All-Time Classic in Paris

26:18Well, it's not very progressive, is it? in a sense that you have one team playing that's going to win the league, Barcelona, playing an amazingly entertaining style of football that's very progressive, it's very good to watch and it has brought a lot of success. And you've got a Real Madrid side that are the polar opposite. They have not played very entertaining football but for the odd game. and the whole reason of hiring a Xabi Alonso was to try and get out of this lull of the sort of defensive, counter-attacking not wanting to press high up the field type of football that Real Madrid have had success with, certainly that fell away at the end and this just feels like just trying to go back to being organised, because that's all Mourinho will do and it's not the Mourinho of when he went to Real Madrid because he was still sort of in his pomp.

27:18He had been successful at Porto, at Chelsea, at Inter. He was Inter before Real Madrid. Yeah, he just beat Inter. Yeah, and you think, he won the Champions League with Inter. They beat Bayern Munich and it was one of the most defensively boring games I think I've ever seen. But they won. And that's kind of him. But that's not even the same Jose Mourinho anymore. Although Benfica is doing okay. They're going to be in the Champions League and blah, blah, blah. I don't really see this as a very forward-thinking, progressive decision from Florentine. Yeah, it might be a short-term gap, but that's all it is.

27:53So I don't think it's thinking outside the box very well. Will the players listen to him more than they have others? Well, they may. How far that gets you, we'll see as it pertains to Real Madrid. I just think Jose Mourinho is no longer an elite manager in the world. He was. For a long period of time, he was very much at the top of the profession. Since then, there's been a tailspin out of control where he hasn't had an elite job. And the reason as to why he hasn't had an elite job is because he has had mixed success and mixed results wherever he has gone since he has become less than elite. Real Madrid are in need of elite.

28:42Mourinho in name may be so, but as it pertains to results, as of late, that hasn't been the case. This will be interesting. This will be a car crash. This will be the sort of thing that you kind of have to stop and watch because Mourinho himself is interesting. Just the name and what he's going to bring. But in terms of the substance of what he brings to Real Madrid and what's needed from Real Madrid, I think there is a disconnect. And that graphic we just put up just tells you sometimes. And I'm going to give that, that graphic needs a good kicking. Because people look at it and say, Ali was saying he's not the same manager, and I think most people that watch the game would say, yeah, it's fallen away pretty badly from what it was.

29:30And then you look at the win percentages of Fernabache and Benfica, but you look at the countries, Turkey and Portugal, you're going to, that's skewered because Fernabache and Galatasaray and Besiktas and teams that are pulverising most of the other teams in the league are our Benfica and Sporting Club and Porto normally. It is a very it is a very lopsided those two leagues are very lopsided so those win percentages really don't tell a story in terms of you know his managerial career in the last decade or so. Robbo you said when we were talking at Wembley about Real Madrid that this squad is uncoachable could Jose Mourinho prove to be the man who can coach them?

30:12No, because he's no longer a coach. I think he's still playing in the past. The style of football, the tactics, are way back from 10 years ago when he was doing quite well. He hasn't progressed his tactics. I don't think he coaches now so much on the field. He tries, because he can't coach and can't get the best out of teams, what he tries to do is manage the referee, the press. That's all you hear from him, managing the opposition. That's how he manages these days, in the press, in the media and, you know, against the referees and whatever. So it's going to be worse discipline at Real Madrid than has ever been.

30:46And at the moment, they need discipline. You know, they've got three or four players who are all disciplined when they start losing games. Goulair has a tantrum and gets himself sent off. Bellingham has done it in the past. Vinny Junior has done it in the past. We saw Mbappe produce a terrible tackle last season when they were losing the game. All these things have taken place. He's not the man to take them forward. He will actually take them back and make them worse than they are at the moment. And of course, Frank, you've got the Presciani element as well, in that Jose Mourinho has defended his player, who, of course, racially abused Vinicius Junior.

