Report: 1.5 Million Passengers Stranded Amid Ground Stop

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1:02This is CNN Breaking News. Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. Out front tonight, the breaking news grounded. The FAA tonight putting a stop to all departures due to, quote, extraordinary circumstances and for reasons of safety. That is the full quote. Extremely concerning. We're told a crisis call involving FAA officials is taking place as I speak. That is also extremely rare. And this is just the second time since 9-11 that there has been a complete ground stop for U.S. flights. Now, the way that this adds up just the reality for Americans across the country and people around the world coming to and from the U.S.

1:40is that there are 10 ,000 flight delays already, over 3 ,500 cancellations. And administration officials are stressing that this is not an attack. But sources tell CNN that the FAA, quote, doesn't yet know what is going on. And you can see more and more flights grounded. We understand there are about 700 flights still in the air, which is obviously a big reduction in what we had seen, usually thousands at the same time. So that could be extremely significant in terms of where we are in this crisis. But as the airports are filling up with people who can't leave, then you get flights coming in that don't have anywhere to land.

2:18So they are getting diverted to other less crowded airports. And you can see how this is flowing through the system. To give you an idea of what the flights normally look like on a Friday night, normally there would be more than 5 ,000 flights in the air, more than 5 ,000. So right now, as we are in the midst of this ground stop, planes, of course, thousands of them were in the air. We're now down, we understand, to just under 700 flights in the air. Let me show you images out of Boston where you can see jets lined up one after the other. And they're waiting. And they're going to be waiting for a while because they don't yet know what's going on.

2:53And that means they can't restart the system yet. Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen telling reporters, quote, this is going to take some time. Well, we have reporters in airports across this country, Los Angeles, Newark, Chicago, Miami. I want to begin with Pete Muntean, though, who's out front live in San Francisco. Of course, Pete, also a pilot yourself. So what is the very latest that you're learning here? I just got this from an airline source, quote, stay tuned for the big airlines to shut down this evening. It underscores the fact that the national airspace system is right now in a full on crisis meltdown mode.

3:31And the Federal Aviation Administration is telling airlines that all of these problems with telecom and radio frequencies at air route traffic control centers, the 22 facilities that control high altitude flights at their cruising altitudes in route between point A and point B, started with network routers earlier today. and we're hearing from an airline source that the FAA is telling airlines that this may have started at Chicago Midway International Airport. Still more to be confirmed there by the Federal Aviation Administration. This is having a major impact. Here are the latest numbers from FlightAware.

4:1010 ,000 flight delays in the United States. The number of cancellations has now topped 3 ,652. Chicago O 'Hare, Atlanta, Hartsfield, Jackson, DFW, LaGuardia, Boston, top the list of cancellations right now. This is going to have a huge impact. If you are at an airport, be grateful that you are not in the air right now. Take a deep breath. You'll get there eventually. Thankfully, it seems that the end may be near, but it's not like the Federal Aviation Administration can turn this faucet on all at once. We're hearing that some planes may be leaving where they were originating right now, but it's going to be a drip, drip, drip, a trickle until things can really get going again.

4:57Still not totally clear, at least according to the Federal Aviation Administration, how this all started and why this all started. The FAA is saying that is still under investigation. Around 4 p.m. Eastern time, we heard from Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen, who said that pretty much every air traffic control center in the U.S. was affected, but two. He would not say what two were not affected. He would also not go with the questions when it came to a cyber attack or the questions about whether or not this was related to the Federal Aviation Administration's recent nationwide rollout of the smart artificial intelligence system to help with more efficient flight routes.

5:41So, so many things still yet to be answered here as tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of Americans are stuck in airports right now and getting notifications from their airlines that their flights will not depart on time. And if you are flying tonight, you can bet you're probably not going to go anywhere. This is going to have a lasting impact. The last big shutdown of airspace, January 11th, 2023, it was a 12 hour long impact and that had a cascading effect on flights throughout the next day. This will not be easy, Erin. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. Right. And you talk about all these these planes.

6:22One one quick question for you, Pete, though. You said two things. You said be prepared for the airlines to shut down. I presume that's just because all their planes are every single thing is out of whack and out of place, literally. But then you also said the end may be coming soon. Can you explain how those those two things, you know, how you see both of those things at the same time? Sometimes when airlines face a major issue like this, the best thing for them to do is stop to not try to jam the airplanes through a small pipe of airspace to try and get things moving again. you essentially unplug it and plug it back in.

7:01So if the airlines are now thinking of stopping their operations for tonight, that may be the best thing because so many airplanes, so many pilots, so many flight crews, so many flight attendants are now out of place. There's simply no way with the hours remaining in the day for the airlines to catch up. Here's the other thing that I'm hearing from airlines right now. Some airports are essentially nearing ground saturation, meaning that the tarmacs, the taxiways, they are full of airplanes. There's no more place to put them. So that has ground things essentially to a standstill. And there's no real way to get things moving again.

7:37The best thing they can do right now is press pause. Try again tomorrow. All right, Pete, thank you very much. I appreciate it. We're going to go back to Pete as he gets more information. I want to go to I mean, these live pictures that you're looking at are here at San Francisco International Airport. And as you see, every gate is taken and you saw all the planes lined up, right? That's the ground saturation visually to which Pete was referring. I want to go stay in California here for a second, but go down to Los Angeles where Nick Watt is at the airport. And Nick, what is happening there? Well, for a start, Erin, we should be piping Pete Muntean in because what is not happening is clear information getting to people.

