Futbol Americas: USMNT vs Peru preview+USMNT top 50 players+Rafa Márquez takes over El Tri+Can Aguirre save Valencia+Gearing up for Messi farewell+Can Ancelotti fix Brazil?

15:21Rafa Márquez:And you're good. But I guarantee you that's the same message being sent out to the players.

15:25Ryan Hanlon:Well, I assume not. But it's the message that we're seeing. And I think that's the message they want us to see. Yes, I know. But that's what I'm saying. And that's the message that I don't. You'd rather a bit more rough around the edges. Well, that's a message that I don't consume. And while it's all the right things, it's too many right things. And inside a locker room, in the depths of a locker room, there needs to be a little bit more edge. There needs to be a little bit more friction. There needs to be a little bit more, yeah. You're such a young squad. More competition. Yes, but that young squad is trying to take your place.

15:59Ryan Hanlon:That guy that was sitting right next to Tyler Adams, what's the comparison he made? He said, well, he's a Tyler Adams, but he has a longer passing game, a better passing game. So you'd rather him give him a little reminder. No, it's like, hey, dude, this is my place. And he'll get that. And you're not coming here to take my place. Now, we can package it as, look, we're all here, and I'm leading you, and you're leading me. And it's going to be great. We're going to be on this together. But the truth of the matter is that this is competition. And you being here is a threat for me. So I'm going to elevate my game, and you better be able to keep up.

16:29Ryan Hanlon:Of course, that message is not going to come out.

16:30Rafa Márquez:Yeah, I don't think that's a message that's going to be sent from Tyler Adams. Very quickly, first time I met Tyler Adams was on the field. Preseason game, Toronto versus New York. There's a play where he and I got into it. He's a teenager, 15, 16 years old. And the last thing I remember him saying to me was, F off. So this is a kid who doesn't care who he's playing against. And I'm sure he doesn't care that there's a 17-year-old in front of him with similar characteristics that wants to eat his lunch. The message will be you earn your way here. And I think while I agree with everything you said, that it was player, GM, coach, the message, there's also a warning shot there.

17:05Rafa Márquez:He used the word, these guys need to be humble. He already knows who he's got to put in his place. So I enjoy that.

17:12Ryan Hanlon:But do they? Do they need to be humble? See, this is the part that I don't quite understand. You don't like the Mr. Nice Guys thing. No, look. if Kevin Sullivan if he's a baller then be a baller and if part of being a baller is you're going to behave the way you're going to behave then it is the responsibility of the players around them to say enough of that but let him be him that's what makes him a good player let him flow you want to limit that because you want him to be humble I don't know I don't know if you actually get the best out of him that's all I'm saying spoken like a man who doesn't like to eat humble pie a day in his life.

17:51Ryan Hanlon:Well, you can see more of our Ale Poleno and the rest of it because you've never had to. Why are you attacking me? Over on our ESPN FC show. Remember we are on seven days a week. We're taking a quick break, but coming up, where do the U.S. Men's national team players rank with their clubs? Ryan O 'Hanlon will be joining us to talk more about this next.

18:15Ryan Hanlon:Shohei Ohtani's interpreter was fired today. Ipe Mitsuhara ran up gambling debts to a Southern California bookmaking operation. The inside story of the biggest scandal in modern baseball. He was absolutely bananas the amount of bets he was making. I've never seen him like it. From 30 for 30 podcasts, this is The Betrayal of Shohei Otani. Presented by Gusto. New episodes available now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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19:17Ryan Hanlon:And just like that, we are back on Football Americas. Welcome back in. As promised, we have Ryan O 'Hanlon joining us right now because we're going to preview a piece that's coming out on ESPNFC.com, Ryan, where you've been ranking the 50 U.S. Men's National Team players, or I would say the top 50 U.S. Men's National Team players, as it relates to their club according to a player performance index. Now, I'm told there's some fancy algorithm and whatnot involved, so just explain it to us how you guys sorted this ranking before we get straight into specifics?