31:18How does that dynamic work on top of everything else that we've discussed? It's going to be very difficult. He will have to have an explanation with Vinicius Junior, for sure. I don't know what he can explain. And I'm with the guys, you know. It's an entertainment to have Jose Mourinho. but in terms of effectiveness, I'm not sure he's going to be able to bring something. I mean, football has changed, has changed, sorry, comparing to the period where he was the top manager in the world. But now the players, they ask for more. They want to feel that you are like a father, and he can be like a father, but he can be a bad father as well, a very strict one.

32:03And players nowadays don't cope with that. They don't know how to do that. And therefore, I think Mourinho's way of thinking the football is from the past. And he's not from the present right now. And we saw that. We saw the graphic. Everybody understands or has understood that, in fact, he was a great coach. but there was a descent towards something normal and not exceptional. And Madrid, I don't know what they're doing. I mean, it's kind of an habit, you know, after Zidane comes back, Celotti comes back, now it's Mourinho comes back. I mean, Mr. Perez having new ideas maybe to structure the club, but I don't think it's going to be a success.

32:50I want to see that because, again, it's an entertainment, but with the player that he has in the dressing room, that's going to be a tough task. Well, if he does take over, he'll be taking over a side. Of course, it'll finish second in La Liga. How dare you? Well, we can all, of course, finish this weekend. Barcelona taking on Osasuna. Real Madrid lose against Espanyol. And it is done, dusted. Those games live on ESPN+. Now, big news about El Clásico. We'll have a watch party at the Torch at the LA Coliseum. Now, don't miss El Clásico fan experience. An unforgettable watch party. Live concert from Aslaban Armada.

33:26featuring appearances by La Liga Legends, Carlos Puyo, and Eden Hazard. We'll say you made the 10th at the torch. Just click on the old QR code. As long as he doesn't get injured on the way there. Wait a minute.

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35:29Arsenal were very much in their pomp at the time. And they destroyed Simeone's side in a second half performance that was excellent from the Premier League team. It would start with Gabriel's header here. Oh, you know this was back in the day when Arsenal was still fun. Yes, indeed. So it's kind of pointless. I was just about to say, there's no relevance to tomorrow's game. Well I'm glad we got replays as well, there we are. Because you could look at and say Atleti have won, well they lost the Copa del Rey final, but they got the cup of river and knocked Barcelona out of the Champions League in the quarter finals.

36:14And Arsenal are just a... It's just not the same team. And it hasn't been for weeks. And they got their three points at the weekend. You're looking at me, you're laughing. Everybody's like, it's Jokers 4-0. I love when we run a highlight in that's extremely irrelevant to tomorrow's game. So, there we go. Is that a Hoffenheim highlight from last week? There you are, Arteta celebrating. Finished 4-0 everybody. There you go. Let's hear from the managers, shall we? Here is Simeone and Arteta ahead of the game.

36:51The fact that Atletico Madrid is playing a Champions League semi-final again after nine years is extraordinary. After playing it four times in 14 years, it's truly wonderful. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. I believe that this faith, this excitement, this contagious energy that our fans give us will do us a lot of good. We're going to face a tough match against a very good opponent. Well, after that win, a massive win for us against Newcastle. You could sense straight away the energy, the confidence coming into this game. It's a massive privilege to be here again two years in a row in the semifinal of the Champions League representing our club and yeah what an opportunity we're gonna grab it with both hands you're gonna see a team that wants to be dominant that wants to win it and they wants to start to decide a tie tomorrow yeah I've not seen a team I'm not seeing an Arsenal team that wants to be dominant for quite some time I mean I don't see did you see the Arsenal game at the weekend absolutely we didn't see it because it was on at the same time as the semi-final, but apparently it was, I mean, it was three points, which is what they needed this time of the season, but it was the same as.

38:06Yep. It was terrible. Were they dominant, Ali? Slightly dominant, but I think it's more of a reflection on Newcastle, but we digress. Yes, indeed.

38:19Go on, Dan. Anybody got a 5-4? I want to see predictions, please, because I'd like to see if anyone's got this as being, as anywhere near as entertaining as we saw today. Xhaka and Frank have got three goals and then everyone else is going for a draw. Frank, you think Atleti are going to advance over the two legs? Why? They lost 4-0, don't forget that. Look, we just showed it. Yeah, that's not the same time. That's not the same competition. It's the semi-final of the Champions League. I don't know. I want to believe that Tético can surprise everybody and go to that final. I don't think it would be a bit...

