Sales With Mike Bosworth

0:02Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of the Epic Entrepreneurs podcast where we are all about helping business owners just like you achieve success. So we don't do fancy smancy. We don't do flashing lights. We don't do a lot of things that a lot of podcasts will do. These are just real stories about real people and their entrepreneurial and business experiences. We go into their wins, their challenges, and their learnings. So we hope you enjoy it. Hey there, welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs, brought to you by Action Coach Growth Partners. I'm your host, Bill Gilliland, and in this podcast, you'll find three things.

0:46You're going to hear real stories from real entrepreneurs that will help you along your entrepreneurial journey. You're also going to get business tips to help you scale up faster, and you're going to get actual coaching to help you get better real world results to be the best entrepreneur you can be. Hey, and if you like the podcast, remember to subscribe. And now, enjoy the show. Hi there, I'm Mike Bosworth and I'm coming to you from Orcas Island, Washington and I'm a retired career sales trainer. So how did you get into the business of sales training in the first place, Mike? Well, I had the good fortune when I graduated from college of getting an entry-level position with a startup division of Xerox in 1972.

1:38And this division invented cloud computing. And in 1969, they had a central computer in Los Angeles, 50 local clients, manufacturing distribution companies, some public governments and police departments and they were all hooked up to our computer with dumb terminals and phone lines doing real-time processing and they have a job that was too beneath the dignity of their more experienced professionals and so since I was out of college I got on the help desk with the red telephone for a year and then I went out for the next year and met my clients personally and these are the people I've been talking on the phone with for a year and most of them when they met me face to face said well gee Mike we thought you were taller I guess I sound taller than I am but anyway I did that and then after a couple of years my management came to me and said Mike we'd like you to go into sales and I had two answers no and hell no the no was because the clients I've been supporting for two years had virtually all been misquoted on price and the salespeople told them the product would do things that wouldn't do so my esteem for the sales profession was pretty low and then on top of that the hell no came from the fact that my father was a violent alcoholic and a salesman so the last thing I ever wanted to do was be like him so i said no a week later they came back and said mike we really like you to try sales and we'll give it to you in writing and if you try for six months you can have your old job back if you hate it i said all right i'll give it a try and in my first five months on quota i sold more than anybody in the history of the company sold in a full year so within another year and a half they made me a sales manager and a sales trainer.

3:46They made me the official sales trainer for Xerox Computer Services. And so the last six years I was with them, unofficially, even though I was a marketing manager, branch manager, natural sales manager, four to five weeks a year I did the sales boot camp. And I loved teaching people how to sell. And so in 1983, I started my own business called Solution Selling. I eventually wrote this book 10 years later. And I stayed solo for five years. But people kept saying, Mike, I want to do what you do. And they were my vice president of sales clients, the people who would hire me to come in and train their B2B sales force.

4:34And after that, and they participate and I teach them how to coach their salespeople. And they said, I want to do what you do. And so after five years solo in 1988, I put together an affiliate agreement where they could use my intellectual property and send me royalty checks. And so in the mid-90s, my organization had grown to 75 people. No employees. I never had an employee. It was virtual. And because we were really successful at all preaching from the same hymnal, if you will, and teaching the material the way I wanted them to teach it, in 1995, we trained 15 ,000 IBM salespeople. and so I ended up making a lot of money and I sold the business in 1999 because I went through a divorce and it was the easiest way to never have to talk to my ex again and so I've been independent since then.

5:40In 2008, I realized that I still hadn't entirely broken the code for the bottom 80 % of sales forces. Even today in most large sales forces, 20 % of the people are bringing in 80 % of the business. Absolutely. And my mission when I started solution selling was to help lift the bottom 80%. And when in 2008, I realized that that number hadn't changed. I had a deep session with myself and I realized the problem was that 80 % of humanity, it's not just 80 % of salespeople, but 80 % of humanity don't have high EQ. They might have high IQs, but they don't have high EQ. And so because they don't have high EQ, emotional intelligence, they struggle with building trust and connecting with strangers.

6:45And so in 2008, I started a business called Story Seekers, and we teach the geeks of the world, the B2B salespeople who majored in engineering or finance or computer science, how to emotionally connect and build trust with their prospects. using the power of story. Awesome. Well, I've got a lot to dig into here. All right. This might take a couple of teams. By the way, I'm one of those geeks, I guess. I was trained in engineering, and my first job was in B2B sales. So we have a lot in common here. All right. So let's dig back. I want to go back to the original business that you sold. there had to be some lessons there.