8:17People are coming up to me and asking me what's going on because I got a notepad. Now, Southwest is now saying that they are booking people only for tomorrow, but I just walked past Delta and they were telling a guy, yeah, yeah, yeah, check in. This ground stop could lift any time. So confusion. And to what Pete was just talking about, the congestion on the tarmac. I had a friend who was flying from Seattle. Luckily for him, he was about an hour out of LA before this happened. He landed, but then they were stuck on the tarmac for a long time while they waited for a gate to clear. Of course, the planes aren't taken off.

8:50There's nowhere for these other planes to come in. Other people looking for other ways out. A couple from Idaho were planning a maybe six or seven hundred mile drive, but they could not find a rental car, Aaron, within 50 miles of LAX. This group here, group of school kids from Denver hoping to get home. and uh yeah spirits are high for now for now but listen let's see how much longer this drags on i was in the international terminal there were some planes taking off there but again a lot of confusion people lining up for a flight to helsinki just hoping hoping for the best erin yeah all right nick thank you very much i want to go to shimon prokopez uh he's here in new york he's at Newark Airport in New Jersey.

9:36Shimon, what are you hearing there? So there have been announcements here. Actually, United Airlines, just before I came on air here, made an announcement saying that they were canceling all flights on United. Delta passengers are being told that they're not going to be able to get on any flights. And there are American Airlines as well here, passengers who are being told that they're not going to be able to get on any flights. Despite that, Aaron, I have to tell you, I have been seeing people walking through the TSA checkpoints. Some cases they were rushing. So I think there's some confusion because the boards are still indicating that some flights are delayed and will board at one point.

10:11I'm here outside the ticker counter for Air Canada. People trying to make their way back to Canada. I actually was talking to Jose. Jose, come here for a second. So, Jose, you actually booked your ticket just a couple hours? An hour before all this happened? An hour after? Five in the afternoon I booked it. And where are you trying to go? Toronto. Toronto. You were saying, what happened when you booked your ticket? You had no idea this was happening. No, this already happened and they sold it to me anyways. And when I come over here, I went all the way to the door and that's when they're trying to rebook me for Sunday now, going to Ottawa and then going back to Ottawa to some other place and then going to Toronto.

10:54So I ain't taking that. I'd rather rent a car or go by bus. And you're trying to get to where? Toronto. Toronto. Yeah, I was supposed to meet somebody tonight to go to work. And now I can't. What's this been like for you? I mean, everyone seems to be in a good mood. People don't seem to be too upset. Well, no. The thing is that you meet people like this and everybody's laughing about it. Like these girls, they're going back to South Korea, but they're having fun. So everybody's having fun. I mean, what can you do? You get angry, you lose. And you know, Aaron, that's kind of been the sentiment here.

11:27People I've been talking to, they don't want to get angry. You know, this is not the fault of any of the employees certainly here. There has been some good information that has been provided and they've been telling people the key thing here is so many people have luggage, especially on some of these flights. I met a woman who was relocating. She's trying to get to Las Vegas. She had boxes and her kid with her and she's trying to figure out what to do now. And the key now for a lot of passengers, if they do have luggage, is not to check in the luggage because then it's going to be really a pain to get it out.

11:58They'll have to go downstairs. But there are airport staff here. They're being very friendly. They're being very kind. And everyone so far is just dealing with it and accepting this for what it is. But there are so many questions, many people here wanting to know how this happened and why. All right. Thank you very much, Shimon. We're going to be going back to everyone. Everyone's here with me. Let me just start with you, Rich Request, though. You know, and obviously when you hear the respect that people are treating each other with at the airports and the calm, And that's all very important and very good.

12:27But this all started with a statement from the FAA stopping all departures in the United States with no warning due to, quote, extraordinary circumstances and for reasons of safety. Because you do not want to put more planes in the air, get them to altitude when you can't communicate in the most efficient, safe way with them. And so once you've lost the infrastructure of communication with those planes at high altitude, the only thing you can do is to do this. But by the way, we saw a flight take off while Pete Winteen was talking, Premier. That's going to South Korea. Right. Of course, think about it.

13:05It takes off. It immediately turns left. Goes over the ocean and then it leaves. Not even bothering with this broken system across the United States. We've seen flights going to Dublin. If you're going that way or that way, you'll get in the air at some point, provided your plane arrived. You've got to make it. And they said they're dealing with those on a case-by-case basis. The airport's going to be full. The planes are going to be, I mean, this is going to last days. But Mary Scavo, I mean, that's the thing. When you add together what we were told, extraordinary circumstances and for reasons of safety.

13:37And then they said with those international flights to which Richard just referred, they were going to deal with them on a case by case basis. The verbiage coming out of authorities was very far from calming and clear. That's right, because as Pete said earlier, as well, as well as Richard, because they still don't know the cause. And when you're directing, you know, literally 15 ,000 planes in the air at that time, and they don't know the cause of the outage, you know, it could be sabotage. It could be making the new systems that they're installing this week communicate with the old. And now when Pete mentioned that it was possibly coming out of Chicago, I am sure they're remembering back to 2014 when a disgruntled FAA contractor actually set a fire in the Aurora, Illinois, Air Route Traffic Control Center and took out telecommunications by burning the telecommunications wires in the floor below that center.

