Chelsea Bring the Boom!

0:04Welcome in to the latest edition of ESPNFC. I'm Dan Thomas joined by Xhaka Hirsop and Stevie Nicole. Later on in the show, Luis and Robert will be here to look ahead to Barca against Atleti in La Liga. But we'll kick things off by reflecting on what happened in the top-of-the-table clash yesterday in the Premier League, of course. 1-1 between Chelsea and Arsenal, but it was the manner of the game, the feistiness of it. It certainly dominates the headlines, socket to him. Enzo sees red, Blue sees red over cards. There are seven yellow cards, of course in total 25 fouls between the two of them was always like a south american feel to this tie chelsea uh one though arsler one is how it finishes you welcome in mario malchia mario was at the game uh mario when did you know that this was going to be a feisty affair friday as soon as a look they kicked off from the first minute it was already heated you know it was like it's kicked off already it was the funny part was prior to the game kicked off.

1:04I bumped into Reece James in the tunnel. So he comes over, and the way I could see the stare in his eyes already that he was ready, he greeted me, he went back into the dressing room, and I knew, okay, let's see what's going to happen. They come out. Wow. They were ready. They were ready to I felt like, okay, the red card, of course, they implemented a little bit more into the team, I think. And the way he played the game was like how we experienced, you know, all the guys sitting there experienced a proper derby. Like, you really go at it and you show, like, as a captain, you've got to set the tone and lead the team.

1:38And I think he did that from the first minute. Exactly. The tone was set really early. Mario, what's it like to be involved in those sort of ties? When do you know as a player, you think, oh, OK, we've got a proper fight here today? Yeah, because, you know, like, from the get-go, like, you see the situation with Kukurela. He was really tied to Saka. I think how the game started, both wingers on both teams were isolated. No one allowed him to get on the ball and you saw Kaiseido. He kicked off really well, you understand? Because he was also very aggressive, but a little bit too much. And when he, the funny part was when this red card happened, the funny part was when I looked at him when he went down, it was kind of a little bit inviting.

2:21But away from that, you know, there were a lot of yellow cards, a lot of fouls, but it's also the game needs that. Why do I say the game needs that? It's not that I want a game that people start kicking each other, but I like passion. When passion is on the field, I think you see that both teams want to win the game. And I think regardless if you had a red card, Chelsea still tried to win the game. And that was really impressive for me. There was talk, Stevie, that maybe Arsenal fell into Chelsea's trap a little bit. And then they started to fight fire with firing instead of just sticking to their game.

2:53Is that a fair criticism? No, not at all. I don't go with that whatsoever. Zero. I mean, what are you supposed to do when somebody's throwing the flames at you? You're supposed to just run away? Right. No, you've got to stand up for yourself. And that's what I was... So is that what you did when Liverpool was so dominant back in the day? Absolutely. But how much does that not break up your flow a little bit? In the fact you're more interested in fighting than football? No, because you've got to win the fight, Foss. Once you win the fight, then you can play your football. Everybody tries to do it the other way around.

3:23But if you've got a team like Chelsea who are not going to stand by and let you play your football and they're going to throw things at you, then you have to stand up and be strong. And that's what it was. And Kaysedo was the only one that really stepped over the mark. Okay. Everybody else stood up and took the punches, basically. And as a player, you can't ask or accept anything other than that. I mean, it's one of the things I miss most about playing. The physical contact. Kicking people. No, I wouldn't put it that way. Just the physical contact. Sometimes you come out the injured one, but if you're smart, the majority of the time, you're the one that comes out on top.

4:05So what was it about it? Early on in the game, you know it's going to be the sort of tie for 90 minutes, and that would get you going? Well, yeah. Well, you know it's coming for a period of time. Right. Because when I was watching the game, just before the red card, I'm thinking, who's going to flag first? OK. Because the pace of the game was ferocious. They tend to say it was great. everybody's getting smashed in as you said it was magic to watch but I did wonder who was gonna calm down or or cool down or run out of steam fast in the end you know the game sort of although it stayed intense it did sort of cool down a little after the red card so that took care of that it was intense something is a good I thought it was an outstanding game to watch and credit to Chelsea not just for the job they did with ten men I thought they dictated the pace to your point that the game certainly would start with.