7:40I want to talk specifically about your decision to go with affiliates rather than employees. Talk about it. Alright, well when I started my own business, you know I was very successful as a salesperson but as I rose into management and zero-ounce computer services I started getting to see more of the politics and the infighting and the backstabbing and then I hated the whole budget goat dance every year where they'd make us spend all this time doing our goals and budgets and spreadsheets and then senior management would push the number down and it was all you know a waste of effort and so when I started my own business I said I'm gonna work for myself out of my house I'm to create content, sell and teach.

8:34I don't want any HR department. I don't want any important meetings. I don't want to, you know, budget things or quarterly numbers or any of that stuff that came with corporate life. I was done with it. And so I think it sounds like the lesson to me here is that you defined what you wanted your business to be. You had your rules. And so therefore it led to the idea that if you were going to impact more people, you were going to have to do it through some other method other than employees. Right. I even had a venture capital company firm come to me and say, Mike, what you're doing is awesome. Let's build a company.

9:16As soon as they said company, I said, Nope, I don't want to do that. And five years in 1988, I met an intellectual property lawyer in San Diego. And he says, Mike, you don't have to build a company to make money off your intellectual property, we can license it to other people who are going to start their own training and consulting businesses. And as long as you keep them on the straight and narrow, they'll send you royalty checks and you don't have to have them as employees. And so that's what... Yeah, I think licensing is a very attractive model for a lot of businesses to expand, particularly around the, like you say, the intellectual property.

10:01All right. So you went through the learning that divorce is not a wealth building strategy. And now and moved on from there. So tell us about story seekers. And then we'll get into some of your learnings and some of your sales philosophies. Well, it seemed like for 20 years, my primary client when I was doing solution selling was the vp of sales who would hire me to come in and train his or her b2b sales people and typically six months after i get a new client my vp of sales client would would usually we even did it face to face over lunch or dinner and he'd say mike my top 20 loves solution selling but the bottom 80 quit using it within two weeks of the workshop And that was what I was wrestling with.

10:58And in 2008, that's when I finally realized that the true difference between the top 20 % and the bottom 80 % is the top 20 % intuitively know how to build trust and emotional connection. And they have the wisdom, they have the EQ to do so before they take out their discovery questions. and one of the bedrocks of solution selling was discovery questions written by the smartest people in the company for the salespeople because one of my issues as I told you earlier with the sales people at Xerox computer services is they were making promises the product wouldn't deliver and so if we have the smartest people in the company author the discovery questions for the salespeople, then the salespeople can shape the buyer to a vision of a solution that the product can actually deliver on.

12:00The problem though, the reason the bottom 80 % quit using it within two weeks of the workshop was since they did not have the intuitive ability to build emotional connection and trust they went for those discovery questions too soon and so even though there were great questions and it's the buyers would in essence throw their hands up and say you don't know me good enough to ask me all those questions they were too invasive and the sales people hadn't figured out and neither had I how to eliminate the discovery resistance that most people have towards salespeople and after we're done I'll send you a white paper I authored on discovery resistance I'll send it to you we'll put that in the show notes that'll be yeah they were going for the marriage at the first day without the foreplay Yeah, they were going for marriage right away.

13:11So I do think it's a big mistake that sales folks make. So a couple of questions around that. I mean, my experience has been the 20-80 kind of is, you know, and so how do you move the 80, some of the 80 into the 20, I guess is the question. How'd you like to learn from the best? How'd you like to network with the best? How'd you like to be the best? Well, the key to being the best is to hang around with the best and to learn from the best. And we're going to make that possible for you this August in Asheville at the Asheville Business Summit. I want you to stay tuned. We're bringing in speakers from outside.

13:58We've got a lot of good events planned. It's going to be amazing. We got more information coming, but if you'd like more info on how you can be involved, how you can attend, or how you can be a sponsor for this event, it's going to be over 350 entrepreneurs in one place right here in Western North Carolina in Asheville. For more info or to be a sponsor, I want you to reach out directly to Beth Limmel, that's L-E-M-M-E-L, at actioncoach.com. That's Beth Limmel at actioncoach.com. We look forward to seeing you there. It's going to be amazing. Well, and that's where we're using the power of story.

14:38Because even though the bottom 80%, they don't have that intuitive ability to connect. Well, for instance, if you and I were sitting next to each other on an airplane, and we just started to talk, and I said, Bill, what do you do? How would you answer me? I help people build businesses. Can I share a quick story with you about another guy I've been working with who also tells the world that he helps people build their businesses? Sure. Sure. Peer curiosity. So we teach the engineer, the chemical engineer going out and making a call on another chemical engineer to first stimulate pure curiosity in 10 seconds by saying, Hey, Bill, can I share with you a story about another chemical engineer I've been working with for the last year and a half?