14:44So the FAA right now is scrambling, trying to figure out what caused this. You know, was it a domestic thing or international or computers? And so that's why they have to act for maximum safety. They have to. Yeah. And of course, I mean, although they're saying they don't know what happened, except for they're saying they knew it wasn't an attack. So again, that is unclear. David Soucy, when we talk about the planes in the air, obviously there were thousands when the ground stop was first announced. We're now down, I believe, according to FlightAware, to fewer than 700 that are still currently in the air, right?

15:18Because they're going to land them all. You get everybody on the ground if you can. And then they make the next steps here. But I know you've spoken to two pilots who are in the air right now. What are they telling you? Well, they're telling me that how they're communicating right now is through the CPDLC, which is a communications method. It's like texting back and forth between the air traffic controller and the pilot. So they can give directions. They can tell them turn left, go to this heading, stay at this particular altitude. So they're still communicating with each other. But as Richard said, it's not the most efficient or effective way to do it.

15:54And you're saying literally on text? It is a safety barrier. Are you, David, using text shorthand for some sort of specific text function they have or text like everybody watching or I have on my phone? No, no, it's just that it's typed in in text. It's not a text like you get on your phone, but it's similar to that because it is written information. There's no communication by mouth. There's no verbal communication. So it's just basically they're typing in instructions that goes to the airplane and then it comes back. But the interesting clue here is the fact that that frequency is the same frequency they use for voice.

16:30So the FAA should be narrowing this down as to what's causing this and using that as a cue because they know that they're getting those digital messages. They're just not getting the voice. David Kennedy, you're a cybersecurity expert. So when I went through, you know, the unsettling way in which this began, right, extraordinary circumstances for reason of safety and that it was case-by-case basis for international flights, what are you hearing now? Because they're saying they don't know what caused it, but they know that it's not an attack. They're saying both of those things at the same time.

17:02What are you hearing? Yeah, there's three critical systems to understand for the FAA. And notice that the FAA is literally antiquated technology. We're talking 1980s technology that has been very difficult to upgrade. STARS, ETAM, and FTI. So I want to home in on FTI. That's the FAA telecommunications infrastructure run by L3Harris. That's what actually handles most of the communications between, you know, air traffic controllers and the pilots, both data, voice, telecommunications, all of that is within this. Based on our previous guest talking about only being able to communicate through basically text messages, for lack of a better term, that indicates it's probably around the FBA telecommunications infrastructure that is the major issue here.

17:45And that has been knocked out at this point in time to where they only have the ability to do text messaging, which is really difficult because you don't have voice communications, the ability to navigate pilots to a specific location. and we don't know, like, understanding root cause of this takes a while. You have to go through copious amounts of logs, data, servers, understanding what actually happened. Was it a bad network configuration or change? Microsoft recently had a major 24-hour outage recently, you know, from a bad misconfiguration, or was it cyber attacks? And all of those are very possible.

18:18The United States Government Accountability Office just in 2026 showed that our FAA infrastructure is extremely vulnerable to cyber attack. It's extremely antiquated, meaning 105 of our 138 systems are unsustainable, meaning they have no redundancy or backups in our infrastructure, meaning like they can go out anytime right now, which is why there's a major transformation happening in our FAA right now, but it's not gonna be done till at least 2028. So let me just update Richard, and this has probably changed in the last minute since I got the update, but Flightradar24, which tracks flights, you're looking at, okay.

18:50Well, I don't know if we have it or not to put up, But anyway, they're saying we're now down to 429 actual flights in the air. So when those flights land, okay, so we're looking at it now. And you can see, by the way, the trail going over the Pacific. Once you get out, you're out. Yeah, same with the Atlantic. And everyone where you do see clusters, those are airports where planes are on the ground. But 429 in the air, this would normally be a sea of planes. Oh, absolutely, yes. So my understanding is once they're all on the ground, that can dramatically affect where we are. Yes, because once they're on the ground, the priority changes.

19:27Well, then you can check more of the systems because you don't have actual lives at risk in the air, right? You can really get to grips with what is happening. You're not dealing with live aircraft. And if there are a few still up there, it's much easier to handle them manually. So, yes, once they're all on the ground, you can start the major reset. But I think that from the airlines' point of view, they have very sophisticated recovery systems. But even this is going to tax them. I think you're looking at a complete reset of airlines, where planes are, what flights. And the unfortunate, and this is the sad part, the unfortunate thing is for passengers who have now missed their flight tonight, they go to the back of the queue, the back of the line for those future flights tomorrow, Sunday and Monday, because those flights have already got passengers booked on them.

20:19Yes, right, right. You have to get. Yes. All right. Everyone stay with me. I want to go to Isabel Rosales. She's out front at Chicago Airport, not far from where we're hearing the outage may have originated, which we're hearing may have been Chicago Midway. The FAA told airlines moments ago that that's the case. That's what they thought, Isabel. So can you describe the scene for us of what you're seeing? Right. We were actually, myself and my husband, supposed to be on a flight to Japan as of like two and a half hours ago. But like so many millions of Americans, we're in limbo right now. There is not a lot of information that's being put out by any of the airlines, the airport or the intercom.

21:00So you have essentially a class of two people. The people here, the travelers who are getting their information from the boards like this. And obviously, we're seeing a lot of red meeting cancel. And then you're seeing some of the yellow here. So that's giving them a sense of hope, right? And you can see people over here checking the boards, waiting on those intercoms to come in, which has basically been, we don't have an update. We're waiting on the FAA. And then you have the people who are logged on to CNN. They're getting the news directly from news outlets. And they get a sense of just the gravity of the situation.

