Stop Selling. Start Storytelling with Ken Moskowitz: An EOFire Classic from 2020

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire. brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like Marketing Against the Grain. Today, we're pulling a timeless EO Fire episode from the archives, so the giveaway may not be active, and we'll be breaking down how to stop selling and start storytelling. To drop these value bombs, I have brought Ken Moskowitz into EO Fire Studios. Ken is an accidental pilot, father of five, has fostered 19 kids, is a career creative director turned serial entrepreneur, best-selling author, voiceover actor, three times cheater of death, and a hotel bathroom aficionado.

0:41And today at Fire Nation, we'll talk about why focusing on selling sets you up for failures, where you can find your most valuable feedback, and how to give without expectation of getting anything in return, and so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Ken and our sponsors. Business Made Simple, hosted by Donald Miller, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Business Made Simple takes the mystery out of growing your business with episodes like how to get out of your day-to-day operations without crashing your business.

1:14Listen to Business Made Simple wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know that most leaders waste up to 70 % of their time on tasks they shouldn't be doing in the first place? It's time to delegate those routine tasks to a Belay VA. Learn how to make the most of your time and maximize your results today. text FIRE, that's F-I-R-E, to 55123 to download your free guide to a productive work week. Ken, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something interesting about yourself that most people don't know. What's up, Fire Nation? Well, let me start with something that I wasn't going to bring up, but my wife and I talked about it at dinner and she's like, you've got to share this.

1:55So for Fire Nation listeners, you have probably heard my voice on hundreds of TV and radio commercials and never knew it was me because I have probably 45 to 50 voices in me from Kermit the Frog, Yoda, Bill Clinton. I can do any of those and pretty much on demand. But here's the one thing that only five people know about me. I almost relocated my entire family to Dallas 20 years ago because I was the runner-up to be the voice of Barney. Come on! The runner-up! Oh, man! The guy who was playing Barney was retiring and they needed someone to replace him. And so they went through this national search and I was going to be the runner-up.

2:47But this other guy beat me. I was the runner-up. This other guy beat me out. And the next thing you know, life moves on. Well, you did say on command. So would you, in Bill Clinton's voice, ask Fire Nation if they're prepared to ignite? Fire Nation, are you prepared to ignite? Now, I'm not talking about the way I ignited in the White House because that was a completely different, you know what I'm saying? That was within terms. PG Ken. I'm keeping it clean. Anyway, so yeah. But, you know, I've been doing that for so many years as a kid. Oh, that's classic. You know, I used to walk around mimicking.

3:19you know, I would watch the Muppets and I go, hi ho, Kermit the Frog here. And I would just start doing it. And I discovered I had a really flexible voice. Oh, I love it. Well, we have a lot to cover today and I want to get into it, but I first have to ask this question because I had the question while I was reading your introduction and I know Fire Nation probably does as well. What the heck does it mean to be a hotel bathroom aficionado? Okay. So many, many years ago, I discovered that when you're traveling, the best bathrooms to use are not gas station bathrooms. They're not convenience store bathrooms.

3:55No. Hotel bathrooms are the best, especially when you go to five-star hotels. And so the bathrooms are always clean. They always smell good. They always have amazing hand towels. Two-ply toilet paper. I mean, it's incredible. Right. And so I have really gotten all of my friends to start when they travel, no matter where they are, they just stop and use hotel bathrooms. And so many, many years ago, I was with a buddy. We did a guy's weekend in California and we went to the Hotel Del Coronado. Oh, yeah. And he's like, Spanky, where are you going? I'm like, I got to use the bathroom. He's like, just stop here.

4:31I'm like, no, hotel bathrooms. And I broke Larry into using hotel bathrooms. And now he texts me whenever he's traveling. This was the best thing I ever discovered. He just like text you a picture of his feet. That's the only thing he texts you a picture of. I love it. And Fire Nation, by the way, Ken's nickname is Spanky, if you didn't catch that. And today's audio masterclass is Stop Selling, Start Storytelling. So we have a lot to cover. Why, Ken, why does focusing on selling set us up for failure? I think too many businesses are so focused on the conversion, they forget to create the relationship with their customers.

