LIFTS Episode 99 - How Gen Z Sparked the No‑Alcohol Movement | with Hazlo Founder Sam Moore

0:00I think we are entering what I'll now call a post-alcohol generation. I thought maybe I was just miserable, a miserable English person that was always grumpy, but actually it was alcohol that had a massive effect on it. I spent an extended period of time, multiple months, not consuming alcohol. And that was where, you know, as Matthew mentioned as well, I kind of just saw color come back into my life.

0:26Welcome to this week's episode of Lifts. I'm Matthew Januzek, and I'm here with my co-host, Mohamed Iqbal. Mo, how are you doing today? I'm doing really good. I'm really excited about this episode. Let me get into it really quick. So why are we excited about this? Matthew, you and I talk about drinking, to drink, to not to drink. You've gone through periods, as long as I've known you, where you've taken anywhere from one month to even, I think as long as six months of not drinking at all. I still do think you're more fun when you drink, but we can come back to that later. But either way, we're diving into one of the biggest behavioral shifts that's happening right now.

1:10Something that sits at the intersection of wellness and culture and even kind of how it redefines what going out means. We're kind of rethinking what going out means. And it's tied to alcohol. For centuries, alcohol has dominated social life. It's been the social lubricant in many cultures. It's been the centerpiece of connection to celebrate, commensurate, all of it. But that monopoly that alcohol has had in those areas is really ending. And I think we are entering what I'll now call a post-alcohol generation. So here's some data that I pulled up with this episode. Gen Z drinks roughly 25 % less alcohol than millennials did at the same age.

1:5842 % of global drinkers report actively moderating the alcohol intake. I'll probably put me in that camp. One third of adults now identify as sober curious. And now the no or low alcohol category is on track to hit 30 billion by 2032. So the real spark behind it, and you and I have talked about this for a long time, I think just because I'm into data, I think a lot of it is driven by data and wearables. Because when you look at, like we both have O-rings on, they've made the impact of alcohol impossible to ignore. You just cannot ignore what it does to you. So one drink can drop HRV as much by 20 % to 30 % and cut REM sleep by almost 40 % and wreck your readiness the next day.

2:53I don't even look at my Aura app if I'm even going to have a glass of wine. So the shift is not just about being sober. It's about performance and agency, well-being, longevity. However, though, people still want that lift. They don't want the hangover. So that brings me to today's guest, Sam Moore. So today we are joined by an entrepreneur who's at the center of this cultural and behavioral pivot. Sam is the founder of a next generation alcohol alternative designed for people who still want to socialize, connect, and take the edge off, but without sacrificing sleep recovery, cognition, or performance the next day.

3:33His product lives at the intersection of functional ingredients, mood elevation, cleaner, smarter rituals. And he's building it at a time when categories like THC drinks and functional beverages and non-alcoholic spirits are truly exploding. And in fact, I was in Australia last week, which is a heavy beer drinking culture. And on tap, they had non-alcoholic beverages, which I thought was pretty remarkable. So Sam, welcome to Lifts. Thank you, Mo. I appreciate you having me and Matthew as well. And for that fantastic intro, you've clearly done a lot of research on the same things that I've been researching very heavily.

4:12I thought a starting point would be for us to be a little bit open and maybe share our own individual relationships with alcohol. and and that's dangerous I guess where you all are and what your journey's been because I'm I'm sure there's many people listening that uh that may be considering things themselves so so I'm happy to to to go ahead and and share what I've learned and I think I think it was sort of linking some of the points that we we discussed as we go forward but I think for me like as growing up it was always part of of culture really I worked in the bar and restaurant industry when I left school And then I worked in the nightclubs from about 17 years old.

4:56I was a doorman in nightclubs. And I saw firsthand a lot of the, without knowing it at the time, but I saw firsthand a lot of the negative sides of alcohol because I was essentially throwing people out of nightclubs and preventing people from coming in nightclubs because of the results of alcohol. But it never really affected me. But when I was younger, because of this, I wasn't necessarily much of a drinker. It wasn't something that I really did until I think I got older. And then with my father, he really enjoyed his wines. And I started to appreciate good wine. And then it became a little bit more of a habit.

5:38When I moved to California, I think for different reasons, probably had a little bit more of a healthier lifestyle. I think when I was back in England, you had many, many years where it was you would you would sort of leave for work in the mornings and it was dark. You come home in the evenings, it would darken. You didn't really go out a lot because it was cold. So hanging out in the pubs or going home and having a nice bottle of wine was always something you look forward to. And I think when I was in England, I really drank a lot more. When I came out here, I started to have like a month off alcohol and then two months off alcohol.