21:32What a mess this is. What a meltdown. And we're seeing travelers now starting to figure out, okay, I may not be getting on my flight. What's the next step? Do I get a hotel? Do I get a rental car? And I'm already hearing people having issues with both of those avenues. Let me actually introduce you right here to Valerie and Charlie. I just met them as I was doing these live shots from the airport. You guys are also in this pickle like so many Americans. You were supposed to go to Vegas, right? Right, right. We just had a long weekend in Vegas. Just to get away. Our kids are back home in Cincinnati.

22:09So we're still, fingers crossed that we'll be able to get out tonight. And if you don't, are you coming up with a plan B? Pretty hot commodity right now. Actually, you've been looking? Looking at rental cars and hotel rooms, they're filling up fast. Okay. And back home is Cincinnati, six hours away. What are you waiting for to make that, pull that trigger and decide to call it quits? Our first flight was canceled. Okay. So we booked on a second flight out, a later flight out of O 'Hare to Las Vegas. So we're waiting until about 7.30 to see if we are able to board on that flight. Thank you guys so much.

22:50Thank you. And Erin, this is pretty much what you're seeing. People just sticking around. They're calm, just waiting to hear what comes next and whether they need to leave the airport. All right, Isabel, thank you very much. And I want to go to Carolina Peguero now. She is at Miami, the Miami International Airport. And Carolina, what are you seeing there? Well, I can tell you there's chaos, calmness among the chaos, but just take a look at the long lines, people trying to get information at the service decks here at the American Airlines counters. Of course, a lot of people still not getting answers, not knowing exactly what's going to happen for their travel tonight.

23:33A lot of people using Miami Airport as a connecting airport to go international. So a lot of those flights that have been also case-by-case handled, monitored to arrive or depart from Miami Airport. Now, there's also a lot of people that are on their phones trying to find out what they can do, options. And from what I'm hearing, I was speaking to George earlier. He was trying to get back home to Albuquerque. Now, the app has been shutting down and crashing for you. Yeah, I was trying to rebook my flight, and it just keeps crashing. And so, I mean, standing in line is what it is, I guess. Yeah.

24:12So tell me, how did you find out about this? And what options have you been able to kind of figure out? Or what are you going to do? You know, I was on my way over here in the Uber. And a buddy of mine called. He said, I don't think you're going anywhere. And looked at the news. And all flights grounded. Nothing happening. And how does that make you feel? I just want to get home to my kid. It hits different when you want to get home to your kid. So that's it. Definitely. And I think that's what a lot of people are feeling, that they want to get home. They want to get to their families. They want to try to just get back to their regular schedule.

24:46And I want to show you just here quickly, also starting to show some of the TV screens where we can see cancellations from Dallas or going to Dallas to Colombia, to Ecuador. Just the situation here, Aaron, in Miami International Airport, continues to grow a little bit of anxiety and uncertainty for a lot of travelers. All right. Thank you very much. And I want to go now to the Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's stuck at the Denver airport tonight, now at a hotel by that airport. And Congressman, I know you'll probably consider yourself lucky to be able to get that hotel room as we're hearing some places near L.A.

25:23our Nick Watt was saying you'd have to go six hours away to even be able to get a rental car. So can I just ask you, Congressman, what do you understand has happened here? Well, we're still trying to get all the facts. I mean, when I came to the hotel, there were 30 people in line to check in. So it has really ground the entire country to a halt. And there's a lot of nervousness among people I'm talking to. They want to be sure that before they fly out, everything is safe. Now, we know that the air traffic control systems have needed modernization. And we know that that technology has not been upgraded for years, that there have been reports about almost 30 to 40 percent really needing modernization.

26:15So it could be something there. But we're waiting to be briefed in Congress about what exactly has happened. You know, we've heard nothing from the president as of yet. We did hear from the Department of Homeland Security secretary. I don't believe we've heard from Transportation secretary, which, of course, transportation is the department under which the FAA falls. Are you confident with how this is being handled? I think the transportation secretary put something out on X saying that they're going to get to us in the next few hours. But I don't understand why they're not just in front of the cameras holding a press conference trying to explain to the American people what's going on.

26:58I mean, I've had constituents text me. I've had family members text me saying, what's going on? When are we going to be able to fly? We were told 10 p.m. Then we were told our flights were canceled. I think people just want communication. They want to understand what is going on. What is the likelihood of when the flights will be resumed? Are we going to be sure that everything is going to be safe so that people can feel comfortable getting on the plane? So I think we just need communication for them. I mean, they've said that it's not an attack. Mark Wayne Mullen said that for Homeland Security.

27:31But then they've said they don't know what it is. So, I mean, do you feel confident in that? Well, look, I want to be very careful not to speculate. The AI company has said that it's not the AI system. As you know, they just implemented this new AI system. They've said it's not a cyber attack, but they're not sure. And I understand that they don't want to get out there and put something out there until they have the facts. But I just would suggest that if they were there every hour briefing the American public, it would help and giving us a realistic sense of a timeline. Yeah, I think there's no question about that, at least just being transparent with everything you have or don't have, you know, doesn't doesn't leave the spaces in which fear and concern and conspiracy can thrive.

28:20Congressman Conn, I appreciate your time and thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. And our breaking news coverage continues here. The president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association joins us next with the details on what air traffic controllers are being told at this very moment. And we're also following the breaking news out of New Orleans tonight. Terrifying video showing the moment a tanker lost control, slamming into a full riverboat.

