Why Working Remote is More Toxic Than In Person: Lessons for Leaders in the Hybrid Workforce with Chris Savage: An EOFire Classic from 2021

0:02Who's ready to rock today, Fire Nation. JLD here and welcome to Entrepreneurs on fire brought Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals with great shows like this old marketing. Today, we're pulling a classic episode from the archives and we'll be breaking down why working remote is more toxic than in-person. Lessons for leaders in the hybrid workforce. And to drop these value bombs, I brought Chris Savage into EO Fire Studios. Chris is the co-founder and CEO of Wistia, a leading video hosting platform that gives marketers everything they need to get bigger results from their videos and podcasts.

0:34And Fire Nation, in a world where work and life are so blended. It is really important that people will come to wherever they are working and feel like they're doing work that matters and oh, so much more. And a big thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to Chris and our sponsors. The Next Wave, your chief AI officer hosted by Matt Wolf and Nathan Lance is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. AI technology is transforming the way we do business and the media landscape is fragmented. The Next Wave strives to be the leading podcast on AI technology and how you can apply it to growing your business.

1:06Listen to The Next Wave wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever said to yourself, one day I will write a book? If yes, then I have an opportunity for you. Author 100 is a 100-day program where I will personally guide you one-on-one to create, write, publish, and market your book. I will provide daily guidance and mentorship every step of the way. Head over to author100.com to sign up for a free call with me to chat about the details. Author100.com. Chris, say what's up to Fire Nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with. What up, Fire Nation?

1:49Super excited to be here. I think a lot of predicting the future is actually not that hard. I think we see the future around us often. We see people doing things that make sense that everyone's going to do. I think one of the hardest things, um, to get right though, is actually just timing. And so people, the mistake that people make is having too short of a time horizon. And so if you can have a long enough time horizon and you can be pretty sure about what's going to happen in the future, then the secret is like, how do you actually stay motivated and keep going? Um, and that's a lot of like, what fulfills you, what makes work fun?

2:32Uh, what makes the challenge fun? And if you can, if you can stay focused on the right problem for a long time, you might not be able to predict when the market's going to turn, when everyone's going to adopt a new behavior, but, um, you don't have to, if you're still present and focused and working on that. And that, that has been something I've learned that lesson. I've been doing this for 15 years and I've learned that lesson a few times. Wow, this is going to happen. Oh, we're completely wrong on timing. Ah, we're still doing it. And then the market came. And so, yeah, I think it's, we like to think that this stuff happens really quickly and sometimes it does, but the timing is usually actually the hardest part to predict.

3:11I love this concept. And Seth Godin actually talks about this a lot in his book, The Dip, where he just goes over example after example, where just these companies and businesses and just even solo entrepreneurs, they just go into this dip and they have the right concept. They have the right ideas. They're even passionate about this. but they just don't get through the debt. They don't give it enough time and they give up that, you know, three feet from gold kind of mentality. And then they look back and they're like, oh, if I just held on. So it's a really interesting concept. I mean, I tell everybody that's, you know, joins our community podcast, just paradise.

3:49I say, listen, Entrepreneurs on Fire launched in 2012. That I launched in 2012. If I launched that in 2021, it fails at that iteration. This would be the wrong timing for it. But in 2012, it was the right time. So I had some luck there. I stuck with it. And the market grew with what I launched. So, so much to think about there, Fire Nation, when you are going through your process. What are you going to be able to be passionate about long enough to keep interested in continuing to do the thing until the market turns in your favor? Now, as I mentioned in the intro, we're talking about why working remote is actually more toxic than in person.

4:24And I love this concept with Chris because, you know, he is the CEO and co-founder of Wistia. So it's really interesting that a video individual, a guy that's, you know, has such an experience in the online video world here is so such a believer in this topic. So I want to be honest with Fire Nation right off the bat because there are some major and I mean major challenges when it comes to managing a business remotely. So share some of the biggest that you've experienced. First of all, it's funny me even saying this because, you know, I've built a company that was predominantly in person and, um, we just started to have remote working become like remote for us was the thing that we used to kind of retain folks who were going to move and we're like, Oh, you're great.

5:14We want to keep you. This is pre pandemic. And then we just started to hire people remote. We're like, Oh, we're figuring this out. Like we can do the hybrid thing. and then obviously thrown into fully remote due to COVID as everyone was. And I think like the chat, like communication, there's a lot of communication that happens in person. There's a lot of understanding of how people are doing, of whether or not a message is resonating, really simple things that just get unbelievably hard when remote if you don't have systems for them. And this was not obvious, I think, in the first three months of being remote because we're all just like trying to survive.

