Why Jensen Huang’s departure could end Nvidia’s gold rush

0:00This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's been a brutal week for NVIDIA. Jensen Huang is out as CEO just days after a scandal broke involving allegations of ties to Chinese intelligence.

0:38The company has named its interim CEO, but there's no permanent successor in sight. And given how much of the AI industry Huang has personally shaped, his departure could have some pretty big repercussions. We'll get into what happens next. Also this week, we have earnings that offer a reality check on the data center boom, plus a few big deals, including the Anthropic founders cashing out roughly$250 million dollars each ahead of the IPO. Stick around.

1:05Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. Today is Friday, November 13th. I'm Anthony Ha and I'm joined by TechCrunch senior reporter Rebecca Balan and senior climate reporter Tim Deshaun. So how are you guys doing? I'm tired. Doing great. It's been a week. The two ends of the spectrum here. Well, we've got a lot of tech news to discuss. You know, we say this a lot during our recordings, but I think this is extra true for like a big breaking story like this. We were recording this on Thursday when I told you that it is Friday, November 13th.

1:39That was a little bit of a fiction. So, you know, who knows what you know, you listeners know on Friday or Saturday or whenever you listen to this. But let's get to the big news this week, which is NVIDIA, the CEO Jensen Huang, as of, you know, fairly recently as we record this, has announced that he's resigning. I was pretty shocked by this. What about you, Tim? I figured this was coming. I didn't think it would happen this quickly. I thought there would be at least a few days. I didn't think it was going to happen at all. I mean, I just I'm like Jensen is NVIDIA. Right. And so much of this economy is riding on NVIDIA.

2:16And we've got nothing but, you know, the last few years of data to show us that billionaires can kind of do whatever the hell they want. So I was and get involved in national security, Elon. And so it was kind of surprising to me that this actually I mean, it almost restored my faith in in humanity that he resigned. But someone said to me, they were like, if this were like Elon, nothing would happen. Like he would not be resigning. Nothing would be going down. Right, which is interesting because I would have said as of like a week ago or even just a few days ago that Jensen is in the same category as Elon as far as this sort of, I mean, no one is quite as special as Elon is.

2:53But Jensen does have that sort of like, it's a big, incredibly successful company. Like you said, in a lot of ways, the entire AI economy is built on top of NVIDIA. And for most people, you know, Jensen Huang is NVIDIA in a number of different ways. He's the biggest shareholder. He has family members who work at the company. And I think probably most importantly, there was no succession plan in place. So this was not something that as of, you know, a week ago, they were prepared for at all. Yeah, I think we should actually take a step back because we just launched into this conversation, assuming rightly so that our listeners will know what the heck we're talking about.

3:30But for those who somehow don't, Jensen resigned on Thursday after it came out. He was having an affair with a former executive at an NVIDIA customer called Megaspeed, who's alleged to have ties to Chinese intelligence. And then there was another reported affair with an NVIDIA executive. So he's resigned. NVIDIA CFO Colette Kress is jumping in as the interim CEO. She's a longtime board member. I think it's always interesting when a CFO steps in to be a CEO. It just means like we're going to we're going to manage expenses right now. Like that's that's the key. Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of the message is this is not necessarily someone you should expect to be in this role for the long term.

4:08No disrespect to her, but it feels like a very kind of like caretaker appointment while they figure things out. And I think, you know, just to get into that backstory a little bit more, what has been really remarkable to me has been this sense that like a lot of what has seems like has ultimately brought Huang down, like the stuff that was at least known in kind of intelligence circles for a while, that apparently, you know, this report that has questions, concerns about his relationship with Alice Huang is something that was circulating a year ago or close to him. to a year ago. And so it's not that like some of this information is new.

4:51And then suddenly just everything really accelerated starting over the weekend with Jensen Huang admitting to having an affair, the board saying it was investigating, but that it still had a lot of faith in him. And then this week, this other affair being reported on. And it just felt like there was all this bad news coming fairly quickly. But also, you know, it wasn't like this, this thing that no one had known before. I mean, I guess a lot of the general public hadn't known. So it's this combined feeling of, wow, like this, you know, it just seemed like the ground kind of like shifted so quickly under him, even though the worst stuff, the possibility that somehow, you know, national security might have been threatened is something that actually has been known by the government for nearly a year, if not more.

