The Art & Science of Influence with Jon Levy: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:01Boom! Shake the room, Fire Nation! JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire! Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network!

0:30leaders. In today's foundation, we'll talk about influence, how it's your ability to have an impact on a person or an outcome, how to find ways for people to care more about your brand, company, and product, and how networking is a terrible strategy to succeed and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to John and our sponsors. Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Ever notice how the smallest changes can have the biggest impact. On Nudge, you learn simple evidence-backed tips to help you kick bad habits, get a raise, and grow a business.

1:04Oh, and it's the UK's fast-growing business podcast. A recent episode on how to win any argument shares decade-long research into persuasion from a world-leading neuroscientist. Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. John, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Hello, Fire Nation. I'm so excited to be here. Something that I'm actually really adamant about is that everybody thinks that in order to succeed, you need to network. And I think that that's a terrible, terrible strategy. And the reason is that when you look at the emotional relationship that people have to networking, they actually feel dirty, and they want to clean themselves.

1:51Networking is like a pretty miserable experience. People go to these events trying to make friends, not even not trying to make friends, trying to transact, and it leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth. The real secret, I believe, is when you look at the research, people don't feel like that at all when it comes to making friends. Regardless of how introverted or extroverted they are, people love making friends. And so the key is, if you want real relationships that can actually impact your success, we need to do the things that cause people to become friends. Fire Nation, that's why I'm excited to have this conversation with John today, because he always comes at things at a different angle outside of the box.

2:28And we'll talk about this a little bit more at the end. But I mean, his new book, You're Invited, which is The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence, is officially available as of May 11th, 2021. It's in New York Times. It's a Wall Street Journal and a USA Today bestseller for obvious reasons you'll hear throughout this interview. So, John, I do want to talk first and foremost about the baller, and I mean baller dinner parties that you've hosted with some baller influencers. And I've actually been a part of one virtually, which was fantastic. And I kind of want you to share with Fire Nation details about these dinners.

3:09Break it down for us. About a decade ago, I decided to do something completely ridiculous. I started inviting 12 people to come to my home, but there was a catch. They weren't allowed to talk about what they did or even give their last name. And then, rather than me giving them like some nice meal, everybody had to cook dinner together. And when they sat down to eat, they'd play a guessing game to try to figure out who the people in the room were. And then there was this big reveal. they'd find out they were the Nobel laureate, an Olympian with Trevor Noah and Deepak Chopra, with Logan Paul, who you might know as like a YouTuber or even, you know, the person who discovered telomeres.

3:50And so I've hosted over 2000 people at 227 dinners in 10 cities in three countries, celebrities, Oscar winners, Grammy winners, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, you name it, we've had them. Wow. I mean, how cool would that dinner be Fire Nation to like be hanging out there, cooking with people, connecting with people, not having these preconceived notions of them because you didn't like walk in and get their like full bile, but how amazing they may be or what crazy things they may have done over their life. And then at the end, you find out who they are and what they've done. You're like, wow, like I like you just as a person.

4:25And now I get to hear some details about maybe a little more of your accomplishments and why you're, you know, a quote unquote influencer or whatever that might be, but you get to know them in a way before then, which is just very special. And more than ever, John, and I think this has even been accelerated with COVID and everything we've been dealing with, people seem to be uber focused on growing their influence, like uber focused. And they don't even really know what that means. They don't even know what the definition of influential is. So can you talk to us about what makes someone influential in your opinion?

4:59Influence is really basic. It's the ability to have an impact on a person or an outcome, right? It's just that. Now, the kind of influence that, John, you're looking for and the kind of influence I'm looking for are going to be different because we care about different things. Now, we tend to confuse influence with like social media following, and that's really more audience. It's you have an incredible audience and community that you've because you produce top-notch content, right? And so that's fostered an audience. But the influence that we actually care about is much more subtle. It's about getting a potential customer to see our perspective, getting our children to eat healthy, getting that seat at that fitness class that we want to work out at.

5:47And for that, for the things that really matter to us day to day in life, it's great to have an audience, but it doesn't really affect those things. Those things tend to be affected by three characteristics. It's who we're connected to, how much they trust us, and the sense of community that we share. And that's what influence is really made out of. Because if you're not connected to somebody, you can't affect them. If they don't trust you, they're not going to opt into being affected. And you'll notice that if I'm trying to spread an idea, the more people around you that are talking about it, the more likely you are to absorb it.