5:09And that's what storytelling does. When all you're focused on is that conversion click or that buyer. You're not building a relationship. You're building a transaction. And I love building relationships. So I tell stories and storytelling through messaging is the most powerful way to connect with your audience, to build a customer base that becomes very loyal. If you think about it, cavemen used to draw in the caves pictures, hieroglyphics of these scary animals eating people. They were storytelling. And it's such a powerful way to communicate, but it builds trust. It builds a relationship. And if businesses stop focusing on just the conversion, just the bottom of their sales process and focused more on relational storytelling, they would do so much better further down the sales pipeline.

6:02Fire Nation, focus on selling is setting you up for failure. And to me, this is just segueing perfectly into why we should be building relationships, not funnels. Can you expound upon that? Funnels are great for capturing an audience and moving them from a cold audience that knows nothing about you to warming them up, answering their objections, and then they become a customer. But funnels tend to have a problem. Unless you have a follow-up offer, you're just burning and churning. And for us, storytelling is creating these memorable touch points that not only as they become a customer, they're seeing your stuff, but after they become a customer, they're seeing your creative, they're seeing your stories.

6:46You know, my number one job for my business is when we're creating ads, we want to entertain and engage the audience at all times. If our ads aren't making people laugh, think creatively, if they look at our ads and they go, that's boring, they're never going to do business with us, right? So we do things that grab their attention, but that entertain them. I love making people laugh with our ads. And that's what we do. And because of that, people share them. And when people share them, they tend to share them with their friends. And their friends typically are people in similar industries or similar businesses.

7:25So it really helps expand your network. It's no longer a funnel. It becomes a web of sales. Fire Nation, there's so much value you here. I mean, I'm going to be honest with you right now. I'm a big, huge fan of funnels, but there's a key thing here. All of my funnels start by first building a relationship with you, Fire Nation. You. That's why our funnels work because I don't drop individuals in the funnels that have never heard of me, where I've never delivered value to first. It's at the end of the show. I'll share with you about my free podcast course or about my big idea course or about this or that, the calls to action into my funnels, but only after I've built meaningful relationships with you, my audience, Fire Nation.

8:09And then guess what? I continue, like Ken was saying, to build that relationship, trying to entertain and engage you the whole way through. And I can completely vouch that Ken's videos make people laugh. I mean, actually, can I even tell you this yet? But myself and Kate were both watching the video that you have on your homepage, and we were both just sitting there laughing. We're like, why can't more people just like understand that this is what's gonna make people watch a video? Not just like this talking head. It's like, I was wondering what was coming next with your video, like what is happening?

8:42And there's all these different things and antidotes that are just so funny. There's like these little kind of hidden gems and jokes as well that's just saying like, I need to just keep seeing this through till the end. Critical stuff, Fire Nation. You can learn a lot by studying from others in this area. Now, let's be honest. Fire Nation, some of them are solopreneurs. You know, they're on their own. Maybe they have one virtual assistant. You know, some people have big teams. But can the little guy or the little gal, can they build a big brand? Absolutely. First of all, today, with all of the tools, the resources that are available to us as business owners, you don't necessarily need a team.

9:23What you have is to invest time in creating what your vision is. There are tools like Canva, right? You don't need to be a Photoshop expert today. Melanie Perkins, the woman who founded Canva, she's created an incredible online design platform that allows anyone – like I am graphically challenged. JLD, I have zero skills when it comes to design, right? It's just not in my wheelhouse. but I can do things with Canva that make me look like I have graphic design skills. And so there are lots of tools that allow us to build our brand. Now, let me dig into what our brand is. A brand is really the touch points that every consumer sees, every little connection, every little nuance about your business.