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29:40Plus, with Wayfair, enjoy fast and easy shipping with delivery and time for the holidays. Save up to 70 % off early Black Friday deals. Shop now at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. And we are following the breaking news here, a nationwide ground stop in effect for the United States. Every flight at every airport in the United States. Airline sources are telling us now that there was a problem with network routers and that that problem specifically started at Midway International Airport outside Chicago and spread nationwide, got to a point where they needed to shut the system down.

30:19Already, more than 4 ,200 flights have been canceled. A lot more are expected. And if you look at this map, all of the orange areas are reporting major disruption. So you can see every major airport in this country. I want to go back to Pete Muntean. And Pete, what is the latest you're learning? I know you had gotten that information about this starting at Midway. What are you hearing now? Well, now we have a little bit more of an insight into the depth of how much impact this is having on passengers. This is the latest, according to airline analytics firm Serium, which says as this ground stop nationwide took hold around 4 p.m.

30:54Eastern Standard Time today. There were still about 11 ,000 flights scheduled to operate by U.S. airlines, putting about one and a half million passengers stranded. It is a huge impact. This will likely go down as the worst day for flight cancellations of the modern era, at the very least since 9-11 when there was a nationwide ground stop, and then January 11, 2023, when there was a nationwide ground stop due to the NOTAM system outage. Syriam says about 800 flights diverted to other airports. The latest we are hearing now from airlines is that many airports are nearing ground saturation. One airline source tells me that Austin may be emerging as the first airport to reach ground saturation.

31:43Other airports having that problem as well, meaning they're running out of gates, they're running out of tarmac space, they're running out of taxiway space to put all of these airplanes that have essentially been parked on the ground for some five hours now. This continues to go on and on. And I have to point out that when you go to the FAA publicly facing website to look at how the air traffic system is operating in the United States, it's typically how we find out about ground stops and get more information. It's often printed in code a little bit, actually made to be on teletype, 1940s technology.

32:22that website has crashed because so many people are going to it right now. There's so little information coming out of the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines are telling us they may have to cancel all flights for the rest of the night in hopes of reorienting, restarting their operations tomorrow to make sure that they can get off on the right foot. Seems like today may be a wash. If you're stuck in an airport right now, may be advisable to find a hotel, find a rental car, find a train to take. This is not going to end immediately. All right, Pete, thank you very much. So, you know, in terms of where we are right now, let's go to Ian Pechenik with FlightRadar24.

33:02And I mentioned that website a couple of moments ago, Ian, the flight tracking website that you run that we've been pretty much showing all hour here as we're covering this. So we've been tracking how many planes are in the air. I think when we first came to the show, it was fewer than 700. Then we were down in the 400s. What's the latest number? Right now, there are 377 aircraft in the air bound for U.S. airports. And a majority of those are starting to move towards cities that are still operating at the moment. So think Alaska and Hawaii in those areas. Wow. So, I mean, when you say still operating, you've got to go all the way to Alaska or Hawaii.

33:39You know, that adds a fuel component also, I guess, gets you in a sense out of some of this airspace issue. So you heard Pete Muntean reporting that the understanding is that he's hearing that this started at Chicago midway and then cascaded. What's your understanding of what happened, Ian? Well, it's very, very early days in understanding exactly what happened. But from what we know so far, the cascading failure affected the ability of air traffic control to operate the airspace in a manner that they felt was safe enough. And so they began to shut down. And then so that, again, affects all of these aircraft that need somewhere to go.

34:23And then we'll run into, as Pete was mentioning, places to put those aircraft. Right. Places to put them. I mean, you've got every single gate full at airports and planes couldn't leave and extra planes are coming in because they had nowhere to go. I mean, what we don't we don't know if this is going to be fixed. Right. Pete's saying, well, it might be closed through the night. Then they try to restart the system essentially once all those planes you're monitoring are out of the air. But we don't know where they are in any such process. So how long could this go on? Well, the longer the problem lasts, the longer it's going to take to resolve the situation in full.

35:02As aircraft are out of position, as crews are out of position, it's going to take longer and longer for airlines to reset their systems once the FAA can reset its systems. Wow. All right. Well, I appreciate your time, Ian, and thank you. And we'll keep monitoring that screen that you've been sharing with us of the number of planes in the air because it's so crucial, right? Once there are no more planes in the air, then system resets, if that's where this is going, become part of the conversation. So we're in that moment right now. And I appreciate your time, Ian. Thank you. Nick Daniels joins me now.

35:35He's the president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. And, Nick, so right now you have, you know, Ian's talking about some of the planes that are in the air being routed to places like Alaska or Hawaii, which have fewer issues right now. but they're obviously far away from the mainland. What's going on with air traffic controllers across this country on the U.S. mainland? Good evening, Aaron. I appreciate you having me on. They keep talking about extraordinary circumstances. I'll tell you about extraordinary work. There's no playbook for this, where air traffic controllers are trying to find out what frequency is operating properly, what radars they're worried about, it working, it not working.

36:13Anytime that an air traffic controller has to worry about the tools that they have, and their equipment being the fundamental issue of the problem, that's when we have to go and spread the aircraft out, start shutting the system down, and protect the American flying public. And how are we hearing about this essentially texting, that that's how pilots in the air are communicating with the ground. How are air traffic controllers communicating with flights right now? Well, right now we don't know which frequencies are working, which ones weren't working. They were intermittent, and until we have stability in the system, that's why you see the reduction in the overall capacity.

