The Passion that Comes from Losing Everything with Eric Murphy & Steven Dufresne

0:02Who's ready to rock today, Fire Nation? JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Fire, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like Side Hustle Pro. Today, we'll be breaking down the passion that comes from losing everything. And to drop these value bombs, I have brought Eric Murphy and Stephen Dufresne into EO Fire Studios. Anthro's inventor, Stephen, and co-founder, Eric, have dedicated their professional lives to using science and research to help the world fix their sit. And today, Fire Nation, we'll talk about sitting health.

0:39We'll talk about the fallacy behind the phrase, sitting is the new smoking. We'll talk about the unspoken consequences of standing. We'll talk about losing everything and the passion that comes with that and so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Eric, Stephen, and our sponsors. The Gold Digger Podcast, hosted by Jenna Kuchar, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. The Gold Digger podcast helps you discover your dream career with productivity tips, social strategies, business hacks, inspirational stories, and so much more.

1:10One of my favorite recent episodes is titled How I've Built an Unmatched Team Culture, an insanely important topic for all business owners to dive into. Listen to Gold Digger wherever you get your podcasts. Many EO Fire listeners have launched non-food franchises and Franbridge Consulting has guided them. Franbridge's founder and frequent EO Fire guest, John Ostenson, has done more placements than any other in the country, and his service is free. Sign up for a consultation with John or get a copy of his book, Non-Food Franchising, at FranBridgeConsulting.com. All right, Fire Nation, we're going to dive in, and we're going to be talking today about the passion that comes from losing everything.

1:51But before we get into that, which is going to be quite a spectacular story, I do want to start with one of our two guests today, Steve, because he actually has a surprising background that led to a passion for sitting health. That means not standing, Fire Nation, but sitting down, as I'm actually doing right now. So Steve, take it away, brother. Thank you very much for having us on the show for starters, man. Love what you're doing here. Thank you. We've got an interesting topic of what makes us unique in its sitting. Everybody does it. And believe it or not, There's a serious science behind it, and that's what kind of makes us unique.

2:30I think we all kind of just naturally take for granted that we sit on a couch, on a chair, on a bus, on a train, lean up against the wall, squatting down. I mean, we all sit and we just do it organically without thinking twice about it. But a few of us really had to learn the craft of sitting, and that's what makes us really unique. And it's because we worked for the wheelchair industry, developing seating equipment very specifically. Not the chairs, not the power and manual chairs, just everything that touches the wheelchair user. And that's cushions, backs, head supports, little lateral supports that hold you upright, arm supports to pad your armrests.

3:13Maybe if you lost a limb and you only had your upper limb on your right leg, we make pads to support what's left there. I mean, we made seating products to go on every square inch of the human body to keep you safe and comfortable if you literally had to sit for a living. So for us, designing seating is literally life or death statement. I mean, if you do it wrong and I put you on the wrong cushion, John, and you've got to sit in it for 8, 10, 12, 18 hours a day and it gives you a pressure injury and you get a wound and then you go to the hospital and they try and treat it and they give you a surgery.

3:49and you got to stay in that facility for two, three, four months and maybe you get a staph infection. And the very unfortunate part that I don't even like having to say out loud is that you die. You can die from it. So sitting for us is a very serious craft. It's a serious craft. I mean, Fire Nation, we do so much sitting. And the reality is if you're doing it wrong, it's going to add up to such bad juju, not even just in the far term and years on the road, but in the short term as well. And so I want to move on to our other guest who I also gave an introduction to, Eric, who is going to talk to us about this phrase.

4:30And a lot of us have heard this, sitting is the new smoking. It's like this very dramatic phrase. And Eric, you're actually here to share why this is a fallacy. So take it away, brother. Thanks, GLD. Good to be here. Yeah, this is as CMO and somebody who is passionate about marketing, the sensationalized phrases like this are just something that I find fascinating. So I can see how this would happen being in the marketing department and trying to take some interesting research that maybe is a little too technical and then take it to the point where this is going to grab somebody's attention and this is going to be something interesting to hear.

5:14But technically, this statement should say a sedentary lifestyle in which you are inactive and do not move throughout the day is associated with numerous health risks. But that's not a very sexy statement. So you can imagine where they came up with, well, how about sitting is the new smoking. And, you know, it's been I think it's blown up bigger than anybody expected. You go anywhere and everywhere. where we've had a whole massive standing desk movement that has been a result of this statement. But since then, what does the actual research say? It's not anywhere close to sitting as the new smoking is the truth.

