From Military Aviation To A Neighborhood Woodworks Business with Frank Campagna

18:14Cliff McCray:And for some people that that's easy. And for me, it's not, it's not easy at all. So for me, you're having to, and it's not even that much. It's the, the estimate I did for the material was right on the pen, you know, right on the money. However, with, you know, certain delays and, and hangups and issues and stuff like that, it took two, three, four hours longer. So how do you tell somebody, Hey man, I'm going to have to charge you a little bit more labor. And so that, that to me is the hard part. That's, that's, that's what you would call the BS aspect of running a business like this is, you know, nobody wants to come to their, their friends or someone that they know and go, Hey, I'm going to have to charge a little bit more.

19:06Cliff McCray:So that's, that's to me, that's the hard part about owning a business is owning, owning that.

19:14Frank Campagna:Now, Frank, have you ever thought about quitting? And if so, what stopped you?

19:18Cliff McCray:Well, you know, I have not because again, I'm still in the, I'm still in the honeymoon phase of this business and I haven't, you know, we've all, whether is it not this job or a different job, we've, we've all run into that, that, that day where it's like, okay, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. I quit. I'm going to quit. This is, this is it. But fortunately for me, I have not, I have not found myself in that position yet. Okay. Okay.

19:50Frank Campagna:No, that's fair. That's fair. Now, what would you say? Now, have you, you know, let's see, I'm trying to figure out how to ask this. What's something about you in your personality or your personal life that had to change in order for your business to start to scale a little bit?

20:06Cliff McCray:has that have you had to do anything like that yeah yeah and that that is that that that's a great question because you know and you i'll give you an example a parable if you will so i was helping out a friend of mine two doors down and i was telling him i don't know what this is going to turn out i'm at my estimate is going to be and he kind of knew my personality which is charging friends and, and, and, and charging them fairly. And he said to me, he goes, Frank, he goes, you need to get that out of your mind because what's happening is you are taking away a blessing from somebody else that wants to give you a work that wants you to provide them with a good service and a good product.

20:59Cliff McCray:And then they want to be able to joyfully pay you for your services. And so you need to change that attitude of, because you're only going to screw yourself over and under, you're going to undervalue your, your work. And there had been a couple of times where, you know, I did a job for a friend of mine and I gave him the, the bill and he goes, this isn't right. And I said, no, this is what we said. He goes, well, you know, I had the day off and I told you I would help you. And I know what you did. And this is not the value of what you gave to me. And I said, I know, but that's what I said. So I have to stay by that.

21:45Frank Campagna:Yeah. You have to honor it.

21:46Cliff McCray:I have to honor it. And he goes, he goes, it's still not right. And my response to him was don't tell anybody what I charged you. and that's that's i don't think that's good business practice because i undersold it to a friend and so one thing i have to change and i'm still you know it's a daily something i work on daily which is how do you charge your neighbors even if they're you know even if they're not your friends right now eventually they will be you'll you'll run into them at the pizza parlor in our town or the little town center at one of the little, you know, village green, you know, events, you know, farmers markets that they do or food truck day that they do.

22:34Cliff McCray:And you're going to run into them. So they're your neighbors and now you're their friends. So for me, the thing that Frank has to change is the ability to turn on and off. Is this business or is this friendship? You know, right now we're in the business mode and then, you know, I'm going to charge you and I'm just going to have to go, Hey, if you found a better price and you feel like you can get a better deal, go for it. I think for me is I don't want to let down my friends because I know from a lot, what I've seen is a lot of these people, I wouldn't say they're back into a corner, but they're like, I have not been able to find anybody and the ones who do give me a bill, it's, it's way too much.

23:15Cliff McCray:And then you go, well, you know, it really is a fair price. And so you find yourself going, well, I'm going to appease my friends and just kind of come down a little bit on the price, even though it was a good price, but to them it wasn't. So that's where I'm having to change and kind of, I feel like I've got thick skin, but I'm just going to have to get even thicker skin when it comes to money and friends.