38:56I don't think it would be a big surprise, Frank. I don't think we'd be sat here going, wow, can you imagine? Well, because sometimes ago, like a month ago or two months ago, everybody agreed to put Arsenal as one of the contenders, which may be Bayern Munich. But things have changed and their football is not that effective. They had lots of doubts and their results and the way they play, as Craig and Ali said they're not dominant at all anymore so therefore I want to believe that Atletico again can surprise and put the selling to the final and put Arsenal out of the competition which you know wouldn't be a surprise anymore so yeah I put Arsenal Atletico winning that first leg and going through.

39:43Robbo sell this game to me. Oh boy Oh sell the game to you well that's a difficult thing to do because how can I sell the game to you um you hope that Atleti play on the front foot you hope that the the players in the front areas Alvarez makes the right sort of runs Griezmann might find the right pass they'll get saw a lot on at some point and crosses are coming to the box and he might win balls in the air and they try and press high up the field against an Arsenal side that at the moment don't want to don't want to have possession too much because they're not very good in possession that don't get the ball forward that quickly.

40:17But Arsenal are quite good defensively. So I can't sell you the game, Dan. I did the two sporting Lisbon games. They were absolutely terrible. And every Arsenal game I've seen in recent weeks hasn't been particularly good. OK, wrong person. Wrong person. They will still get a win. They've got to have... Well, what I say is, Arsenal, Rob was right. They are defensively. Certainly, if we take the Barcelona, Copa del Rey game in particular. Yeah. Another big game for Atleti, as Arsenal are. Two different teams, how they go about it, two different defences. But I think Arsenal have to be really careful here in a sense that if there is the Atleti on the front foot that we see now and again, and they can get Griezmann into very good positions, and Zubimendi, Rice, they're not alive and alert to it, and all of a sudden you've got him getting turned, and there's been few players in that position, that certain number 10 position in the last two or three months that have been in better form.

41:20And they took Barcelona apart in the first half of that game. Now, that is unlikely with Arsenal defence, but not impossible. But it kind of depends what mood Atleti are in, because we have seen that. And so I think there has to be some trepidation from Arsenal that this can be Atleti. This can be a dangerous side when it wants to be. But it also isn't the old, stout, solid defensive Atleti that it used to be. They can equally be pretty weak at the back. Over the last 14 years that Diego Simeone referenced in the press conference, we have thought of Atletico Madrid as grinding, fighting, pushing, shoving, fouling, doing whatever was necessary to win matches.

42:07That sounds a lot like the current version of Arsenal. Arsenal are looking more like old school Atletico Madrid than Atletico Madrid themselves. And that's why I think it's a draw tomorrow and eventually Arsenal win it because Arsenal can be better right now, currently at being Atletico Madrid or the old version of Atletico Madrid. It won't be pretty. I don't know that I'm going to sell it to you, Dan. I don't think this game sells itself. All I'm going to say is that there will be a lot of grinding, a lot of pushing, a lot of shoving, a lot of fouling, and that's going to come mostly from Arsenal, and surprisingly, not Atletico Madrid.

42:47When we came in the studio just before we came on air, Robbo was wondering one of three moods that I was in today. Oh, yes. I don't know why he was doing that. It was Golf Club Craig, Wembley Craig, or Connecticut. See, I don't know. Golf club Craig is great. I don't know. You should have seen him at Wembley, Craig. Oh, my God. Better than golf club Craig? It was on the par. Oh, wow. Do you like that? On the par? Yeah, yeah. In what sense? Well, you're very friendly, chatty, gregecious, happy. Pretty much opposite. Standard. However, this is a prior warning. Yes, yeah. Tomorrow's game could change things greatly.

