Arsenal, Liverpool Crash Out of FA Cup

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0:34Welcome in to the latest edition of ESPN FC. I'm Dan Thomas, joined by Shaka Hislop and Stevie Nicker. We'll kick things off in the FA Cup. After all the drama yesterday, it will continue today with Leeds defeating West Ham on penalties. Leeds were 2-0 up going into injury time. Two goals for West Ham, though, late on would force extra time. But in the end, it's the visitors who book a place in the semi-final draw. And we learnt that they will face Chelsea elsewhere. It will be Manchester City against Southampton. Stevie, you weren't here yesterday. Of course, the big story was Arsenal losing to Southampton.

1:11We watched your boys humiliated by Manchester City. We thought that would be the headline. But no, in the end, it was Arsenal crashing out of the FA Cup. How much of a concern is this? I think from a mental standpoint, this is a concern. Because to lose two big games in such a short space of time, when you're going from talking about the quadruple, and it's been cut in half in the space of two games, then absolutely, you should be worried. I mean, the one thing I would say about this is that he's made nine changes to his first team. Now, you're playing against a side in Southampton who are on an incredible run, they're 100 % going to be at least in the playoffs, and they could possibly be in the Premier League next season.

2:00So you're playing basically your reserve team against a team that could be in the Premier League next year. So it shouldn't be that huge a surprise that you get beat. But at the end of the day, because it follows on from last week where they lost the cup final, this is a huge challenge from the mental side of the game that particularly Mikel Arteta has to erase from his players' mind. Frank, do you agree mentally this is a bit of a blow to Arsenal's end of season? It is. It is because when you are Arsenal, you are one of the best teams in the world. It may be the best team in the world. You have to show, even with different players, different individuals, you have to show your strength and you have to win against Southampton.

2:43And that's kind of a shame. You know, I imagine, you know, the time that I was playing against Arsenal, with the Vieira, Petit, Jan Wright, and so many others, Adams, it would have never happened. Mentally, they were too strong. They were finishing all the works. And you can see that everybody is very fragile. Coaches-wise, because they don't make the right choices, but the players on the field, they don't do the job. They're getting very shaky because we are touching and we are going to the end of the season. And you can feel that they're not ready mentally. They have to be stronger for sure.

3:23This is ridiculous, Alex. And then nine points clear at the top of the table. City, granted, have a game in hand. They're not going to muck this up. Surely not. Surely not. But there is an ounce of me that thinks maybe, just maybe, Nedim, they could lose it all. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. What makes you say that? Just because the gap at the top of the table right now is pretty significant. They play each other. They do play each other, but Arsenal have also played a game more. So in terms of the mistakes and stuff that they could have, I think that could be significant. And that game against Man City in a couple of weeks' time, that's going to be obviously a huge game regardless anyway.

3:57But City have to win their game against Chelsea next week, and I think Arsenal have to win their game as well. But these last two results, they've been poor. Some of their recent performances have also been poor. They have. but the fact is they're so close to getting across the line in the Premier League they are really really close I think someone inside that football club it's Mikel Arteta I'm looking to someone has to find a little bit of calm it's all chaos and he's not calm is he ever managed no it's all chaos he's very emotional and you can see it's contagious but it seems to be at Arsenal whether it's their fan base whether they're desperate to go over the line which is understandable but someone's got to find a little bit of calm you lose the cup final last week and it's a bit chaotic usually against Southampton he brings all the players back from England duty and all around the world to try and get them back because the run-ins, the run-in and it's super important but it feels like they're dipping in, they're dipping for the line, it's like calm down, you're in a great position.

4:46Do you think it's because they've come so close before and lost it, it's not like they can say oh we've been there, we've done it, we've won it before. And 10 days ago the quadruple was on which is, it's never been done, it's difficult, it's ridiculously hard but this is where internally someone at their club needs to sit them all down and go right lads, we're in a fantastic position yes we've had two bad results lost the cup final lost against southampton but you're in the champions league still in nine points clear in the premier league what a position to be in go and win the double go and do it but find some calm from somewhere i think i think they'll be fine i think what we're talking about that game yesterday they did make the changes and they were disappointed on the day i just spoke himself after the game about the mistakes that they were making it's just a case for me whether this is an arsenal side that continues to make mistakes throughout the season whether this is a blip i see it's a blip i think a game against Manchester City is playing in a cup final.