19:47Rafa Márquez:Yes. So we bought five different data centers and then used those to formulate an AI to complete these rankings. I'm just kidding. It's not complicated at all. It's pretty much purely based on how much they're playing for their club team. So what percentage of game time they're on the field. Then using the company Opta, they just have a rating system for all the teams in the world. So essentially, how much are you playing? how good is your club team and then there's a very small added aspect for transfer value so just sort of like a conventional wisdom aspect to make sure um the rankings that don't get too crazy

20:25Ryan Hanlon:basically all right well we're just having a look at the top 10 right now which we see are obviously a lot of the what we would call veterans of the u.s men's national team people that we're used to seeing around like chris richards anthony robinson ricardo pepe tyler adams etc but I know one of the things you did mention in your article is that if come 2030 the U.S. is still relying heavily on these players then something is very very wrong so is that concerning for you now that none of the new players or these uncapped players that we're seeing in the current international window for Mauricio Pochettino have even made that top 50?

21:01Rafa Márquez:I think you could you could look at it maybe there's like a gap between the Pulisic McKinney Adams generation and then this sort of incredible new generation that you guys have been talking to that I'm sure we'll talk about of teenagers that are just tearing it up in MLS I think maybe you could say there there's a little bit of a gap in like the sort of generation that would be would come between those two but I think there's just enough time and so many of these talented young players is that it's not something I'd worry about yet. If we're having the same conversation in two years, then I think it might be time to worry.

21:35Ryan Hanlon:What about in six months, Ryan? Does this mean that you're going to have to go and do another top 50?

21:41Rafa Márquez:Yeah, I'm sure my editors are going to want me to do another top 50 much earlier than six months. And the other thing about this ranking, most of the European club teams have played four or five games, so it's a pretty noisy metric so far. it'll be we'll have a better sense of how things are actually going once some more games have been

22:01Ryan Hanlon:played all right well i want to talk about a specific player that i think has been on everybody's lips over the last couple of months because of his absolute form with the philadelphia union and you know it is cavern sullivan he's at number 31 you speak so highly of him as well in the piece and i think a lot of people are going to be wondering why is he then all the way at 31 yeah so it's

22:25Rafa Márquez:to defend myself. If I was just doing my own subjective rankings, he would be higher. But like I said, this is sort of a playing time and team quality based metric. And he didn't really start playing a ton for the Union until after the World Cup. And also the Union have been on an absolute heater since the World Cup. So, you know, his club team isn't as good as Crystal Palace or Boardmouth, and he just hasn't played as much over the course of the full season. But if we were just looking at this since the World Cup or you're looking at advanced stats or performance, he'd be way higher. I don't want to get crazy, but maybe within the top 10.

23:03Ryan Hanlon:Oh, so what you're saying is casually to Philadelphia Union that they need to step up their game and then Kevin Sullivan can be a bit higher. I wonder how much it will change, of course, when he's off over to Manchester City next year, potentially. So I want to talk now about the omissions that we're seeing in this current international window. Of course, there are a couple of names that have opted to stay out. Christian Pulisic being one, Tim Weah as well. Another one. Which one for you is the one that probably least makes sense?

23:32Rafa Márquez:I think I would say Timothy Weah. It's just kind of hard to, as someone who's been following U.S. soccer for a long time, it's hard to think that there's a 26-year-old or 26-year-old who is the captain of Marseille and has played every minute of every game, and he's not getting called up to the U.S. national team. I think part of that is because of its, you know, somewhat of an experimental roster. My guess is also some of it had to do with him playing quite poorly against Turkey at the World Cup. But we've also seen him transition from more of a winger to actually like a straight-up fullback, not even a wingback, with Marseille.

24:11Rafa Márquez:So I think some of that can be attributed to him playing out of position. I would imagine he'll be back in the fold. But yeah, just the fact that the captain of Marseille is not getting called up to the U.S. is just kind of a ridiculous statement if you think back five years, ten years, where the player pool used to be.