6:21I mean, Fire Nation, I really hope you're absorbing those three things that John just talked about. I mean, who we're connected to. Think about that. How much trust is there? And then that sense of community, like really that community. And John, this is like a little and slightly off topic, but I'm just kind of curious because I do look at you as like a master of community and a master of community building and bringing people together. You know, one thing that I have realized over the years is that, you know, when it comes to community, it just can't be infinite. I mean, there's only so many people that we can keep in real meaningful touch with, that we can really stay connected to on a very consistent basis.

7:02So there's kind of like these different levels of like your inner circle. And then, you know, maybe your outer circle, people just bump into at conferences and you'd love to hang out more of them, but you know, there's only so much time. Yeah, they're loose ties. So like, can you talk a little bit about that? Have you seen numbers or how that plays out for most people in your world? I think the first thing we need to ask is not so much if there's a set number for people, so much as what people are comfortable with. So if you're really introverted and you just don't want to have a thousand people that you're in touch with, that wouldn't make any sense for you.

7:36And there's nothing wrong with having a super core group of three people, five people that you're very, very close with and having a bunch of loose ties around that. Now, if you're incredibly extroverted, you might still have that same core group, but then like literally 300 people that you have loose ties with. The biggest recommendation though that I can make, and this is one of the big mistakes I think people make in general, is that John and I don't really get to see each other very often. I mean, I don't think we've actually ever met in person. And that means that the chances of us becoming close is limited.

8:18But if John knows, and I actually think he does, like 10 of my good friends, then what ends up happening is that he gets to hear about me, even if I'm not talking to him directly, and I get to hear about him. And so we're in each other's orbit, we feel safer with one another, and we're more familiar with one another. So what most people end up doing is they try to hoard relationships. They say, okay, these are a bunch of very important people. I don't want to bug them. I don't want to interfere in their life. Only in those moments that I really need something. My personal perspective is that if those 10 people are extraordinary, I want them to know each other as much as possible.

8:59Because first of all, they'll be really happy that I introduced them to one another. They'll have great friends. and the more people we know in common, the closer we become, even if we don't see each other on a consistent basis. So I agree wholeheartedly, John, there is a limit to how much we can manage. And the more we connect the people around us, the less effort that puts on us to actually have to manage things. So you see Fire Nation, why I asked John these questions, because frankly, he's just a person that actually has sat down at some point, maybe multiple points and thought these things through.

9:33And that's why I love speaking to people who take the time to really become masters in their area of expertise. And as we talked about earlier, and I mean, you specifically mentioned something around the lines of traditional networking actually stinks because people just do it wrong. You might feel dirty and slimy when you're leaving one of those traditional networking events. So what specifically stinks about it? And what should we as entrepreneurs, as people that do want to connect with other people be doing instead? I think the simple thing that stinks about it is that none of us want to be that inauthentic person who just uses another person.

10:07And at networking events, you know, people are exchanging cards before they know a person's name. And the moment that they realize there's no business opportunity, they walk off. And that doesn't feel right to us. Now, what seems to work well is to look at what actually makes people friends. And what causes us to be friends is generally common ground. We're either introduced through another friend or it's a shared interest, activity or culture. So, for example, John, if you're at a event for veterans, right, that common ground, once you maybe see somebody's patch and you know, oh, they were in a certain unit, that gives you a shared connection.

10:54And then that's a starting point for a broader relationship. So my personal preference is that people go out and find activities and opportunities that have shared culture or shared activities. And like a simple thing would be if you're going on a hike with people, you're going to bond with them much more than if you're interviewing them over a cocktail. The interview feels uncomfortable. A hike gives you a shared activity. When you don't want to talk, then the hike carries the weight. and of the interaction. And then when you have something to say, the hike also triggers new conversations. And so I'm a huge believer in soccer clubs, chess groups, knitting, whatever it is, reading clubs, starting your own or joining them.

11:45There are tons on meetup.com. They could be virtual, they could be in person, but find those things that it's actually a shared activity, not just, oh, we're inviting a bunch of people to come and be spoken at or inviting a bunch of people for a mixer. You need something that functions as a social catalyst. So I love Fire Nation, how John's talking about bringing experiences into connecting with others. And I can remember so clearly, like I've had people that have, you know, been either fans of the show, part of Fire Nation, or just people who I've been connected with, but never actually met in person before, come down to Puerto Rico to kind of scout it out, see if they might be moving down here or various other things.