6:13And then whenever I was drinking, I was monitoring things like my sleep score once, you know, with things like Aura Ring that certainly affected a lot of my habits and influenced many of my behaviors. And I also started to measure my mood, which was a really big thing that I wasn't conscious of. I always used to know that when I wake up on a Monday morning, I didn't feel great and I was in a little bit of a bad mood. But what I didn't realize is that when you sort of track your mood over time with alcohol, that not drinking really changed. You know, I just had a totally different perspective on life.

6:53And I thought maybe I was just miserable and a miserable English person that was always grumpy. But actually, it was alcohol that had a massive effect on it. So now where I am is almost as much as I do enjoy a nice glass of wine and a margarita and going out and socializing, it just has such an effect on my health, how I feel, how I sleep, my energy levels and my mood. It's a very, very high price to pay for a few hours of enjoyment one evening. So, yeah, I'll pass the baton over to you, Mo, for your experience with alcohol or your relationship with alcohol, should I say. Yeah, I think it's a little bit, it's a complex one for sure, because when I, you know, as a lot of you know, I was born in Dubai.

7:41My parents were Muslim and hopefully most people know this, but in Islam, you can't really drink, right? So alcohol is a prohibited drink. drink and so and I also grew up I would say in a culture up until I was 11 being in Dubai where just alcohol wasn't around even especially in the 80s early 90s just wasn't something that if you go to Dubai now it is very much around and very much available but but back then it really wasn't it just was never really a part of my life so I would say Matthew unlike you it wasn't part of my culture uh with with family or just kind of where I spent most of my childhood when I came to the States, obviously alcohol was everywhere, but I still had a very much of a negative connotation about the impacts of it.

8:28And you get kind of taught these things of what it does, but I was more alcohol curious, like a lot of kids and teenagers growing up, but I actually did not have my first drink until college. I joined a fraternity. And then, and of course, when you first joined a fraternity, I think it's still true now with a lot of them, at least, you're dry because that is part of the pledge period is you are not allowed to drink when you're pledging. Maybe not all fraternities do this, but the one that I joined, that was it. And then after that, I still didn't get, because I was still into, I was an athlete, I was into fitness and I just wasn't a part of me, but I started taking a little bit.

9:05I think I had a Red Bull and vodka when I went out in New York City. And just like you in club culture, there was drinking, there's some other things as well. But I started and I kind of liked how I felt, to be honest, like, and I was a little bit older. At the time, I think I had my first drink when I was 19 years old. But a couple of things. I just don't have an addictive personality. So I'm 45. I've never thrown up from a night out ever. I've never had more than never, right? I've never had more than three drinks in my life at any given time. And I think because of that, I like to think I have a healthy relationship with alcohol.

9:49So where am I today? I have not, as much as I wanted to, because I know the impact of one or two glasses of wine, what it's done, I've not taken a month off. And I also add in my 20s, when I was in the corporate world, we did a lot of entertaining. And I got to sample expensive wine and great food. And to me, it was always the food and the wine and the social connections and work. It all kind of went together. But again, it was all done in moderation. So I never had these horrible experiences that people attribute to drinking. And I've always feel like I've got a healthy relationship. So now I do enjoy my wine.

10:28and I'm perfectly fine having one or two drinks a night and I feel good. It helps loosen me up a little bit. It helps bring my stress down a little bit and I could still work out the next day. So it's interesting. Some things like rum and tequila, not so good for me because I don't feel great. But I think with wine and vodka, I'm okay. But I'm probably ignoring the reality. I know my scores go down and I'm just like, yeah, but I don't feel so bad. So, um, I don't know, maybe I should try cutting it out altogether, but again, I just don't feel like I've had a really negative view of, of drinking.

11:07Sam, what's, what's, uh, tell us, tell us your story. Yeah. I mean, uh, it's been, I really appreciate both of you sharing and you two seem to have some of the healthiest relationship with alcohol of, of people that I know and interact with on a, a regular basis. So that's very, you know, kudos to both of you. My early days story is probably closer to Matthew's. And I grew up in suburbs of Chicago, went to a Big Ten college, went back to live in Chicago, and very similar weather patterns to the UK. I actually did my study abroad in Manchester. So I got to experience that too. And I know that you spend a lot of time indoors in pubs.