10:12It's you're creating an impression that people get every touch point along the way. And so your brand is not just your logo and your name or your logo and your positioning statement, right? People think that for my business, they'll go ad zombies, words that sell anything. That's not my brand. My brand is the experience that we deliver for our customers, the humor, the entertainment. That's part of what builds your brand, right? Nike doesn't have to put the word Nike on any of their shoes. All they need is the swoosh because you have this idea, this vision of what their brand is just from that little swoosh.

10:52Any business can build a brand. You just have to invest time to build it. Your brand is the touch points that every consumer sees. I mean, think about that, Fire Nation. What are consumers seeing with your brand? Like what touch points do you have? This is a critical part for you building not just a brand, but a big brand. It's totally possible, but you have to follow the process. And you have a phrase that I love, Ken. Listen to your gut, not your gurus. What do you mean by that? You know, I think as entrepreneurs, and I remember early on when I left the corporate world, I was always seeking advice and seeking guidance and seeking help from people who are experts.

11:37And I'm using air quotes, which you can't see, but experts in their field. And I knew instinctively what to do, but I never trusted my gut early on. Early on, I felt like I needed that reassurance. I needed someone to say, yes, you're doing the right thing. But your gut will never fail you. And if you're listening to me, if you could hear my voice, you know, deep down inside, your gut has never led you the wrong way. And so listen to that gut, that inner voice that tells you, yeah, this is the thing to do. How many times have you had an idea about creating a product or something and then six years down the road you see an ad for it on TV or you hear something and you go, that was my idea, right?

12:20But you didn't listen to your gut and you did nothing with it. We all have those gut moments. And I've really made this discovery this year. I realized that I've been seeking for years advice from gurus when I knew what I was doing was right and I just needed that affirmation but you don't need affirmations listen to your gut the gurus know what they know but you know your business better than anyone else fire nation the reason why you're hearing Ken's voice and my voice and the fact that we as humans have evolved and survived for 70 ,000 plus years is because our ancestors listened to their guts.

13:01They didn't go out of their cave at 2 a.m. at night to walk around the corner where there might be a saber-toothed tiger. They knew they might be able to listen to their intuition. And guess what? They survived to fight and reproduce another day. So listen to that gut, that intuition, that guiding force that has stood by us for all of these tens of thousands of years. It's real. And finally, oh my goodness, We have so much more value coming out. We're going to be talking about the one mistake that all creators must avoid, how to actually speak our truth, and so much more when we get back from thanking our sponsors.

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14:44You know, like managing routine details, scheduling meetings, replying to emails and processing reports. If this sounds familiar, then I have the solution for you. It's time to delegate those routine tasks to a Belay VA. It's time to take back your time and spend your days casting vision, growing revenue, and scaling your business instead. Belay has been helping entrepreneurs scale and succeed for over a decade through fractional, highly vetted, US-based virtual assistants, bookkeepers, and social media managers. It's time to give away the administrative tasks so you can start accomplishing more and juggling less with Belay.

15:19And to help you get started, Belay is offering Fire Nation, their resource, your personal guide to a productive work week for free. Learn how to make the most of your time and maximize your results today. Just text FIRE. That's F-I-R-E-2-5-5-1-2-3 to download your free guide to a productive work week. So Ken, we're back. And before the break, we were talking about listening to your guts, not your gurus. At the same time, we still do need to get feedback. We still need to learn from others. So where in the world can we find the most valuable feedback? I believe your customers will tell you everything you need to know about your business and the comments you get on your ad creative, no matter what platform you choose to advertise on, and the engagement you get from your audience.

16:09That feedback is telling you which direction you need to point your business. And I can share this. I have so much data because I'm a little bit of a data nerd, actually. Okay, that's a lie. My business partner is the data nerd. I'm the creative. I always live in the clouds. He is well-grounded, so we balance each other well. But the data shows us, and the number of engagements and the comments on our creative, right, that tells you what you're doing right, what you're doing wrong, and what's working. and the feedback you get from your clients in terms of customer reviews, satisfaction surveys, all of that feedback is gonna tell you which way to point your ship.