5:57The National Institute of Health actually called this statement completely unwarranted and misleading. And I think the really unfortunate thing is we all sit. There's no getting around it. Some sit less than others, and we have been made to feel guilty about sitting. And the reality of it is that sitting is not bad for you. Sitting poorly, sitting with poor posture, that is very bad for you. But if you sit, and you sit well, and you sit in something that supports your body, and our philosophy is when you do that, you're able to focus, you're able to get more done, and you're able to use that extra time that you could have wasted by being unproductive and sitting in a poor posture and you're able to use that time to then go for a walk, get your workout in, and remain active.

6:53So it's really this combination of when you sit, you sit properly, you sit with good posture, you sit in something that supports you, and then you mirror that or complement that with staying active throughout the day. And if you can do that, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting. And actually, in some cases, it's better to sit than the alternative. I mean, I love this conversation because I am actually a big proponent of the phrase, everything in moderation, even moderation. And what does that mean to me? It means, hey, every now and then, I'm just gonna down a whole pint of Ben & Jerry's, just every now and then.

7:33Because everything in moderation, even moderation. So sometimes I'm not going to be moderate. I'm going to go all in because that's just the world that I want to live in. So I love that. And Steve, I want to talk about the unspoken consequences of standing. Because you had those individuals that Eric was just mentioning, poo-pooing about sitting is a new smoking and blah, blah, blah. But there's also unspoken consequences about standing an excessive amount. So let's talk about those. When people ask us about our product, right? And they know that we're making a chair, they almost have to say because sitting is the new smoking right i guess you got to do something better to save people right i'm glad you guys are doing it's like people talk about sitting is the new smoking just like you know the average conversation leads to the weather first right it's the same thing and uh what's really interesting is that kind of like the the forefront of where research for we'll call it sitting research and standing research or sitting versus standing research is being done at the University of Waterloo up in Canada.

8:31And these guys are doing some amazing things up there and have been doing it for a long time. We have nothing to do with it. We're just reading the work that they're doing up there. And they've been trying to crack the code on this ratio of, okay, if sitting's bad or sitting's good in moderation, John, just like Ben and Jerry's, standing's good in moderation. Can somebody just tell me how much I should or shouldn't do so I can be doing the best that I can. Just give me the recipe. And that's what they're trying to do. And in this last study that they did, they had a pretty good participant size.

9:03And what they found out is that everybody was forced to sit a certain amount of time and then stand a certain amount of time. And at the end of the study or beginning of the study, let me rephrase, nobody had back pain. At the end of the study, for those that had been asked to stand more than two hours a day, 50 % of the study group had developed ongoing back pain. Not like I got a little muscle hole or I'm achy. They developed a back problem, says them, because standing too long or standing more than you sit isn't a good ratio. They don't know what it is right now. They're trying to work through that, and they're trying to correlate the whys behind it.

9:44What they think is that when you guys stand, everybody, if you sit down, you're relaxed. It's the only thing you really have on your neck muscles, right? So in your arms, maybe you're holding it up on your desk to task. But when you stand, how many muscles and ligaments are on from the floor to your head to make you stand up and stand up right? And then your back gets tired and you slouch forward and you lean on your desk. And then your stomach gets a little tired. So then you sag your back even more. And now you're really leaning on the desks. And you're standing in a worse posture than you ever would have sat in.

10:15and they believe that ratio of, is sitting worse than standing? I hate to say it, everybody out there in this nation, but the evidence is pointing that standing is a little trickier to do longer than sitting. So as Eric said, everything in moderation, but do it your best you can. So if you're asking me what my opinion is on the research, I'd say, stand until your posture starts to suck and then sit down and sit well while you're doing it. And then when something hurts or aches, get up and move around and start to stand all over again. Listen to your body. I love that. And actually I have a word that I really focus on every single year.

10:52And a couple of years ago, the word was breathe. Last year, my word was actually balance. And I just love being able to live a life of balance. And balance means I will be sitting for long periods of time and then I will be standing for long periods of time. And maybe long isn't even the right word, but for a balanced period of time because I don't want to be in either or position in extreme amounts for the reasons we've been talking about. Now, before we take a break, I know, Eric, you wanted to throw something in here. So go ahead. I was just going to say, and then you talk about how realistic is it that somebody will get a standing desk and stand for half or more of their workday.

11:31And some of the data points to that out of those people who have standing desks, they only stand around 20 % of the time. So even the people who have gone to the trouble to get a desk who want to stand and are trying to be healthier because they've heard sitting is the new smoking. Even those people are only standing about 20 % of the day. So what, you know, what is their solution for the rest of the day? Love that. And Fire Nation, a lot to talk about. And what we're actually going to be diving into when we get back from our break is specifically the passion that comes from losing everything.