5:31People can have bad days. But even the form of the Premier League and they've won a couple of games. It was scratchy. OK, we can talk about... I think that's a fair point to make. But then why are Man City nine points behind? How have City been? Well, that's the debate. Have City got it in them to chase them down and be flawless? I think City have the ability to win every game in two and a half of the season. But now we're in a position to where that's not going to be enough if Arsenal do what they need to do. And I still trust them and I think Arteta trusts these players to be able to do that as well.

5:56What about the 11 players that came back during the international break? What did you make of that? I didn't like the look of it. I mean, listen, you're looking from the outside in and you have to feel as though they were genuine because you can't second guess a club like Arsenal or individuals when you're leaving your respective countries to come back that little bit early. So you've got to give them that little bit of understanding, if you like. It looks a little bit weird that there were so many of them. One, two, three, four, you can accept. Eleven seems a bit excessive. That's what I mean about being too desperate.

6:24Being too desperate to get over the line and bring your players back and win the competition. and it's just like calm down guys you're in a brilliant position like relax focus again yes or no do arsene win the league yes what are you saying he doesn't want to say he doesn't want to say but i think we know what that means i thought your mic had gone for a sec that's that's the most thing i'm not sure that's the most sense that nadam's made in a very long time let's be honest rich coming from you down thomas alex you're a proper journalist you have proper sources What's going on in Merseyside? Stevie said yesterday he's starting to really have his doubts about Arnazla.

7:01And this is a man who's scared to say anything before the Liverpool Echo picks it up and sticks it on the front page. Are you hearing that there's as much doubt amongst the fan base as there is amongst the pundits? Yeah, it was so disappointing yesterday, wasn't it? The manner of the defeat as well. And that came off the back of their 10th Premier League defeat of the season as well. Something that never happened under Jurgen Klopp. And something that was really alarming for me, I think, because he normally has such an assured presence, was Virgil van Dijk when he spoke to me after the game because he seemed really weary.

7:33No energy, the way he spoke, the tone of his voice. It was worrying if you were a Liverpool fan. I've always been worrying all season. It's been worrying for quite a while because I think Stevie touched on it the other day. It's like you're watching Liverpool now and you're hoping that they can win a game. You're not expecting it and you're hoping and you're probably looking at games thinking, well, there's every chance you lose that one. there's every chance you lose against Man City Fulham's the next game in the Premier League that has to be a win you know Chelsea have got Man City in their next game so there's chances for Liverpool but we've been saying this for quite a while and every performance out there churning out I can't lean on Liverpool finishing in the top five I can't they've got no chance of winning the Champions League people keep saying oh they can win the Champions League it could still be a heroic season I do not see that I do not see them turning over PSG the world everyone over here saying it's a cup competition I don't see it happening it cannot happen they don't turn over PSG no chance you know I think the sort of sums up I don't know what he's talking about but I think the sums up is like you think about how often you've seen Virgil van Dijk speak after games this season and it's always the guy being sent out when it's been a tough result he's said things so many times and I think as you said yesterday with how he's speaking he's probably tired of doing that you mentioned the 10 league defeats you've seen the cup issues both in the FA Cup and in the league cup as well you've seen some disappointing results at times say Champions League and so on like the loss to Galatasaray right these are things where he's having to be the firefighter do it once or twice you can have a great season if he's doing it this many times it's a problem that was the first game as well since Mohamed Salah announced he would be leaving the club so what does Arna Slott do now with Mo Salah looking at the way he played yesterday well the way he's played all season really does he decide to now bench him he doesn't have to keep him happy he doesn't have to and the fact that Alexander Isak is fit or reportedly fit um depending if he's got 45 in the PSG game or an I see how far you can go.

9:22I think it's very tricky. I think it's getting to a point now where there's so many problems with Liverpool. The players that got sold, they haven't been replaced with the same quality. There's a lot of new players. I think Arnaz Slott's been left short in terms of the squad. Liverpool's bench last season was extremely strong. Now it's a few kids in Chiesa who's half fit. I think we've seen the best of Alisson. I think we've seen the best, maybe of Van Dijk, definitely the best of Salah. Maybe the best of McAllister. arguably Gakpo at the same time. So it's an incredible job that he's got to do.