23:39Frank Campagna:Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. So, and this next question is hypothetical, but let's say if someone shadowed you for a full day or let's say even a full week, what would surprise them the most about how you operate your business? Would you say?

23:55Cliff McCray:Gosh, because of what I do is it's, it's so dynamic. It's, it's constantly changing. You know, one day I'm hanging up string lights for a graduation party and the next day I'm, you know, building a home office. And if they were to shout to shadow me, you know, some people would say, you know, I love this, you know, the constant change in environment. Or I don't, I don't like the, you know, the change in environment. There's no structure.

24:37Frank Campagna:yeah yeah some people would like it and some people wouldn't you're right yeah yeah they go

24:41Cliff McCray:i want to be able to go okay i got to be at work today at eight and then i'm going to be done by four or five o 'clock today but with me and you know you're talking people's homes some people will say hey frank here's my garage code have at it and then some people go i don't get home until 2.30 today. Can you meet me then? And that's where you have to, you know, one of the most unproductive things you can do is stop what you're doing, go see somebody, and then pick back up where you were, especially if you're at somebody's home and you go, hey, I've got to leave for an hour or two. I'll be right back.

25:23Cliff McCray:And, you know, in the back of their minds, whether you say that they are or not, they go, hold on a second, I'm paying you to be here to do this. You know, You're taking phone calls. You're taking an hour to go see somebody else. And I think that's kind of where the beauty is of being in the same neighborhood that all the jobs are in. You're literally within, at the most, 15 minutes from somebody's home. But if someone were to shadow me, they would say, you know, it can go either way. It can swing either way, left or right. I love this constant change. I don't like it because there's no structure and the hours are kind of weird.

26:02Cliff McCray:I don't like going into people's homes or I enjoy seeing how other people, you know, their decor or their paint schemes and so forth, especially for people who do like DIY or. Oh, my God, it's so hot out here. I don't want to do this anymore.

26:19Frank Campagna:Yeah, let me in your house, please.

26:20Cliff McCray:yeah that's like we're putting in pavers for a walkway to somebody's boat landing and you're like oh my god it's 100 degrees out here in the shade yeah i don't want to be here anymore

26:32Frank Campagna:yeah and for context on the podcast everybody we're recording a section early may it's actually been a very cool start to me so far uh so summer hasn't even kicked in yet which is great i'm i'm not and i'm not complaining but uh yeah just just giving some people the people some context here because you're talking about hot a lot. So go ahead. I'm sorry.

26:49Cliff McCray:No, no, no. I think that's about it. For me, you know, there could be some days I go, oh, my God, Frank, you know, when are you going to leave the house, man? You're lazy. And I could just say, hey, man, I put myself in this position for a reason.

27:06But I think, you know,

27:08Cliff McCray:if somebody shadowed me for a day, I also think that they're going to like how I talk to people. You know, I spoke with one older lady and she was just telling me her experience with a contractor that came out there and she was he was very, very nasty to her. And a lot of times people will do that because they don't want to do that job because it's outside of their wheelhouse or it's too small of a job. So that'll just be ugly to them. And then they'll just overcharge them to tell them no. And again, I've watched so many YouTube videos and talked to so many people. And then they go, oh, yeah, I did not want that job.

27:53Cliff McCray:And I wrote down some ridiculous price on the estimate. And they're like, all right. And so now I'm doing it and I don't want to, but I have to. And, and so for me, you know, the way I talk to people, you know, I don't want to come across as that creepy guy. I, I, I, I helped out a lady the other day about a month or two ago. And then her garage door openers stopped working. The batteries just quit working. And, you know, it was an unrelated event. And, you know, she had no one else to call. And she texted me. She's like, Frank, I hate to bother you. But I've been working on this, trying to replace the batteries.