43:25Well, I could take it down. I didn't know there was a D option. I mean, from the start. The good thing is we've set the bar so low that if anything good happens, we'll be impressed and surprised. And if it doesn't, we'll check your local lessons for Thursday. And we'll be back, of course, on the next edition of the show. Evan Cohen here. Game day brings the excitement. Your stay should feel just as memorable. With Marriott Bonvoy, official hotel partner of the NCAA and U.S. soccer, you're connected to a portfolio of brands designed for how you travel. Some offer complimentary breakfast. Others give you room to spread out, space to stay productive, or extended stay comforts.

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44:49Fable W was recorded today. It's available now on ESPN. Plus you can check that out. That is it. That brings us to the end of today's show. Thank you very much for watching. Can't wait till tomorrow. What you got plans in the morning? Yes. What are you doing? I've got a little. Feel sure to stay tuned. Robert and Frank are with us to answer your questions on Extra Time, which is coming up next.

45:18Welcome in to the latest edition of Extra Time. Despite the grumps that we have on today's panel everyone agreed that it was a fantastic match between PSG and Bayern Munich. Put a name on that, who are the Grumps? Craig Burley, Stuart Robson. Okay, okay. Bad defending or amazing attacking football, Frank? Great attacking of course. I wouldn't say poor defending, it was so difficult again to defend against all those talented players that the defenders, they tried their best and it was impossible to cope with those. But you know what? I enjoyed the game, but I didn't talk about the penalties where I think both penalties were good.

46:01There's a question coming up about penalties and they've snuck in here. So don't worry. Let's talk about the officials. I disagree with that. I told you. That he was going to do it. Well, we knew it was coming. Every time he sends a text message to any producer. Yeah, it's frankly complaining about it. It must be an automatic electric shock. Yeah, we will talk about that in a minute, I promise. If you're a defender in the Bayern PSG match, what would be your takeaway from today's match? And how do you keep your confidence up for the second leg, Robbo? You'd like to make better decisions, you'd like to have a bit more cover.

46:42You know, if you think about the Karatskalija goal, the first one, when he gets played in behind. Stanisic sort of got back into a good position then the second the first centre-half doesn't come out which I think was over Meccano to get a block in so you need to double up on occasions against the wide players and defend better as a team but you don't really want to see that happen do you? You want to see the game played as it was with great attacking qualities. The thing is it's against both of this team's personalities to put numbers behind the ball. It's not who they are. And so to try to be something that you're not at this stage of the competition, it goes against what makes you a good team to begin with.

47:24So what could help some of these defenders? Well, you put a lot more numbers around the ball and a lot numbers behind the ball, but that limits you from being able to get out in the attack and explore the abilities that you have in wide areas that you have down the middle. You have all this attacking talent, then play to your strength and both of the teams play to their strengths very well today. Criac, Criac, whoever that is. Criac. Why does the Highline attack first style of football where the idea is simply to outscore your opponents, work so well for Bayern and PSG but often seems less effective for Barcelona?

48:00They don't play the same. Right. No, they play. doesn't work as well for who? Barcelona. PSG. Barcelona. Yeah. PSG and Bayern, they're saying it works in the high level. No, they don't play. They squeeze the game, but they still give themselves a little bit of depth when they have to. The centre-halves give themselves a little bit of depth when they need to, but Barcelona don't. Right? Theirs is just, they're coming up, come hell or high water. They're coming up, they're squeezing it. You very rarely see Barcelona, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen them, where the defenders are coming up, realise there's absolutely no pressure on the ball and there's a runner and one of them drops off.

48:46They just keep coming. That's what they do. So they want to squeeze the game that way, and that allows them to get pressure higher up the field, to win the ball back higher up, but it leaves a lot of space to be exposed. Those two teams don't. If you watched both centre-halves today on each side, at times when the full-backs were pushed on, they dropped off a little bit and gave themselves some depth so it's it's it's not even close to being the same okay frank here we go ready what did you all think of the officiating today was that a penalty kick on davies rule book says otherwise why is that why is the rule book well the rule books that's somebody that's probably thinking because it's sorry frank it came off the hip yes which is not in the laws of the game anymore right frank yeah it's not it's Not anymore, but I think we are talking about the natural position of the player.