9:56I personally don't think he'll be in charge at the start of next season. Doomsday? No, I think he'll get, well, come on, it's obvious. No, but you're talking about Gakpo seeing the best of him and so on. I don't think so. Well, that may be one then, but the rest? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Well, you don't think we've seen the best of Salah? No. You haven't seen the best of Unzal? I'm with you on Salah. The best of Alisson? The 33 and 34-year-old. Absolutely fine, yeah. But some of the other people you mentioned, I'm not so sure. I don't think Slott will be in charge at the start of next season.

10:20What do you think? Do you agree in the studio? Will Arna Slott be in charge at the start of next season? Don is saying no. Who knows? No one's listening to Don. Frank, I want you to take me through some of the defensive errors that we saw in that game. Obviously, Virgil van Dijk coming out afterwards saying he was disappointed. But once again, focus is on that Liverpool defence and its frailties.

10:42Yes, and he should be the first offended by what he did himself. you know. Well, on those examples, that one, I think it's a penalty because of the right side, the right left, oh sorry, the right leg of Scherke doesn't touch the players, but it touches after. O 'Reilly with Van Dijk, yes, it's a clear penalty, nothing can complain about that one. And after, it's only the following. That one, well, you play against the Cyborg, the guy is strong, and it's hard to fight, Konatou tried, but credit to the striker. But that one, Van Dijk knows and is with Semeno, doesn't follow him, just look at the ball, don't look what's going on behind him, and of course it hasn't been helped by Gerke.

11:30Same story with Slobodzai on that one, he's with O 'Reilly, doesn't sprint, let him go, and O 'Reilly receives the ball and scores. That's mentally, they gave up, They're not there anymore. So they can complain about the game and Van Dijk can do so as a skipper. But they don't do the job anymore. They don't see what they have to do, what they have to be strict and focus on. They're not there. They're not fighting for their colours and their clubs at the level we are expecting them to do so. One last thing, Frank. And obviously you've got a good view on this because he gave you your shirt. He gave him his shirt at the Community Shield, I seem to remember.

12:11Ekertike and Cherky without shirt swap. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question. That's all right. Did they swap the shirt? Oh, okay. You didn't see it, Frank. Don't worry. Our producer's done a terrible job again. Shaka, what did you make of it? Okay. Not an awful lot, I'll be honest with you. These are two players who were with the France national team. There's this international window just days ago. Teammates, one beaten, one triumphant. should swap. Stevie wasn't happy about it. I'm not at all surprised. It's one of those, there are certain unwritten rules that we all know as professionals you do and you don't do.

12:51And that is absolutely the classic. A, you don't swap a shirt on the field. You wait till you go, you're out in the back of the stadium, whatever it is. You're in the lounge after the game. Yeah. But to actually do it while the game's going on, it's just madness. And then Cherky, like an idiot, is putting it on, sitting on the bench. I mean, eventually somebody told them to get it off and don't be so stupid. But, I mean, you've got to wonder where players' heads are when they're doing this sort of thing during a game. Good thing for you, Don. I wasn't aware of that. Go on, go on. You weren't aware of it, Frank, no?

13:26I wasn't aware of that. That's why I'm very sorry I didn't see that. No, that's OK. It shouldn't be done. I agree with Stevie and Xhaka. It shouldn't be done. I mean, you have to respect your colours. You keep your shirt. You swap the shirt after the game, no problem, no issues. And the worst, yeah, Shecky wearing it, being on the bench. That's the worst of the worst. The guys, they love each other, but just wait a little bit. You see, I don't see it as that egregious. And from a Shecky perspective, I understand. Putting on somebody else's shirt is not done. But I strongly suspect there is not a single Manchester City fan really that bothered about it.

14:08You just crushed Liverpool. I'm sure they're not because they won 4-0. That's my point. And that's my point. So, Cherky... What about the other side? Right, right. You think Liverpool fans are over? And you think Cherky has a responsibility to Liverpool fans in putting on his shirt or not? He doesn't. Well, he's putting on his shirt. The opposition's shirt. The enemy's shirt. So, Eketike is your issue here. But we're talking about Cherky putting on his shirt right now. Actually, both of them are my issue. Eketiki shouldn't be giving me shut when he did. But Cherki, putting it on, come on. If you had a Man City fan sat here complaining about it, you couldn't complain to him.