15:33I've never had anybody in my sales career turn down a pure story. I love it. That's a great lesson. That's a great lesson for you out there listening. And the first step in any buy cycle is curiosity. Absolutely. I've always been nosy. Curiosity is the nice way to say nosy. Well, I prefer curiosity. Yeah, yeah, I do too. Most people do. So, yeah. All right. So that's that's there now. Now you've got. So now he says yes to that story. He's now granted me 60 seconds of story time. And now I would tell him a customer hero story about another chemical engineer. Little bit of setting. Main part of the story is what he was struggling with to do his job.

16:27then the aha in the story is when he discovered that our product would give him the ability to just simulate the manufacture of new drugs he decided 18 months ago to give us a shot and here we are now today this KPI is better this KPI is better and this KPI is better but enough about me Bill what's going on with you and that story would turn pure curiosity into pure envy and after 60 seconds i could pass the torch back to the buyer and now because that story led the buyer to a couple of emotional conclusions first one is wow even though this guy's 20 years younger than me it sounds like he really understands how hard my job is and it sounds like he has helped one of my peers solve a problem i haven't figured out how to solve yet and so when i pass the torch now the discovery resistance is gone now they open up and now they will allow you to ask all those intelligent discovery questions the smartest people in the world and your company wrote for you because they're not resistant anymore boy don't you wish you'd come up with that a few years ago well i was doing it intuitively as a 20 as you were a top 20 but you were a top 20-er but but it took me years to be able to articulate it and teach it to other people because the main problem with top 20 sales people they get promoted into management and they crash and burn because how do you teach somebody else to do what you did intuitively.

18:15Yeah, it's the old Ted Williams thing. He had trouble teaching people how to hit because he just did it. Exactly. He could see the ball spinning more than others. That's an awesome analogy. Quick, we've just got a few minutes left. Give us a couple of your, at least one of your sales philosophies. Well, my primary sales philosophy is that salespeople should be solution facilitators. And instead of trying to persuade somebody with logic and facts and PowerPoint, to influence them via story. And if you're a leader, you influence your followers. I've trained a lot of ex-military, you know, ex-West Point and Annapolis graduates are now out in the business world, and they can't understand why when they bark an order, everybody in the corporation doesn't just follow along like sheep, because they're not military anymore, and so we have to give them a new paradigm of leadership, which is inspiring your followers to follow you, getting them to trust you, showing vulnerability, and using stories to inspire them to volunteer to follow you rather than following you because you outrank them.

19:52Yeah, that's awesome. Look, be a facilitator rather than an order giver. Right. A buying facilitator, a solution facilitator. You know, management, I mean, is sales. I mean, you must sell your people on doing whatever it is that you would like them or they're supposed to be doing. If you're good at it. Yeah. So if you had one piece of advice for someone new in sales, what would you say? I would say don't tell them anything about your product. until you have gotten them to connect with you, trust you, and help them visualize how they might solve their problem if they have certain capabilities that they don't have today.

20:43In other words, make your product the proof of their vision, not using your product to try and educate them. Yeah, don't, I call it puking all over them. Don't, you know, vomit all the product knowledge. you know until they're ready to hear it yeah yeah i call it premature elaboration premature elaboration i'm gonna write that down yeah yeah it it feels great to the salesperson bill but it doesn't always meet the well they're always you know what happens they get trained in the product yeah for the service and next thing you know they're one of them they're sold on it they're so great to tell the world and then it just show up and throw up yeah yeah yeah get it on there so this has been great um might need to have you back to to kind of get into some deeper stuff um all right let me ask you um if someone wants more information on story seekers or getting in touch with you what's the best way find me on linkedin i'm really easy to find on linkedin and just connect with me on LinkedIn.

21:54Okay, so LinkedIn, Mike Bodworth, right? Yep. Okay, yeah, and I would agree, you're all over LinkedIn. That's awesome. Well, this has been fun. Yeah. It's been good learning more. I always love to talk to other sales people about selling and about, because we all know nothing really happens in business until something gets sold. That's true, that's true. Thanks for being around. All right, thank you, Bill. Yeah. And until next time, all the best.

22:51at giftfrombill.com. That's giftfrombill.com. Hey, and if you'd like more info about growing your business and what we can do to help you grow your business, send me an email directly. Just send it to williamgilliland at actioncoach.com. That's my personal email that I read. No one else reads it first. It's not screened. It's my real email. Just send it to me. I can't wait to talk to you. Hey, and until then, all the best.

23:49Second, to learn more about growing your business, just download my book, The Coach Approach. It's free for you at giftfrombill.com. That's giftfrombill.com. Hey, and if you'd like more info about growing your business and what we can do to help you grow your business, send me an email directly. Just send it to williamgilliland at actioncoach.com. That's my personal email that I read. No one else reads it first. It's not screened. It's my real email. Just send it to me. I can't wait to talk to you. Hey, and until then, all the best.