4:58And Arsenal had to match it. I'm fully with Stevie. You have to match. You have to win the fight before you can settle down and play the football. Now, there's one thing where a team lower down the table playing at that tempo. If they don't have the quality, if they don't have the understanding of how to press, it's easy to pass to a team playing at tempo without any real structure. Chelsea are not. Chelsea, a lot of people are looking at the Sunderland performance against Arsenal and pointing to that as an example as to how to get the better of Arsenal. And with the greatest respect to Chelsea, you could see that, well, they were willing to take that physical step to Arsenal, but they just have far more quality than Sunderland.

5:37So they were able to play the football that you saw. They were able to press as high up, be as physical as they were, and be rewarded for it, even with 10 men in the park. I think the most amazing thing about the Chelsea performance for me is, If you'd asked me who is easily Chelsea's most important player in the build-up to this game, I'd have said Moses Caicedo, no question. Yet he's off after, what, 29 minutes. And there is no drop of quality, no drop of intensity from Chelsea with 10 men. And I think that speaks a lot to, one, the job that Rich James did in midfield. but two, more to the point, the other ten on the park, how they organised, they changed at half-time.

6:21I thought seeing Chelsea manage, who I still believe are easily the best team in the league, in the way that they did with ten men, was something to witness. You think back to, well, about this time last season, Mario, we were talking about Chelsea doing well, top of the table, Maresca came out and said, wait, we are not title contenders. has that narrative changed now 12 months on? No, because I said it to myself. I said this was not the season that I would look at him being title contenders. Why? Because of all the instability that they went through. So after the game, I spoke to him. This was one of the questions that I asked him.

7:01I said, what is your goal? What do you want to achieve now? He said, look, the players are really well. I like my team. I like we are full of talents in the team. I was happy with the game that we played today and you saw it. I had a real belief because I asked him, I said, how could you go for a win when you are playing arguably against one of the best teams in your league and you still try to get your win? He goes, because I have real trust in those talents that I possess in my team. So he said, I knew we could win the game if it maybe got more to our side. He said, but we knew it was going to be tough.

7:36I'm not no disrespect to Arsenal, he said. But he said, but I knew we could win it. But then also he highlighted and he said, look, I don't want to say that we can go for the title because that is not fair. He said, but next season, I want to go for it. And then I said to him, yeah, you probably have to go for it. And he goes, yeah, we have to go for it next season. So this season doesn't see it like that, but you're still second in the league. And people are still going to watch you. Or now third, I mean, but still people are going to watch you and say to you, like look hey you're that high up why don't you go all the way and then Rhys James goes yeah we want to win everything but deep down we know how he was last season two when he was high up he kind of said that but he meant different in this way I have no doubt that he will say guys if we can catch it we'll take it what is up what's that all about you tell me is this is this mind games here last year and he said the same thing.

8:33If I'm a Chelsea fan, I don't want to hear it. If I'm a Chelsea player, I don't want to hear it. How about who gets to pick and choose what year they win the league? It's absolute nonsense. If you can produce... Stevie, you don't think he's going to say that in the team? In the team, he doesn't say it. Of course he has to. If you're Chelsea players and you perform the way that you did, right? Against Arsenal. That's what you're capable of. Why can't you try and play to that standard every time you get on the field? And if you do that, then you've got a chance of winning the league. So how about you be positive?

9:11And just make sure that everybody has got the same standard. Now, the manager and the coach, when you've got to come, is going to know better than anybody else what he thinks his players are capable of over a certain period of time. But that's all good and well. But how about you positively tell them, hey, if you do this every time you step on the field, we can win this league. If you think they're ready or not, I don't know. I have no doubt he's telling them, Stevie. He's telling them that. You know that, Stevie. We play the game. I actually don't, Mario. You have the same thing. I actually don't.

9:45I don't know that. No, but I'm saying like we had all coaches that sometimes said something else to the press, but in-house that said something totally different. And with him, I have that feeling. What he says to the press is different than what he says to the team because when he came out and he stood next to you, the way he was talking and the way he was acting, he didn't give me that feeling. You're the Chelsea boy. You're in the house. You're right about that, but I'm just telling you. You're in the house. Why would he not tell you? He knows you're part of the Chelsea family, basically. If he doesn't want to tell the press or anybody else that, that's fine.