11:45And especially like, you know, we're talking the week before Thanksgiving, we're about to hit kind of like the core time in the chicagoland area where we are we are boozing heavy most of the time um and it was interesting so like for me i also worked at a bar in college um and then i remember right after college my first job was in consulting and i worked in software sales and i found myself in a lot of environments where it was the the goal was to be the person who could consume the most but then wake up the next day and still function with any capacity, right? And that's what happened in college when I was in my fraternity.

12:26That was what happened at the financial consulting space at Ernst & Young, where I worked, and then in the software sales space. So I definitely was kind of immersed in environments where it kind of facilitated a little bit more unhealthy relationship with alcohol. And similar to how Mo said, I've never been somebody who, for whatever reason, I was not born with that trait where there's a chemical addiction to things. I've always been able to kind of habitually do things and then stop and kind of oscillate between that very easily. but I was really good at being the person who you know would close the deal for the big deal for the company and software go out party with everyone wake up at you know 5 a.m the next day beat everyone into the office and kind of do that but doing that on a consistent basis led me into just kind of feeling terrible all the time and you know Matthew you you alluded to it as well just kind of I felt like every every Monday was miserable and it would be kind of the worst the worst day productivity wise, the worst day of my mood, super irritable, and it would gradually get better.

13:36And then, you know, Wednesday night would have a work happy hour, Thursday, we would go out to dinner, Friday, you know, Saturday with the friends. And so it was just kind of this consistent cycle of, you know, Sunday, Monday, I was digging myself out of the hole to then go right back in the rest of the week. And I kind of hit a point where, you know, I just, I felt depressed more often than I felt happy. And, you know, I kind of saw that this, there was just a really consistent trend between drinking and that feeling. And I, you know, it wasn't until I did 75 hard, you know, a couple of years ago.

14:09And that was the first time in my adult life since high school, probably that I spent an extended period of time, multiple months, not consuming alcohol. And that was where, you know, as Matthew mentioned as well, I kind of just saw color come back into my life and just the consistency of my ability to just show up as the person I wanted to be and not be so irritable or seem to be just kind of blown with the wind. And I think what's been really great to hear your stories is I'm not somebody who, I'm not 100 % alcohol free. Right now, it's been probably about four months since I had my last drink at my brother's wedding.

14:49But I've come to have my relationship to be similar to like art, where I just really love a very high quality wine, or I really love like a really high quality bourbon or tequila, and something that I can kind of appreciate the craftsmanship of it, which is, you know, I kind of try to make our drink kind of fall into that as well. But have it be something that it's my default position is no to drinking. And then if there's a really good reason, like my brother's wedding, or somebody comes over with an incredible thing that I wouldn't experience otherwise, then I will indulge. But I think that being the default answer being no, and really kind of like asserting control over when I drink as opposed to it being kind of the compulsive assumption that two, three, four, five nights a week, that's what I'm ordering at the bar.

15:39That has been the biggest shift in my in my alcohol journey. And, you know, we'll, we'll get into the, to the, the, the company that I created because of it. But, but that's really what led me to wanting to have something that was a perfect option for those days when it's the default answer is no. That is really interesting. And it, it, you know, hearing you say that, I think that's my relationship with sugar. I like cut out sugar out of my life. Matthew's life, you know, it's true, but I cut out sugar in my life, I think in my teenage years, cause I just know how harmful sugars and dyes and all these other things are to you.

16:13And I still continue, and I avoid sugar like that. And I think I've also avoided sometimes carbs in certain times. Matthew, I know you've gone through that phase as well. We both love our bread, but there are times where we, depending on what we're doing, I might cut that out. But for whatever reason, I have not viewed, and I think this is a lot of people who are in the health space, we understand the foods that we want to avoid. We understand what healthy looks like. We understand the difference between organic and non-organic. But for whatever reason, drinking, maybe because we don't, a lot of, at least myself, I maybe have a glass of wine twice a week.

16:48So it's not like I'm drinking every single day and I don't come from that culture. But I've got some other interesting data points that I research for this episode here that I think will frame, Sam, exactly what you and Matt have been talking about. The non-drinking population has gone up from 15 % to 23 % of adults in just this past decade. And sober, curious searches are up 500 % since 2019. 500%. Functional beverages grew by 54%. Now, to the UK, because I knew we might bring up some UK stuff, the UK has lost over 15 ,000 pubs since 2010, which is crazy. And nightclubs are down by 30 % to 40%, depending on where you are.