5:56But over time, I've seen that there are a lot of things that are way harder to get right remote than they are in person. And getting them wrong can create a situation where you can have, you know, things like way more toxicity in the workplace, which doesn't even seem possible because what's the workplace? You're your house, right? So it doesn't feel like a thing that could happen, but it's something that just gets really hard when communication gets harder and all these subtle things get removed. Well, what would you say is maybe the biggest challenge of managing a business remotely? What did you experience?

6:38You're just like, wow, this is way harder than I expected. Staying on the same plan, not that hard. Like if you're, if you have a really well laid plans and you get those well laid in person and you communicate those in person and people discuss them, push back, whatever, that's, you can stay on a plan. Like that's not hard. What's, what gets really hard is when you're, when you're going through big changes, which we've all been going through, um, all the systems of feedback that exist in person do not exist in the same way remotely. Right. So if you're having a Zoom meeting instead of an in-person meeting, in person, you can literally hear someone groan or someone can interject mid-sentence or people – or gets dead silent if you're saying something that doesn't work.

7:24I've definitely said things that don't resonate and you can hear a pin drop, right? Well, a lot of remote working in meetings in particular, everyone's on mute. It's nothing but the pin drop. you can't tell what's working versus what's not. And I'm sure you've been in these meetings where you see people like doing the head nod. Oh yeah. The really big head nod. And they're trying to show, I agree with you. Like, and it's like, why are they doing that? And they're doing it because in person you could just feel the energy and you can't, you can't feel it remotely. And so when you're going through change, it gets a lot harder to tell, like, are people on board?

8:02Are they not? Are they excited? Are they pissed? Are they confused? Are they bought in? Like, and you have to have different systems to understand that. And I think, uh, it's a mistake to assume, you know, that silence is agreement, uh, when, when, uh, you're managing business remotely. And people have just gotten really good at like holding their phone just like under the camera view. So you can't see it. And then just going to TikTok and then just obsessing with TikTok for like, you know, know, the entire, you know, the entire meeting and just not catching anything. And then, you know, maybe the recording gets set out, sent out and they watch it at 4x speed and they pick up on the important things and they go about their day.

8:42But let's be honest, remote culture has actually been praised for decades now, especially in the digital nomad community. I mean, Tim Ferriss with his book like 15 years ago, you know, made the four hour work week such a big deal for so many people, but let's talk about the other side of the coin. Why can remote culture be actually more toxic than in person? I mean, we've been talking about this subject thus far already in our last little share, but let's really get detailed now about the toxicity of this remote culture. If you're walking around an office and you see someone who's upset, you wonder yourself, yourself, why are they upset?

9:22It's a very simple, simple thing. Um, or if you hear a meeting in a conference room and it gets a little rowdy or people walk out of it and their heads are like hanging low, you just ask obvious questions, which is like, what are those people meeting about? And, um, why is everyone upset? And over time you could build like a really strong muscle around sensing our teams happy. Are they not? And I just took for granted that that was happening in person. and I took for granted that it was so easy to get an answer on what was up or dig in, right? Like you see people, they walk by you, they look upset.

9:58You ping their manager, hey, what's going on? You're like, oh, someone's quitting or, uh, you know, someone, some, we just got some really bad news on some project we were trying something. You have a sense when things are remote, like you don't have that sense at all. Um, meetings can happen where everyone comes out of them, like dejected or everyone comes out of them upset and no, nobody knows. Like it's just someone sitting in their, in their home alone. Um, and they walk away from the computer and they don't necessarily think I should tell everyone about this problem or whatever. And so if you have interactions that are really going poorly between folks, where in person you would kind of hear about it, it can just go completely silent when things are remote.

10:46And it becomes a, you know, he said, she said situation. Like I had, because people start reporting on things that no one else witnessed and no one else was around. And that can create a really tough environment. So Fire Nation, we talked about some really interesting things that I hope you're going to be able to implement into your remote workforce to the level that you have on right now. we're going to be talking about some really interesting things after the break. Out of sight, out of mind, some best practices for you managing a remote workforce, and so much more when we get back from thanking those sponsors.

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13:09I've also traditionally published with HarperCollins, so I know a lot about the book publishing world and where most authors go wrong. I created Author 100 to share my experience and the lessons I've learned along the way, and I can't wait to share it with you. If you're interested in learning more, head over to author100.com and sign up for a free call with me. That's author100.com. So Chris, we're back. And I kind of teased before the break that out of sight, out of mind mentality that some managers do have. So let's just be honest. It's going to happen. So how do we combat it? Yeah, the answer is intention.

