Using Content to Grow a Loyal Audience with Joe Pulizzi: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:01Light that spark fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like DTC Pod. Today, we're pulling a classic episode from the archives, and we'll be breaking down how to use content to grow a loyal audience. To drop these value bombs, I brought to Joe Polizzi in the EO Fire Studios. Joe is the Amazon bestselling author of Content Inc, Killing Marketing, and Epic Content Marketing, which was named a must-read business book by Fortune Magazine. And Fire Air Nation, today's value bombs are that we're all creating content in some way.

0:36Do a basic content audit. Be lean and know what it takes to build a viable audience and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Joe and our sponsors. The Next Wave, your chief AI officer, hosted by Matt Wolfe and Nathan Lands, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Matt and Nathan are leading AI creators in your guiding light in the AI and technology frontier. AI technology is transforming the way we do business and the media landscape is fragmented. The Next Wave strives to be the leading podcast on AI technology and how you can apply it to growing your business.

1:14Listen to The Next Wave wherever you get your podcasts. Joe, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. What's up, JLD Fire Nation? It's great to be back on the wonderful show that you have. Something I believe, I think that content entrepreneurs are playing fool's gold when they think they can be everywhere their customers are at online. I think that's a big mistake. I'm a big believer in focus. We see that in the data. We see that when we talk to entrepreneurs about creating their own content empires. And there's too many content creators out there that are just feeling they got to be everywhere and they're making a huge mistake right now.

1:57One mile wide and one inch deep never works, Fire Nation. One inch wide, a mile deep, you have a chance on winning. And this is pretty crazy, man. The first edition of Content Inc. came out in 2015. I mean, I remember interviewing you about this six years ago. And as Joe and I were talking Fire Nation pre-interview, this is actually his fifth appearance on Entrepreneurs on Fire. So we've talked about a lot of stuff, a lot of your great books over the years and other things that you've had going on. So it's pretty nuts, pretty crazy. But why did you decide to update this book after six years now?

2:36Oh, geez. You know, the whole journey was crazy, JLD, because as you know, my wife and I sold Content Marketing Institute in 2006. I stayed on until the end of 17. I took a full sabbatical year in 2018, and I became a novelist. I wrote a mystery thriller called The Will to Die. That was going to be my thing. I was getting out of marketing and entrepreneurship entirely. And then this thing called the pandemic happened. So this is in March. So basically in early March of 2020, we had the book kickoff for The Will to Die. And then two weeks after that, you know, everything shuts down. And I start getting Facebook messages.

3:15I start getting texts. I start getting emails from people asking me about the Content Inc. model because they're losing their jobs or they're thinking about a career change and they want to see if they can make this content entrepreneurship work. And I said, oh my gosh, let's check the data. So I start looking at the podcast downloads of Content Inc. Podcasts, which I stopped doing entirely. And I looked and said, oh, podcast downloads are up. That's weird. I'm not producing any new episodes. I called my executive editor at McGraw Hill Education and I said, can you tell me the data on the book from 2015?

3:50How's it doing? And she said, have you put any ads against it? because sales are up. This is really weird. This is a five-year-old book and it's starting to sell more. And of course we knew there was something there. There's this whole movement of content creation, I call it content entrepreneurship, that's just taken off and people want to learn how to create a financially sustainable business model by creating content like you have, like I have every day. And I thought it was time to redo it. And it was great. We redid your case study. We talked to hundreds of entrepreneurs from all over the world about how they're building their content empires and then figured out, okay, there is a model.

4:29We call it the content model. It's seven steps. We updated it. We added exit strategy. We switched some things around based on the data. And now they keep pulling me back in, JLD. I thought I was out, but here I am back in. Just when I thought I got away, they pulled me back in. I know. What are you going to do? But it's probably where I can do the most good. And I do have a passion around it. So here I am. I started the new business called The Tilt. We're all focused on how entrepreneurs can find a financially sustainable model around this thing called content creation. And so that's what I'm doing from here on out.

