Unleash The Power of Your Second in Command with Cameron Herold

0:01Light that spark fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with great shows like duct tape marketing. Today, we'll be breaking down how to unleash the power of your second in command. To drop these value bombs, I brought Cameron Herald into EO Fire Studios. Cameron is a CEO, whisperer, business coach, author of six books, speaker on all seven continents, and COO Alliance founder. In today, Fire Nation, we'll talk about why we want our second in command to have power. We'll talk about what the COO is, their point of existence work-wise.

0:35We'll talk about what we need in a COO, how to find the right one, how to let go of the reins, and so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Cameron and our sponsors. As business owners, it's part of our job to stay ahead of the curve. And with AI stealing the show these days, it's time to study up. But where do you even start? Start with HubSpot. HubSpot's AI power tools, including their content assistant and and ChatSpot are changing the way you create content and communicate and serve your customers. Take HubSpot's content assistant as an example. It helps you brainstorm, create, and share content in no time, and you can do it all right inside their super easy-to-use CRM platform.

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1:56It's month to month and less money than an average minimum wage employee. Schedule your free consultation today at ThriveTimeShow.com. Cameron, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. Oh, hey, Fire Nation. Good to be back on the show again. And JLD, nice to chat with you again too. Wow. One thing that I guess most people would disagree with that I think is important to be successful it's that you don't actually have to work hard to be successful that you have to work smart and I know that we probably know that to be true but I actually really mean it um you know we've all seen the fly trying to work really hard to get out the window and it keeps kind of banging its head on the window I was never the smartest kid in the school in fact I was a very very average I got kind of mid-60s.

2:51I think I had a 2.3 GPA. So the harder I worked, the worse my grades always were. So I realized very early on, I didn't have to work hard. I had to figure out the cheat sheets. I had to find the shortcuts. I had to find the TA that could help me. I had to find the kids that could help me figure it out. I had to pay people to do some assignments. And I began this kind of learning that it was about finding the shortcuts, finding the easier path. So my R &D stands for rip off and duplicate. I find the companies that have done a great job with a lot of really great things. And I just do what they're doing.

3:26Because for me, momentum creates momentum, not perfection and not being the smartest person in the room and not working hard. Well, whatever you're doing is working. And Fire Nation, this has been the third time that Cameron has graced us with his presence on Entrepreneurs on Fire. I've been fortunate enough to be able to hang out with him in person multiple times. In fact, I'm going to tell a little Cameron story. I'm not even sure if he remembers this. but we were hanging out at a conference having some fun yes a couple drinks may maybe uh have had and i think i was talking i don't remember honestly because this was years ago but if it's like maybe like machu picchu or columbia it's like someplace i wanted to travel in the and south america and camera just looks at me dead dead straight and he just goes i'll go with you tomorrow like let's go and to me that's like said so much about him because he just he's an actor i mean he's an active person like he'll just do something he's an action taker he will take action.

4:18And the R &D thing is so cool, the ripoff and duplicate. I mean, he'll just take action and see if something works. And I've definitely admired that about you over the years, for sure. Thank you. Yeah. And today we're talking about unleashing the power of your second in command. And I just want to know, first off, why do we want our second in command to have any power whatsoever? Well, really, at the end of the day, they're almost our yin and yang, right? As the entrepreneur, as the CEO of a company, we need someone who can leverage us, who can take a lot of the stuff off our plate that isn't, you know, serving us, that is draining us of energy that maybe we're not great at so that we can spend more time working in our unique ability.

5:01We need that kind of MVP and partner to really help us make our dreams happen. I think it was Thomas Edison who said, vision without execution is hallucination. And many of these entrepreneurs, you know, We're both one, and your entire tribe is the entrepreneurs. We have all these amazing ideas, but we don't necessarily have the skills or the time or the bandwidth or the money even to put all that stuff in place. So the second command can help us get that stuff done, can help us get to our vision faster. And they can also free up our time to give us a life. At the end of the day, we only start a company for one of three reasons.

5:35To give us money, to give us time, or to put our flag in the ground or put a stake in the ground to say that we did it. And if we've done it, if we're feeling good, that we're feeling proud that we've built a business and we've got enough cash coming in, well then getting that second in command can actually give you a bunch of free time back so that you can actually engage in everything else that's important in life. I've interviewed over 3 ,800 successful entrepreneurs now and I can tell you by far, the reason most people became an entrepreneur was because they wanted freedom. Not because they wanted to be chained to a desk or chained to a computer or chained to whatever new job or prison they're going to create.