12:25And I'm always just like, Hey, meet at my house. And I'm going to take you on a hike that's right around the corner. We're going to go on this little hike up, you know, and have this beautiful panoramic view. And, and what John was talking about is exactly what happens. Cause it's not like we're going to have like a million things to talk about. And now instead of like sitting across from a table and like being afraid of silence, cause we're just going to be staring at each other. We're able to kind of like look around, experience nature, be experiencing the actual hike itself and not have to be forced into this like, you know, banter just for banter's sake.

12:54And if you think Fire Nation that John is even close to dundrop and value bombs, you have another think coming. We're going to be talking about building trust quickly, which is important because we only have so much time. And then it's important to demonstrate Fire Nation when you're trustworthy. So we're going to dive into that as soon as we get back from thanking our sponsors. Welcome to the world of entrepreneurship. More things added to your to-do list every day and less time to accomplish the things that matter most. Add to all that the number of tools it takes to run your coaching programs, online courses, growing team, and your physical product sales, and you've really got your hands full.

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16:05Think of it as life insurance on your terms. Protect your family today. Get up to$2 million in term life insurance coverage in 10 minutes with Ethos. Answer just a few health questions and get your free quote at ethoslife.com slash fire. That's E-T-H-O-S life.com slash fire. So John, we're back. And as I kind of teased before the break, trust is everything. And you personally, as a human being, are a master at building trust quickly. So how can Fire Nation emulate the things that you've learned and build trust quickly with customers or investors or just other human beings, even if we don't have a ton of quote-unquote time?

16:49This is, I think, one of the most interesting things about the way we behave as people. We do almost everything backwards. A simple example is with trust in the business world, the common thing is I want to impress you, I want to build trust with you. I'm going to take you out for an expensive dinner, or I'm going to invite you to a party and give you some swag bag that you're going to throw out or re-gift. Clearly, none of that works. There are small cases where you can gift people things, but it has to be things that they really, really care about. In general, though, what's weird is that the exact opposite works.

17:23And this is called the IKEA effect. It says that we disproportionately care about our IKEA furniture because we had to assemble it. And it turns out that anything we put effort into, we care about disproportionately. And so what we want to do is actually find ways for people to put effort into our relationship so they care more about us, our brand, our company, our product. And just like, John, what you do is you go with people on a hike. That shared effort of the hike actually gets you to care more about each other. At my dinners, we cook dinner together because as people do that, that shared effort causes them to trust more and like each other more.

18:10And the actual mechanism is something called a vulnerability loop. This is the basis for all of trust. And it's wildly simple, and we just need to start paying attention to it. It works like this. John I come to visit you in your home we're going for this hike and I go I am so stressed out I've been working for weeks on end I'm so happy to be here in that moment I've just signaled vulnerability I've said I'm really stressed out and like exhausted now if you made fun of me or ignored me trust would be reduced but if you acknowledge what I just said and respond in kind saying something like, John, I know how you feel.

18:52My book just came out. It was so much work. I know exactly what you're going through. The moment I hear that, we've both then been able to demonstrate vulnerability at the same level. And as a byproduct, we know we're safe with each other and trust exists. And then we can continue to build it higher and higher. When you have a shared activity like cooking, inevitably there are moments where I ask you to pass me something or you help me with a cutting board or if we're on a hike, you give me your hand to pull me up. All those things are openings and closings of vulnerability loops. And so the secret, if you really want to get people to trust you more, is to one, spot it when they have an open vulnerability loop and then complete it.

19:41Number two, if you see that they aren't or don't have any open loops, then you need to be willing to open the loop and have them complete it. And here's like the super pro tip. We're often concerned about bothering people and reaching out and so on. If you're avoid obviously reaching out in the same way that everybody else does, like asking them for coffee and things like that. But it turns out that if I ask you for a really small favor and then a larger favor, you're more likely to give me the larger favor. If I ask you for directions on the street, you probably won't give them to me. But if I first ask for the time and you give that to me, I'm viewed as somebody worthy of your effort and attention.