13:49And over communication is not really a word anymore. I think we have to have much more intention as leaders, we have to ask yourself the question, you know, if you were, we used to hear a lot about walk around management and are you just like getting a sense of how people are doing and what's happening? And that helps solve a lot of problems. Like you have to ask yourself the question, how do you do that when you're remote? But you know, Chris, what kind of comes to mind when you say that is office space with that guy just walking around with a cup of coffee, going up to the cubicle, sipping and saying, so how about those TPS reports?

14:25So, I mean, And what is like a good way to do kind of walk around management that doesn't, you know, kind of put you in that tool category? I think it's being present and putting yourself in a place where people can feel comfortable saying hello and just like having quick conversations. And yes, the TPS report over someone's shoulder is not going to be, that's not going to work. Although there is some truth, right? Like they're making fun of a real thing. Totally. Which is like, if you are just available, there's all these people who are always on the fence of telling you something. And I think this is even more true.

15:01The bigger a company gets, the more true people are actually more on the fence because they assume you already know what's happening. They assume you know there's a problem. They don't want to be a tattletale. They don't want to create an issue where there shouldn't be one. And so just being present helps people feel comfortable of like, hey, actually, maybe I should tell Chris this thing. And I learned over the years that that was like as simple as like, I would sit on a couch on the first floor of our building and work there for a few hours and people would pop by and say hello and people would sit down.

15:35And it was that simple. But to do that remotely, there isn't a couch. There's no lobby. There's no kind of like just random walk-bys that are happening kind of organically. And I think that's definitely one thing that a lot of people really found that they missed during the pandemic was just being around people. I mean, of course we all love our alone time, whether you're an extrovert to the max or an introvert to the max. Like we all love our alone time to some level. But then when we got it forced upon us 24 hours a day and basically solitary confinement in some ways, we started realizing like, wow, like I actually really miss just kind of being in a room with people, the energy.

16:14Because what are we when it comes down to like the core of our atoms? Like we're just energy. And when our energy is combined, minds, there's some really fascinating things that happen, Fire Nation. And it's so true that that synergistic energy is just there in its present. And so many people, myself included, really missed that so much more than even I expected. And I consider myself an extrovert, so I expected to miss it, but I hadn't missed it even more than even I expected. So some really interesting things about everything that Chris is talking about here. And let's get kind of detailed for a second about the best practices that you've seen that you've implemented for managers to manage a remote workforce to kind of minimize this damage we're talking about.

16:58I think you have to be intentional and you have to have lines of communication that are formal and more formal, and you also need more informal. And so that looks like, you know, being crystal clear with the meetings that you have that people should go to and always recording them and transcribing them, previewing messages. One of the things we've learned to do is cascade communication. So we won't just go to an all company meeting and surprise everybody with something. We will, if we're doing something big and something that's new, the first thing we'll do is go to the senior management team and make sure they all understand and they're bought in and they've had a chance to push back.

17:34And then we go to the man, the, all the managers and do the exact same thing. So by the time we're introducing something that's been new and big to the company, you can go to your manager directly after that meeting and ask a question and they will have an answer. We do Q &A by team every month. And the goal of that is to have a smaller group for 30 minutes that people know that they're always going to have a chance to ask questions. They can do it by themselves, like say it out loud, or they can do it anonymously. But we're trying to build that culture to make sure that people feel comfortable asking questions.

18:10And then you have to do a lot of more informal things. And so I would suggest like scheduling very short, like 15 minute meetings with different folks around the company with no agenda. And I think that's actually the key. It's like the in-person run-ins and stuff had no agenda. You were just covering whatever came up. And I think that's super important. Um, and I would say like, you know, it's important to use video for meetings and it's also important to do meetings where there's no video. You have to actually do both because it turns out some people, self-conscious, it is tiring to be on camera all day, but it also, you can get different cues and ask things about people in their life and in their home and all that kind of stuff.

18:54And then the other thing you can do is like, you can do just calls. And the amazing thing about a call is like you can go on a walk and talk to somebody else and your brain works in a different way and you have a different level of like comfort and informality. And I find that it's like a mix of these different things that you need to do. And then probably the biggest, most important thing that I haven't even mentioned yet is like you can't manage a business that was fully in person the same way that you manage a business that's hybrid or remote. Like you must have way more asynchronous communication.

19:30And you have to get people comfortable with like pushing back in written form. and writing up things so that meetings can be shorter and everyone's more aligned going into them. I mean, similar to the Amazon style, like you don't have to have their crazy level of detail in your notes, but I think making sure that people are all aware and people are on the same page walking into a meeting so a meeting can be more about discussion around where there isn't alignment versus like trying to gain massive alignment in the first place. So a couple of things that I love there, Fire Nation, the Q &A by team, like I love that concept.