6:13They wanted time freedom, location freedom, energy freedom. So Fire Nation, think about this when it comes to your second in command. We're going to say these three letters quite a bit today. That's COO. So Cameron, what is a COO and what is their point of existence work-wise? Great question. And so I have an organization called the COO Alliance and I run a podcast called the Second in Command Podcast. And the reason for me calling my newest book, The Second in Command, what I called it was you could have a second in command that might be an operations manager or maybe a director of ops or a VP of operations.

6:50Maybe it's a president or a general manager or a COO. So the higher the title usually denotes more responsibility, more autonomy in the role that they're in, and a higher level of strategy that they can bring into the business, and usually a higher level of wisdom and experience of having been there. Sadly, over the last 20 years, many, many entrepreneurial companies have given out titles that are far too big, far too early. And they end up putting these titles on people that are, you know, they call them a COO, but they're paying them 120 grand a year. That's at best a director of operations.

7:26And what happens is these employees of yours end up going out and they do salary searches on Indeed and Glassdoor. They just go out and Google like, what should a COO make? Oh, a COO should make 350 grand a year. why am I being paid 120? Well, because you're not really a COO. So the question, I guess, is really what's a second in command? The second in command has to be really good at the stuff that the entrepreneur sucks at. The second in command has to really love to work on the areas that drain the CEO or drain the entrepreneur of energy. And that's the real counterbalance in the yin and yang.

8:00So it's very different of the COO role versus other C-level or other heads of business areas, you could take the head of marketing for most companies and they could be the head of marketing for another company. Or you could take the head of finance, whether it's a CFO or VP of finance, and they could probably be the head of finance for most companies. The reason the COO role or the second in command is so different is we have to be the balance for everything that the entrepreneur is not good at. So I would have been a horrible COO for most of our members of the COO alliance, most of their companies, because I wouldn't be a great balance for their CEO.

8:37And then the last part of this is, I think a second in command is there for a reason or a season, but not necessarily the lifetime. And it's because as a company continues to scale, at some point, it usually outstrips the skill level of that second in command. So I was a great COO for 1-800-GOT-JUNK from 2 million to 100 million, but I would have been horrible from the 100 million to the billion mark, just as their current COO, Eric Church, who's been there from about the 100 million to the 450 million mark. He would have been horrible in the first six years because he didn't have the right skill set for what was needed in the earlier stages.

9:16So there's a whole bunch of unique parts that make up this COO or second-in-command role. So there's a lot that I love about this. I mean, one thing I think is really powerful for you, Fire Nation, is to look at Cameron. I mean, he could do pretty much anything at this stage in his career, but he chose to niche down and to focus on the second in command, on the COO. I mean, he wrote a book about it, The Second in Command, podcast about it, same name. And this is what successful entrepreneurs do. They discover a niche, they become the best at solving problems that exist in that niche. And then they just keep talking about it over and over again.

9:55So let's keep talking about it now, Cameron, because I want to know, how does Fire Nation know if they are in need of a COO? When do those flags come up? Great question. Yeah. So what you start bumping up into, anybody listening, if you feel a little bit overwhelmed in the day-to-day, that might mean you need a second in command. If you feel like you don't have enough time to work on the core projects, that might mean you need one. If you actually realize that you're too busy working in the business and you don't have time to grow your people, either to grow their skills, to mentor them, to coach them, to grow their confidence.

10:31If you're really just pushing to get stuff done, but you're not there growing and supporting your direct reports, that's usually a great indication that you might need a COO as well. But before you go and hire the second in command, the first key role that you really need to make sure you have is an executive assistant. It's that old line that if you don't have an executive assistant, you are one. First thing we need to do is get all the admin off of our plates to free up our time. But then if you really are bumping into those key points I pointed out, it's usually a great indication that that second in command can come and help you.

11:02Another kind of reason that you might need one is in a turnaround situation. Maybe you're just acquiring a couple of companies and you're going through a large inflection point. or maybe you realize that you just have a team of people that you don't necessarily have the skillset to oversee and that can actually be a good point to bring in a second in command as well. Fire Nation, feeling overwhelmed, lacking time, working in the business instead of on the business. I know a lot of people complain about that a lot. I see your comments. I see your emails to me. This could be a reason why you need a COO and if this quote doesn't strike your core, I don't know what will.

11:38if you don't have an executive assistant, you are one. I mean, think about that, Fire Nation. Think about those words. And we have a lot to talk about on this topic. When we get back from thanking our sponsors. Success Story, hosted by Scott D. Clary, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Success Story features Q &A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, and conversations on sales, marketing, business, startups, and entrepreneurship. One of Scott's recent episodes was with none other than Jack Canfield, where they discuss adapting to life's twists and turns.