16:51Your customers will tell you everything you need to know about your business. And a question that I love posing to my audience that has worked so well over the years is, what's your biggest struggle right now? Like when my listeners, when my audience, when my customers tell me what their biggest struggle is, it's my North Star. It's what that next project is, that next book, that next course, that next fill in the blank. Your customers will tell you everything you need to know, Fire Nation. So you're a great storyteller, Ken, but how can we, Fire Nation, tell our story the right way? The way you tell your story the right way is by sharing your truth with people.

17:31You know, I believe that if you share the journey of your experience as an entrepreneur, If you share the ups, the downs, the hardships, the successes and failures, if you tell your story that way from the heart and people see that, there's a lot more respect and a lot deeper connection to your business, to your brand. So telling your story the right way is simply sharing what's going on and keeping them involved. People don't – it's funny. Sometimes people say, oh, you were like an overnight success. Yeah, it took me 40-something years to become an overnight success, right? And it wasn't until I hit my 50th birthday that I really took off.

18:13So you could say I was a 50-year overnight success. But when my company started, when AdZombies specifically started, I documented the entire thing from start to finish, including when we guerrilla marketed at the Infusionsoft Icon Conference in Phoenix. And I hired zombies to roam the streets, giving out bags. And like, you know, I documented that and I shared it with my very, very small tribe at that point. It was like a hundred people that followed me and what we were doing because I had just started the business a few months before, or not even a few months, a few weeks before. And so from that, that documenting and sharing and bringing people along on your journey is so valuable and it creates a connection that's way deeper than just the business.

19:03It feels very personal to them. So this ties in pretty beautifully with telling your story, but let's really kind of dive in and break down how we can best speak our truth. How do we do that? Don't hide your failures. Don't celebrate your successes by buying a jet and a Ferrari and posing on Instagram. Just be real with people. like share the highs, the lows and, and tell them about what's going on. I, you know, I've had dark days. I think entrepreneurs tend to go through this, uh, journey alone. You know, I remember I shared in my book, the story about how I was so dark and despondent that I contemplated suicide at one point.

19:45I think everyone has gone through that or some level of darkness, but when you share that, when you speak that and you take away its power, right? By communicating that to the world, you've completely eviscerated its power. And sorry, using an SAT word there, apologize. But you really do because you take away the power because it's no longer a thought. It's been communicated out into the world. Everyone knows it. It's there for the world to see. It's just like a few months ago, I was having lunch with a very dear friend of mine, Pamela. and at lunch she was struggling with something and we started talking and I shared that I never got my high school diploma.

20:27And she was like, what? And I shared the story with her about how I came back from my exchange program, credit deficient, and I was gonna have to repeat 12th grade and I just couldn't do it because I needed to get out of there. I just was done and I walked and I never told anyone this. And I held that secret for 34 years, JLD. 34 years. It was like an albatross. And I panicked after I told her this because I realized my wife didn't know. So I told a very close friend of mine something that my wife didn't even know. And I had to go home and tell her and I shared it with her and there was no judgment and it didn't surprise her.

21:09Which I don't know if I should be shocked or happy about that. I think you should be happy. You married the right person. Exactly. But sharing that and freeing yourself of things like that is so valuable. That's what I mean by speak your truth. People tend to pose a lot these days. They show their best self on social, their Instagram feeds. It's okay to just be raw, be real, be yourself. My wife doesn't like when I go online and I show pictures of me or video of me talking and I'm in a t-shirt. She's like, you look like a slob. I'm like, it's okay. I am a slob. I can be me with my audience. It's all right.

21:44And I'll tell you, this is straight truth as well. I mean, when I meet Fire Nation at events, they don't come up and say, oh, JLD, like John, like great work with that six figure book deal you signed with HarperCollins. Like that was so awesome. What they say is like, John, thank you for that time that you shared that epic flop, that failure you had of a launch just a couple months ago, because man, like, you know, you've been doing it for eight years, you know, seven figures and annual revenue. And like to know that you can still fail at that level, just gave me the courage to try something knowing that I might fail too.