10:20He was interviewing him, to be fair, wasn't he? He wasn't having a cup of tea. Yeah, the kettle was on. I don't know if he was interviewing him, but... Yeah, I don't believe that. No, the camera was on. I don't believe that. The camera was on. When the camera went off. Yeah. He's going, hey, we're going to win! That's the difference. The thing that got me going was when he said about, well, maybe next year. Yeah. And the first thing that came to mind was, hold on a second. You can't pick and choose when you win the Premier League. So why one tone to the press and one tone in theory to players, Shaq?

10:51Why not come out and get the Chelsea supporters behind you and instead of talking about next year, to talk about this year. Yeah, and listen to that. We've had to beat in Barcelona. We held Arsenal. You know, we're looking great. I have no problem with one, to your phrasing, one tone to the press, one tone to the players. Certainly right now, in November, going into early December. And it's still a six-point gap. I think everybody still would make Arsenal's favourites to win the title right now. But I also think that this game changes the feeling, if not the rhetoric around Chelsea. Because, as I said, coming into this game, I would have thought the one player Chelsea cannot do without is Moses Casero.

11:35And look what they performed. Now they have set their standard as to who they are, who they can be. And while six points right now feels like a lot, given how consistent Arsenal may be, if Chelsea continue to produce these kinds of performances, in the league at least, they are probably better positioned, given that 90 minutes we saw from them, to run Arsenal down than Manchester City. That's given that 90 minutes. Now they've got to continue. They've got to continue replicating that kind of form, that kind of performance. But even so, it's still a big ask. Right now, I have no issue with Mareska saying two different things to two different audiences, as long as what he's saying to the players is listen we can win this we just have to keep showing up as we did today and we can at the very least give them an almighty fright that game of course a big talking point in the premier league this weekend elsewhere liverpool won a game and they did so without mo salah in the starting 11.

12:40there are four games now stevie for liverpool between now and the african cup of nations do you play him at all in that period? Um I don't know but do you play him at all in that period? Do you play him the next game they play? I think that's more... Liverpool right now, I've got to play go game to game and the first one was West Ham at the weekend. And they won though? They had a better shape, everything was better, there was no drama. you have to play the next game exactly the same. So no Salah. So we've got Sandlin on Wednesday, no Salah. The result's the tier, Salah. The thing is, it shouldn't be about...

13:27If Anish Slott is thinking about how do I get Salah and the team, then he's in the wrong job. It's not a complicated question, though, is it? Does Salah start on Wednesday? No. Right, absolutely not. And then does he start against Leeds? It would depend on what happens. Against Sunderland. Inter, sorry. It depends. Against Sunderland. Sunderland's right. As I said, it's game to game. If they go out against Sunderland and are organised the same, defend as well, don't give the opposition any chances, you keep going. Right. They're not in a position to try and look after this one guy. Regardless of how good Salah's been for Liverpool, it's about the team.

14:07It's about the whole team and not any one guy. Steve, he says no. Don't play him until after the AFC Cup. That all depends on results. I never said that. I know, I know. Everybody knows that. I feel like that's where you're going. No, no. That's where it's going. Here's where I'm going with this. It depends on results. Liverpool at home to St-Lon, they're very capable of winning that, you would think. They win that. Then you use the same starting 11 against Leeds. You win that. maybe you make a rotation with Inter in the Champions League in midweek just so you keep the kind of same league team and some players get a rest.

14:49Listen, you've been struggling long enough, so maybe you want to rotate in midweek. But as long as Liverpool in the league keep winning with the team that he put out against West Ham, then there's absolutely no reason to change it. Marriott? No. No, I totally agree. You know, look, what the guy said. Sometimes you can think about the momentum of the team. If the team keeps winning, you understand, without Salah starting, look, will I bring him on? Yeah, if the game asks for it and I can bring him on and he can deliver the things, yeah, then it's it. And what Steve said, yeah, of course he's one of the greats at Liverpool, but it doesn't matter what situation they're in right now.

15:27They've got to win. They've got to make sure they bring the comfort back in that team. That team needs confidence. And the only way to do that is winning games. It's not going to be by taking care of people. You've got to play to win all the time.

16:07trained well the last couple of days and in general training well. I think also that, I think we talked about before, it's not the first time a player is stepping into the Premier League and that just need a little bit of adaptation to hit the ground running and then that's one thing in the physical league, but also to play games every third or fourth day. And then in a team that's maybe not top in sync, so how can we help each other? That's part of the process. I don't know where to start on this, Mario. You spend a lot of money on a player, and Xavi Simons, of course, know well, and yet you're still waiting for him to adapt to the Premier League.

