Business Insights with Jessica Whitmire

0:02Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of the Epic Entrepreneurs podcast where we are all about helping business owners just like you achieve success. So we don't do fancy smancy. We don't do flashing lights. We don't do a lot of things that a lot of podcasts will do. These are just real stories about real people and their entrepreneurial and business experiences. We go into their wins, their challenges, and their learnings. So we hope you enjoy it. Hey there, welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs, brought to you by Action Coach Growth Partners. I'm your host, Bill Gilliland, and in this podcast, you'll find three things.

0:46You're going to hear real stories from real entrepreneurs that will help you along your entrepreneurial journey. You're also going to get business tips to help you scale up faster, and you're going to get actual coaching to help you get better real world results to be the best entrepreneur you can be. Hey, and if you like the podcast, remember to subscribe. And now, enjoy the show. My name is Jessica Whitmire. I am the Director of Operations at Headwaters Outfitters. I am the second generation of kind of running the family business. My parents started when I was six years old, started this business in 1992.

1:26and so we are going on 32 years as a small family business and this is probably my eighth year at the at the lead and running the show um yeah it's great to be here so jessica tell us what it's like to grow up in a family business oh man well you know there's there's always the ups and downs like there isn't anything but my experience is nothing but but I mean I I wouldn't really want it any other way I have enjoyed growing up in this industry I have in the outdoor recreation world my parents were paddlers so I grew up in a canoe I think I was in a canoe at just a couple weeks old exploring rivers across the country camping and fishing and paddling and I've been able to just kind of use that passion and you know to keep this going and continue it you know I really the fly fishing is really become a big part of my passion I love the fly fishing community I love fly fishing and being on the water and I love paddling too and it's just really helped me um it's given me an opportunity to not only do that as a career but share it with other people, work with other people that have become like family.

2:53We have such a strong team here that we all work together and it's been a, despite some of the hardships, you don't, you know, you've got, you know, between my mom and my dad and my husband and now my eight year old or my almost eight year old that likes to have his opinion too on everything. You know, there's always going to be times where you really have to focus on communication and love, but it's been nothing but a positive experience. And I'm very thankful for the opportunity that my parents have given me. When they started this business, especially my mom, there wasn't a lot of outdoor recreation in Western North Carolina or in Transimedia County.

3:32We were still very industry-based. There were still a lot of manufacturers here. There wasn't people, there weren't a lot of people doing outdoor recreation, especially on the river. There was a few ski slopes and things like that. But for my mom, her really paving the way for paddle sports, watching her really get that up and going, not just with our business, but as the community in a whole was very inspiring. So are your parents still involved in the business? Yep. Oh, yeah. My dad still works here in the summer. He runs the paddling program with our other program lead, Danielle. So they kind of run the paddling and the tubing world.

4:22And he does all the mowing and the maintenance and all of that. He's here April through October. And mom is still really the foundation behind it all. She's not here on a day-to-day basis, but she is always, you know, wanting to know what's going on, giving us suggestions, keeping us going, and keeping us in line. So was there a point where there was sort of a handoff to the next generation? Or how did you go about that? I think it kind of happened organically, I guess. When I came back, we had actually, my parents had sold the business in 2012-ish, 2011-2012, to a longtime employee and they had just sold the business part and were kind of renting the building and the property as he wanted to grow the business.

5:20Unfortunately, he got sick very quickly of cancer and passed away within a very short year of owning the business. And his family was not really interested in, you know, it was his passion and his dream. So they weren't really interested in keeping headwaters going. And that's when, you know, my parents and I had to have a conversation of, you know, what, what do we do? Do we, you know, do we put the property on the market and sell it and move on? Or are we ready to see headwaters no longer be here? Or do I want to come back and, you know, really kind of take it over and, and see what, you know, the net, you know, see how it can grow.

6:00And, and so I did, I really wasn't ready to see Headwaters not be, be here. I didn't think it was time to, I was, I had, I was working full time at the school system at the time as their marketing director. And I just, it made this really weird feeling in my stomach. Like this is not, this is not right. The right time to not have a Headwaters outfitters right here. So I, I came back and we worked together to kind of get it back. We had some not damage control, but we had, we had some, you know, a whole year of not, no marketing and not really being active. And we had to jump back in and really kind of rebuild a few things, but the foundation was so strong.