24:27Ryan Hanlon:Yeah, I was going to say, it's almost like what more would you want him to do? So what do you think Mauricio Pochettino isn't quite seeing in him, at least, for this current international window? I know it's hard asking you to get into the mind of Pochettino, but if you had to take a guess as to what may have kept him out, what would it be?

24:43Rafa Márquez:Yeah, I think, like I said, he was one of the worst players on the field in the Turkey game, I would say. Like he just really struggled. The ball kept going out wide to him and nothing kept happening. So that feels like it's kind of in Pochettino's head. And then I just think he hasn't I don't know. He just hasn't basically since the 2022 World Cup, his form with the U.S., obviously the infamous red card in the Copa America. And he just hasn't been super consistent under Pochettino. So I think it's a combination of sort of a long track record of poor form with the U.S. And then, like, what have you done for me lately is also not great.

25:23Ryan Hanlon:And overall, that red card is just going to haunt him for the rest of his life, I think, unfortunately. Overall, when you're looking at the camp now and the roster that Mauricio Pochettino has called up, what do you make of the balance of it?

25:34Rafa Márquez:It seems to me like the ideal roster for the first window after the World Cup. even with Pulisic like do I think he'll never play for the U.S. again no but also I assume he sort of takes up a lot of the oxygen in the room from a personality perspective and then from a playing perspective the ball's kind of just getting funneled out to him and he's 28 he's aging out of his prime as wild as that seems to say so I think like not having him there really provides a great opportunity for a lot of people, especially these younger guys that might be part of the team in this cycle, might be part of the team in the next cycle to step up.

26:15Rafa Márquez:So, you know, I think it's kind of a very clear turning of the page with no players even in their 30s. But I think it's the right way to look at this, the next World Cups in four years. So why not try to make things younger immediately?

26:30Ryan Hanlon:All right. And the final question from me now is Who are we not talking about enough, Ryan? I know you always have a pick there.

26:38Rafa Márquez:Yeah, I would say Santiago Castaneda, who, again, has played every minute for Paderborn in the Bundesliga, is 21, was a starter in the German second division for the two years before that. Again, five years ago, ten years ago, we would be freaking out about a player doing this, and now we're not. it doesn't it's not even clear if he's close to getting a call up because he does fit the sort of younger player mold um that we're seeing in this pool and i also think he he's just like a very clear ball winning destroyer in midfield who then just passes the ball sideways and strangely enough for all the midfield depth the us doesn't have a lot of sort of just defensive shields who win the ball give it to someone to pass it up the field so both i think his performance and then his profile of player kind of warrant him being in the picture.

27:32Ryan Hanlon:And I mean, he still is only 21 years old, so I don't really want to say that time is running out. But then you look at some of the other call-ups like Kevin Sullivan, you know, at 16 years old, Xavier Gozo at 19 years old. You know, you probably are wondering, when is my time going to come? So what more do you think he needs to go or needs to do to at least get closer to, you know, being in the conversation of a call-up?

27:53Rafa Márquez:I think continuing to play for Paderborn, obviously, is the first thing. just got to keep starting and i think if paderborn plays well in the bundesliga they just kind of become a higher profile team he becomes a higher pro higher profile player because of that honestly it might just be a situation where like someone has to get hurt like not this window but in one of the windows and he kind of they're forced to sort of call an emergency player in he gets called in and then he like forces pochettino to watch him play in person like it almost does feel like Like a little bit of good fortune sort of has to happen for a pathway for him to open up to get into the picture.

28:32Ryan Hanlon:Right. Ryan O 'Hanlon, thank you so much for hanging out with us on Football Americas. We can't wait to catch up with you again soon.

28:38Rafa Márquez:Yeah. Talk to you soon.

28:40Ryan Hanlon:All right. Well, you can definitely check out Ryan's article, which drops tomorrow. That's Friday over on ESPN.com. You can check it out as well for the full list.

