From Recession to Success: How BCA Architecture Grew Through Community with Brent Campbell and Erin Foy

0:02Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of the Epic Entrepreneurs podcast where we are all about helping business owners just like you achieve success. So we don't do fancy smancy. We don't do flashing lights. We don't do a lot of things that a lot of podcasts will do. These are just real stories about real people and their entrepreneurial and business experiences. We go into their wins, their challenges, and their learnings. So we hope you enjoy it.

0:36Hey there, welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs. I'm Bill Gilliland, your host. I am the principal at Action Coach Business Growth Partners and one of the founders of the Asheville Business Summit. I am super pumped today. I have Brent and Aaron from BCA Architecture and Design. I can't wait to hear their story. So welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourselves and how you got here. Oh, I'm Brent Campbell. I'm the owner and principal of the architecture firm. We started this in 2007. I've been working in Nashville for about three or four years at some other firms and learning and after traveling around and working and going to school in different places.

1:24and started this in 2007, the day that the recession hit, which was not great timing, but it worked out as you're kind of learning how to start something new. It's probably, in retrospect, good timing. But over the years, we've grown to staff of eight and done a lot of exciting projects and had a lot of fun along the way and plan to keep it going here for a little bit. um i'm aaron foy i'm the other architect in the office and um i joined this firm in 2015 after working at another firm here in ashville um um yeah from here grew care left for school a couple different times and came back then left again and um it's just a good place to be and a good place to practice architecture and yeah that's where i'm at yeah it is i mean it it seems like there's a lot of interesting projects and a lot of interesting things going on around ashville so in western north carolina so i i agree with you it's a it's kind of must be it must be a from a design standpoint of you it must be a really interesting place to practice yeah i'd say and it's continuously evolving.

2:41I mean, from, well, especially since, I don't know, from the recession to through COVID through Helene's or there's, it's just, you know, it's, it's always changing in terms of what we're doing and who's coming to town and who's interested in building here and projects are happening and who can afford to do what. And so, yeah, it's definitely, it's constantly evolving. Yeah. I think we're, you know, Asheville, I mean, Helene, you know, Obviously, it was a setback, but we're back on the rise again. So it's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool place. Let me ask you a question. If you had to start it over again, what would you do differently?

3:20I don't know. I think it's been such a fun and wild and diverse ride. I don't know if I would. I would probably try to figure out how to make our systems more efficient and, you know, just some monetary things about, you know, I have no business background, so that took a pretty big learning curve. But as far as the experience, I don't know if that would change a whole lot because it's just kind of evolved from just being a reaction, right, to whatever kind of the community was needing and wanting. Like for a while, we've done a lot of small commercial projects. When those have been, we've done a lot of residential projects.

3:59We've met a lot of really fun business owners along the way and create long-term relationships with repeat clients. And, yeah, there's definitely micro things that have changed. But as far as the big picture of just kind of feeling our way through this and becoming a part of the community and touching so many different parts and projects and meeting so many people, it's been a pretty good experience. So I'd be hesitant to tinker with it. Yeah, I get that a lot, actually. I think the experiences we have make us who we are. So I do get that, hey, I might do this or I might tweak this thing, like you just said, like I might have worked on systems earlier or I might have had some business education or something along those lines.

4:44So along the way, there had to be learnings. So what are some of the biggest learnings that you guys have had? There's been several. I mean, for me, I've been here since the beginning, obviously. It was a lot of just realizing the value of having a team and letting people excel at what they're good at and kind of letting go and kind of utilizing the benefits of having a team. And just the strength of that and the support they can get from a studio environment. You know, a lot of architects kind of work in one room by themselves. And I'd say the majority in the country are sole proprietors. And that's just a kind of a different existence.

5:27And I think there's a lot of value on that. But what was really enlightening for me was just the value of kind of a hive mind and working together and sharing information and supporting each other and kind of letting everyone in the office have ownership over projects and being accountable. So, like, that was really enlightening for me. And I actually learned that from when I moved to town. I worked for a really good architect named Robert Griffin. And he sort of had that same approach where he gave us so much autonomy and independence and kind of helped us along the way. And it was just, you know, I never had an experience like that where all the team members are accountable for what happens.