14:52I mean, it's disrespectful. It's a complete and utter no-no. There is no situation that you're going to convince me that that is okay. Naidan, Cherki comes across as a bit of a clown. Would that be a fair statement? A joker. A joker? No, I disagree. Probably a joker. I disagree with the clown part. But what I would say, happening to be a Man City fan, Dan Thomas, is if I was on the bench with Ryan Schurkin and he's trying to put the shirt on, I'd be like, no, no, no. We don't do that here. And I think in reality as well. Someone did say that to him, I think. Yeah, that's why. That was the point.

15:27That was the point. That's what he was trying to do. I've got to say, he's killed Ekotika. He's killed Ekotika by putting the shirt on. It's disappointing. Just keep it under wraps. Think how much football we've all watched and that's something that we're seeing for the first time. You know, that shows how wild a moment it was and I'm sure for Shirky, he's trying to enjoy himself and so on but once upon a time, Liverpool City was a big rivalry. Like, it might not be a historical one but it's the last few years. Nobody's doing that. You don't wear the opposition's colours on your bench at all regardless of whatever the result is, in my opinion.

15:54Thank you very much. That's what Ugo Eketike did with his shirt. Does anyone want Don's shirt? I'm guessing no. He's on me, Tony. He's on me. He's on me. There's lots of jealousy coming from Dan Thomas today. Much appreciated, guys. Thank you so much for your work over the weekend. Fantastic few games, of course, in the FA Cup. Shaka was in LA. Now he's here with us, obviously. You can check him out on Extra Time, which is out over on YouTube. A SoFi personal loan is here to help you achieve something once thought impossible. Overcoming high-interest credit card debt. Walk the tightrope of your finances with one low fixed rate monthly payment, no fees required, and as soon as the same day funding.

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18:49OK. Barcelona won yesterday, then they buy two goals to one. A big talking point in the game was Gerard Martin getting a red card for this challenge, it then being overturned. Quick, yes or no, Shaq? That absolutely is a red card. Stevie? No, it's not. And this is a debate, of course, that has raged over the last 24 hours. Not surprised we have seen differing views from both managers. Let's start off with Hansi Flick. For me, he wanted to clear the ball, so this is what I saw. For me, the first one I think was no foul. But at the end, I think he hit him. It's a decision and there was. You know, he interacted and this was, for us, of course, great.

19:38And I think also it was not a red card. I was told about and I actually saw the incident during the Betis-Rio match. The CTA later stated that it should have resulted in a sending off. There isn't much to discuss. The truth is the play is clear cut. He arrives late, taps on the foot, right across the entire ankle. And well, we just have to hope that the CTA reviews it thoroughly this week so that in future match days, whether a similar situation arises in our favour or against us, it has made absolutely clear exactly what constitutes a fault. I haven't been wrong. They simply made a mistake. Just as we coaches make mistakes, and just as players make mistakes, it's exactly what they said the other day.

20:20Five matches ago, in fact, the Betis Rayo incident involved the exact same play, the exact same situation. During the week, they stated that when a challenge comes in over the top of the foot and results in a stomp, is that true or not? Did you guys see it or didn't you? Ah, so you did see it then. Come on, go ahead. it's no big deal just say yes if you saw it. Okay let's take you through the incident that he's referring to in the Betis against Raya Valle Iacano game. Obviously we heard there that the referees association said this should have been a red card. So this is the standard in which Simeone is working on when it comes to the decision that he felt it should have been substantiated and it should have been kept as a red card.

21:04Alex Kirkland joined. Alex if you don't mind I'm gonna go to the boys first because I just want to kind of get us through a poll as to exactly where they stand on this. Frank I want to start with you. Well you know what's going on after kicking the ball has to be taken into account. If you break a leg, you break an ankle or knee because you carried on like it happened you know you created damages so for me it's a clear red card. It doesn't matter if you touch the ball before and how you touch it, you are putting the opponent into danger. Therefore, for me, it's a straight red card. Stephen? See, this is really subjective, right?

21:44My opinion is it's not a red card at all. And I don't know what Martin's supposed to do. Martin gets there fractionally before the opposition. And because he's aggressive, you're saying he should be punished. What's he supposed to do? He gets here first just before his opponent. He tries to clear the ball. How is he supposed to not make contact? Surely the fact that he gets here first. Now, again, you can look at that and say that looks bad. But he hasn't gone over the top of the ball. He hasn't missed the ball. He hasn't just caught the attacker. He's cleared the ball and his momentum has carried him through.