28:54Ryan Hanlon:Right, let's put the U.S. men's national team chat aside and let's talk about El Tri, shall we? Because it's also an interesting international window for them because Rafa Márquez has announced his first Mexico squad ahead of their first game this break against Colombia. A lot of eyes are on El Tri now to see what the Mexican great can do in this next era. There's a couple of notes on Mexico's squad. 17 players from what seem to be a successful World Cup have been called up and Chivas have the most players on the team. All right, let's talk a bit more about this. Herc, what does Rafa's first roster tell us?

29:36Rafa Márquez:It tells us that he's trying to make a change, but a lot of the change that we're seeing are players that we already know. You look at a lot of these new players, potential debutantes, there are five. A lot of them have been here before. They've been in camps with the Mexican national team. It's nothing new. There's nobody that you're going to turn over and you're like, oh, yeah, this guy is somebody new. What's new is we may actually see them. What's new is they may actually get a chance to play. What's new is you're going to push out the old. And the old, this generational change, maybe is being forced.

30:09Rafa Márquez:Raul Jimenez is injured. Julian Quinones, who is getting up there in age but I think will be very much still an instrumental part in the lead of 2030, he's not here because of injury. You mean the Ballon d 'Or top 30? Nominee. Nominee. So what this tells me is there is going to be that change. The team has gotten younger. On paper, it is younger than it was at the World Cup from what we're seeing. But by no means or stretch of the imagination are you seeing players and you're thinking, this is a new team. It's Obed Vargas. It's Mateo Chavez. It's the young guys who are coming through the ranks that leave you with some hope, but you've seen them before.

30:51Rafa Márquez:You're just hoping they can become the players you expect them to be.

30:55Ryan Hanlon:Ale, anything stands out to you? The question is, what does Rafa's first roster tell us? He's out of his mind. Chucky Lozano? I mean. Rafa, have you seen Chucky Lozano play over the last, I don't know, two, three years? Chucky Lozano? Look, I'm going to defer to Liga MX's former player and expert, Hercules Gomez, and Mexican soccer expert, Hercules Gomez, to tell me, Chucky Lozano? You talk about knowing what a player is and has been. What does bringing Irwin Chucky Lozano give you if you're Rafa Marquez?

31:42Rafa Márquez:Listen, I'm with Ali here. the only thing I could think of, he's familiar with the player. He's looking for a certain profile. You look at that profile, Cesar Huerta is injured. He's the only type of other profile you could say is very direct, very I'll take somebody on or try to take somebody on. But Ale is absolutely right in the terms that if we're going to go Chucky Lozano, think about the best version of Chucky Lozano. You got to go back to 2018. It's been quite some time since you've seen. Eight years. Yes, that version of Chucky Lozano, which is why there are a few here that don't make sense to me.

32:11Rafa Márquez:You mentioned Chucky Lozano. I'll go one further. German Berterame. German Berterame, if you've seen Inter-Miami play right now, he's not confident. His teammates don't see a confident player. He's missing goals in front of the net that are a type of range that you have to bury. He's not burying them. There are a couple players here that it just feels forced. It feels forced because of depth that they don't have or because of the profile they're looking for. That's why I think Chucky Lozano is here. Those, to me, are the only real head-scratchers.

32:41Ryan Hanlon:And on the Berterame conversation, we have had on multiple occasions conversations on this very desk about Inter-Miami and the limitations that they have had in the attack that it's either messy or it's not happening for them in the attack. This very season, we have had this conversation. And part of that conversation has been the struggle of German Berterame. And yet somehow he finds his way back into the national team. I do not understand it. Yeah. All right. Well, let's move on to my second question now, because obviously it's a new manager, new era now. So everyone will feel like they have a new leaf to impress a new manager, even Chucky Lozano, believe it or not.

33:25Ryan Hanlon:So who has the most to prove under Rafa Marquez now? Herc?

33:30Rafa Márquez:It's got to be Armando La Hormiga Gonzalez. And the reason is, listen, he's 23 years of age, and a lot of you are going to be like, what do you mean? The guy played 14 minutes at the World Cup. Well, what do you expect from him? He's got a real opportunity right now. Raul Jimenez is injured, and he's not going to be in 2030. He's not going to be the starting number nine for the Mexican national team. Santiago Jimenez has proven thus far he's not him. That's not the man. You just secured a move to Olympiacos. You're scoring a few goals. You have an opportunity to take the number nine position and make it your own.