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14:04More and more entrepreneurs and investors are discovering the awesome franchise opportunities that exist outside of food. Franchising can simply be the better path, and interest in franchising is at an all-time high. Lucky for you, John Austinson, founder of Franbridge Consulting and a frequent EO Fire guest, is here to help you explore the premier franchise opportunities today. John and his Franbridge Consulting team are part of the largest brokerage in the US and have vetted the market thoroughly. Franbridge is hands down the premier source for the best opportunities in the non-food franchise world.

14:35They represent every type of non-food franchise from healthcare to dumpsters, youth sports to business services, specialized senior care to pet grooming to insulation and floor coatings. John has served as an Inc. 500 franchisor, a multi-brand franchisee, and he does more placements than any other in the country. Sign up for a free consultation call with John today or get a free copy of his book, Non-Food Franchising, at FranBridgeConsulting.com. That's FranBridgeConsulting.com. Steve, we're back. And as I mentioned before the break, we're talking about the passion that comes from losing everything.

15:11And you lost everything and you learned some powerful entrepreneurial lessons in that process. Tell us more. Everyone's kind of got their unique story of entrepreneurship, right? And mine kind of started like heavy. I had regular jobs through my mid-20s and mid to late 20s, I decided to go and start my own company. It was developing a power wheelchair. And very similar to what I'm trying to do in this current company, it's how can I innovate in that space to the nth degree? I mean, we had a bunch of very, very unique things that nobody else is doing. And we were really excited about what we did.

15:45We had commercials going, infomercials going up and down the East Coast, kind of like the scooter store and the hover around. We had sales going. We were set up in the VA hospital system. I mean, we did everything right. And we were really excited and proud of where we got to. And in doing so, I took a moment in time and was reading Inc. Magazine. It was the Entrepreneur of the Year was Ken Hendricks. He's the owner of ABC Supply, a roofing company. So if you guys are out there in the U.S. and you see red, white, and blue trucks and it says ABC on it, that was the guy. And I said, hey, you know, the old handwritten letter where you put a stamp on it.

16:21Remember that? And you send it, no email. And he answered it. And he called me back and said, hey, Steve, I got your letter. And I love what you put in here. I was asking him questions about banking and his relationship. And he goes, is it true about your wheelchair company? You're here and here and you got this much done? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he asked me some business questions. He goes, it says here that your uncle was a roofer, your Uncle Bob, the one you kind of that inspired you to build this chair. And for the listeners, my uncle has a disability. He's been in a power chair my entire life.

16:49So I've been surrounded by it. I see it as just, I guess, normal. So I told him that in a letter too. And he's kind of blown away, one, that he was a roofer. Number two, he liked my spirit of trying to help others. And he said, let's do this. I'd like to buy your partners out. I want to move you down here. I love your story. Let's grow this thing. Let's take it to the moon. And you guys that are listening, I mean, you want to talk about a great entrepreneur story. I mean, it's gold. And what happened was we spent about nine months to get through all that due diligence. And he calls me literally a week before the deal is going down.

17:28We're going to sign the documents. It was right before Christmas. Hey, Steve, I'm excited to tell you we're done. And I can't wait to put this behind us and move on together. So have a great holiday. And I'll catch you next week. Thanks, Ken. Love you. Big hugs. Hang up the phone. And Ken had a very unfortunate accident at his house. It was an addition put on his house, and he stepped somewhere where he shouldn't have, and he fell through a hole in the floor, and he accidentally had a very tragic accidental death. And as you could imagine, that changed everything for him, his family, and for us as well, because we were in that 11th hour of 1159, as a matter of fact, of having a deal done.

18:13and it took about six months for his holding company to kind of dig out of what does this mean for his bigger company and all the other companies he owned i was the kind of last kid on the list and and it turned out that they said we can't go on we don't want to go on we're so sorry but um we can't fund this but enough time had passed that it was too late the burn rate was too high and i was upside down and inside out and it's 2009 so i lost everything homeless no car no house, no job, no checking, no savings. Had to drive both my vehicles down to the auction for the bank and was homeless. I don't want to say overnight, but it sure felt like it was pretty quick to go from feeling on top of the world to the bottom.

18:56And everybody asked, so what'd you do? How'd you come back from that? And I hope it doesn't sound corny, but someone stole my cheese. and if you guys haven't read that book, Who Moved My Cheese, go get after it because that's what you need to do right then and there. You need to go quickly find your next thing. After you're done working for the day, you can think about what went wrong and what you're sad about what didn't go wrong, right? But go find that next job and go find the next hunk of cheese so that you can live and move on. And that's what I did. I just took every and any job that I could and dug out doing side jobs, whatever.