6:06And so I learned a lot from that. Yeah, and I love that. So tell us about your team. Well, it's me. And Aaron's a licensed architect that oversees a lot of projects and designs a lot of projects. And we have an intern and we have an interior designer, which has been a lot of fun to have that component at our office. She brings a lot of experience and diversity to our projects. And we have several designers, several, I'd say four designers, that kind of all manage independent projects and work together and collaborate. Great. So what's the difference between like designers and what y 'all do? Well, it has to do mostly with licensure and passing the tests and going through the steps to get your license.

7:01So the other kind of there's the interior designer. And so that's where her background is, her educational background is. And then there's an intern who went to architecture school, but hasn't worked long enough and passed all the tests to be licensed. And then there's four other designers who all also went to architecture school, but then just didn't go through the licensure process or haven't gone through it yet. And so like with a license, there's more liability. There's more responsibility. but then there's also the capacity to like practice solo and do commercial stuff and whatnot. So you have more options with a license, but you also have, I think a lot more responsibility and liability.

7:47Got it. Yep. Got it. I got it. So, so what are some of the common misconceptions about running in an architecture firm and how would you address those? i would say not that there are misconceptions but just a lot of the public is sort of confused about what we do like a lot of the a lot of clients that we get they've never worked with an architect before and really don't even know what they're stepping into or how much it costs or how long does it take and do i even need an architect and so there's just a general lack of um just understanding about our field just in the general public and that's understandable because most people go through their whole lives and don't hire an architect to do anything.

8:32Like, we're not required to help you design your house or, you know, unless you're starting a business or designing a big custom home. Like, a lot of people don't interact with us, you know. But for some reason, Asheville is such a small town, but we end up working on a lot of projects. We're kind of a highly regulated sort of building department here. And so that kind of brings us and the different architects around town into a lot of projects to figure out life safety and occupancy and all the technical side of things. And that's just kind of something people aren't used to. And if someone wants to open a coffee shop, they think they can just rent a space and open it up and start selling coffee.

9:09But there's just a lot of paperwork between that and opening up. And so we ended up having to explain that process quite a bit and seeing with homeowners, like, what value do we bring and how do we get you from your ideas on Pinterest to then starting construction of the home. So none of that is a misconception. There's just a lot of explaining that has to kind of go on because people don't normally interact with architects on a daily basis. Yeah, well, it's a project-based profession. And, I mean, most people would do, in a lifetime, maybe one, maybe two projects. I mean, they're obviously the ones that do multiple projects, developers and those kind of people.

9:53But, I mean, it's got to be. Yeah, I get it. I mean, you guys do the stuff all day long, and then most people are walking in sort of ignorant of how it works. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I like that. I like that. So you guys have obviously grown. I mean, it started with you, and you started in the recession, and that's now eight people. So what do you attribute that growth to? I would um there was no real strategy like this has all just kind of been reactionary and kind of safe it's like um you know we didn't grow and then find the projects it was more like oh gosh we have an overwhelming number of projects that we definitely want to do and we're not going to not do these they're incredible opportunities and so then we would grow to to match that opportunity so I'm not sure if that's kind of the the right path or not it's kind of a safer way to grow rather than, you know, projecting all this volume and staffing up and that sort of thing.

10:53And so I would say there wasn't, there wasn't any real strategy that it was just me seeing these opportunities to have a really fun career and touch all these different projects and be a part of it. And then, you know, having enough people and resources to do that. So that's kind of what we struggled with for a long time. It's like, we have these projects, how are we going to get them done? well I have a slightly different perspective just coming in after he had been doing it for eight years and I think that part of what has like contributed to the growth is just like a positive experience that previous clients had or his friends have had or you know people around town and so that kind of word of mouth reputation spreads and it creates more projects and it creates repeat clients.