34:05Rafa Márquez:But the only way to do that is the same way his mentor, Javier Hernandez, Chicharito Hernandez did. It's putting the ball in the back of the net. They're very similar players. They are very similar players. Both players depend on their movement. They depend on their instincts in the final third, in and around the box, and their straight goal scores. I see resemblance in both. The difference is, Javier in his World Cup, he didn't get 14 minutes. He got more. And why? Because he was putting the ball in the back of the net. La Romina Gonzalez didn't have his time in the World Cup, didn't get his moment.

34:43Rafa Márquez:He's got to make this his moment. Santiago Jimenez, believe it or not, right now is carrying a knock, even though he's with the national team. He's got a second lease on life at Porto. If you're Armando Gonzalez, you can't allow this player to grow. You've got to put these opportunities away, and you've got to make this position yours, because right now everybody's asking themselves, well, if it's not Raul, who's the nine?

35:05Ryan Hanlon:When is Santi Jimenez not carrying a knock? Because you mentioned Armiga Gonzalez, and while I agree in terms of the big picture, I do think that in terms of players that have something to prove with this national team, Santi Jimenez is very much at the top of that list. He was supposed to be the guy, and he was given multiple opportunities to be the guy. and then injuries have taken over and he never seems to recover fully from these injuries. And so that's why we're having a conversation about La Hormiga Gonzalez. We shouldn't be having this conversation. And yet it is a real conversation because Santi Jimenez hasn't been able to grab a hold of that position.

35:47Ryan Hanlon:If it's ever going to happen, it seems to be like now would be a good time to do so. I think he's under pressure as well. All right. Santi Jimenez, I hope you're not watching this one. Final question now. No, because he's taking care of the knock that he has. He gave. Multiple knocks. Final question now. I like to say that comparison is a thief of joy, but let's compare what Rafa Marquez is trying to do or what we're thinking Rafa Marquez is trying to do with what Mauricio Pochettino is trying to do now that we see their two rosters as this rebuild continues for this next cycle. So who has the better rebuilding approach from what we can read early on?

36:24Ryan Hanlon:Herc?

36:27Rafa Márquez:Well, listen, the rebuild approach for Rafa Marquez goes beyond Rafa Marquez himself. This is Rafa Marquez, who was the assistant coach with Javier Aguirre. So you're continuing what for them was a very successful World Cup. It goes to the Federation with Andres Lilini, who is the director of the Federation. Shout out to Andres Lilini. All right, he makes a show. Yeah, well, but what I'm trying to get to is what their rebuild is doing is they're trying to go after dual nationals, young players. They're trying to change the way these players come through, which has already done dividends for the players like Orbelin, Obed Vargas, Brian Gutierrez, the dual nets like that.

37:09Rafa Márquez:That's an approach that you say, OK, it's going to give you fruit down the road. But there's just not enough material, not enough talent there. where Marisa Pochettino has the luxury of trouting out 13 players that can get their first cap, 13 debutantes, and 11 of them are under the age of 20. And you're thinking, well, there's still players that he left off who potentially would have been on, so it seems like he's got a lot more to work with. I'll go with Marisa Pochettino just in terms of what he has at his disposal and what he's trying to do. It's evident with this roster that there is a rebuild, a generational change.

37:51Rafa Márquez:There's not so much of that in the Mexico roster. Some of these players have already been there. It doesn't seem like that much of a change. And some of it, you're asking yourself, as Ali just mentioned, why are you going back to the well with Chucky Lozano? Why are you going back here? So I'll go with Mauricio Pochettino.