36:51But again, the FAA has to now work to see this very complex system, what it's dealing with. Now, there's been a lot of speculation about texting as well. We use a system called CPDLC with aircraft where we can send messages back and forth, but there's only about 25 % to 30 % of the nation's aircraft that are equipped with that already. So it's not something that can be relied on. And it's not full services where we can do all the normal work that an air traffic controller does day in and day out to ensure the American flying public move safely through the system. And you're saying only 25 to 30 percent of the planes can actually even use this, you know, the system such that it is, which sounds like it's sort of, you know, with your hands and legs.

37:28Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, as as we've seen this growing issue throughout, this just goes to show the fragility of the system, the fragility of why we keep talking about a need for over a decade for investment money and resources to put into this. This is not just a bad day. This has been what we've been talking about, situations and issues that we're going to continue to see if the proper investments aren't made into one, the system. But it's not just about the system. It's about the people, the people out there doing this extraordinary work in this extraordinary circumstance, ensuring that we're going to retain and pay those air traffic controllers as well during a period unlike any other.

38:07So could you explain one other thing? And, you know, for people who are still flying, you know, obviously when planes are taking off and going from the coast and going to Europe or Asia, right, they leave the U.S. system. Some of those are being allowed to take off. But the understanding is that right now takeoffs and landings or takeoffs specifically are not considered safe with the pressure on the system. but planes in the air are considered safe when they obviously have to come down and land in the same place that a takeoff is deemed unsafe. Can you explain that so everyone understands it? Yeah.

38:41Right now, there's an air traffic controller sitting in a facility asking and checking with their fellow controllers. Is your frequency working? Are you having any issues? And they will quite literally, this happened in Minneapolis. This happened in Fort Worth not too long ago. They go in a new cycle and then they're gone. There are air traffic controllers working real time to find a frequency nearby that is reliable, that they can put the aircraft on and ensure that they're going to get there safely. These are the problem solvers of America doing what they do best, and that's handling something that's never been seen before.

39:10So that's one. And then when they're departing and going over oceanic, that's a completely different system. So once they get out of the United States airspace, use that system. It is more of a text-based monitoring type of system that just monitors their flight and we can issue instructions. But it's not a voice command. We move so many planes in the United States because we can talk to them so rapidly and keep them tighter. But when you can't, you have to start spreading them out or keeping them on the ground to keep everybody safe. All right. Well, Nick, thank you so much. I appreciate your time and everyone's back with me.

39:43Richard Quest, you've been learning some more information here in the past few minutes. Well, the question is how they're going to restart it. Once you've got all these planes on the ground, what are they going to be able to do to efficiently get it going again? Until the people I've been texting with are saying that they're not that much closer to understanding what has gone, the bit that's gone wrong, just as the air traffic controller was saying. And the international stuff, it can go in either direction. But for example, Isabel's flight to Tokyo, I just looked it up. She's on ANA 111 from Chicago to Canada.

40:26The problem is it takes off... It has to fly over half the country. Exactly. And that's the problem. If she'd been going from Los Angeles to San Francisco, she'd be on her way by now. But then she wouldn't have been able to... But David Soucy, as a pilot, can you explain, and maybe we'll hear more soon from the FAA, Department of Transportation, on exactly what happened here. But how can the flying public have confidence in restarting the system before anybody knows why it broke down in the first place? Well, that's a good question. But I do think that it will not be put back in until they start a work up of the system.

41:02In other words, they're going to have to fly aircraft, test those frequencies at various places throughout the country. That's why it's going to be so long to get things back up and running. They're not just going to say, oh, gee, it works now. Everybody get back into their previous positions. That's not going to happen that way. It's going to have to be tested. It's going to have to be proven. And that is not an easy thing to do. I had to shut down an airport just in Wyoming one time for an accident investigation. And just getting that simple one airport in Wyoming back up and running again took two days to do.

41:31So it takes quite a while to get this thing back and test it. And Mary Scavo, you know, what David's talking about, you have to fly up a plane. I would imagine that would be a plane that you can test all the frequencies on that is not full of passengers. I mean, this is a process. That's right. David and Nick, too, before him, really explained how big this issue is. Right now, radio communications, radar links, and routers are out. Those aren't always linked together. And so until the FAA can get all of those reliably running and have backups, I mean, this is just not a system that's going to be put back together soon, particularly what does aviation run on?

42:13Radio, radar and routers. And so it's a big problem. And they're, you know, they're fortunate they got everyone on the ground. And Nick's explanation of what a massive job that was was very helpful. Yeah, I mean, and David Kennedy, when Mary's going through the radar, but also the routers, right? The routers, when we get to what actually happened here, that potentially is at the heart of this. Yeah, if you look at our telecommunications infrastructure that runs all of the communications out to the pilots, into the planes, into our traffic control systems, These systems are critical to our infrastructure, and they're very loosely strung together.

42:59And if you look at what we're seeing from pilots saying they're only able to communicate through text messages, this directly links to the FTI system run by L3Harris. And that's where my leading hypothesis is, based on the data that we have right now, that these systems have gone offline for some reason. We don't know the reason why they went offline. But that infrastructure is going to take some time to understand, like, hey, was this a bad update or was this a cyber attack? Was this something that caused a massive outage? And until you can validate the actual integrity of those systems, the routers that really run all of the data that goes through, you know, the underpinnings of how we facilitate communication to all of these pilots, it's going to take some time.