28:41Cliff McCray:And I'm like, yeah, you know where I live. I'll come over to your house. I'll be there in five minutes. So I came over to their house. I knew what she needed. I replaced the batteries on all of her garage door openers for her cars. And, you know, gave her a hug. And she's let her talk because, you know, she needed somebody to talk to. let her talk for about, you know, I was there for five minutes replacing batteries. There's a little quarter size batteries in all her garage door openers. And then the next 30 minutes listening to her, her talk because she just needed somebody to talk to. And then she gave me a big old hug.

29:13Cliff McCray:I gave her a hug and then she goes, well, I know you said nothing. And, and so when people, people are shouting at me, they go, Holy cow. How do you, you know, how do you make, you know, you spent an hour of your day on a, on a Sunday afternoon. And, you know, that's weekend on-call type service. I said, well, you know, these are our neighbors. And, you know, a month or two or three down, you know, they're going to need something else and they'll know exactly who to call. So it's planting that seed, but it's also, you know, for someone to shadow me. There's one thing I am good at. It's knowing how to read people and how to develop that rapport.

29:52Frank Campagna:Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. So what would you say actually moves the needle most in your business right now? Would it be the leads, conversions, pricing, or your performance?

30:05Cliff McCray:I think a little bit of all. You know, it is absolutely mind-boggling to people when they call you and they say or they text you, hey, my neighbor XYZ gave me your number and had nothing but great things to say. Can you come over here and take a look? yeah, I'll be there. What time? And they said, how about five o 'clock? I get off work. Yeah, I'll be there five. And then they, I give them, you know, tell them, you know, what, what I would recommend or what they, what they want. And then they'll say, when do you think I can get an estimate? I'll have it written up for you by the end of the day.

30:44Cliff McCray:And when I mean day, I mean like before I go to bed and I'll email it to them. And it's a fillable, electronic, signable PDF where that, you know, you can review it, look at it, call me. It's got my home address on it, my personal phone number. It's got where they can agree to it, sign it digitally, and then email it back. And for me, what moves the needle is, you know, promptness, ability to go, yeah, I can't do that, or I'm not going to do that. Just be honest with them. Upfront, pricing, fair price. And there are a thousand apps out there. And I'll just give you a quick example. Lowe's, I'll do a job quote and I'll just do it exactly like that.

31:33Cliff McCray:And they'll go, hold on a second. The estimate is for$1 ,197.82. Where did you come up with that? And I'll go, I'll show you to the penny. Again, I don't say, oh, it's going to cost about$6 ,000 and then whatever's left over I pocket. No, you're paying for them. Because there are some handymen out there, though, that they'll want the customer to go with them to the store, pay for everything with their credit card, and then drive back to wherever their house is. And for me, I've got a business card. I've got an itemized listing of everything I spent on there. And so for me, that what moves the needle is, you know, professionalism, neatness, promptness, quality, obviously, and then fair pricing.

32:27Cliff McCray:This isn't something I need to do, but I enjoy doing it. And again, we're still kind of in the new phase of this. And so far, I think I've probably underpriced myself more than I have priced myself normal. So I'm still learning to. now holy crap that's a great price sure i'll do it it's like whoa

32:51Frank Campagna:you can do it and i don't have to do it yeah let's go man now yeah and i know you know you have said you know obviously you're really new at the you know doing this the business and everything like that so i wanted to ask you here i mean you know this is kind of a side question here really it's not not anything on here but do you have any plans to scale at all in the near future or in the future at all you know you know there there have

33:16Cliff McCray:been a lot of businesses out there that have really just exploded and it what started out as some dude named bill working in his garage building computer you know what i mean and then it just exploded didn't plan on taking it anywhere but the demand was there and did microsoft start out that

33:34Frank Campagna:way or something like that didn't they work out of their garage or something like that 90 in the

33:37Cliff McCray:90s or something you're correct you're correct yeah okay okay for me i i you know i'm a little long in the tooth for for really building and expanding and then passing it on to my children because they're they're they're going to be graduating college soon but for hiring anybody i i've had to manage people it's like herding cats man like these are grown-ass adults and you're you're having to deal with silly things but i i i think again not to go down the rabbit hole i i don't plan on really expanding with more people more trucks more you know a standalone business or home office i'm kind of content where where i am right now where it's you know you've got that personal relationship with your neighbors, you're going out and, and, and helping people and meeting people.