38:06Ryan Hanlon:I don't think there's a doubt that it is Mauricio Pochettino. By the way, in the first segment, you used CB1, and now you use dual nets. You have changed. You have changed. I don't know what has happened to you, but you have changed. As it pertains to Mauricio Pochettino, I don't think there's any doubt that he has what we call in Spanish-speaking countries materia prima. And he has something to work with. He has what we think is material, what we think is talent. A luxury even. I don't know if it's a luxury or not. Well, we will see. Well, yeah, you've got to develop and nurture this talent and make sure that this talent becomes what you think it's going to become.

38:48Ryan Hanlon:Because otherwise, we're going to have a conversation about Freddy Adu again. And I don't want to do that in my life. Just merely suggesting. Look, I think Mauricio Pochettino has in front of him an opportunity to really get something out of these players. Now, these players will be here with the national team for three weeks. And then they'll go back to their clubs. And so it's a responsibility of the players themselves to continue their growth so that then they're called back into the national team and we continue this cycle over and over again. But Pochettino does seem to have more material to work with than Rafa Marquez does.

39:20Ryan Hanlon:And Rafa Marquez has gone now down the path of Chucky Lozano. And let me just tell you, I'm not having it. But if we're talking materia prima, I mean, Mexico have some silverware in the youth system. So wouldn't that count? But they're not on the national team. But that's what we're saying. Should he be going there? At least give him the chance. Pochettino, I mean. You ask who has a better approach. Doesn't that answer your own question?

39:40Rafa Márquez:I think it's great. I'm throwing one back. I think it's great that Mexico has dominated at all levels, all youth levels. Like one time Nigeria dominated at all youth levels. What does that guarantee you? Some of these tournaments.

39:55Ryan Hanlon:Some of the players may not have been age appropriate like Mexico has in the past.

39:59Rafa Márquez:Oh, well. I'm not going down that road.

40:03Ryan Hanlon:Oh, sorry. I'm stating facts.

40:05Rafa Márquez:In some of these tournaments, like the Olympics, the Olympics are great. And very quickly, my buddy's like, hey, the Olympics can be in Los Angeles. Should we get tickets to the Olympic Games, you know, in soccer? I'm like, yeah, go for the women because everybody plays. In the men's, it's a U23 tournament. Not the best players go. And I'm having to explain this. That happens in a lot of different youth tournaments as well. So why it's great, and if you're Mexico, here's my cabinet of trophies. I've dominated the region. That is true. but it doesn't guarantee you full national team success.

40:38Ryan Hanlon:Y punto. Just prove Gale's point then. There we go. I don't know who has a better approach, I think, Marisol Pochettino. There we go. Well, for more talk about El Tri, you can bet that the crew over on Ahora Nunca will be talking about it. It's available weekdays over on YouTube.

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42:33Ryan Hanlon:I was going to say out with the old, in with the new, but look at that smile on El Vasco's face because he himself as well is starting a new era as he has taken over Valencia. But we know if you watch La Liga on ESPN, it will be no easy task as Valencia have been struggling, not just at the start of this season, but for the last couple of seasons, As well, there they are on the bottom half of the standings. They are already in the relegation zone after picking up four points only from their seven games played. So, Javier Aguirre, is he the right man for Valencia right now? He has at least now until the end of the season.

43:14Ryan Hanlon:Well, if you know anything about Javier Aguirre and what his club coaching resume includes, is when teams are in complete disarray. And they need some fires. The roof is caving in and they need a miracle escape. And while that's not quite the situation for Valencia just yet, it is no surprise that they have gone down the route of Javier Aguirre and give him credit. Because usually when he is able to take over this sort of situations, somehow he manages to get his teams enough points to barely survive. And that's what I assume is going to happen here with Valencia. They will get enough points barely to survive.

43:58Ryan Hanlon:It's not a good team, obviously. And they are in emergency mode. And there is no better emergency mode manager than a guy like Javier Aguirre, who seems to thrive in this environment even better than he would in a World Cup environment. This, the suffering, the pain, this seems to be where he is most comfortable. That's where Valencia are right now. So it would seem to be the right hire for a club that desperately needs something different. I should get him to put out some fires in my life.