43:38And we're talking, you know, I doubt flights are going to run tomorrow. I mean, you're looking probably Monday at best, and it's going to be probably at least a week before the congestion dies down. That's a case scenario from what we're seeing right now. Which is just truly incredible. All right, everyone stay with me because you'll be back with me in just a moment. I have a passenger now, though, who is in the midst of this out front, Rochelle Hruska McPherson. She just landed at Newark and made the ground stop. And she says her pilot told passengers that the crew had been texting ground control about where to land.

44:06Some of this texting to air traffic control that we have been hearing about. So, Rochelle, I know they told you yours was the last plane to land at Newark. Obviously, the ground stop was in effect, right? You were one of those planes stuck in the air, which which which must have been so terrifying. And I know you're still stuck in the tarmac. This has now been well over an hour. What are they telling you now? You've been here. Yeah. Two hours. Hi, Erin. I'm just by the way, lucky to be on the ground. About 10 minutes in on our flight, we got, you know, all these alerts about what was happening.

44:41I'm a very nervous fire to begin with. And it's Friday the 13th to top it off. So it was a very, it was, it was a very kind of relaxed flight because everyone, no one knew what was happening. The pilot was very calm, but it, it was one of the most surreal moments of my life for sure. Great passengers around me. I shared a Xanax with a new friend. We're making new friends. But it, it, it was very scary to say the least. And I know, I mean, you know, you say that with a smile, but I know you're so grateful to be on the ground. When your pilot told you they were texting ground control from their phones, what exactly did he say to you?

45:21So, you know, and to all of our pilots and crews credit, they were just so calm, which obviously really helped a nervous fire like me. They said, we don't know anything. We have a full tank of gas, which I guess is good news. But for the first hour, we really did not know where we were heading or how long we would be in the air. He slowed down our flight. We were palm beach in Newark. He slowed down because we had a lot of gas and he knew that there was probably a lot of issues with landing and that he was texting with ground control. And that was kind of the information. But he was not in any way frightened or flustered.

46:04And he kind of was this calm voice that really helped me, at least. They're about to brief. I just want to let everyone watching know that we are about to have a briefing from the Homeland Security Secretary, I believe, and the Transportation Secretary from the White House in just a moment. So we're going to go to that, Rochelle. If I interrupt you, it is because of that. But when you were in the air, what kinds of information were you getting? Were you able to – were you getting this live on your phones? I would imagine people are on Wi-Fi and you're watching all this happen, even as you're stuck in the sky.

46:37Frantic texting, trying to remain calm. My husband's with me, thank God. But also, you know, we have two sons at home. So we were, you know, just kind of worst case scenario thoughts go through your mind. Really made friends with the passengers and everybody here was just, you know, when we landed, the entire flight clapped and people were crying. and it was just one of those surreal moments because I think the not knowing was probably the worst part, like not knowing when or if we were going to land. So when we did land, everyone broke out in clapping and tears and so that's good. The bad news is we have not moved.

47:14We landed up around 5.45 and we have not moved an inch and there are a lot of flights ahead of us. We were the last one to land here so I think it's going to be a pretty long night ahead. Yeah, gosh, it sure is. And I really just thinking of you, I'm sure everyone watching is. But thank God you're on the ground. You're on the ground and you'll be with your boys. And it just may be a very long. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, Rochelle, thank you very much. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Richard, you heard what Rochelle just said. She's been on the ground now for two hours and five minutes.

47:50And she says they have not moved one inch. That was supposedly the last plane that's come into Newark. The luck of the draw. I've got a friend who landed in LAX and they were off the plane within 30 minutes. It's the pure luck. Every time we see them, these planes are stacked everywhere. I think, you know, the honesty that we could hear, I see we're waiting for this news conference. The honesty that we need to hear from these cabinet secretaries. Number one, what do they know about it so far? Number two, how long is it going to be? realistically before something approaching a workable aviation system?

48:31And if the answer is we don't know and it could be weeks, so be it. But at least the traveling public can then make their decisions whether to try and fly or not. This is the transparency, David Soucy, that we wanted, right? That maybe they don't know a lot, but standing up there and owning it and telling us what they do know as the American public is extremely important for transparency and confidence. It absolutely is. And also along with that transparency becomes the ownership of it, too. It's not like you can blame it on someone else at this point. This is something that they're dealing with.

49:09It's in their hands and they're working on it. And they just need to be honest about where they are with it. Mary Scavo, you know, what do you think is most important? As I I said, I think we may be hearing here from Secretary of Transportation, right? Sean Duffy oversees the FAA, as well as Mark Wayne Wallen, who we had heard from in front of cameras briefly a couple hours ago, DHS Secretary. Well, and I agree with Richard. I mean, we have to hear what the real situation is. And the fact of the matter is, is many of these systems were built out when I was Inspector General, and that's decades ago.

49:45And they should have been replaced by now. We've had this new build-out system. Secretary Duffy did announce this a year or half ago or a year ago, and he said he was going to build out a new system. But I don't think they have a handle on how many moving parts there are in this antiquated and very Frankenstein-ish air traffic control system. There are pieces and parts older than my kids. And I think they have to say that. It is going to take a while to put this broken system back together, but only for the interim. because we need the new system, which they've promised us. Which, of course, but then that still begs the question, because that's been true, that this has been a system in dire need of upgrade, replacement, and improvement, right?