17:33I know New York has seen that as well. In-bar visitation has dropped down. Even spending on alcohol at home is down. So it is definitely a movement. And to your point, Sam, you mentioned this idea about enjoying something and really relishing in the moment and appreciating it like art. That is personally how I also view wine. I don't get the table wine anymore. So I will definitely invest in a good bottle that will last me the whole week. and you can get those air protector things, right? That could kind of protect the wine. And that's kind of how I drink wine today. But I really look at it like it's something to really relish and enjoy, but not as a social lubricant.

18:16There are many times where Matt and I have gone out to conferences and we're just drinking water or soda. And yeah, it's interesting to hear your journey. Absolutely. And I mean, I think that's the most, some of us who are raised in different environments, right? Like we were not taught this kind of appreciation of this, you know, I would call it mindful consumption, which, you know, it seems like you from a very early age, whether it was cutting out sugar, cutting out different products, you were very conscious and mindful of what you were putting into your body. and for whatever reason, the suburbs of Chicago in particular, we are eating Italian beef, deep dish pizza, just really pushing the limits on carb intake as well as alcohol intake.

19:02And it's almost celebrated in some respects. And so it took a lot of reaching the pinnacle of that in some areas, but then really having to intentionally realize this direction I'm going, you know, how is this like these decisions I'm making, what I'm consuming, how is this impacting my day to day life, how I'm feeling every day. And it was living in that kind of like, low, you know, depressed state for a while to be like, maybe these are the things I need to cut out. And so alcohol was obviously a big one. But it was, you know, it's everything. It's it's being consistent in the gym, five, six days a week, It's, you know, not eating like anything I want all the time.

19:43All of those decisions kind of came together at a similar point. And I think it really speaks to what, you know, how it sounds like you just your default setting was, was like being very mindful of the different things that we're putting in our bodies. One of the things with alcohol that people don't really realize is, is that there is a light addiction. And I think it's not until you say, well, okay, you're a light drinker, but you're a consistent light drinker where you have a glass of wine maybe on a Friday and on a Saturday and even if it's not a lot there is definitely a dependency on it that when you have to withdraw it from the Friday or the Saturday or that habit then people realize okay now it's quite difficult what do I do and they become a little bit maybe anxious or irritable or confused about what to do And I think there's good reason for that because we all have stressful jobs or life is stressful now.

20:40So what do you do when you finish and you want to take the edge off what's happening in the week or, you know, distract yourself from some of the issues you're having? And so they say when you get rid of, when you remove something from your life, whether it's food, carbs or alcohol, generally you need to think of how you replace that with some alternatives. And I was curious in terms of your journey and the product that you've developed that we want to talk about today is how you look at the landscape. Because there are a number of things that when people stop alcohol, they start taking THC or they stop alcohol and they have other stimulants or things that have different effects.

21:27And some of them, there's definitely some interesting stuff out there now that is healthy that people are using as alternatives. And I've experimented with a number of them myself because they certainly seem to be less harmful to your health and to your mental state than alcohol. But they all still have a price to pay. And some of the ones that I've, there's an article, there's one here, which is from the Bev industry. And essentially, some of the more popular alternatives are cava, which seems to be more of a lighter, natural route that kind of gives you this slight sedative effect, which I've tried and is interesting, but it's not the same as alcohol.

22:08You've got the different strains of THC, which also give you different degrees of alternative relaxation. I know the whole THC drinks, particularly in the USA, are becoming increasingly popular. And now you can actually sort of get these in gas stations, even though I know that's something that's currently being rediscussed by the government again. But some of these light THC drinks, there's also Kratom, which also I found is kind of a little bit similar to alcohol in some ways. um so i i i wanted to i guess i guess get your thoughts on these healthy alternatives and when you were developing your product how how how wide and and far did you go at researching things that were actually not just going to be a nice flavored drink which doesn't really do anything but but give you some form of state change where you actually feel um that you know you are mentally in a little bit of a different place to what you would be when you were having alcohol.

23:12Absolutely. I mean, the alcohol alternative space, especially in the last three years, we'll call it, has been one of the most fascinating things to watch evolve. And I think you mentioned, you know, Kava, THC, and Kratom being three of the main kind of alternative substances that people have looked for. And Mo mentioned this when he was beginning his stories, you know, drinking alcohol is fun. And I think people, people enjoy the sensation and the feeling that that comes from that first sip of alcohol, you know, maybe a couple drinks, obviously, there's a significant diminishing return that happens once you go beyond just the first couple.