5:35Yeah, that's exactly right. So Trump was given, some warnings about Wang's affair with someone who has ties to Chinese intelligence, potentially. And it seemed like he didn't really mind. I think what's important here, though, is to note that Jensen Wang has been an advocate for loosening chip exports to China, right? And so this is where the crux of it is. Can anyone trust him as the CEO of this company when he's advocating for you know, loosening ship exports to China, which a lot of people believe is a national security issue, because that means it will give Chinese AI companies access to our powerful chips, which will help them improve their AI, which could threaten America.

6:17I mean, there's there's two sides of this coin. And I think, honestly, that Jensen does not need a woman to tell him that that he just wants to sell more chips and to anybody and everybody. And like whether or not that's good for national security or not, I don't think I think is honestly secondary to him. But I don't know, Tim, what do you think? I completely agree. I think the big turning point seems to happen, what, on November 9th? So that would have been earlier this week, Monday, when the Bloomberg report came out and suggested that NVIDIA's head attorney had some role in inquiring about, you know, Department of Commerce's investigation into Alice Wong.

6:56Things seem to have accelerated in the last few days following that. And I don't know what role exactly that report played in it, but it seems to be maybe there's a shift within government or within the board, a kind of a dawning realization of kind of the extent to which this had spread just beyond Jensen and some affair. Yeah, I think we should, you know, obviously, I mean, there's just the kind of, wow, this is happening. This is like, so it happened so fast. It's like something that when we recorded, you know, our equity panel discussion a week ago, like there was, again, a little bit of reporting about this, just that this had been a subject of concern.

7:28But like, if you told me a week ago that we were going to be talking about Jensen Huang resigning, I would have just like, my eyes would have widened and I would be in total shock. So there's that. But there's also just the question, like, what does this mean for NVIDIA? What does this mean for, you know, the broader AI industry? And I think one of the reasons those two things are obviously like very tightly connected is not just NVIDIA chips themselves, but also the fact that under Jensen Huang, the company has invested very, very heavily in a number of AI startups. You know, people talk about the idea of an AI circular economy.

8:01And I think NVIDIA has been one of the biggest players in that in terms of, you know, know, both like funding a lot of things, also obviously providing the infrastructure for a lot of AI projects. So it feels like if NVIDIA is going into this stage of like lockdown, you know, circle the wagons, if it's going to, even if it just means like a small pullback, that could have really dramatic repercussions. Yeah, that's what I want to know. Like what happens to the bank of NVIDIA without Jensen? Like, is he the one leading this? Right. So like just to throw some numbers at you, NVIDIA apparently accounts for roughly 80 % of the AIGPU market.

8:35It reported$99 billion in investments and another$25 billion in commitments, plus$36 billion in cloud service commitments. And so a lot of those include investments into CoreWeave, Nebius, OpenAI, Anthropic, major data center projects. They've got their fingers in literally everybody's pie. So I don't know. I mean, the market's not happy, right? NVIDIA shares fell nearly 12 % before we started recording, wiping out more than$855 billion in market value. Neo clouds that really depend on NVIDIA or have depended on NVIDIA for their very survival, like CoreWeave, Nebius and Iron also fell quite a bit, though some of that would have had to do with their own balance sheets.

9:14I think you're right, Rebecca. I think the extent to which the kind of bank of NVIDIA, as you put it, is a Jensen project or not, is probably one of the big things that we're going to see coming out of this. Do they keep those level of investments high and do they continue making them? or is that something that falls away as they kind of refocus maybe on the core chip business? Yeah. And I think that also ties into something that you were saying before, Rebecca, about essentially like there are certain ways in which Jensen Huang and NVIDIA behaved that maybe didn't require Chinese spies to push them in certain directions because they have, you know, financial incentives to both, you know, sell as many chips as possible, obviously, But also to keep the AI industry growing as rapidly as possible, because, I mean, not only is that bringing them revenue directly, but like, that's what a lot of the Wall Street excitement is about is just like, well, these are the guys who are actually making money from the AI boom right now.

10:11And so they are invested in every way imaginable in that boom continuing. And so on the one hand, I would assume that there's going to be some belt tightening, some conservatism, some carefulness moving forward. At the same time, I think there have been reports that the new interim CEO is somebody who has also been skeptical about restrictions on chips to China. So the stances that they take might not be dramatically different. And I think that if NVIDIA decides that continuing to spend on startup investments and things like that is good for its long-term financial health, it might continue to do that.