44:30Rafa Márquez:Well, you're talking about fires, and what Ale's talking about is exactly right. In Mexico, they refer to him as el bombero. And what do you do when the house is on fire? You call a bombero, a fireman, and come save the house. This house is on fire. The same way the Mexican national team house was on fire, they called Javier Aguirre. He's been in this situation. This will be his fifth time in La Liga. He's been in some desperate situations. Osasuna, Mallorca, Leganese. Only once has that team gone down, been relegated. That was the Leganese 2018-19 season. And if you remember, their best player, Barth Wright, was sold to Barcelona mid-season.

45:06Rafa Márquez:And he's like, what are you doing? We're trying to save ourselves, and you're selling our best player. That's the only time he didn't save the house. This is his MO. This is where he feels very confident. But I'll tell you what. Peter Lim, what he's done to Valencia, If it's not now, it'll happen next year or eventually because he has destroyed this club. But Javier Aguirre has mentioned it himself. This is a historic team in La Liga. He knows who he's trying to save. This is another stripe on the tiger for Javier Aguirre. This is where he feels comfortable.

45:39Ryan Hanlon:Yeah, and we'd love going to Valencia, don't we, Ale? And there will be a new stadium as well. And there will be a new stadium, indeed. You may want to stay in La Primera. You may want to stay in La Liga. to be able to finish that. Don't believe that opening the setting where you're in La Segunda makes a whole lot of sense. You may still want to be on ESPN. That's exactly where you have La Liga. Well, let's talk about what success looks like then for Javier Aguirre there. Is it just merely surviving, Ale? That's it. That's the standard. That's as much as you're going to get from Javier Aguirre, and that's as much as you should expect from this Valencia team.

46:13Ryan Hanlon:They're not going to be much better than that. And I think if you're going to expect anything from this Valencia team, and Javier Aguirre is going to be, we're going to be organized, we're going to defend well, we're going to be difficult to beat, we may run into a goal here and there, and we'll get enough points against teams around us, not necessarily teams above us, but around us, that if we do that consistently enough, we'll survive. That's it. That's the expectation. Nothing more than that. And if he does that, it's job done by Javier Aguirre. What was the year they played Barcelona in the

46:43Rafa Márquez:Copa de la Rey final? Do you remember that? That's a while back. But that's... You mentioned Brathwaite? Yeah. I have better hair than Brathwaite. I'm just saying, I do. Isn't I a multi-billionaire now? Who? But I have better hair. But you have better hair. But that's the expectation that people think when they think Valencia. They're like, there's an opportunity for this team... To make a cup run, at least. It will hurt them to make a cup run. It really will. It'll hurt their La Liga chances. The expectation is to keep this team afloat, is to survive this year. They got four points, four points.

47:22Rafa Márquez:And that's not a death sentence right now. But if they don't just concentrate on staying afloat, it surely will be. Later, you can think about a cup run. As Javier Aguirre had with Mallorca, and they lost in penalty kicks in the final to, I believe it was Bilbao, Atleico Bilbao, who they lost to in penalty kicks in the Cup of the Re final a couple years ago. That's when you can start dreaming. Right now, stay afloat.

47:45Ryan Hanlon:It's four points. And if you want to see the Javier Aguirre impact on this team, look at the goals allowed. So far, they have allowed 13 goals. It's almost two goals a game. That's not going to be the case from here on out. This team is not going to give up goals. They're not going to score a lot, but they'll score just enough. Survival is the only thing they're looking for. All right. Well, El Bombero definitely bows into action for Valencia when La Liga returns on our network next month. Valencia will be going up against Racing Santander. This is Sunday, October 11th, 3 p.m. Eastern time. That may not be a priority in my schedule, that game, let me just say.

48:22Ryan Hanlon:Ale, we may be on it. What?

48:28Ryan Hanlon:All right, let's get some dripping or tripping, because like I said, it's time to get the tissue boxes out because Lionel Messi is getting ready to play his final game for Argentina, and he has been given a farewell jersey. Have a look at it. Gold letters and numbers there because that's exactly what he deserves. What do we think, guys? Drippin' or trippin'? You're the fashion forward. The drip expert.