23:52But you know, end of a stressful day, end of a stressful week, there are very few things that can help you change your state away from like high strung stress to relaxation, like alcohol does. I think in the space, Kava is the one that is the most intriguing to me to kind of watch evolve. I think the other two, THC and Kratom, are very interesting. I think it's very early days for kind of mass consumption. It's early days for Kava as well, but Kava doesn't seem to have much of the negative press or repercussions associated with it. I know the THC, as part of the government shutdown being reversed, they've done a repeal of the farm bill that's going to basically outlaw all THC beverages in the US by the end of next year, which is devastating for a couple of my friends in the space who are making some really great products.

24:52Uh, but that's just to kind of, you know, quickly think THC is just a very regulatory maze that I, I did not want to personally be involved in. Um, but there are some, you know, really incredible products that seemingly are helping a lot of people cut out alcohol. Uh, Kratom is something that I personally don't think I'll ever touch. Um, and that's, it's due to, it hits on your opiate receptors, like very similar to the way that morphine does or even heroin. um it is definitely not to the same degree but there is a increasingly uh more and more data coming out of people becoming very very addicted to kratom products in particular um and so that's that's something that you know just just to keep in mind while you're going it is legal it is it is a route uh but it does impact your body a little bit different than all these other substances do But for me personally and kind of what I was going through, I think what I was looking for personally was something that would allow me to be in these social settings and make me feel good but not necessarily initiate the dramatic state change that a lot of these substances are able to do.

26:09And, you know, for me, it was, I mentioned how this kind of coincided with a overhaul of pretty much everything wellness and consumption related to my life. And I wanted to really focus on using ingredients that have been around for, you know, hundreds if not thousands of years. And were used as kind of like medicinal type elements and ingredients for people to use to just feel better. Um, that was kind of, I was, I was in a bad feeling bad all the time state and I wanted to feel better as much as possible. Um, and so we, I spent a lot of time, I actually have a friend who's a James Beard award-winning mixologist who I sat down and partnered with and we basically spent, you know, four or five months just making different blends using a couple of these different ingredients that you mentioned there.

26:56Uh, but just to kind of see what, what ingredients we could use that we know how it impacts people's bodies that has a long legacy of both anecdotal and medical studies included with it. And, you know, by drinking it, what ends up happening to our bodies. And so the blend that we settled on was Panex red ginseng, ginkgo biloba, and magnesium glycinate. That's kind of like our signature adaptogen blend that we use. And it is something where after you drink one can, you will feel something. But Mo, when I hopped on the screen, you're like, oh, you're drinking it now. It has more of like a light energy and focus effect to it.

27:41And I really call it just like the ultimate presence in a can. So if you're at a concert, right, you're taking a sip of this, and you're wanting to be in that moment, and you're not wanting to drink or necessarily be altered in that way. This is something that's great. Or, you know, it's the afternoon, you've already had your two espressos, like I had this morning, and you want something to kind of help you kind of focus and be centered and work and be focused on what you're doing. This is kind of thing. So when we were looking at it, it was either we could go into that state change type of a lane and explore these different ones, but we're resettled with something that was more of a known quantity in terms of the ingredients we're using, as well as just going after the effect of feeling good and feeling better than feeling like an ultimate state change.

28:29So this is something that you imagine people, you just used an example of being at a concert and picking up a Haslow with those ingredients in it. But at the same time, there is a certain sense of at least perceived relaxation and comfort that comes from whether it's THC or even alcohol. I've actually tried a couple of THC drinks over the summer and it, it does have an impact, especially if you drink two cans, it definitely has an impact and you feel it. And I'm like, and I question, I'm like, is this any better than alcohol? Like, I, you know, I was wondering about that, but sometimes of course you think you're more relaxed, but interestingly, if you look at your heart rate, drink alcohol actually goes up.

29:14And so, so your body is in a mode of being stressed, but mentally you think that you're relaxed. I think that's the paradox with alcohol is it's actually not good for you and that you feel like you're relaxed. So when you think about how would you describe the three ingredients that you used? What is the, do you view this as being a social action or people could use this in a social setting? Or is it more like how you're using it instead of an afternoon Celsius, which actually admittedly have a can here right next to me. And so for an afternoon Celsius, you'd pick up a Haslow. I mean, how do you view this as an intended use?