6:38We had already been a bit in business and had such a strong reputation. It didn't take long for us to get up and going. And then that's where my focus on the fly fishing really came in and especially growing like a women's fly fishing program where we were seeing more women coming into the sport and coming into the shop and now we have two or three women uh female guides that are working for us we have probably have a 60 to 40 female to male client in our fly fishing program we have a very strong female base um so that's it kind of that organically happened and then of course covid happened um we had to jump into we had a couple rainy years You know, we're a business that relies on weather and we had a little, you know, a couple of rocky years.

7:25We had a drought year followed by a flood year and then we had COVID and then we had Fred, which was a major flood. And I think all kind of band together and got through it and it just organically, you know, my parents have worked really hard for a long time and it's, you know, they're at the age where they want to be able to travel and you know be that if I don't know if you're a small business owner I don't know if you're ever retired but you know they're they're ready to to kind of keep letting the you know it go the way the direction that it's going so you brought the fly fishing in well they they had started the fly fishing program in 2007 they were really looking for a way, you know, we used to be very seasonal.

8:12So we used to actually only be open April through October. And we used to close November through March. I mean, completely closed. The shop was closed. Nothing was going on. Right. You know, it just it became harder and harder to find just seasonal staff. You know, we had more more staff that wanted and needed year round work. And we We wanted to not be just dependent on the paddling program. We wanted something that, you know, to help with the retail and being able to be open more than just seven, six or seven months. So we started the fly fishing program in 2007. I was not here at the time. I was still working at the as a marketing director at the school system.

8:57But it took off. I mean, they did a great job getting like they really took the educational approach. my mom's focus was really not just guided trips but educating creating an educational program for fly fishing so they had that foundation but it hadn't really been pushed or marketed really strongly until until i came in and we really kind of amped up that that marketing my husband came in as our head fishing guide. And he has put together a phenomenal staff of guides that are now, I think we started with one when I was here. It was just myself and another guide. And now we have nine full-time guides.

9:43Wow. That's good growth. Yeah, I mean, I think the timing was good for a lot of what you did. Coming back into the business, the timing was good. I mean, obviously, Western North Carolina outdoor was blown up. And actually, COVID helped that because everybody was looking for stuff to do outside because they were scared to be indoors. And so we closed early. We we were in February. This was before. I mean, this was people. I mean, you heard of COVID, but you weren't really nobody really knew what was going to happen. and we, it was February and we were sitting here like, why are we so busy? Why are all these people in the parking lot?

10:28Like what's, what is going on? You know, we were very, um, we were very caught off guard and nervous. And then we realized, you know, Hey, there's, I mean, people were trying to camp in our parking lot. People were just coming up and trying to get out of the city that were coming up from Atlanta, mostly from Atlanta. Right. Um, and we actually made the decision to, um to close down our business early because we felt it was best for our community for us not to because we we are in the upper transylvania county we're one of the only businesses that do draw kind of tourists here like outdoor recreation there's perry there's a couple of us but we're we're not it's not like a downtown and we know i know where you are yep we felt like our responsibility was to kind of protect our community and make sure that we're making the smart move for everyone.

11:19So we actually closed down about two weeks before the governor closed small businesses just because we were, it was crazy. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was an interesting time. So I want to know about the marketing that you're doing. Tell us, I mean, you come out of a marketing background it sounds like so what what did you how did you and I'm sure that those skills are transferable to any business or any organization so what apparently that's worked as well so what kind of marketing plan have you worked out and what do you do so I really you know I was I'm kind of one of those I don't know what you call or what kind if I'm generation x I don't any of those things I remember not having cell phone we didn't have cell phones you know well we didn't have, we had computer labs, but we didn't have, you know, technology at our fingertips, like some, you know, people that are coming out of college and getting jobs today.