5:07So we teased it a little bit. But what is the essence? What is the heart? What is the soul of the Content Inc. model? So basically, it's seven steps. It's the sweet spot, the content tilt, building the base. Then you focus on audience building. Then you drive your first stage of revenue and diversify into other areas, other platforms. And then the end one is you either sell or you go big or you create an amazing lifestyle business like you have with Fire Nation. The couple things that I want to talk about that are really important and things that we found that a lot of people might not agree with because it might not make sense.

5:44But the one thing is the base, the focus on one platform over and over again. We find these content entrepreneurs who are building multimillion dollar enterprises. They're not everywhere. They are on YouTube or Twitch or they have a podcast or they have an amazing email newsletter. They're not doing everything at one time. Now, later down the road, that's a thing that's called diversification. That's step six. But you have to build a minimum viable audience first. So that's that third step that's really important. And then two big issues in the model are one, the thing that I get the questions on most of the time, JLD, is this thing called the content tilt.

6:21And the content tilt is something that everyone has to have, but most content creators don't. And that's an area of differentiation. It's an area of little to no competition on the web where you actually have a chance to break through. So that means you have to focus on a different topic. You have to focus on a different audience type. You have to focus on a different platform. You have to tell a different story and you can't talk about the same old things that everyone else is talking about in the same way. Like for you, I mean, you did a great job. There were really no entrepreneur podcasts that were daily when you started your thing.

6:54And you knew that you saw that as your opportunity and that became your content tilt. So with me, you know, when we started Content Marketing Institute, our whole thing was, hey, can we build a category and call it content marketing? Nobody was using that term. but we went into that we focused all of our efforts on content marketing and three years later we built a million dollar enterprise but it a lot of people forget that oh i can't just talk about the same old thing or this is what i love and this is what i know no you have to figure out what the audience's pain points are what keeps them up at night and then you can figure out how you're going to position your content around that first off fire nation focus focus on one platform focus follow that one course until success and i do love how you dove deeper into the content till because that is so valuable so important you've got to find fire nation within your big idea the niche that is underserved that has a void that's being ignored that is really just like underappreciated and then become the best solution to that problem because there's little or no comp so you can break through.

8:04And I appreciate that example you gave of me with Entrepreneurs on Fire being the first daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. So I was the best. I was also the worst. I was the only. And before we move on, Joe, give us maybe one other example of a business that you've seen that's really taken advantage of that content tilt. You know, it's interesting. I have a good friend of mine. His name's Wally Koval, and he created a Instagram site called Accidentally Wes Anderson. and basically he started it with his wife and he started posting pictures on instagram because he wanted to actually go to these places and travel it's basically it was his own travel list but he put it on instagram and what he realized he started to look at all the pictures and they looked like they came directly out of a wes anderson movie so that's where the accidentally wes anderson comes from and what he what was missing in all these pictures that he found in all these locations there weren't a lot of data so what he started to do is said oh i wonder if I start posting these pictures and adding a little bit of data, a little bit of background about what these pictures mean, the significance of them, the historical context.

9:08So he starts posting all these on Instagram every day. He posted something on accidentally Wes Anderson. And today he's got over a million. This is just in three years. He's got over a million followers now. And he just hit the New York Times bestseller list with a book called accidentally Wes Anderson. So what I love about that is he focused on doing something and filling a content gap that no one else was doing. It was also around a passion of his and then figured out, oh, well, where am I going to take this? I need to do this consistently every day. And that's kind of the other thing we find in the content model.

9:41Like you've never missed a day. I never miss a day with my email newsletter that I send out. Wally never missed a day with his Instagram post. This content is a promise to your customers. If you're going to build an empire, you can't miss a day. You actually have to set up the processes so you don't miss it. You have to be like Norm from Cheers. You always have to show up. And when you do, you have to be interesting. So these are the, and I love that business model because what's great about Accidentally Wes Anderson and our whole business model is it was not capital intensive at all. And this is what we find about content, Inc.