16:49It is December. Yeah, I know. We talked about it. I saw an interview of him too. You could feel that he knew that people are watching him like that. And I think the pressure is a little bit higher. He said, look, I'm playing in the German league, and I know what the physical aspect is of the game. But I understand that from him. But the German league is not the same pace as the English league. And definitely not. The Holland league, we cannot compare, because that's definitely not even the German league. And that he has to understand, because, you know,

17:27Eke Tike came out, and he said, yeah, he came out, and he said, like, when I get the ball, I normally, when I was in Germany, I had a lot of time on the ball. Now, when I get the ball, I have no time at all. So if someone like that says it, then you also know what kind of level the speed difference is, let's say like that. Because it's still, you know, you still have a Bayern that does great. And so that's why. But for him, for Salvi Siemens, to do the things that I know he's good at, like dribbling, taking people on, taking the assist, the passing, and scoring goals, and arriving, and being dangerous, The only way to do that for him is pick up with the rhythm that English is asking you.

18:08If he's not going to do that, he's always going to be the second guy arriving later, holding the ball too long instead of letting it go. We highlighted him before, you understand, in the sense of like, sometimes he holds on to the ball too long. And in England, you know, people love that. When they know you hold on to it too long, especially the ones that want to set the tone, They will tackle you so hard that they'll look at you and go like, OK, now you know. Let it go. Mario, is it harsh to say this is why he's ended up at Spurs? Because a bigger team sort of looked at him and thought, we don't quite see him fitting in the Premier League.

18:47No, no, no, no, no. I don't think so. No, I won't want to say that. Because I still think Sarvi is a great talent. Look, you're also talking about a player that comes from a great school like Barcelona. Builds himself up. OK, he maybe moved around a little bit. but where he is now Savi's focus needs to be I need to be a star there now to also take away the question that you just asked me take that away then you'll be fine if he doesn't take that away then the questions start living and people start saying like okay you had some great clubs but you didn't achieve the things that you should have achieved we're kind of talking in the same breath as Verts aren't we?

19:26well I think Verts obviously has got a higher standard a higher bar Yeah, and that was going to be my point. Xavi, I guess my question is, what were we expecting from Xavi Simons? Right. Because if anybody watched the Bundesliga... Not we, what was Spurs expecting? If you're outlaying this sort of money, surely your scout, your recruitment, should have seen this coming. We sat here at the start of the season and said the same thing. We were like, what are they expecting for this guy? Because this guy, if there was one thing you could say, all the good things he did in the Bundesliga were all sporadic the one thing you couldn't talk about him in terms of was consistently good you look at Verts 100 % for Germany for Leverkusen consistently great and then now we're wondering when's he going to be the same for Liverpool and all the things Mario was talking about absolutely spot on about the difference in the pace of the game I just don't get how people thought Xavi Simons was going to be any different than what he actually is producing right now.

20:27I think the difference between Simmons and Virts, at the very least, is physically. I always felt that Virts could stand up to the Premier League in terms of physicality. I always questioned that about Xavi Simmons. No, there are any number of small players who have come from different leagues and been successful in the Premier League. Those players, though, are technically excellent, which I'm not sure Xavi Simmons falls into that category. in terms of of that smaller structure you question whether they can stand up to the league physicality the first name that comes comes to mind former Spurs player in Luka Modric similarly small and you wonder if you could take the battering but he was just so good technically that it didn't matter the pace of the game he he stood out and you see how his career has progressed since I've never got the feeling that Xavi Simmons technically was good enough for a player who lacked the physicality to be a success in the Premier League.

21:25So as much as Thomas Frank is talking about Javi Simmons and his quality, I'm not sure that he has the combination necessary to be a success. Just a reminder, a lot more reflections on Spurs, problems and everything else we've seen across the world of football over the weekend. Be sure to check out the latest edition of the Gab and Jules podcast.

21:49more drop points of course to Real Madrid in La Liga as they can only manage a 1-1 draw against struggling Girona. Marker, the Madrid-based newspaper, saying something isn't working. Ask, meanwhile, saying without the leadership and in a mess. Speaking of mess, let's welcome in, Stuart Robson is with us from Barcelona. Luis Garcia is with us as well. Luis, what I thought What was really striking about the coverage of this game is when you compare it to Real Madrid struggles last season, it was all about the referees. Here's a picture of the referee's ex-girlfriend, second cousin removed in a Barcelona shirt, so therefore this referee is going to be against us.