12:18So we did a lot of what we had to do once we got into college and all of a sudden there was, you know, cell phones with internet and texting and you had social media kind of come about. We really, I just dug into learning it as quick as I could with trial and error. Once social media became a tool for businesses, I was at that time working for the school system and it was something that I wanted. I took a couple of classes in and just tried to keep my finger on, but it came really naturally. So I really had that aspect of it. We had such a good email base. One thing that we've done a great job of even and I can definitely give that props to my mom being ahead of the curve as far as realizing customer contact and repeat customers were such a strong base and an important base for us that anytime we can keep phone numbers or emails I mean we have just records of all of that from back to even when it was just paper and pencil and ringing up on a regular cash register she really did a great job of seeing that that could be a tool in the future.

13:29So we had such a strong database of customer contacts that we could use as soon as like e-news came about and all of a sudden we had a great website. I think we when we first launched our website it was like awarded like the number one outdoor recreation website in North Carolina. We got several great awards for our website. So So I came, I was lucky to be able to just already, when I came into it, there was such a good foundation of an advanced marketing already. I just was able to add to it with the social media and amping up kind of the e-news and, you know, customer contact. We've always really wanted to, just like what we were talking about earlier, we want to show who we are.

14:18We want to show, you know, our staff, our mission. We really want that to be the core of everything we put out there. And I think that's important for small businesses is to tell your story because it, you know, especially in today's world where we've had to almost take a step back and like, are we using these tools in a responsible way? Because, you know, you can get really ad heavy and there's just you can do too much now if you're not doing it the right way. So we've had some learning curves in it, but we really focus the people. We want the people to be, even if we're not running as many ads to sell this boat or that t-shirt, we really want to show through our marketing the people that we connect with and the experiences that we offer.

15:06Yeah, I think that was very forward thinking on the database. A lot of business owners misvalue that. a lot of business owners don't understand that that database may be the most valuable thing that you have in the business. I mean, it's a family business and you're unlikely to sell it anytime soon, but if you were to sell it, the database is probably the most valuable piece of that business. Yeah, you've got inventory and yeah, you've got all the other stuff, but the database is worth a lot. and then actually using the database properly is the next lesson that I heard there. And focusing on, I guess, the people and the outcomes that people are going to have, the enjoyment, the transformation, getting out in the woods or getting in the stream and fishing.

16:02Those are, to me, a big deal. So that's good. Um, any, uh, there's usually lessons in family businesses around family dynamics. So, um, uh, seems like y 'all got it worked out. So what are the, what are some of the tips or that you would have for people in family businesses about how to make both the family and the business work? How'd you like to learn from the best? How'd you like to network with the best? How'd you like to be the best? Well, the key to being the best is to hang around with the best and to learn from the best. And we're going to make that possible for you this August in Asheville at the Asheville Business Summit.

16:51I want you to stay tuned. We're bringing in speakers from outside. We've got a lot of good events planned. It's going to be amazing. We got more information coming, but if you'd like more info on how you can be involved, how you can attend, or how you You can be a sponsor for this event. It's going to be over 350 entrepreneurs in one place right here in Western North Carolina in Asheville. For more info or to be a sponsor, I want you to reach out directly to Beth Limmel. That's L-E-M-M-E-L at actioncoach.com. That's Beth Limmel at actioncoach.com. We look forward to seeing you there. It's going to be amazing.

17:31Well, I think the biggest lesson that I learned, I'm a, I'm a, I guess I'm definitely a go-getter. When I see a challenge or I have something, you know, presented or in front of me that I need to do or accomplish, a lot of times I put my head down and just do it. I'm a little independent on that front and sometimes to a fault. I think there's, there were, there's many times where I think I made things harder on myself. because I wanted to prove that I could do it instead of like, hey, my parents are right here. They've done this. They've ran small businesses for 40 years. I can use them as a resource.

18:16And I think a lot of times when you're really wanting to put a lot of pride and you're wanting to accomplish something that sometimes that can get in the way and you can make things harder by just not asking for help or asking for questions when things come up. And I definitely know that my struggles, my biggest struggles here, managing my time and my energy and making sure that I'm doing things that are beneficial for everyone has, it's been that it's just been, there are times where I just need to put down the phone and call my mom and ask her what her thoughts are instead of you know spending an hour fighting in my own head of what I should do so I would that would be my biggest um a piece of advice to anyone in a family business is to communicate to always keep communication um at the forefront and not feel like you're going to not feel like you're not capable of doing things on your own just because you need some help we all need help every now and and we all need some direction and advice.