11:43And so it's like, you know, if you offer a positive service and people have a good experience, then either they tell their friend or they come back for their next project or whatever. So I think when I started, that was my perception of like, well, he just has this really good base and has a good reputation, you know? And so I think that has kind of continued. And I think that's contributed to the growth, whether, you know, that was real intentional or not. Like, I think that was a big piece of it. Cause like, as far as marketing goes, I was like, you know, we've never been super aggressive. Or competent.

12:15Yeah. Well, no, it's all right. I mean, it seems like you've staffed up as you needed to, but that positivity and that sort of, I get it. You guys seem like you have fun. I mean, enjoy what you do and like being at work and love doing things. I mean, I've always thought architecture was a cool profession anyway because you get the, I mean, you can design something and then it's there for a while. And you can say, hey, that's cool. That's something I had something to do with creating this beautiful piece of something, whatever it is, whether it's a building or house or whatever it is. I've always thought that was cool.

12:51I don't have the aesthetic. My gifts lie other places, but I certainly do appreciate what you guys are doing out there. So let me ask you something. When you are looking for an employee, what are you looking for? Hmm. That's a good question. Um, it's mostly, uh, where in our realm of what we do, um, it's mostly, um, versatility and positivity and, um, I guess adaptability because there are days in here when you have no idea what's going to happen and you kind of have to be flexible enough to shift gears and change the way. hats and i mean the the projects we have are just all over the board you know we do medical facilities and barns and houses and greenhouses and you know restaurants and bars and you kind of have to be pretty flexible and open-minded and so i guess um all the technical stuff you can kind of learn and so a lot of people have come in here had no experience with the software and um kind kind of very little experience with project management, but that's, that's stuff that's all pretty teachable if you put the hours on.

14:09And so what I've found is just, it's more of the mindset of wanting to get after it and being positive and being able to communicate kind of all the tangibles. And there's been different times, like I think along the way, at least that I've been here that, you know, we'll be like, ah, we need somebody like that's bringing a ton of creative, creativity, you know, that's just going to like throw crazy ideas out there. Or like, we need somebody that is real excited about the technical stuff, because we need help in the production area with the technical stuff, you know. And so there have been times that we're like, this is the type of person we need.

14:46But ultimately, like, when, you know, when we have gone to hire somebody, it has more to do with like, what Brent said, it's like enthusiasm and versatility. And like, you know, are they going to be able to kind of figure some stuff out on their own? Because we don't have a real specific training structure in place for when like, okay, we have a new person, so-and-so is going to train them. And then so-and-so is going to work with them this way. It just is pretty organic in terms of how they fit in and to the whole process and the office and everything. And so, yeah, that ability to figure it out on your own and then also take, you know, feedback and work with people and ask questions.

15:22And it's really important in a small office that doesn't have a real specific structure. Well, I mean, I love it. I mean, it's the culture you've created, versatility, adaptability, positivity. I mean, that's pretty hard to beat. I mean, that sounds like a fun place to work. So, yeah, to me, I mean, there may be some people would hate that, but that would be, you know, I'm one of those idea people. So let me ask you, so BEPIC is sort of my acronym for our business. And I'm going to just give you a, you know, I'll give you what the letters are and then you give me your thoughts. sort of a quick fire round of what it is.

16:04Give me a word or a sentence or two about each one. So the B stands for bring the energy. What do you think about that, Erin? Like with respect to BCA or just respect to the job or what? However you want to do it. Just what do you think about energy? Well, I think it's really important, at least with our clients, to kind of maintain that energy and enthusiasm for regardless what the project is and where they're at in the process. I think it's pretty important to maintain like the energy for them because it can be a pretty difficult, grueling process to go through, whether it's commercial or residential.

16:40And so just kind of being supportive with them and helping them through that in an energetic way, maybe. It's a long haul for people. You know, some of our residential clients are in here for almost a year. And so there's a project fatigue that happens. And if the designer's not bringing the energy and, you know, they're running out of energy because of the, just the length and the kind of nature of getting something built in Western North Carolina, like it definitely takes a lot of energy to enthusiasm and get through it. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that like, you know, building something is kind of a short term marriage.