12:14Listen to Success Story wherever you get your podcasts. Are you ready to grow your business now? What if you could learn the proven systems and processes that have been used to grow thousands of multimillion-dollar success stories? At Thrivetimeshow.com, see testimonials of how Clay Clark's proven business coaching has helped over 2 ,000 clients to increase profitability dramatically. Clay's proven business coaching program is month to month and less money than hiring a minimum wage employee. Sound too good to be true? Go to Thrivetimeshow.com to see over 2 ,000 documented success stories. Because Clay only takes on 160 clients, he personally designs your business plan for you.

12:51Then Clay's team of talented designers, videographers, web developers, workflow mappers, and accounting coaches will help you implement that proven plan. See over 2 ,000 verified success stories and schedule your free 101 13-point assessment with Mr. Clay Clark himself today at Thrivetimeshow.com. Knowledge will not attract money unless it is organized and directed through practical plans of action. Become the next success story. Schedule your free 13-point assessment today at Thrivetimeshow.com. Cameron, we're back. And obviously, you've convinced me. I've had an executive assistant for years.

13:26I've had a COO for a long time, but I want Fire Nation to be convinced as well. And I think they are. So let's now talk about how can they find the right COO? Yeah. So the way that you find them is first by understanding who you are, right? So it's truly, truly understanding yourself as a leader. What areas of the business do you fire you up, right? What areas do you get energized on when you work? What areas of the business drain you? What parts of your role or parts of the business do you have really good domain expertise that you love to work on and that you're really, really good at? And what areas of the business do you kind of suck at?

14:03And you start to divide and conquer up these roles a little bit. And when you've divided them, you can start to see what that other person is going to be doing. So that's the starting point is what are you going to do and what are they going to do? Secondly is to really understand and commit to your company's core values because you need to hire a second in command who comes in and will absolutely obsess over the same core values that you do in your organization. You don't want somebody who aspires to them, but someone who already lives those core values. And then third is you're looking for someone whose behavioral traits really match yours as the CEO.

14:37And you're not looking for someone with the same DNA as you, You're not looking for someone with the same personality profile. Rather, you're looking for someone whose behavioral traits complement yours. So if you're a very kind of scattered, big picture, super entrepreneurial, you know, make it up on the fly CEO, you might want a COO who is more detail oriented, more process oriented. If you're a CEO who's very technology-minded, like a Tobias Luque from Shopify, who's very tech and IT, you might want a COO who's very outward-facing, very culture, biz dev, PR and marketing, like Harley Finkelstein, the COO at Shopify is.

15:16So it just really depends. It's first starting, what do I look like? Who am I as the CEO? And that shows me what I'm then out there looking for as that second in command. The next thing that I try to do is write a job description that really massively polarizes anyone reading it. So that half of the people that read the job description are like, there's no way I would want to work for you. Great. And then the other half are like, wow, this sounds like my total dream job. It sounds super challenging. This is exactly what I'm up for. And you can attract those people in like a magnet. And then it's all about sharing those job postings with search firms.

15:52their best second-in-commands are never out looking for a job. They're not on industry job boards. They're not on Indeed or Glassdoor. They're not even noticing jobs being posted on social media. You kind of need to get a couple of really good search firms engaged, and you go and poach them. Just like a sports team has recruiters that are always trying to recruit people away from a hockey team, nobody's out there looking where they're going to move to the next hockey team or football team or baseball team. Fire Nation, a lot of things I love about that. The one thing that I wrote down that I think is a key repeater, be polarizing.

16:29You want people to be a heck yes or an absolute no. That's just right off the bat because otherwise you're bringing the wrong person in if it's not one of those two. So think about this, Fire Nation. Most entrepreneurs are type A individuals. If you're listening to this, you probably are. I am. Most of you are micromanagers. I have definitely been known to be that in the past. So Cameron, how the heck do we let go of the reins? Well, and it's key. You're asking some of the great questions. One of the things you want to do is let go, but you don't want to abdicate, right? You don't want to dump it on their plates and walk away and never check in.

17:05So one of the first things we need to do with the COO, especially when they come in from the external, right? So you have two types of COOs. You have one that's an internal person that you're going to promote. That's usually like an MVP or somebody you need to handcuff in the company, or you have the external person that you're bringing in, and they're coming in from the outside, and they're coming in over top of a group of people that have already been there. So you need to make sure that you bring them into and get them started in that role, get them up to speed. Before you dump a lot of the areas onto their plate, you need to integrate them into the company, the culture.