19:21And I think not letting our pride get the best of us is a tough lesson for all of us to learn. Yeah, there's a lot of, you said a lot there. So I'm going to sum it up a little bit. I do believe that our educational system, teach, you know, do your own work, all that stuff, actually is not how the world works. So yeah, you were talking about pride and getting out of your own way. I actually think this is great advice for anyone in business, family or not. A family business is just a business that has employees that are part of the family. So, you know, getting your ego out of the way, asking for help faster.

20:03That was one of my, I know early days of my career, that was one of my big bugaboos, was something that held me back for sure was not, you know, not asking for help quick enough. I mean, most people want to help. Yeah. So I think that's good. And then keeping the lines of communication open. As a business grows, the more lines of communication, it becomes exponential. When you just have four people or something, there's not that many lines of communication. When you get eight, then it's not doubled. It's actually gone from eight to 16 to 32 ways that people can communicate. So I think that's good.

20:44So what are the plans for the business moving forward? What are the dreams? I think it is, you know, we're now a year-round business. We have the taproom and the retail shop and the fly fishing that stay active year-round. We do a lot of events. Our biggest, I think our biggest next step is kind of fighting this, you know, the inflation and the cost of living war that's going on in Western North Carolina. and really trying to figure out ways to, you know, you're in the outdoor recreation business. Nobody gets into, nobody owns a fly shop or a paddle shop or any kind of outfitter to get rich. That's for sure.

21:26You know, and you want to pay your staff well and you want to try to get, you know, keep living wages year round. And that takes a lot in this industry. We are the first thing that a lot of people cut out when money gets tight, when the economy gets a little rocky. A lot of times we're the first. Leisure is the first thing that a lot of people cut out. And that's just a natural ebb and flow of the world we live in. So it's making sure that we have those events. We are staying creative. We're using our staff to keep fresh ideas, to keep people coming. But I think our next step is really trying to create, to continue to create a place where our staff can grow.

22:18We like to have staff come in and program develop if they want to create their own program, if they want to add a, you know, we just, we had an intern that's now, that came in about eight years ago and he did his summer, his free summer internship for here. And then he ended up applying for a job and we kept him on board. And now he's in his seventh or eighth year as being a full-time boy. He's just started a bass fishing program that's really kind of taken off and has been really growing strong the last three years. Got another staff member that's pretty new. That's kind of working in several different aspects of the company.

22:56That's really just started a hiking program, a guided hiking program. So it's really trying to help our staff get creative and do some things that they have a passion for and being like the foundation and the support for them. Because the more creative that they, you know, the more creative they are in those things, the more the more financially the business can kind of help continue with that. That cost of living increase and helping them support in all those ways. yeah I think you know having that database allows you to make more offers yeah to people so using the creativity of your team and you've got it sounds like you you do what I do which is basically they get an idea like all right you know give it a shot let's see let's see let's let's let's throw some spaghetti on the wall and see if it sticks and and they take our mission so serious It's wonderful that, you know, all of our staff really, we are known, we pride ourselves in being known as the customer service, the friendliest shop, the customer service driven organization.

24:08So people trust us with that. And our employees really take that serious. I mean, I used to cry over like a four star review. And I'd be like so upset, like, why didn't we get a five star review? But now I've been able to, you know, learn from that. Even if we get, you know, every now and then if we get like a three-star review, we all sit down and communicate. And they're just as upset as I am. And they're like, how do we fix this going forward? And that is key, I think, for any business to be able to use the feedback and the experiences with everybody on your staff. From our bartenders to our front desk to our fishing guides.

24:48We all, everybody knowing that we all have a piece of that customer service experience is crucial. Yeah. So last thought here. It sounds like you've got a great motivated staff. They want to be there. They want to be part of the industry. Are you intentional about the education and training with the staff or is it just sort of happening? I will say that's probably one of the things that I feel myself and like I'd say like my dad I feel like that's one thing that we can't we could do better is especially with new staff is a little bit more like it's just you have to learn how to train people a little different than you than you used to have to train people um you know I think and that's why I think I get that for being an athlete.