22:25Or we didn't have 72 hours to prepare against Villarreal for example. There don't seem to be these sort of excuses handed up if you like, from the newspapers, from Real Madrid TV, from the media on side with the president, which makes me think that Xavi Alonso is in real trouble because there doesn't seem to be much support from those that you need that support from if you're a Real Madrid manager. Yeah exactly, I think you know a lot about that, you've been in that house and you know what it means when that sounds, that noise starts happening around Xavi Alonso and the media. I think that it's true that something is not working, something is not clicking, He's trying to find a way of doing something, have an idea of playing, but he's not clicking.

23:11He's been trying to move around the team. He's been trying to do different shapes. The intensity, I think, is not there. We saw a better Real Madrid, and I think Xavi Alonso mentioned it after the press conference, that it was better. It was more intuitive. It was more creative. They have a few chances, but they couldn't get the second goal to get the three points. And when you get three in the last three games in La Liga, three draws, you are Real Madrid and you were at the top of the table. And now you are below Barcelona. And then you know that you are in trouble. So we'll have to wait and see what Real Madrid can do against Atletico.

23:44You know, there is always a very difficult pitch to go there and to try to make a good performance. But Xavi needs to do something. He needs to do it quick. because if not, I'm not sure how much the crowd, I don't know how much Florentino and Isbora are going to be willing to keep Xavi Alonso as a coach. Is it too big a job for him, Robbo? At the moment, it looks like it is. I mean, he did a great job at Bayer Leverkusen, but he took Bayer Leverkusen from, I think it was fourth bottom of the table and took them right to the very top. So he went in there where the players weren't happy what was happening before.

24:17He was able to reconstruct them. He was able to get them to play a certain style of football. is going into a Real Madrid dressing room where there's big players, successful players, you know, players that think sometimes that they're better than they actually are and they should be the leader of the pack. Now, that's a difficult thing to do when you've come in and you're taking over from somebody who was like Ancelotti. He's tried to change one or two things. It obviously hasn't worked for him. The players don't look particularly happy. He doesn't look particularly happy. And he's not the same manager on the side of the pitch as he was when he was manager of Leverkusen.

24:47I think he's lost his confidence. He's lost his ability to change things when he needs to. And I think he's lost the confidence in some of the players. But Luis, he's been there. He's played for Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Liverpool, the biggest teams in the world. This shouldn't come as a surprise to him, should it, that you've got a dressing room full of egos? Yeah, but it's totally different when you are into a dressing room as a player or as a coach. I mean, the spirit, the work, the way that you deal with the personalities and character inside dressing room is totally different. And when you are in the other side, your background as a footballer is going to help you, of course.

25:26When you are a Leverkusen, people hear you out. They know that you've been with top, top managers in the world so that you can pick from there. So they are willing to listen to you a little bit more because they're coming from a background of not winning trophies, of not being challenging for the Bundesliga, the Champions League, the Europa League, or trophies like that. But when you arrive to Real Madrid dressing room, you know that it's totally different. All the players have two, three, four Champions League. They go leagues. They go World Cups. You got all kind of personalities with so much background that it's very difficult to try to make them understand that if they follow them, they're going to be more successful because they have been already.

26:03They have been successful with Ancelotti where we didn't see the best football at all, but they got more freedom. The way that they were trained, it was more suitable for them. Well, at least that's what they thought. But Xavi Alonso is a manager. He likes certain ways of doing things. He likes to train a certain way. He likes to manage a certain way. And sometimes that's not something not pleasing to some players. So I think he's doing a great job managing some of the personality and some of the noise that is happening. But, of course, results are not helping him a lot. So what do you do, Robert?

26:34You've got, what, one proper training session between the Athletic Club game. How do you handle that to try and get some sort of improvement from this side looking ahead to Wednesday? Well I'm not sure he can do it in one training session He's already had a few months to get it right And he hasn't been able to do that so far And you can see he's still searching for the right combinations He's still changing players positions He's still trying to work out a different formation He's trying to get different players to do different things And that's always a worry when you're a manager When you're searching for things If you change from week to week And you're trying to change players positions Then you never get any sort of rhythm But you're looking for something to click one day When it might just click together And then you can say right that's the way I want to play That's the way the players are going to do it let's go from here.