34:34Cliff McCray:And, you know, there've been a couple of times where somebody said, Hey, you know, my son would really be interested in learning how to operate that table saw or, you know, power tools. And I said, yeah, sure. By all means, he's more than welcome to come out here. And, you know, People who are on a timeline and time is money, they won't do that. And so for me, I don't want to lose that environment of being able to keep it slow, keep it personal, and then turn it into a teaching experience to, hey, can you help me put in a smart switch for this outlet? Yeah, absolutely. Do you know how this works?

35:18Cliff McCray:No, let me show you. And then they just look over my shoulder while we do it. And that way they can do it for themselves in the future. So yeah.

35:26Frank Campagna:Yeah. Next time.

35:26Cliff McCray:Yeah. And so for me, do I plan on expanding? I think we got really off topic there now, but that's not to say that it won't happen. Okay. Okay.

35:36Frank Campagna:Okay. All right. So yeah, we're going to head into what's called the quick fire round. So how this works is I'm going to give you one word and I just want you to tell me the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear each word in regards to running your business and then kind of expand upon why you chose that in a couple of sentences after that. Does that make sense? Okay, perfect.

35:54Cliff McCray:I'll do my best.

35:55Frank Campagna:All right, perfect. First word is success.

36:04Success.

36:05Cliff McCray:I mean, you strive for it. You know, a goal, how about goal? Goal is a one word goal for success. It's the goal. And I think, you know, I've got my health, I've got my family, they're all happy. And for me, I'm already successful. And the goal for that success is to maintain it, to keep building on it and to, you know, make sure that they stay happy, that they still stay healthy and that they stay, you know, grounded and they, you know, They still love God and they still love their dad. Failure. Failure. Not an option. No option. We all fail. It, you know, that's one of the sucky things about life is we all have to fail to learn.

36:56Cliff McCray:You know, a lot of times you have to learn from your mistakes. But there are people out there who failure, let's just put it this way. Failure is not in their vocabulary because it's expected. It's expected for them to make mistakes and then they're okay with it. They won't lose any sleep. But it should be the other way around. You try not to fail. You don't do your best not to let it happen. But what it does, you do learn from it. So it does become a success. But that's the difference between, I think, handymen who could sleep at night, even though they did a piss-poor job, and handyman who can't sleep at night because they failed.

37:37Frank Campagna:Burnout.

37:39Cliff McCray:It's real. I think we've all been burned out in one way, shape, or form, and it takes a toll of your physical and your mental acuity. And I think that's where I did a lot of interviews before I decided to start this job, And that burnout is part of that work-life balance. And so you want to avoid burnout because it's going to equate to what you just said earlier, which is failure. A lot of mistakes get made or failures occur because people are just burned out. And then they become unhappy and it kind of spreads like wildfire.

38:25Frank Campagna:Competition.

38:28Cliff McCray:Competition is good. Competition is very good. I had a commander one time tell me that competition breeds excellence. If you're out there and you're trying to be, there's another handyman out there, not in my particular situation, and he's out there undercutting you, underbidding you, and driving the price down, or doing better work or doing, you know, is more reliable or whatever the case may be. I think that competition does drive you to be better. I completely, completely love competition.

39:09Frank Campagna:And the last word is freedom.