25:40I mean, I was an athlete my entire life, played two sports in college. So I've never really had to be like when I come in, whenever I came into a job, I'm pretty observant. And so I know what I need to do. I can see somebody do something and I realized that needs to get done. And you can kind of learn by experience. I think it's a little bit different today with our younger staff coming in. We have to do a little bit deeper training and a little bit more. I think they just learn a different way than I learned when I was starting out on the job. It's not a negative thing. Some people, I think, make it sound like a negative thing.

26:21It's not that the generation coming up is lazy or different. It's just they need to be trained and they need to learn. They have a lot of great skills they have a lot of great stuff to bring to the table but they are like and i think my dad gets it's i i crack up kind of with my dad because he can get frustrated the first but i'm just like they are different they're different than your generation and now i'm they're different than my generation and um and it is trying to i think that is one thing and that and that is one area where i feel like small businesses do struggle is it's an area that can be expensive.

27:02If you get online and you look at resources of staff development and how you train yourself to train your staff, all of a sudden you're spending thousands of dollars and it's, that's so expensive. And so it's not something that you feel a lot of small businesses feel like is feasible to put money into. So, and that's where I think these podcasts and conversations like this come in handy because it's, and you know, we're, I, I talk a lot to even our competitors that I'm friends with that run, you know, neighboring shops and outfitters. We all kind of experience that same issue and we talk and we communicate about it.

27:36Hey, this is what worked. This is what didn't work. But I feel like that is one area where I know I can do better. And our, you know, is getting that next generation kind of involved and showing them not just not how to work. They know how to work. It's just, you got to get them on board and it's a little different getting them on board and having them buy in than it is. Yeah. They, yeah, Yeah, they really, I agree 100%, by the way. This generation is great. They just need a little bit different way of learning. And they also need a purpose. Yes. And so as long as you're very missional, so that helps.

28:14And so if you have a mission or a purpose that they can get behind, then they're in. I mean, it's just a matter of, and they're quick. They just learn a little different way. They're quick when they want to be. so um it's good last question here what do you wish someone had told you that they didn't before you went into business oh um that's a great question i think i honestly probably it probably would for me go back to to college um i would have taken some different courses I would have taken, you know, I was a science major. I think I would, I wish what I wish I had done and it, or had somebody tell me was to slow down when kind of deciding my career path.

29:05I don't think taking eight years to get a four-year degree is the answer, but really focusing on making sure that you are thinking of what you want to do in your career before you invest into a lot of education. I see a lot of people go at, you know, and I coached high school volleyball. So I see a lot of my seniors jumping right into four-year school and they want to, they're just dead set on this career. And very few of them actually go that route. And I always try to tell them, hey, you know, take your time, you know, think about what you want to do in your career because I do wish that I had, you know, knowing what it takes now to run a business and knowing what skills I need on a day-to-day basis here are just not the classes that I took.

29:58I think they're out there. I think that those classes are there, those leadership. I think leadership is a huge one. When I was going through college, there really wasn't a focus on leadership as much. We were, I think if anything, almost trying to go away from that and be more team oriented. Um, and that's not a terrible thing, but I wish I had had more of those classes and, and more of those life skills. Um, because I, I did struggle and I still struggle some with, um, getting overwhelmed and letting that energy creep in and take over and even, you know, affect employees at certain times. And there's ways to manage that.

30:41And we, I don't think that is something we, um, we've talked about, or, you know, we, we, as a society in whole don't really talk about that, or we didn't, we, I hear it a lot more now, um, energy management and, you know, leadership skills. It's, it's more of a thing. The masterclasses are a great thing. I've, I've, I've taken a couple of masterclasses and learned more for certain skills I use here than I did in college. I loved my time at college. I had a great, great classes and a great degree with a lot of great professors, just not things that I use on a day-to-day basis now. Yeah, sometimes I think the, you know, our colleges and education system is actually set up

31:23to, I think it, I think the big lesson that people miss is the, is the people stuff, in my opinion, which is what you're talking about, the leadership, the interaction, the communication skills, those sort of things, learning how to live, in other words. You know, if you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer or some sort of profession, then the actual classes, I believe, matter more. Exactly. But there are classes out there in leadership and there are schools in entrepreneurship that, you know, if actually people were smart, I think sometimes we're just, you know, hit, like you said, head down. If you're an ambitious person, you're probably trying to achieve things and you want to get them done and you want to get it done fast.