50:29You have been sounding an alarm on this, Mary, for a long time. But they have to explain why it happened today, why it happened now and not another time. We know the context. They've been rolling out a new AI system to take care of certain high levels of flight. No idea whether that's related, not related at all. We don't know anything at this point, but they have to answer the why it happened now. Especially with these three pieces, because to rely on aircraft separation by data link text, it's a different system. It's not phone text. It's called data link. But to rely on that, by the way, we're lucky we have that.

51:10But to rely on that and know that the majority of the planes in the system, you do have to separate them with radio, with radar, and with these routers. These three pieces are a really interesting mix of problems, and they're going to have to reassure the public that they can get their handle on these three systems and then make the whole rest of the system work. And so you're exactly right. Today, all three are affected. That's going to be a big problem to solve and to explain. David Susie, what can they or what do they need to say that would answer questions and calm someone like you and all of your colleagues who are flying?

51:50The pilots who, you know, are taking care of thousands of lives are in their hands every day. Well, again, it comes back to, like Richard said, the transparency of it is saying this is honest. This is what we are. This is what we have. Now, remember, this system has been in place for many, many years, as Mary alluded to there with decades. And it's true. It's been there for a long, long time. Everyone's been trying to improve it. There have been initiatives to improve it, but they need to let us know what this singular failure was. To just say simply, it's an old system. It's got to be replaced and we have this failure isn't enough.

52:30They're going to have to tell the public, this is specifically what happened. This is what we've done to correct it, to make sure that it's safe in the future. But again, remember, no one's been injured. This is the most important thing. The fact that they did this quickly, that they grounded the airplanes, they're all landing, they're all coming in and landing, they're taking care of the safety first. That really says a lot for what's going on right now to me, is that nothing terrible has happened, honestly. Certainly a lot of inconvenience, and it will take a long time to get it back. But just be honest about that.

53:04Tell us what's happened. And I think that would be, say, so much to what's going on in this situation right now. Kennedy, when you look at this from the cybersecurity aspect, what are the most important questions that you hope that they are going to address here in these next few moments? Yeah, it's really the integrity of the systems and making sure that none of those systems were compromised. If they were compromised and this was a cyber attack, it's going to take a substantial amount of time to rebuild that infrastructure in an already fragile infrastructure. I think what we need to have is a massive discussion on expediting the timeframes.

53:36I mean, we're talking 2020 minimally until these systems are starting to be replaced. That needs to be expedited. I mean, air traffic control and safety is number one in priority. And we shouldn't be having these systems from the 1980s. I mean, this has been neglected, you know, for as long as I've been born, frankly, on how these systems need to actually operate and work. We have a lot of modern systems that can protect, you know, safety as well as efficiency on how we do things. that needs to be really replaced and fixed. All right. Thanks to all of you and stay with me here. I want to just go back to Shimon Prokupas at Newark.

54:09Shimon, I was talking to a passenger, Rochelle Hruska. She's on what her pilot said was the last plane that landed at Newark during this ground control. So ground stop, I'm sorry. So two hours and five minutes ago, that plane landed. She said it hasn't moved an inch. Is that just the overall kind of summary of what Newark Airport is right now? What are you seeing? Well, so when we were with you in the beginning, we were upstairs where people were coming in. But look at this, what's happening here at Newark Airport. This is something that certainly caught my eye, is that there is luggage. These are people who didn't even leave, who aren't arriving.

54:48These are people who are waiting to take off and basically are spending hours now going around the arrivals area of the airport trying to find their luggage. because so many people were checking in bags, and now they have been spending hours. In one case, a man told me he was sitting on a plane for two hours, and he's been looking for his luggage now for two hours, and this wraps around every carousel in just rows and rows of luggage that is now here, people looking for it. Some people presumably have left the airport because they just got tired of waiting, but that's the story here now. People are just trying to get out of here.

55:30They understand what's happening is happening, but the goal now for them is to get their luggage and try to get home or perhaps a hotel and try to figure out when they could rebook their flights. And there are a couple of really interesting stories here, Aaron. You know, I was speaking to a man who was trying to make it to his grandmother's 90th birthday, and now he's not going to be able to go. Yeah, it's just sad, and there's just so many stories. Everybody's traveling for a reason, right, to see someone or get to home to somebody. Shimon, thank you very much at Newark. And just looking at a plane taxing at Philadelphia International Airport, that plane looks like it just took off.

56:08Mary Scava, the planes that we're seeing take off at this point, my understanding is, are planes that, if you're on the east coast, are going straight out of the U.S. airspace over the Atlantic, and if you're on the west coast, are going over the Pacific. But those are the takeoffs that we're seeing. as long as they can get clearance uh air traffic control clearance and get good radio communications and computer communications out of the u.s without using the affected air route traffic control centers as long as they can do that they can safely fly and you get good you know separation spacing um it's a safe flight it's anything within the u.s which is again i mean i suppose why so many people in Washington are undoubtedly being concerned, although they can't say it's any kind of attack.

56:54But if they aren't using the ARTCCs, which are the American en route, then they can safely be separated and fly and go home or abroad or wherever those people are headed. Yeah. And when we're looking here, San Francisco, obviously it's late afternoon there. You can see dust coming, but the planes, the planes all sitting there on the tarmac as well. Some of those. We did see one take off for South Korea not long ago. Premia, again, that was able to leave the U.S. airspace, as Mary had just indicated. All right, well, we're awaiting that press conference with the Transportation Secretary and the Homeland Security Secretary from the White House in just a few moments.

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