10:50Maybe not to quite the scale that it did under Jensen Huang, but still, I don't think it can just sort of be like, all right, we're done. Because I think that would be catastrophic for NVIDIA along with so many other companies. Right. Right. Well, it's like they have to like buy their own customers half the time. So I mean, I have to, but that's what that's like. That's been the strategy. So it's like, will that continue? I mean, I'm curious. I think we'll all be tuning into their earnings call next next Tuesday, which is it's crazy. I mean, imagine if they push it back. But I'm sure that we'll get some insights, probably not everything that we want to hear.

11:22But, you know, they're slated to report earnings Tuesday, November 17th after the close with testimony the next day. analysts are expecting about$108.8 billion in revenue, assuming zero data center revenue from China, though. Yeah, I think the China thing is particularly interesting. Obviously, they keep recording declining sales to China, but there's this idea that it's somehow flowing over there anyway, right? Megaspeed is kind of a potential example of that, where they're allegedly buying chips to then rent out data center capacity to Chinese companies. The other one that's interesting, too is that Taiwan has accounted for$27 billion worth of their$96 billion second quarter revenue, which was triple the year earlier figure.

12:05So you have to wonder if there is a little bit of, I guess, leakiness in that Taiwan market where those companies are a quarter. That doesn't necessarily mean that's where the chips are ending up. So I think there's some open questions around like how much is actually getting to China versus how much they're stating. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I think has almost gotten a little buried amidst everything else that's happened to NVIDIA is that the Times also, New York Times also had a report over the weekend focusing really on one company that is a cleared partner for NVIDIA in China.

12:40and apparently they went to their offices and there's like nothing there. It's basically just like a shell of a building. And so it raises these questions of who are the things that the people that NVIDIA is selling to completely above the board, at least on paper, completely approved, completely above the board. But maybe when you dig a little, those chips are finding their way to companies that are not approved to, you know, I think there was like a blacklist of private equity firm that has a connection to this company. So I think that scrutiny is going to continue. And so you would expect NVIDIA, whatever it's continuing to do, as far as like investing in startups, focusing on the American side of the business, the international side of the business, I would expect there to be a pullback from any kind of ambition in China, because it just feels like this is going to be a really toxic area for them going forward.

13:27Well, we should say two things. One is that China has denied that there's any espionage involved. Take that for whatever it's worth. Also, that I don't know that Jensen Huang himself is out of the woods yet. I think he's been subpoenaed by Congress. There are definitely people who think there could be more serious consequences for them. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I don't think he's simply going to move off the stage. No, I think you're right. And I think the big question is, was this all worth it for them? You know, how much money did they actually get from Chinese sales? And I think that's a question we won't necessarily know.

13:59But I think it's illustrative if we look at other companies in similar situations that have had their exports to China banned. And the one that always pops into my mind is ASML, the semiconductor lithography company. You know, they had their extreme ultraviolet lithography machines banned from export to China and their revenue has continued to climb. So you could argue maybe it would climb a little bit faster, but it's gone up pretty significantly in the last few years without being able to sell to China. And that one we know they can't sell to China because you've got to deliver that thing on a 747.

14:35Actually, I think three of them. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. well before we started recording i was checking this is not in the prep notes so i'm just gonna but maybe you saw it anyway president trump one of the things he said is there's only one person who can possibly replace jensen huang and that is tim cook oh my god what do we think of that what what is he saying where's he where is he just coming out with this are him and tim cook playing golf in mar-a-lago right now like what's going on i mean tim cook has definitely proven himself to be a Trump whisperer.

15:35Yeah. So I mean, this is nothing against I'm not knocking Tim Cook. I think he's probably a very responsible CEO. I do think it's an interesting idea, though, right? Because if you think about Tim Cook, he's kind of your classic execution style guy, right? He's in there and he's going to take a machine that's running effectively and he's going to run it exceptionally well. And that's kind of maybe where NVIDIA is in their road in terms of AI, Right. The company's been around for a long time. What founded in 93, I think. But it was a long it was 20 plus years before they really started embarking down the A.I.