39:12Cliff McCray:Freedom. Gosh, happiness. I think that, you know, we all, you know, we all want to be free from our, our, our, our bonds. Like you want to be free from fiscal responsibilities. You want to be free from being under somebody else's management. You want to be free from time. You need to time is the most expensive thing out there because there's no amount of money that can pay for some, for your, your time. You'll never get it back. So freedom, I think, is a success. We all want it. We all want to work so that one day you'll have that same joy of freedom.

40:00Frank Campagna:All right. Perfect. I appreciate that. Appreciate you getting through all those words there. So, yeah. So just to wrap things up here a little bit, you know, where do you see your industry going? You know, with the talk of AI and everything like that, where do you see your industry going in the next, you know, let's say five, 10 years?

40:16Cliff McCray:One, I love AI. And again, it's technology. It's what drives the train in marketing and sales and stuff like that. And I use AI every single day. But one of the things is because it's a tangible occupation, AI will never be able to hang those string lights for my friend's son's college graduation. AI will never replace, you know, replacing that attic door that the wooden steps broke and they can't access their attic anymore. AI is not going to take that away from me. However, I believe that AI is, you know, it's a great tool. It's, you know, I use it to help price. How much does someone normally charge to replace a ceiling fan?

41:22Cliff McCray:How much, you know, on chat GPT is not to put in a plug for chat GPT, but I tell you, it's, it's a fantastic tool. And you can take a photo of a pergola, you know, and go, Hey, chat GPT, how much would it cost in, in labor to build something like this? And it will really spit out a very, very close, you know, detailed account of what you're trying to do. So I think technology and AI in this industry will not, will not, it's not going to take the job away. It may take some of the aspects out of it, but at the same time, I think it's actually going to help with fair pricing, accurate pricing. Because if you give somebody a quote and then they will go online, they'll Google it or they'll chat GPT it and they'll go, how much would it cost for me to install this office?

42:18Cliff McCray:And they go, oh, wow, Frank's pretty accurate. Or that or we're just using the same app. I don't know. Yeah.

42:28Frank Campagna:No, chat GPT. I mean, it's something that, and especially with me, you know, I kind of do kind of clerical stuff, right? It's huge for me. I mean, I use it every single day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't use it. So it's, I mean, it's a huge help. But like you said, you know, you don't think it's going to take any work away from what you do, you know, handyman work and everything like that.

42:47Cliff McCray:No, no. And again, and I'll give you kind of an example. So my daughter's a business major as well. And she was going to, she was leaning in the marketing aspect. And she had changed her major or she had declared her major her sophomore year. and it was going to be marketing. And she took a class and it basically talked about how, and I remember those same classes, you know, umpteen years ago, how, you know, back then they were tracking your cell phone and they knew that you were going into Best Buy or, you know, Foodline or whatever the case may be. And all of a sudden you'd get these indicators on, you know, coupons or sales or stuff like that.

43:29Cliff McCray:So that to me back then was a little scary, But I knew that the way of the brick and mortar was kind of going away and it was going to become more of an e-commerce. But my daughter, again, she was talking about becoming a marketing major. And then after one semester taking a couple of marketing classes, she said, I'm not doing it because AI is going to take away, you know, because it can develop all these algorithms and know what you're watching on all your social media platforms and your phone and Google and what you're watching on streaming services that they will cater to what you're looking for or what you need.

44:11And who hasn't been talking about getting a new pair of, you know, flip flops for the beach and then all of a sudden you're scrolling through Facebook.

44:20Cliff McCray:You didn't even type it up. It just was like, holy cow. Like, why do I have Birkenstock flip-flops on my advertising on Facebook? It's absolutely bananas. And that's where AI marketing is going. So she ended up changing it into something else. But I think it's a great tool. I mean, we're able to do so much more efficiently with it now. We just have to see what the needs are outside of it. But again, I think, you know, AI is not going to come in and put in, you know, 100 feet of 12-inch pavers for someone's backyard anytime soon. Yeah, I agree.

45:04Frank Campagna:Now, and I want you to be as candid as you can on this, you know, pretty much last question here. Am I allowed to swear?