10:12businesses. It doesn't take a lot to get them off the ground. Now you have to be lean. You have to know that it takes about 12 to 18 months to build a minimum viable audience. It takes about, you know, 36 months for you to say, look, I can actually do something with this business. I can become a millionaire or I can actually sell it for multiple millions of dollars. So that's, and we've talked about all these case studies in the book, but that's what we see over and over again. What's that differentiation? Focus on one platform, consistently deliver over a long period of time. You build an audience that knows, likes, and trusts you.

10:50And then when you do that, that audience will make you very aware of the different revenue opportunities and the different profit opportunities that are available. And then you see a big diversification of revenue happen. And there you go. You built the content empire and then you can do whatever you want to do in your life, which is amazing. I mean, Fire Nation, who doesn't want to be Norm from Cheers? Let's be honest. We all want that at some point in our lives. And we're going to be talking about the difference between a content gig worker and a content entrepreneur. We'll be talking about having an exit strategy and if you should even have one.

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12:38Visit HubSpot.com to learn more. Joe, we're back, and as I kind of teased before the break, what the heck is the difference between a content gig worker and a content entrepreneur? Well, a content entrepreneur is somebody that creates content on a regular basis and wants to build a full-time financially sustainable business from it. There are people like you, people like me that are doing this every day. Unfortunately, the majority of content creators out there that I would say are gig workers or doing side hustles, you know, whatever you want to call it, they're hobbies. And what we're trying to do, that's one of the reasons why I have this renewed focus on this area is try to get people focused on, oh, yeah, I'm doing this on the side.

13:21and say, look, you can focus on this. And if you want to have all your dreams come true, you can actually make this thing happen. So we want to get them moved from, you know, let's say the Uber of content working for somebody else, which means you're on YouTube and you basically have one form of revenue and you're doing it part time, or you have a Twitch stream and you know, you're just getting revenue from Twitch subs and you're not diversifying and you're not doing it full time to actually saying, look, I'm going to scale this for the long term. I'm going to find my virtual assistants. I'm going to start to set freelancers in order, contract workers, so I can do this full time, still live my life, but focus every day on building a loyal audience and making this actual thing.

14:03And that's why I don't have the data yet. I really want a JLD. I think we can find it someday down the road. But I think this boom in entrepreneurship we've had, of course, led by things like the pandemic, I think the majority of those people launching new businesses are people that are launching content entrepreneur businesses where you might say they're part of the creator economy. But I love the focus on saying, I know you love entrepreneurs. You love the word entrepreneur. I do as well. I don't like content creator. I don't like creator economy. I think that puts too much focus on tech. I like this focus on content entrepreneur because first and foremost, an entrepreneur is in the business of building a business.

14:43And there is a business model behind it. A gig worker, a side hustle, whatever the case is, I don't think it takes it serious enough. And this is a serious business. This is a serious business, Fire Nation. And the result is we have a creator middle class. And I love how you come up with these phrases and these terms. So talk to us more about this creator middle class. And why does this class need to diversify their revenue sources just to survive. It's so interesting. I mean, I think you and I have been hearing a lot about this idea of the creator middle class. And basically what that means is it's not your big celebrities.

15:20It's not your big influencers. It's everyone in the middle. It's somebody that has, you know, 2 ,000 email subscribers or 5 ,000 downloads to their podcast or just getting started with 500 subscribers on YouTube, whatever the case is. And they're trying to make it. They want to be full-time content entrepreneurs, but haven't gotten to that point yet. Now, what happens is, and you know this, if you're a big social influencer, you only need one revenue channel, let's say, one revenue type. You could get all your advertising from YouTube. You could get a huge sponsorship with a big tech company or something like that because you're so well-known.