17:38They get to know everybody. They spend a couple of months really, really learning the business and the industry and the people, and then you can slowly start to let go. But I like the saying of inspect what you expect, that as the CEO, you're constantly kind of digging in and looking to see if you can kind of, if the work is being done like you need it to be versus you just dumping it on their plate and hoping that it gets done. So Cameron, Captain Planet is known to say that with our powers combined, we can change the world. How can we work with our COO to optimize their strengths as well as the overall business that we're running?

18:18Treat it like a business marriage, right? Let's say that you're a husband and wife and you're raising a traditional family. It's really how does the husband and wife get together to raise the family, right? How do you divide and conquer on roles and responsibilities? How do you actually tag team and work to raise the kids? How do you have healthy communication in place that you can, you know, build each other up and beat each other's wings? How do you, you know, have good times to actually have good debate and argue and fight, but not in front of the children, right, to get some of that stress out in the debate?

18:50So it's creating a lot of those same systems are how you're going to get the most out of having a strong second in command. And then it's secondly realizing the role of the COO is to make the CEO look good, right? It's to shine the spotlight on the CEO to make them iconic. And then behind the scenes, the CEO's job is to shine the spotlight on the COO to say things like, hey, they have to be the hard ass. I need them to roll out the tough decisions. So you're constantly making each other look good, right? I remember when my dad would come home, my mom would be like, oh, you're in trouble. Go to your room.

19:24Wait till your dad gets home in two hours. And I would sit there patiently waiting, knowing my dad was probably going to spank me. And then 30 minutes after the little spanking would happen, my mom would come into my bedroom and I'd be sitting there pissed off. And she'd say, you know, your dad loves you. I just, he needs to be the hard, you know, the bad cop. He needs to be able to show you this. So she was always covering for him and he was always covering for her. Fire Nation, I want to know one thing as you're listening to this. Do you now understand the need for a second in command? Do you understand the power of having the right COO?

19:57Cameron, you have a book, The Second in Commands. You have a podcast, Second in Commands. Tell us how Fire Nation can connect more with you, learn more from you around this topic. Give us a call to action. Oh, for sure. And if you're doing at least 5 million or greater in revenue, definitely check out the COO Alliance as well. All six of my books are available on Amazon, Audible, and iTunes. And then, yeah, you definitely want to subscribe to the Second in Command podcast. I never interview the CEO. I only interview their second in command. I love that. So Fire Nation, Second in Command, that's a book.

20:33Second in Command, that's a podcast. The COO Alliance, you're doing 5 million or more. You need to get over there. Cameron, give us one wrap-up, key takeaway. You want to make sure Fire Nation walks off into the sunset thinking about tonight. Yeah, this will rattle them. None of this actually matters. This is just what we do to make money. At the end of the day, we're all just walking each other home. So we got to enjoy the journey, have some fun, laugh a little bit, spend time with the people that matter most, because this is just what we do to pay our bills. And that sinks back to the story that I told about Cameron at the beginning.

21:04He was so real when he said, let's go, like, let's go. And I know for a fact, if I wasn't such a wimp, that we would have taken that trip and it'd been pretty interesting. So Cameron, thank you. And Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with CH and JLD today, so keep up the heat. If you have any direct questions for Cameron, find this episode on the podcast app, Panopolo, post a comment, get the conversation rolling, eofire.com, type Cameron in the search bar. This show notes page will pop up with links to everything we talked about, his book, his podcast, the COO Alliance.

21:38As well, by the way, as the other two interviews we've done over the years, the last one back in 2019, and the one was many years actually before that because we just had our 10-year celebration of entrepreneurs on fire cameras. That was pretty exciting, but we can get all three of those episodes at eofire.com. Use the search bar, Cameron, and they'll pop right up. All great conversations. Cameron, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute your brother and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Hey, Fire Nation, a big thank you to Cameron and our sponsors for sponsoring today's episode.

22:16And if you've ever wanted to accomplish a goal in 100 days, the Freedom Journal is for you. Visit thefreedomjournal.com. Get going on your 100-day goal challenge and I'll catch you there or I'll catch you on the flip side. Success Story, hosted by Scott D. Clary, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Success Story features Q &A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, and conversations on sales, marketing, business startups, and entrepreneurship. One of Scott's recent episodes was with none other than Jack Canfield, where they discuss adapting to life's twists and turns.

22:52Listen to Success Story wherever you get your podcasts. Is this your year? Visit thrivetimeshow.com to see testimonials of how Clay Clark's business coaching has helped over 2 ,000 entrepreneurs to dramatically increase profitability. It's month to month and less money than an average minimum wage employee. Schedule your free consultation today at thrivetimeshow.com.