45:10Cliff McCray:I'm just kidding. Yeah.

45:11Frank Campagna:I mean, if you need to, just as long as it's light, you know, nothing. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

45:15Cliff McCray:I'll keep it PG-13. Go ahead.

45:18Frank Campagna:All right. All right. So, yeah. So, you know, let's say a small business owner is listening to the podcast episode with you today, Frank, and let's say they're just having a bad day or let's just say they're having a bad week or just a bad start to 2026 in total. I mean, we're almost halfway through the year already. Crazy. What? Yeah, it's going fast. But let's say they're just feeling stuck or overwhelmed. They're not profitable. Business is just not going well. What's a piece of advice you'd want them to hear from you today or that you would give to them today?

45:45Cliff McCray:wow that that's a pretty deep question because you know i don't want to sound like a like a debbie downer but like no amount of great vibes or attitude or like keep your chin up is going to pay the bills you know you know what i mean yeah or keep working keep working towards your dream

46:07Frank Campagna:like you should especially when gas is four dollars or four dollars a gallon yeah like

46:11Cliff McCray:Hey, man, grocery bills have gone up twice or 100 % in the last 10 years. So for me, it really is. If somebody is having a bad year or it's not kind of their short-term plans aren't going as well as they were hoping, they're not generating the revenue that they want. But I think, you know, for me, a piece of advice I would go is, you know, if it's not working now, it's not going to work tomorrow. It's not going to work. You know, if what you're doing right now is not working, try something else. And in my business, it's kind of neat because there are forums, there are Facebook chat groups. and what's kind of neat about, and I think this is the case in any business, if you were to call a business on the other side of the country, a lot of people will tell you what they learned or what worked for them or what didn't.

47:16Cliff McCray:Get out there and network. Get out there and do some more research because if you've got a handwritten sign that says handyman services stuck in, in, you know, the entrance to a neighborhood or in front of McDonald's, it's probably not going to work. Maybe, you know, doing some, you know, creating a, a Google site where people can leave reviews or, you know, flyers or, or, or, you know, starting, you know, different business loans, you know, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, kind of such a vague or an open-ended topic, but for me, it's, you know, don't wait for something good to happen. You got to go out there and you got to make, you got to make it happen.

48:04Cliff McCray:Gosh, I'm trying to put myself in that position and it's, it's kind of hard for me because, you know, I've been blessed and, you know, things have kind of, you know, kind of everything just recently has been falling into place. But if, if I, if, if, if, uh, if what I'm doing is not working, you know, reach out to other people in that same industry to see if they would help. And, you know, what's the worst they're going to do? They're going to say, yeah, no, I'm not going to tell you my trade secrets. Cause I'm not going to, I don't want you to take in any of my business. That's kind of why I was saying, talk to people outside of, outside of your local area so they won't feel threatened by your, your, you know, your, yeah, your presence or your question.

48:44Cliff McCray:And that's why, you know, all I did was, you know, when I were, when, when I seriously started thinking about starting this, I called people in, in Atlanta, called people in Charlotte, I called people in Charleston, I called people in, you know, as far as Savannah and just talk to them. And I find most people want to share their lessons learned. And here's a lesson that, you know, and we'll just use this as an example. Let's just say that, you know, in the handyman service, a lot of people think that I know what I'll do is I'll get in business with some of these local real estate agents. and when people are buying a house and they want it updated before they move in or they're trying to fix punch list stuff so that they can put their house in a market because the inspector said this gfi is broken or this microwave needs to be replaced i'll be in with the real estate agents in the area and they'll they'll send me business and that's where i'm going to generate my revenue and i and i spoke with one guy who said yeah that's what i do and then i spoke with another a guy and said, don't do that.