17:17And, you know, I mean, so, I mean, it's a, that's a good point that you've got to show up with the energy to keep the, keep the process moving. And so because there's going to be lows, right? There's going to be highs, but there's going to be lows. So for the most part, it kind of happens organically. Like it is exciting when someone's designing and building a house. And if it's exciting for us, then it's an honor for us to do it. And so there's just kind of a natural energy and enthusiasm that happens. Like there are definitely dips, you know, when it comes to hitting bumps along the way. But for the most part, like this profession kind of generates its own excitement.

17:49Yeah, it's cool. It's cool. Okay. The E stands for education. Yeah. Um, that's kind of a big deal in our profession. Like Aaron was saying about licensure, you really have to, you have to go through a bachelor program, you have to go through a master's program or some combination of those. And that's kind of, that's a lot of school for them. And the back end of our profession doesn't have the same financial rewards as, you know, some of the other ones where you go to school for six or seven years. And, um, so there is kind of a big commitment when it comes to, um, just the formal education. And so getting through that, getting to the field kind of takes a minute, especially, you know in today's terms where there's all these shortcuts and things that can happen they can do without all that process and so there's you know those bachelor's and master's internship there's the exams there's all these things that you know stand in the way between high school and being an architect and um they're all doable and helpful but then the real education actually happens like once you start you know like school can only simulate real projects so much and so the the The bulk of our education happens in that first, you know, five years of being in an office and sitting at the computer and going through the process of a whole project.

18:59I would also add to that, like, we kind of have to be intentional about staying in front of the latest materials and technologies and things that are happening. Because when clients show up, lots of them do their own research, you know, or they'll hear from their friends or whatever. And they bring a new material or they ask about this new, you know, I don't know, wall assembly or something. And so we kind of have to stay in front of that, too, so we don't look like we're, you know, living in the past few decades and haven't really kept up with things and the evolution of all the different things that go into construction, whether it's a house or commercial stuff.

19:34And on top of that, like building code stuff like that is just it's so enormous. And so whether it is residential or commercial, like the building code stuff is kind of evolving. And that we have to stay in front of because, you know, if we screw that up, that's a big deal. And so, like, every project, we still are learning, you know, all these different kind of pieces of it. We have to keep, yeah, keep on top of it. Yeah, I don't think the complexity of the building code sucks. So it's codes, not just codes. I mean, you guys work in a lot of jurisdictions. They can be different. I mean, I know the North Carolina building codes one thing, but then they've got it for all the jurisdictions.

20:15So, I mean, that's a tough ask. So, well done on that. So, the P is planning. So, you guys do plans, so let's talk about planning a little bit. Planning is hard. You know, there's this famous quote from, I think it was Mike Tyson, where everyone has a plan to get punched in the face, you know. So there are several months we come in here with the, there's a general plan and, you know, we have a big whiteboard, you know, with a matrix of what's going on and who's doing what. And you end up doing a lot of erasing and moving and putting things here and putting things there. We have a general framework of a plan, but like I said, like this is, this is an environment here in Asheville where things stop and start with very little notice.

21:01There's projects that are gung-ho and we've dedicated staff to them and we're all ready to go. and then we get a call that it's not happening. Or we get a call that someone who mothballed their project two years ago is ready to go. And so we have a framework of a plan and we have systems in place to move things around, but we can't ever look that far out. And I think if we did, we'd miss a lot of opportunities and we'd end up scrambling. So our plan is to have a loose plan. I like it. I like it a lot. Okay. The C stands for commitment. Oh, I skipped I. Let's do I. I is inspiration. Oh, yeah. Well, gosh, there's inspiration everywhere.

21:46I mean, especially now with like just all the access to anything you can find online, whether it's Pinterest or Instagram or anything like we're constantly being flooded with inspiration in terms of like projects that would be really cool or ideas or things like that. And then sometimes it's just like the clients coming in that have this really beautiful idea of what their project is going to be, whether it's a house or a commercial project or whatever. So that's also inspiring when clients come in and they're so passionate about whatever they're going to do. And it's not just about checking boxes to get, you know, the right, I don't know, double oven in the kitchen or something.