15:58You've got multiple millions of followers, and it's easier for you to do this. Well, what about everyone else? What everyone else has to do is you have to think like, let's say Disney, where Disney has five, six, seven, eight different types of revenue. You have to think like Amazon that has the same thing. So I'll give you an example, maybe a little solidified. So let's say that you have a loyal audience in the middle. There's actually about eight different ways that you can drive revenue. And what I want a content entrepreneur to think about is how many of those different ways can you generate revenue to protect yourself?

16:31Just like you would protect your own stock investments, You wouldn't say, oh, I'm going to put all my stock in Apple because that's a terrible idea. Even though Apple may be very successful, it also may go out of business and you've got no money. So if you are part of this creator middle class, if you're a content entrepreneur, you want to say, OK, I'm going to build this audience. Well, what can I do? I can generate advertising revenues or sponsorship revenues. I can do my own conference or my own event. I can have premium content like content like a book or an audio book. I can solicit donations directly for that.

17:04I can have an affiliate program like you have a great affiliate program, JLD. You get paid subscriptions of some kind. And then you could also outside of direct revenue options, you could sell your own products and services and products that you would create like a copy blogger. And Brian Clark has done a great job doing that. Or you could sell your own consulting services. So I think what I want to do is once I build that loyal audience, I want to bolt on as many of those revenue and profit opportunities to protect yourself. And like I would just ask you, JLD, you have what you have, four, five, six different in your, you know, affiliates, you have different subscription programs, you have meetups, you have advertising and sponsors.

17:40So you're very, very well protected if one of those lines dries up or if we get a worldwide pandemic and there's no more in-person events. So these are the things that smart businesses have to do. Smart businesses have to do this, Fire Nation, because as we just saw, we cannot predict the future. And companies that weren't diversified going into what happened last year, they paid the price. But those that were, and they were agile, they were quick, and that could still generate revenue in different ways, different diverse streams, they survived. And now, in a lot of ways, they're thriving because a lot of their competition went by the wayside.

18:14So sometimes if you can just be diversified enough to make it through the tough times, you come out even stronger because your competition's not weaker. They're just gone. Now, one thing that I think is interesting, you know, a lot of people have some pretty strong feelings about this, which is having an exit strategy is like, is that quitting? Is that giving up? Is that kind of, you know, leaving your quote unquote followers, fans or, you know, content consumers in the lurch? Why is an exit strategy so undervalued and why do you feel like it's so important? You know, I have a big opinion on this one.

18:47And I'd say because you're actually in the section that we have in the book on exit strategies and talk about yours, which yours was really building this lifestyle business. So your exit was a continuation of what you were already doing, which is completely fine. My exit was different. And it depends on what you want for your life and your goals, your career goals and your personal goals. So, and you already know this story, but some of your listeners don't. In 2008, I always wanted to start a business and I wanted to sell that business. And I wanted my wife and I and my family to have at least$10 million at the end of the day.

19:20And so, by the way, this is 2008. We were, I think in revenue that year, we did about 50 ,000 in revenue. So this is a big pipe dream, right? But I knew if I wrote this down that I sold the business in 2008 for$15 million. And that's the number that I wrote down, JLD, because I knew I talked to my accountant and he said, Joe, you've got to sell for 15 in order to take 10 home. I'm like, OK, that's my goal. And I wanted to do that by 2015 because my kids who are now going on to college, I wanted to spend some real good quality time with them and not think about the business all the time. So I said, OK, 2015, a good year, four or five years before they go off to college.

19:57So very personal goal. Also, the financial goal of being set and protecting my family for the rest of their lives. Wrote that down every morning when I woke up every night before I went to sleep at night. I read that over and over again. And what I wanted to do is I wanted my brain to work on that subconsciously overnight. And then when I woke up, I wanted to make sure I was doing those things more important than getting into email or falling down the social media rabbit hole or whatever. So and by the way, we did not accomplish that goal. Unfortunately, we did accomplish it in 2016. We started the sales process in 15.