49:39And I think he was in a natural position. That's absolutely normal to have your arms on the side and not your arms behind your back, which is a complete abnormal positioning. So I think it shouldn't have been a penalty. You later said it was abnormal, Frank. But on the first... Well, that was a UEFA referee. That was abnormal. No, that's, yeah, but is it normal to have your hands, your arms behind your back when you play football? No, it's not a normal position. So you can discuss whatever you want. But so for me, in my opinion, as Ali would say, it's 100 % no penalty. Right. But on the first penalty on Luis Diaz, I want to talk about it as well.

50:19I think, and Ali alluded it, finding an excuse to Luis Diaz saying that he was driving the ball. is why he tackled Paco. Because that's what it is. He tackled Paco. We can, I don't know if you're going to see it because it's not the same show. No, we haven't the right to. The one, the one who started the contact, he initiated the contract was with Diaz, tackling Paco. I'm sorry. So, therefore, no penalty as well. Robert, do you agree with Frank that it shouldn't have been a penalty? No, I don't agree with Frank entirely, but I understand why he's saying it. because Luis Dier wasn't going towards the ball.

50:59He actually put his foot across the challenge. So you can either say he was shielding the ball or he was tackling. That's a subjective view. On this occasion, I would have given a penalty. It's a bit like the one in the previous game against PSG, I think it was McAllister, when McAllister tried to put his foot across and I think it was Pacho who tried to make the challenge again. It was exactly the same sort of situation, but on that occasion, the penalty wasn't given because Pacho didn't go to ground. The difference was today, he slid in. And that's what the referee and the VAR saw. And they think he makes the contact.

51:31So you said UEFA said it was none. Who is UEFA? Alexander Seferin? I don't know. He's a referee. Head of UEFA. I've been sent a quote from the UEFA officials. What do they know? I don't know. Don't blame the message. I hate referees in this situation. I just want to talk about a brilliant game. There's a shock that a UEFA representative, probably somebody who's never even played the game, never even, never mind refereed the game, putting out some sort of quote about natural positions. I mean, I think it was very harsh, to be honest. Can I just say, very quickly, when Frank is talking about the arms behind your body, it's hard enough to defend players like Due, Cabrasquilla, Dembele, whoever, yes, whoever, pick a player from either team in the attacking half.

52:17It's hard enough to defend against these players when you're actually running at full speed and you're utilizing the momentum of your arms. This is basic running motion. Sure. When you now go and do this, how do you get out of in and out of your breaks quickly? You can't. You can't. It slows you down as a defender. But now defenders are forced to be in this sort of position because of how gray area this handball rule and law has become. Ali alluded to this actually in the show. For those saying PSG against Bayern should be the final, isn't actually better as a two-legged semi-final tie as it is, especially knowing how tight and tense most finals tend to be.

52:56Thoughts? Well, yes, but that could be slightly negated by the 180 minutes we're going to watch from the teams playing tomorrow. You've got a couple of questions on that. Frank, as exhilarating as today's match was, are you afraid tomorrow will be the polar opposite? Yes, I am. and because of the coach's mindset, it will be different. I think they're more thinking about how to defend well, where the two teams that we saw today were thinking about attacking and only attacking. And therefore, yes, it's going to be a different game. It can be interesting if you love football and if you love tactics.

53:39But yes, in terms of goals, in terms of talent, in terms of pace, it can be very boring. Can I just give a shout out to our late friend Paul Mariner? Yes. When he did the New England Revolution games, when the games were boring as they possibly could be, he would say, it's a fascinating tactical battle. No, Maris. Maris didn't believe that. He just knew he wanted to get paid. Okay, final question. Would Atletico Madrid against Arsenal be capable of a 5-4 scoreline over five legs? I think that sums it up quite nicely. Thank you very much. Thank you, Robbo. Thank you, Frank. We'll be back tomorrow, of course, to reflect on Arsenal against Atleti.

54:21As I say, we've set the bar so low. Anything half decent. Any other games on tomorrow? Any football league games we could watch? Maybe. We saw him come, I don't know, the Saudi league. Do you watch it at home then? Come in later? Come in, but late. No, watch the game and then drive in. We'd have to be late for the show. Yes, we can be late for the show. That's fine. Well, that's the boss.

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