19:32I had to live. I had to eat. And after that, though, I slowly started building and got absorbed into this medical industry, into designing seating for wheelchairs. And you can imagine from the opening story where that led to me being on the show and coming back from the depths of homelessness. And who moved my cheese? Hey, everybody, if you're listening and you got kicked in the teeth, lift yourself up, go find that new hunk of cheese. Fire Nation, I hope you're resonating with this story because the reality is this. We're going to have the ups and the downs on this entrepreneurial journey, just on the life journey.

20:10I mean, we had something unbelievably tragic happen to one of my neighbors literally just last week. And you want to talk about upending, it just happens. These things tragically happen. And what do you have to do except say, hey, I'm going to move forward in the best way that I can. And I love the passion that you have that came from losing everything, Steve. So thank you for telling that story because I know it's not always easy to relive those times, relive those moments, because those emotions, those stressors, they do come back. So, man, that was powerful. And, you know, we can definitely kind of, you know, ping back to that as we have our big closing coming up here at the end.

20:50But before we do, I want to make a little bit of a transition because we are here talking about entrepreneurial things, business things. And Eric, you actually love pointing to the mattress industry as an industry that just gets it. What do you mean by that? When you think about sitting and how much we sit throughout the course of our life and through a day, right? If you work eight hours a day and your listeners, they take care of themselves, they are going to live longer than most people. So if you think you're going to live 100 years, you're going to sit 33 years of your life. It's a staggering number.

21:35And so when you start thinking about it that way and you think about what the mattress industry has done in educating the consumer and educating us on the importance of getting a good night's sleep, the innovation in that space, they've done such a great job that you can go to the same person and say, hey, what did you spend on your mattress? And a lot of times people will say, oh, you know, I invested and use the word invested. $25 ,000,$3 ,500,$5 ,000 on that mattress because they really understood the importance of that good night's sleep to their health. And then you can turn around and ask that same person, what did you spend on your office chair?

22:20And they're like, I don't know. I think I picked it up at Staples or something, a hundred bucks or whatever. And so for us entering this new space, we look at the mattress industry and say, wow, they've done a great job of conveying the importance of investing in your health within this product category. And for us, understanding and knowing the importance of posture and the importance of sitting health, we think that there's an opportunity to do the same thing in the office furniture, the office chair space. And so it's just a good, again, as a marketing guy, you're always looking at parallel industries, parallel spaces, and what are they doing?

23:05And has it been applied to the area that you're in? And, you know, the mattress industry, I think we can all agree, has just done a, has done a great job from a marketing perspective and, and, and showing the value that their products have to offer. I think it's so true. I mean, I can just remember the last few times I've been into a mattress store and they're just like, do you realize how much time of your life you spend sleeping? Like how, How do you feel when you wake up and you're all achy and tight and in pain and uncomfortable, opposed to that time that you woke up and you just felt like you had a fantastic night's sleep and you could go run a marathon right away and yada, yada.

23:43Well, let me tell you, the mattress plays a huge role in you feeling one of those two ways. And it's so good. And you can learn a lot from that for your business as well. And Steve, I want to talk about the Anthros chair because I'm actually sitting in one as we speak right now. I'm doing a little butt swivel right now. I've got the lumbar that I'm twisting. It's just feeling so good on my lower back. Share what makes Anthros different as well as these really cool guarantees that you provide. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for asking. And thanks for giving the chair a sit. I'm glad it's going so well for you.

24:20So well. You guys listening, this is one of those where I'm going to describe something that you just got to feel for yourself. But the anthros principle of design was literally how do we make every single part of your body feel the least amount of pain throughout the day? And we started from the ground up. And John's chair doesn't swivel. It doesn't have a five-spoke base. Everybody else's chair that you're sitting on right now while you're listening has a five-spoke base, and you can spin left or right. John's is fixed. He's got a four-spoke base. And when he moves forwards and backwards in and out of the desk, the base follows the chair.

24:55Or when he spins and rotates to right or left to get out of the chair, it never hits his feet. It's a little pain point. And literally from the ground up, when you move your current chair, it whacks in the heels. It runs your shoe over. It scuffs your shoes or damages your high heels. And you do this, like I call it the caster dance, where you're getting out of the way of the legs. Or you pull it in and you smack the base. You kick it to straighten it out the way that you want. because some of us have OCD where we want our legs on our chairs, either one forwards or two forwards. But that's just one thing that's different right out of the chute.

25:29And it was just to make your feet or your ankles not get hurt. And go up to the cushion. John, you're sitting on the highest performing cushion on the planet. I mean, when we score that cushion with all the technical design benchmarks of what we did for that life or death sitting, you're sitting on one of the highest performing cushions on the planet. And there's a bunch of technology in there. My tushy is happy. Yeah, most people, when they describe it, they just say, it feels like I'm sitting on a cloud. But a supportive cloud. Yeah. And then last but not least are those two backs. And we have two backs that you move independent from one another.