20:32So, you know what? It's OK. It worked out. We sold Content Marketing Institute to a large London-based events company in June of 2016. So it worked out very, very well for us. We hit the goals. We exceeded those goals. But what I want content entrepreneurs to think about, and any entrepreneurs, I want you to know where you're taking this thing. We're not just in it because we're spending this day this certain way. What we're doing is we want to accomplish something. We want to make an impact on the world. And I want people to write down and review what that is. So what is that? Does that mean that you want to sell your organization for some amount of money at some point?

21:09Does that mean that you want to become a big enterprise? So the seventh step in the content model is sell or go big. So, for example, do you want to sell like we did or you want to go big? And I would say probably your example, JLD, is you going big because you have accomplished your lifestyle business exactly the way that you want it to. You're living your best life. So you absolutely went big. You've got other ones that say, no, I actually want to create, like, for example, HubSpot said, okay, we want to go super big. And we went, now they're a$30 billion company. So there's decisions you need to make.

21:44And if you make those upfront, you can spend every day working on those instead of getting sidetracked. So I'm a big believer that you have to figure out what your exit is. And by the way, if you don't know it right now, that's okay. Write down those goals, figure out where you want to go financially, career-wise, mentally, spiritually, philanthropically, you know, where do you want to be? And you'll figure out that, yes, down, this is what my best life would be, but let's take every step of the way to get there. So you have to have some kind of exit strategy. Wow. I mean, fire nation, this is why you want to go into any idea and to any concept in any business with a clear end goal in mind, because then you can say, you know what, this is the goals I'm going to write down.

22:27I'm going to see them every single day. They're going to become reality to me. And then I will make them a reality in the future. Now, Joe, I want to give you the mic. I want to give you the stage. I want to allow you to share with Fire Nation exactly what you want us, the listeners, to take away from this entire episode. Then please share any call to action you have for us. I mean, obviously we have the update of your book and everything that's going on there. Any other way you want us to connect and then we'll say goodbye. Look, we're all at different places. We're all creating content in some way.

23:00What I would probably do is do a basic content audit, which means what content are you creating? What content are you spending resources on? And just write it down in front of you. Like, what are you doing on your blog? What are you doing on your podcast? What are you doing on YouTube? What are you doing on Twitter, LinkedIn? Write it all down. And what I really want you to do from this episode that you're listening to right now is I want you to kill a couple of those things. I want you to stop doing things that are wasting your time, that you've already experimented on, that you know are not delivering value to your audience and not delivering value to your business model.

23:34Because what we see over and over again, and I've had the opportunity to consult with billion dollar organizations, and they expect me, the content marketing guy, JLD, to come in and recommend content for them to create. And every time I go in there and say, You've got content run amok. It's all over the place. There's no focus. You're not focused on delivering value and solving the pain points of your audience. So you just need to stop and do one or two things amazingly well. Be the leading informational expert for your niche and don't focus on anything less. So that would be my recommendation.

24:09Start killing some things. Focus on being the best in a few things and you'll see change happen right before your eyes. some of my calls to action. Obviously, you talk about the book. Go to content-inc.com. You can get the book. But for Fire Nation specifically, if you sign up to our newsletter, my new business called The Tilt, go to thetilt.com slash fire. And everyone that subscribes to my email newsletter gets$5 in Tiltcoin. That's our own cryptocurrency. So if you sign up now, go to thetilt.com slash fire and you will get not only the subscription, which I think you'll like, but you'll get$5 in Tiltcoin to use in and among yourself.

24:48And I'm really big on this creator coin thing is you do JLD. So I'm getting behind it and we've got our own currency and we're doing some pretty interesting things with it. And I've got some Tiltcoin, Fire Nation. So don't be that person that like five years from now is like, oh my God, did you hear what JLD just sold his Tiltcoin for? Don't be that person, especially when Joe's giving it to you for free. And I just want to say, Fire Nation, you know you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You've been hanging out with JP and JLD today, so keep up that heat. Head over to eofire.com.