49:58Cliff McCray:And I said, well, why wouldn't I do that? And he said, well, the thing about real estate is these people are either making commission or they're not. And if they call Frank and say, Hey, I need about three days worth of stuff fixed. And to them, like three days, it's like, Oh, I can do that. And it ends up being two weeks. And then say, you're busy. You go, well, when do you want it done? I need it done by the end of the week. Why? Because we need to close on Tuesday, I'm not going to be able to get there and they'll go, okay, thanks for your help. And then they'll move on. They'll just basically take your number and they'll put it away.

50:35Cliff McCray:They won't get rid of it. They'll put it away until they need you again, but they're going to go to the next guy and then they're just going to ask him and then they're going to, and then so on. And so just because let's say that handyman is not doing so well because he, he put all of his eggs in one basket by relying solely on, on real estate agents, he may have pissed somebody off, or he may have, I wouldn't even say made him mad, but he, he could not deliver for them when they needed. And so they just moved on. It's nothing personal. It's just business. And, and so then they get down, they're upset.

51:09Cliff McCray:No one's calling me. What did I do wrong? You know, I did everything right. Everything's pricing. It's like, no, it's because you did everything right, but you just could not deliver and therefore they've moved on. And now you're taking it personal. So diversify, find something else. But at the same time in my business, I also found a couple of dudes who said, you know, find your niche. Find, like, are you really good at sheetrock? Then kind of cater towards sheetrock stuff. But if you suck at building decks, don't advertise it. You could do decks because then that's, you know, because that's That's one job that'll ruin you if it gets out or painting or doing carpet or whatever the case may be.

51:54Cliff McCray:And then don't advertise. And I did. My wife and I, we were on a road trip, and we probably wrote down 100 things that I felt like I was pretty good at doing. anywhere from, you know, leveling doors that are kind of rubbing or fixing cracked tile or replacing faucets, air filters, lights, you know, all this stuff. And then you can, you know, if you decide to create a page, you can have all this stuff listed. And the guy goes, don't do that because people are going to look at that and they're going to go, you know, he does a lot of stuff. But he, you know, I had a test pilot tell me one time he goes, I could do a lot of things half ass or I could do a few things really well.

52:42Cliff McCray:And so that's kind of what I would recommend for somebody, you know, find the stuff that you're really strong at. Because if you're having that slumping and your business is sucking, you know, look at yourself in the mirror and say, you know what? And be honest with yourself. And I think that's a lot of times people are, they, they, um, they're not, they're not honest with themselves. Maybe this isn't something I should be doing. Again, I've talked to a lot of handymen and they go, can I tell you something interesting, Frank? I said, sure. He goes, do you know who gets into the handyman services?

53:20Cliff McCray:I said, no. People who suck at carpentry, people who suck at, who are not good at anything else and they can't hold down the job. So what do they do? they start a handyman service because they don't have to deal with people that I have to, you know, and all of a sudden they show up with piss poor tools and, you know, a half broken down truck and, you know, and dirty clothes and, you know, ragged shoes. And it's because they, they can't do anything else. And so a lot of times you'll find handyman who just absolutely suck at what they're doing. And then they end up taking advantage of people. Then they don't want to call them back.

53:55Cliff McCray:Their phone numbers are out of state. And so a lot of people get into the handyman service because they suck at, you know, they can't hold down a job doing anything else. And so if you are having a tough time, you know, maybe you are doing something wrong. Maybe it's not the economy. I mean, maybe it's not, you know, you know, because things need to get fixed whether you want to or not. You know, whether you, you know, whether you try to say what I'm coming across as crass. But let's just say, hey, man, but AC guy, how about this? The guy goes, hey, man, I got it. It's going to cost a lot of money to replace this air conditioning unit in July.

54:46Cliff McCray:And people don't pay it anyway because they got to get it done.

54:49Frank Campagna:Oh, yeah.