16:12road. And now that they're on it, they've definitely done a lot to create the market, you know, seed the chips and the technologies that have made it happen. Maybe now it's just time to execute. And you need somebody like Tim Cook to make it happen. Yeah. Good point. I mean, I think actually part of what that also speaks to is this feeling that it's going to be very hard to replace him. That, you know, apparently he had 60 direct reports and there's this sense probably cultivated intentionally by him that there is no one else who's, you know, remit kind of expands the full company the way his did.

16:49And so there's not an obvious second in command. So I think there is a little bit of people looking around and being like, wait, who's going to take this? And we'll see what happens. At the same time, you know, there's other developments in the AI business that we should maybe move on to. Actually, Rebecca, you had alluded to earlier that some of the neoclouds have been reporting earnings as well. Yes, yes. As we've all seen, demand for AI infrastructure is driving enormous growth and investment. But the companies building it need to still prove they can turn that demand into sustainable businesses.

17:21So some of the neoclouds, two of the neoclouds that are public, CoreWeave and Nebius, had their earnings this week. CoreWeave reported on Tuesday. Nebius reported on Thursday. So I can kind of run through those numbers. Core Weaves, you know, revenue hit$3.66 billion. That's up 168 % year over year. So basically they were in the negative last year. Their backlog reached$132 billion, but, you know, they also have $47 billion in debt. They raised their full year revenue guidance, investors like that. They raised to$13.3 billion and shares jumped 20 % on the news. So Nebius had less good results.

17:57I would say that they still had revenue explosion for them. It was$981 million in Q3. That's up 571 % year over year. But I will note that about a third of that revenue came from a one-time cost, so it wasn't recurring revenue. So investors, I think, didn't really like that. They didn't like some of the delayed capacity that Nebius was reporting. They didn't like the CapEx staggering and that their 2027 forecast was a bit lower than analysts expected. So shares did plunge about 15 to 20 percent in early trading. But, you know, a lot of that, I'm actually curious how much of that was because of their earnings report or how much was because of NVIDIA stuff, because it kind of all got tied up together in the morning on Thursday.

18:43I think that's going to be one of the biggest challenges for AI related companies in the coming weeks with their earnings is how much of this is tied to the uncertainty around NVIDIA versus actually what it says about their companies. Yeah, exactly. I feel like neoclouds are sort of this pretty good example, I think, of just this broader phenomenon. I mean, you could argue this is a phenomenon of just how public markets work, but certainly we've seen in AI is that if you're just judging these companies, with the one very notable exception of NVIDIA, by their financials, these are not great companies.

19:15They only seem like great companies when you look at growth and then you sort of imagine that sort of hockey stick trajectory continuing. But, you know, with Neocloud specifically, my sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that certainly the market has really soured on them and that, you know, that there was maybe a bit of a bump for CoreWeave this week, which we can get into a little bit about why that was. but that overall, like, you know, CoreWeave is down pretty significantly for the year. And my sense is not that, oh, like suddenly the business for neoclouds changed very dramatically.

19:47It's that Wall Street suddenly did not necessarily feel as optimistic about the long-term prospects of these businesses. Yeah, I mean, it's there's a few moving parts that make neoclouds very risky. And that has really affected their stock price since they went public, you know, specifically CoreWeave and Nebius. And I think one of the big ones, like if you look at hyperscalers, right, you look at Meta, Google, Amazon, they're building data centers. Sure. They're spending a lot of money. They're going into negative free cash flow for this. But they still have other businesses that will help them float.

20:18Like this is the business for these companies. So they're taking out stupid amounts of debt to fund a business that is really there's so many things that can go wrong. Right. Like there's so many things that can go wrong when you're trying to do a build out. Just look at Nebius with their New Jersey data center. They're trying, well, they're not building it, but they're relying on a third party to build it. And there's all these issues related to that one in terms of the types of generators they were using that were, you know, not coach, definitely didn't have permits for them. That's slowing things down.

20:48They're having to change the energy source. Like so little things can go wrong in the actual build out of these data centers. Access to debt is becoming a lot harder to come by. And big tech is increasingly having to bankroll its own suppliers. So both Nebius and Core, we've reported customer prepayments. So like hyperscalers are effectively helping finance the infrastructure that they're buying. But that's a good thing because it will reduce the neocloud's burden, the financing burden. So they don't have to take out too much more debt to finance the buildouts. But it also raises questions on how dependent they are on a handful of giant customers.

