one key takeaway that you would want them to really walk away with, what would that be? Yeah, and this is applicable for employers and employees. And it's just thinking about how important it is to be happy at work. And are you happy with your current job? And happiness doesn't mean you're sitting there behind a keyboard smiling all day. No, not at all. Happiness means fulfillment. Happiness means making a positive impact for other people in the world.

20:42and when you're not happy at work are you really operating at your best outside of work like i don't think that human beings are wired to be able to be annoyed or frustrated or miserable all day at their job and go home and being a good friend or a good spouse or even a good business person right i think that is we cannot really draw those lines and we cannot we can maybe pretend that we love this thing and we can maybe pretend that everything's all right. But the reality is you spend 33 % of your day at work and that 33 % and it's half of your day awake at work. There's no such thing as siloing that amount of time, right?

21:23The show Severance was created for a reason. Man, that show kind of freaks me out a little bit, but at the same time, It really draws me in. And Joe, if Fire Nation wants to learn more from you, wants to connect with you and your company, what is your call to action for our listeners today? Yeah, so you can check us out at versojobs.com. We have a platform that connects mission-aligned people to be happy at work. So if you're an employer looking for your next absolute killer empire, check us out. And if you're an employee who's dissatisfied with their current job, or if you're looking for a job, check us out.

21:58it's a gamified way of gathering a lot of data and connecting people to build a happier society. I love that. And Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with JD and JLD today, so keep up the heat. For links to everything we talked about, visit eofire.com, type Joe, J-O-E in the search bar, and the show notes page will pop right up. And Joe, one more time, what was that call to action for our listeners? Yeah, list a job today at versojobs.com. Joe, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side.

22:37Hey, Fire Nation, a huge thank you to our sponsors and Joe for sponsoring today's episode. And Fire Nation, are you an entrepreneur on fire who's looking to share your amazing message with the world? If yes, we are now accepting applications for entrepreneurs on fire. To learn more about becoming a guest, visit eofire.com slash guest. And I'll catch you there or on the flip side. Are you ready for the ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies? Build funnels, automate follow-ups, manage clients, and even white label your own software. Say hello to our featured partner, High Level, and visit highlevelfire.com to start your free trial today.

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