22:22So I think that we have a lot of sources of inspiration. Yeah. Whether it's the media or clients or just, yeah, being around here. I mean, obviously around here, it's been this super resilient community and people are resourceful. And whether it's the things that, you know, everybody has been through or also just this is a hard place to build. And so people have to be somewhat creative and resilient. And that's pretty inspiring, let's say. Yeah. And if you're not inspired by the just the natural beauty we have here and as an architect in Western North Carolina, like we're in a pretty privileged place to have the scenery and the landscape and the resources we have.

23:02And for a small town, we have a ton of architects. And all the ones I know are inspiring, and they want to do things that are sustainable and ecological and fit in the landscape for long-term planning. And so there's a lot of people here that are inspiring, and definitely the environment's inspiring. Yeah. No, I like it. I like it. Yeah. The C is commitment. So what are your thoughts on commitment? Well, it's too late for me. I've been doing this for 30 years, so I'm committed and can't do anything else. So that just kind of happened because it's, you know, hard to switch gears at some point in your life.

23:34And so now I'm just kind of committed to making sure everyone here has a sustainable future and a fun place to work and be able to live in Asheville, which is kind of a hard thing to do in the service industry. So I'm committed to seeing this through and just kind of building on what we've created here as far as generating ideas and producing things that people need to get through the process. Love it. You got any more thoughts on that, Erin? I mean, I guess I can look at it like at more of a micro level, just that, you know, with each of the projects, like it takes a certain level of commitment to stay invested in it.

24:13and to stay connected with the client and to bring the same amount of enthusiasm towards the end of the project that we inevitably bring at the beginning because the beginning is so exciting. It's all brand new. And then towards the end, like he's mentioned project fatigue, I think it takes a certain amount of commitment to just stay invested and keep up with everything, keep up with the client and kind of hold their hands through the process from beginning to end. Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. So what's the next thing for the firm? I guess you'll have to have us on next year and we'll let you know.

24:58There's a crazy war out there. We thought we'd spend this whole year just doing flood repair and helping people dig out. And that's just been kind of a process. People are waiting for their money. People are waiting to figure out what to do, how to rebuild in the floodplain. So we thought we kind of knew it was coming. And we are doing some of that. And, you know, we thought we were going to be doing, you know, one thing. And then you can look back over the year and we've done something totally different. So I think the forecast for Asheville is still pretty strong. I think everyone still loves it and is committed to it.

25:34But we have no idea what's going to happen.

25:39You got any thoughts, Erin?

25:45No, I mean, we're constantly brainstorming like, oh, do this, do this. we do that, you know, but it's like, you know, kind of probably just the same way that company has evolved since he started. It's like things happen kind of organically and like it just, whatever, there is some like definite value to intentionality and like picking a path and like going in a direction, but also there's a lot of value to just being open to kind of whatever's happening in front of you and following those signs and those paths and, you know, So, yeah, a plan is good, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't have much more.

26:22Yeah, I was reading a book the other day, and they were talking about, like, what they were really talking about was test and measure. They used an analogy of, like, you know, firing a bullet in a direction and seeing if it hit something. And then if it did, then you could fire a cannonball, in other words. But if you fired and missed a lot, then it was sort of just test and measure. So I think that's probably a way, you know, try a path and see what happens. Try another path and see what happens. And then you can go all in on a path that seems to be working, you know. So I think that's actually a plan that, you know, a way to plan, you know, for the other third.

27:01So the last thing is how do people get in touch with you? It's the best way. um well like i the website has all the contact information on it um and um or we're down on the south slope like you know we do have people stop by we don't have cold calls necessarily but um we're always open if people want to come in and talk and or call us up or um email or whatever yeah we're pretty available and responsive let's say yeah so what's what's the website it's www.bcavl.com bcavl.com got it we keep overhead low so we don't if you call the phone number it's just my cell phone so you can talk you don't have any administrative people so well that makes sense to me you know if you want to yeah if you want to if you want to chat give them a call so out there hey look really appreciate you this is a fantastic story I've enjoyed again I appreciate you guys being part of the community and all you're doing.