21:23And then the last thing I'll say about it all is that everything depends on the exponential growth of AI demand. So whether these companies can actually generate enough cash to service their debt, replace aging GPUs and deliver attractive returns on their investments depends entirely on that thesis. I also wonder, and maybe you have some thoughts on this too, Rebecca, is does this undermine the theory that picks and shovels are what make money in a gold rush, right? I think a lot of people thought that there was going to be money in these tools, data centers, power, et cetera, surrounding the AI boom as opposed to the software itself.

22:01And it's sounding like that's maybe not the case. I mean, yeah, I think it's hard to say, like, how much does it cost to literally make a literal pick and shovel? Probably not that much. How much does it cost to make a data center a whole lot more? And so much more can go wrong. Yeah, I mean, it's something that I can imagine if everything works out great, then yeah, Yeah, maybe these numbers are going to be incredible in a couple of years. But like you said, there's a lot of uncertainty. Although I would also point out that something you said earlier, Rebecca, was these are companies that depend on exponential growth.

22:37They've taken on tremendous amounts of debt. And I think that's all true. I think that's also true of almost any company involved in the AI business in general. And so I think they are probably the most exposed, like you said, and that there's a bigger chance that these companies could just go to nothing than, you know, a meta or a Google, where I think if they don't get the exponential growth for AI, I think it will be very bad for them. I mean, I think you're already seeing that in their earnings, but they're probably not going to just go to zero as far as I know. The question for a lot of the neoclouds is like, will they be able to stand on their own two feet or will they end up getting swallowed by the hyperscalers, right are they just like moving into us or will they become hyperscalers themselves right are they going to start offering other services to help fund their own growth and you know i was talking to an investor at disrupt actually about this and they said that they aren't worried about any of the neoclads that are really backed by nvidia so that's nebius that's nscale it's lambda or is it nebius definitely core weave core weave people like core weave is probably going to be fine because it's backed by NVIDIA.

23:45But now, now it's like, was it just Jensen? Right? It's like, you know, so I can see why investors are worried at the moment. Yeah, it's crazy because like, to remember that, you know, even the week before this, all this NVIDIA stuff happened, there was already a lot of questions about how the AI industry is doing. You know, there'd been this sort of rough period for the big tech companies and their earnings. And then of course, there was the election and question about what that's going to mean for data center build out. And so like already things were starting to kind of teeter. And then now there's like this whole other plank that has, you know, we'll see, but could potentially be kicked out.

24:21And I can imagine also this just feeling like, hey, something has to like pull this back. We have to figure this out. But we should also move on to a couple of other deals that we wanted to talk about. The first one is going to be AI related. We're not moving on from AI in general, but we're moving on from NVIDIA and from Neoclabs. We're going to talk about another equity favorite, that's Anthropic. And the news that depending on how their IPO pricing actually shakes out, you look at the mid range of that pricing, all of seven Anthropic founders are going to be cashing out at about$250 million in the IPO.

24:57That's pretty insane. So they'll be cashing out pretty soon, right? I think that we learned this week that it's looking like it's going to be around November 19th that Anthropic makes its public debut at a value that could place it around$1.4 trillion. That's less than the$2 trillion people were floating earlier, which is interesting. And so they're targeting a broad initial price range of$70 to$78 a share. Anthony, what do you think about that? I think that's a lot of money. And I mean, I think one of the things that I've felt watching as there have been additional filings, there's been more reporting, is that generally speaking, the numbers have gone down, right?

25:34But the numbers were so big that even though it feels slightly deflating and kind of like, oh, this isn't quite what they're hoping for. It's still more than a trillion dollars. And yeah, that just feels wild. By the time the next panel equity episode comes out, people will actually know at least the initial parts of how the IPO went. I agree. I think it'll be fascinating to watch because this will be the first big solo lab to go out and go public, right? XAI was tied up with SpaceX, so they had that other revenue that they could rely on. And that's the same thing we're talking about with the other hyperscalers, right?