20:28Then you're willing to give me the directions. So when I approach an investor, a potential dinner guest or business contact, I'll often start off with a really small request. Hey, I noticed that you talk about your favorite books. I've read the three that you suggested. What else should I be checking out? That's a very small lift for an important investor or something like that. Then once you've read it, you can go back and say, wow, that book was phenomenal. Can I also ask X? And so by stacking favors and using this Ikea effect in vulnerability loops, you could build trust very fast with people.

21:09I love that Fire Nation stacking favors. And a couple other things I was taking notes on while John was talking is the opening and closing of the vulnerability loop. I mean, if they open it up, you close that down, you spot their loop and you complete it. And I just love that thought. And now like I can just picture myself in these future scenarios, having great conversations, but really keeping the air out for those vulnerability loops and just simply closing it. And honestly, it's not always going to be a conscious thing that that person identifies. Sometimes it's going to be an unconscious thing where they're just like, wow, that was just like a really refreshing, satisfying hike in chat that I had with John.

21:50And I'm not quite sure why, because it just feels a little bit better, a little bit different than other great talks that I've had or other great chats that I've had. And to me, these are just a couple of things, Fire Nation, that can really enhance and build their trust quickly and demonstrate that you are in fact trustworthy. Now, I want to end today, John, by talking about your book, You're Invited, The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence. Again, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, best-selling book for a reason because you have been doing that. You have been cultivating influence for years now.

22:26And in fact, when I showed up on the call where you were generous enough to allow me to come on, be the featured guest and talk a little bit about the book, and I was just blown away by the number of people and also by just the quality of human beings that were there. So, I mean, you are practicing what you preach, you do it. And this book's success is, to me, just an obvious result of the years you've put in to making this happen. And it's something that you actually shared with me before the interview that I had to agree with for my book is, you know, it's the hardest thing you've ever done.

22:54Just like writing my book was literally the hardest thing I've ever done. I mean, it was 480 hours of doing something that I'm not great at doing, which is writing. You know, I can get on a call with someone like you all day, every day, and just talk the talk and walk the walk, but to sit down for two hours a day and write, man, that was tough for me. So give us a little detail about the book, you know, anything that you think that would really resonate with Fire Nation around that. And of course, let us know the best ways that we can support you and the book. Wow, that's so generous. So the book is essentially about what we've been talking about, that for us to cultivate influence, to really have an impact on the social causes, our careers, our businesses, whatever it is that's important to us.

23:35How do we connect with anybody? How do we build trust quickly? And how do we really foster a sense of belonging around us? Because if we can become masterful at those three things, the only limitation on your influence is then what you want to do with it. And so we break down the science, the stories, tips and tricks, everything that you should know to really be able to impact the quality of your life and to really have those relationships that matter. And so that's what the book is about. I go into everything from the origins of TED and Comic-Con to crazy art heists and serial killers and everything across the board and how it has to do with these topics.

24:19Now as far as support, the biggest thing is obviously picking up 12 copies and giving them to friends. But in all seriousness, I think the message is really important. That's awesome. I want people to be able to have as much success as possible. So picking up a copy and reading it. And if you find that it's great, post a review on Amazon. Well, Fire Nation, my favorite number is 14. So don't pick up 12. Pick up 14 copies. Give them to 13 of your best friends. And of course, keep them for yourself. And just get better at doing all the things that we were talking about here today. And you know this, Fire Nation.

25:01You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with JL and JLD today. So please keep up that heat and head over to eofire.com. Type John, J-O-N in the search bar. And his show notes page will pop right up. And again, his book, You're Invited, The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence, is available now. John, thank you for sharing your truth, your value, your knowledge with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Hey, Fire Nation. Today's value bomb content was brought to you by John and Fire Nation. Are you ready to rock your very own podcast?

25:40I mean, your own podcast? check out our free podcasting course where I teach you how to both create and launch your podcast for free. Freepodcastcourse.com. Freepodcastcourse.com. I will catch you there or I'll catch you on the flip side. Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Ever notice how the smallest changes can have the biggest impact? On Nudge, you learn simple evidence-backed tips to help you kick bad habits, get a raise, and grow a business. Oh, and it's the UK's Fast Growing Business Podcast. A recent episode on how to win any argument shares decade-long research into persuasion from a world-leading neuroscientist.