54:50Cliff McCray:July. And that's the thing about handyman is to me, and again, I could be completely wrong. There are a lot of things that need to get done because, you know, their doors don't lock or their door won't close all the way or won't open or their, you know, their faucets leaking in there. You know, whatever the case may be, they got to get it done. And so the work is out there. There is no shortage of work. but it's how am I performing across all the facets of owning a business that either draw people in or push people away. Okay.

55:33Frank Campagna:Okay. And so, yeah, this has been a fantastic conversation, Frank. Yeah. So what's the best way for someone to connect with you a little more about what you do?

55:42Cliff McCray:They can obviously email me. I think I gave you my, my email address. I have no problem talking to people on the phone. That's one thing my wife says is one of my downfalls is I talk too much or explain things too much. But I'm more than willing to just have a phone conversation with anyone if this is something that they're interested in doing. and at the same time you know I'm kind of new at this too so you may want to take what I say with a grain of salt or that you may go oh but it's kind of neat hearing it from a new you know it's still fresh on your you know it's still kind of new to you versus people who have been doing it for 30 years and they're just mad at the world oh don't do it it sucks people suck you know gas sucks driving sucks material sucks you know lumber is expensive and the quality is bad you're not going to get anywhere with that you want to talk to the the the young guys who are who are doing this and but uh to give out my number if they you know they can reach out to me i have no problem answering my phone yeah yeah if you want to go ahead and give it out over there Yeah, that's fine.

57:05Cliff McCray:Sure. Well, actually, let me just give you my email address, and then that way you can email me, and then we can kind of start the conversation that way. But my work email is one word. It's companionwoodworksatgmail.com. That will be C-A-M-P-A-G-N-A-W-O-O-D-W-O-R-K-S at gmail.com. Sorry, I did that from the top of my head. A lot of letters. But it's at companionwoodworks at gmail.com. And again, and then when I respond, my signature block is down at the bottom with all my contact information. and I'll just root them apart. And then they can reach out to me that way. And again, at the same time, I'm an open book, but at the same time, if there's a guy out there who has been in the business for a year or two, which is obviously longer than where I've been, and they go, hey, I would love to share this nugget of information that I gained, and I would love to share it with him.

58:19And yeah, by all means, man,

58:22Cliff McCray:And I am I no matter even in my old occupation, I was never. And again, I think that's one of my strengths is I was never above taking recommendations from the youngest guy in the organization.

58:38Frank Campagna:Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. All right, Frank. Well, yeah, this has been fantastic. Thank you for coming on and sharing your story, your perspective. I'd really like to you know what I really like to do is I'd really like to come back to this maybe two or three years from now and see, you know, what's changed or what's been updated. It'd probably be cool to hear how things have pivoted in that time. What do you think about that?

58:57Cliff McCray:Yeah, absolutely. By all means, feel free to reach out to me. And I'll be more than happy to listen in, how this podcast went and then where we are today. And yeah, thank you for the invite. I will definitely take you up on it.

59:17Frank Campagna:Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. All right, thanks for it.

59:20Cliff McCray:All right, thank you. Have a lovely day. All right. You too. Bye.

59:23Frank Campagna:Bye-bye. All right. So how did you, how'd you think that went?

59:30Hey,

59:31Frank Campagna:thanks for listening to the Epic Entrepreneurs podcast. Here's three things that you can do. Number one, remember to subscribe to the podcast. It takes very little effort on your part. It's going to help you and your fellow entrepreneurs. Plus you, you guys know how it works. The more subscribers we get, the more cool things we can offer to you. Second, to learn more about growing your business, just download my book, The Coach Approach. It's free for you at giftfrombill.com. That's giftfrombill.com. Hey, and if you'd like more info about growing your business and what we can do to help you grow your business, send me an email directly.

1:00:18Frank Campagna:Just send it to williamgilliland at actioncoach.com. That's my personal email that I read. No one else reads it first. It's not screened. It's my real email. Just send it to me.

1:00:32Cliff McCray:I can't wait to talk to you. Hey, and until then, all the best.