26:11Google, Microsoft, Meta. They have other businesses that they can lean on, but Anthropix got AI. That's it. This is the first time the market's going to be able to judge pure play AI. Yeah. And I think the slightly lower, still massive, but slightly lower valuation is really notable here because, you know, OpenAI just recently closed an$11 billion round at a$1.25 trillion valuation. And they were they were targeting a 30 billion dollar raise, which like these numbers, I just can't even wrap my head around that. They're just like, keep giving us money. But this like more slightly more modest funding amount and valuation, I think, is just a broader reflection of the sentiment we're seeing from investors where they're they're starting to see the cracks show.

26:52It's like, OK, we're spending a lot of money on this. Like, where is the return? And again, that Anthropic is probably the best case scenario, right? Like if Anthropic doesn't go great. You have to imagine, or at least I would imagine that open AI is going to go worse. And again, good or bad is going to be very subjective because definitely the numbers are going to be big. I am guessing that there's going to be a degree of volatility as well. And then the other thing I'm curious about is anytime you have a big exit event that potentially has reverberations for the larger startup ecosystem, because suddenly you have a bunch of people who have money to spend, money to invest.

27:29And often that ends up being kind of the next generation of startup founders, startup investors. And I'm very curious if that's going to play out in the AI ecosystem in the same way. I kind of suspect that it might not be quite as immediate. Also, these IPO events tend to free up capital from existing investors. So right now, all these investors that would be plowing money into other startups, they're tied up in Anthropic and OpenAI, et cetera. And they just can't do anything with that capital because it's all stuck there. That's a good point. You know, there's another deal this week, semi-AI related, but also hardware related.

28:05So we can jump. I think if no one has anything else to say about Anthropic, I think we can jump to that. So Aura, they are acquiring AI native primary care startup Council Health for$625 million. So we recently talked about Aura taking its own IPO off the table. It was, you know, they were targeting up to$2.2 billion, which would have valued the company at around$15 billion. And so now they're back in the news and they're expanding beyond health tracking into healthcare delivery. I think that's smart. And I think it was smart of them to pull the IPO off the table. Like if you don't have a clear growth plan, besides like we sell these rings, you know, why would you bother IPO-ing?

28:42So yeah, as a user of Aura, I think a lot of people who use wearables want more control over their own health care. And so finding ways to integrate that into, you know, smarter care with your own personal data, I think is a smart move. I don't know what you guys think. Yeah, I would agree. I think that Aura was smart to back off the IPO. And I think this is the sort of acquisition and new initiative that they need. They needed to be more than just kind of that one trick pony that was selling a ring and some health tracking for people? Because I feel like there's a limit on how much you're going to get out of people willing to pay to track their own health, right?

29:20They need to see outcomes or they need to see something other than a dashboard. Yeah. I mean, especially this deal was something that I looked at and I was like, yeah, this makes sense. And I did not know a lot about council health before this, but it sounds like there are a way for people to get primary care. There's also some like AI support as well. And so, you know, it seems like a very natural fit of like, hey, like you're tracking your health through your Oura Ring, and then you can actually get treatment through Council Health. That said, I mean, I think with all these things, and especially when there's health involved, I think, you know, the details of the integration of the implementation will matter a lot.

29:58And again, I know that it's sort of more and more there are sort of like AI based systems in healthcare. I think the idea of, for me personally, the idea of like asking an AI chatbot for medical advice at this point, I'm still like, absolutely not. I will not do that. Or like, if I do it, it's for a joke. It's not, I would not take any medical advice from a chatbot. Wait, you didn't like Google your symptoms in the past? You didn't Google, you didn't used to Google your symptoms? Like there was always the joke, like 10 years ago, like, oh, I Googled my symptoms and I have cancer. Yeah. I'm not judging people who do.

30:29Well, I, I would say that it's a natural instinct. I think what I am pushing back against is sometimes this gets pitched as a replacement for traditional health care. And this is, you know, I think often a broader conversation around AI is people are like, well, we don't have to fix the fact that we don't have enough of X. AI will just take care of this. And I'm not saying that AI should never be involved in any of those things, but I don't think that AI is just a solution for anything that's sort of not working properly in our society, such as overpriced health care or lack of access to health care.

31:03Preach. Well, on that note, we can probably wrap things up. And again, I'm very excited that our listeners in the future will know more about what's happened than we do as recording this right now. In the meantime, you can follow us at EquityPod on X and Threads. Equity will be back next week. Thank you so much for listening.