22:18But hey, everybody fails, even people that are achieving wild success. And in fact, that's probably the reason they're achieving success is because they are failing. And that's what people remember, Fire Nation. That's what people care about is you being truthful, honest, open, transparent. And let's really go strong on this one because this is a mistake that creators must avoid. So Ken, break it down for us. Guys, don't fall in love with your creative. When you create a message for your business, whatever it is, a landing page, an email, an ad, don't fall in love with your own creative. Because too many times we write an ad or we create something, we go, oh, this is the best piece of sales copy.

23:02This thing is going to crush it. And you put it out into the ecosystem and it flops and you get depressed and you're sad. Like, I don't understand. These people don't have a sense of humor. They don't understand. Creative is the variable of success. However, not everybody experiences your creative the same way you do. So think about this. If you're scrolling through a feed, LinkedIn, Facebook, and a funny ad is served to you, but it's the day that your dog passed away, you're not going to experience that ad the same way you would have if you woke up and found out that your great aunt that you never met left you$10 million in an estate, right?

23:46You're going to have a different experience of it that way. Don't fall in love with your creative. Create lots of variables of the creative and let your audience fall in love with it. And they will tell you what works and what doesn't work for them. And, you know, I'm shocked. There are days where I look at how our ads perform and I go, wow, I didn't expect that. And a great example of this, we have, so you mentioned that hero ad that you saw on our website. That ad has had in the last four months over 4 million views globally and drives a lot of sales because it's in the funnel world, right? That's a mid funnel ad.

24:22It answers objections. It does all these things. But that ad gets tons of comments, tons of engagement, tons of shares and people love it. But to get to the point of loving it, We split test seven different front end visuals. We split test, right? We try things because we want to see what the audience likes, what they resonate. I learned this from Daniel Harmon from Harmon Brothers. You know, take your thumbnail image. It's the cheapest thing to split test and test it. We tested seven to find the winner. And the winner was the actress with the KFC chicken wing or chicken leg in her hand eating the chicken wing.

25:01Don't fall in love. Don't be precious about it because your creative, quite frankly, might suck. And it might be amazing too. Fire Nation, don't fall in love with your creative. This actually reminds me of a documentary I recently watched on Apple TV. Epic documentary is about the Beastie Boys. And whether you used to like the Beastie Boys or you never heard of them or somewhere in between, like I've heard of them and I know a couple of their songs, but I was never like a big quote unquote Beastie Boys fan. But man, it was such a good documentary. country and one of the things about it was after they had some like early success they kind of went on hiatus for a while but then they decided to come out of that hiatus and they just spent an incredible amount of time pouring themselves into that next album they were going to release and they were so in love with that next album and then it came out and it flopped and it crushed them because they had just fallen in love with that but you know they had lost touch with their audience they had been gone too long a lot of things played into it but long story short they were able to recover because you know they were able to put it away and their next album after that absolutely crushed but you know a lot of people can't come back from a situation like that and never do come back and never had that in that that um later on success so it's so important to not fall in love with your creative like let your audience guide you on this process and ken we've talked about so much great stuff really take this home for us what's the one thing that you want to make sure Fire Nation gets from everything that we've talked about today.

26:30Give us a great call to action that I know you have for us, and then we'll say goodbye. First and foremost, give to your audience without any expectation of getting anything in return. What do I mean by that? One of the things that I learned from Gary Vaynerchuk, who's been an incredible mentor for me over the last several years is jab, jab, jab, jab, right? You go into groups online, you give value, you help people do it without any expectation of anything in return. Think of it like Christmas, right? You give without the expectation of receiving. And it's amazing what happens to you and to your business.

27:11It will open up your business to so many new things when you give without expectation. And that's what you got to do. You've got to do it. What is your call to action for Fire Nation? Fire Nation, if you want to try Ad Zombies, if you want to experience what we can do for your business in terms of telling your story, writing the words that sell anything, your product, your service, your business, go to adzombies.com, use promo code FIRE at checkout, and we will take 15 % off of anything you order. Even if you ordered multiple things, we will hook you up, Fire Nation. I can vouch Fire Nation for ad zombies.