22:24Now, please, somebody explain to me. When you aggressively clear the ball, how do you not carry through? And how, when you do carry through, if you make contact with a guy who's late, by the way, so you're going to punish the guy who got there first, and you're going to reward the guy who's late. Please explain to me what he's supposed to do, Frankie. Stevie, I'm very sorry. Yes, he cannot do anything. It's accidental, but it is what it is. Remember, Griezmann, some years ago, getting the ball from above him, not seeing the defender coming, putting his foot into the player's head. He's been sent off.

23:06Yeah, he didn't do anything. It was just playing the ball. But that's the effect or the side effect or whatever. No, it's the result of your action. It doesn't matter. You are almost breaking an ankle. So because of your too much aggressiveness, you have to be sanctioned. I'm sorry, but that's even the rule. And that's even what you have to do. can I just could you think about what you just said there too much aggressiveness we sit here week after week complaining that you can't make a challenge anymore are we going to sit here now and say well you have to you have to be careful how aggressive you are because you can't follow through at all and if you follow through regardless of whether the guy who's late has put himself in a bad spot you're going to get punished for it no sorry Shaka I thought it was a clear red no from the time I saw it I thought I was a clear red.

23:57I didn't realize there was a debate to this. I thought Jairn Martin gets here, he plays the ball, yes, but the follow-through is dangerous. I thought the follow-through was dangerous. As he plays the ball, follows through, studs up, into the shin, I see that as a red card all day, every day. Let's bring Alex Kirkland in. I imagine it's very reasonable, the reaction from both Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid media, Alex. yeah absolutely fuming it was interesting actually I was sat in that Diego Simeone press conference and he'd clearly been briefed by his media team before he came and spoke to us I think he'd been shown the clip of that Betis Raio challenge a few weeks ago and said look talk about this because he was very keen to bring it up multiple times as you heard in that presser and actually a few times recently you saw it in the clip there this sort of call in response with the journalist asking us to sort of let him know that we'd also seen it and we agreed with him and everyone just sort of stays quiet it's a bit awkward and you feel like you're sort of a kid in class or something um but yeah i'd let you not happy at all they want explanations from the from the cta from the referees committee we may well get that this week in the latest weekly review because that's the big novelty we're getting this season every week in spain is the cta look back at some of the controversial incidents from the weekend and say was this right was this wrong that's how we know that in their opinion the bettis rio incident should have been a red card when it wasn't on the field the other big thing i think the other controversy that's being talked about here is the fact that we've heard the audio, because the audio gets released, of course, of the conversation between the on-field referee and the VAR as he's looking at it on the monitor.

25:31And in that audio, you could hear the VAR saying to the ref, in my opinion, you know, this shouldn't be a wreck. And it's been pointed out that it's not really down to the VAR to give his opinion. He highlights the issue for the on-field referee, the on-field referee comes and looks at it, and the on-field referee makes the decision. The opinion of the VAR shouldn't really come into it. So that's been controversial as well. and yes, of course, there's also inevitably the Real Madrid because the feeling is that this has been a huge game, a huge weekend, a huge swing in the title race and if this moment wasn't pivoted, it's certainly played a big part Can I just say in my opinion, the difference those two incidents they're trying to compare, I think are completely different Martin does not leave his feet he's pretty straight up prone he's just being strong the betters one the defender has left his foot, he's left his feet and that's in my opinion why it would have been a red.

26:27He's left his feet and he's carried through with his studs up. That's the difference between the two challenges for me. That one, yes. The Gerard Martin one, I don't see how Martin can do anything else. All he's doing, in my opinion again, is clearing the ball and his momentum, yes, has taken him through but it's not egregious to me. Alex, you look at it away from that incident, as you say, Barcelona can win every game now and they're champions. Yeah, it feels like a really significant weekend. It feels like Real Madrid once again have kind of blown it. We've seen it a few times. Points dropped in games they shouldn't be dropping.

27:04You know, with disrespect to Mallorca, we've seen it before with Osasuna and Getafe. Every time you kind of start to believe in this Real Madrid team and in what Arbolov is doing, they kind of trip themselves up and fall over. and it's happened again this weekend after they have been on a really good run. You've seen it knocking out City in the Champions League and winning their derby and putting some good results together. They draw points away at Mallorca. And I mean, it wouldn't surprise you at all if they then go and, you know, beat Bayern in the Champions League because we've seen that so many times from Railroad Trip.