20:10So everybody always knows and feels like they have a voice that matters and they're going to be heard. You know, this kind of goes back to a concept of, you know, when you're just part of these companies where there's more than like 150 people, you know, some companies that are 500, thousands, tens of thousands, that's tough for like an individual because we have this like tribal 150 person limit that goes way, way back to like 50 ,000 years ago. And we have a hard time coping with things bigger than that just because that's kind of how we have always been. Like that's been the tribal unit. And then once you kind of get up to like a couple, three, 400, boom, one tribe breaks off and now you have two tribes that are off doing some other things.

20:52And there you have the world that's been populated. So having the smaller team concept really makes you heard and makes you feel just at your core, this is right, I'm being heard. And I also loved how you even brought that audio only thing because Chris, I mean, I think that's one of the bigger reasons why Clubhouse became so big because a lot of people were just like, I just love the fact that I can just go on there and I don't have to have good lighting. I don't have to have my good face on. I don't have to sit there and be nodding my head, you know, the head nod and pretend like I'm listening.

21:22Like I can be on walks, I can be on a treadmill and I can be consuming great content. And again, so a mix of both. And I want to end with a bang and talk about morale and culture. I mean, it's two things that you've done exceptionally well in Wistia over the years. So I know we've talked around these a lot. So we've mentioned a lot about, you know, what would make good morale and what would make good culture within a company with things that we chatted about. But let's get specific with one or two really actionable things that maybe you've done or seen that could really keep companies on fire with a remote workforce in that morale and culture sector?

22:01So this one is simple. Everyone wants to know how their work ladders up to the company. And I think one of the most important things is being crystal clear, actually, like in the goals that you set, like what are the goals for the company? What are the goals for the team? And what are the goals for an individual so that you can ladder up and you can see if I'm successful with my goal. It's helping my team. If I'm helping my team, I'm helping the company. If I'm helping the company, I'm having an impact. And like, um, in a world where work and life are so blended, I think it is really important that people can come to wherever they're working their couch or their kitchen or their office or what have you.

22:40Um, and they can feel like what they're doing at work matters and what they're doing at work, like really is impacting the business. And that's obviously where growth comes from and that's where opportunity comes from. Um, so I always think like you want to, you want to try to get focused on that. And, um, that comes through like really good communication down, really good communication up and really good communication sideways and, you know, everything we've been talking about. Um, and then I think the other thing is there's a lot of stuff that seems so silly. Like, I don't know if you've watched the office recently, but at some point during the pandemic, I'm watching the office and I feel like nostalgic and sad, like watching all these people together.

23:19And sometimes like things that they're making fun of, like, um, you know, the party planning committees and stuff, which seems so ridiculous. And they're so easy to like laugh about and make fun of like, but there is truth that it's nice to have nice to have things with your coworkers that show you that you are not just like working machines, right? That like we actually are human beings. and I think you have to give permission for folks to experiment and be themselves and have fun and like things that we've done are we've done hackathons fully remotely an example of something that came out of it was like a team made a radio station and called Wistia FM and so employees get on there and they spin different like music tracks and they are the the DJ hosting it and it's on on everyone's calendar and you can like listen throughout the week and feel like this connection to, to other people in the business.

24:15And so I just, I think it is actually really important, um, to plan things that are appropriate to a remote world, right? Like you shouldn't go and do like the cake cutting thing where everyone's remote and they can't have a slice, but like, you probably should consider, um, the gaming with folks and you know, the VR, uh, mini golf as a favorite and like what are the things you can do that give people that space to see that it's not just like you come to work and you're in and out and you don't feel that extra connection to the people you're working around you um last thing i would say this is so simple but like all my friends who have run remote first businesses before the pandemic always tell me like in a remote first business, you still need to connect with people in person.

25:06And I would encourage folks like it's don't underestimate just how valuable a small amount of in-person time can be for making remote connections much stronger. Um, and there, there are ways to do that safely and do it outside and do a testing and do it with masks. But I, I'm a big believer that just a little bit of that goes a very long way towards keeping people connected and keeping them excited. Love everything we talked about here today. I hope you now understand why working remote can be more toxic than in person if you're not taking the right steps and that you really got some great lessons for your business in this hybrid workforce that's frankly is going to be a part of our future forever.

25:49So Chris, give us the one major takeaway. You really want to make sure of Fire Nation guests from everything that we chatted about here today. Anything you want to share about how we can connect with you and Wistia and everything you have going on, and then we'll say goodbye. The biggest takeaway I would say is you have to remember that all of us are like complex human beings sitting at home. And just because we're not necessarily in person with each other at all every day or at all anymore doesn't mean that we don't care about who we're working with or how the work is done. Um, and you have to build systems that allow you to really hear from your, from your people, to hear from your team and to know what's really up.