48:55Rafa Márquez:Listen, I love it. Can you focus in on the numbers really quickly? The little goat horns on the numbers. Very nice touch. Look at that. That is beautiful. It is beautiful. It's also not lost upon me that they're taking every moment that is messy as one final squeeze of the lemon. marketing dollars, and taking that opportunity for what it's worth but this is a beautiful beautiful kit.

49:21Ryan Hanlon:This is you know as the kids tend to say dripping. This is dripping all over I mean this is yeah you know what? The details, the details. I'll take an XL you know used to be out. I know you're not an XL. Well, you know what to say? I'm a little wider than I used to be. Are you going to sleep in that XL? I'm just saying. L is not an XL. I would say an L pushing it. Pushing it. Thank you for that. But I'll take one. I'll take one. Whoever is in charge of making this decision, I'll take one. Give us a call. I actually have a couple links at Adidas. All right. Well, let's go to somebody or hear from somebody.

49:59Ryan Hanlon:It's Adidas.

50:00Rafa Márquez:Adidas. Yes.

50:02Ryan Hanlon:Saying y 'all know it's German. Yeah. Yeah. We don't go there, Ale. Too soon. too soon. All right, well, let's hear from somebody who knows Messi very, very well, and that, of course, is Lionel Scaloni. This is what he had to say ahead of that farewell game on October 6th.

50:38Ryan Hanlon:so that he could be in this game. We knew everything that was going on and even so he put the feelings and the effort to come and be able to be able to be with his people, with the people who so much love him. I think that if there is a gift, there is to do it in this moment. Because then, he will never stop with him, but then the magic, maybe in a time, is not the same. I think now is the time for him to feel that love everyone wants. All right, Scaloni, they're talking about this occasion. So thoughts on what the big man had to say, Ale? Well, let me just say, outside of what Scaloni mentioned there, which I think is what you would expect him to say about Lionel Messi, that it is the right moment to pay tribute to Lionel Messi.

51:27Ryan Hanlon:So be it. I'm with him. We could not have gotten a better team than Benin. Oh. I mean, let's make it a grand occasion. I suppose it's just about Lionel Messi and not the team that they're playing against. And this could potentially be, with all due respect to Benin, 10-0. And people would love that. Maybe Messi gets four or five. I don't know. I don't know. That's not really all that relevant. But I'm just saying, if it's a grand occasion, let's make it a real grand occasion. Regardless, Lionel Messi deserves whatever he gets. And whatever he gets is not going to be enough. as to how important and how significant he has been to Argentina, the people of Argentina, the national team of Argentina, what he has meant to the world of soccer, to the world of sports, pop culture.

52:16Ryan Hanlon:Lionel Messi is bigger than anything and everything that you can think of. And so he's going to get his tribute, and whatever tribute he gets is not going to be enough. Clearly, he has earned everything that comes his way.

52:29Rafa Márquez:To that, Ale, I'm with you. Benin? And I know this goes with what Argentina has been doing post-Qatar and the games they've been scheduling outside of Comnebol, these not official games. That's been their MO. That's who they play against, these type of teams. But this is arguably the greatest player that's ever played the game. It's not arguable in my eyes. If it's arguable in yours, arguably the greatest player that's ever played the game and deserves a little bit more. in a ideal world, a dream scenario, you get Argentina versus Barcelona. And you get it in Camp Nou. And John Laporta was asked about this in the assembly with the Socios in Barcelona.

53:14Rafa Márquez:And his answer was, we're going to do this. Once the stadium is finished at full capacity, 2028, that moving target, by the way, the stadium was supposed to be finished in 2026. To me, that's a slap in the face to one of the players that's given this club so much, if not everything. Only Johan Cruyff has probably given them more or equal to. It would have been a dream scenario to do that. Yet, while I agree with Ale, anything that would have happened would have fell short. Benin just feels like not enough.

53:52Ryan Hanlon:Look This Lionel Messi right was going to come to an end eventually and Sticking the landing Isn't always the easiest thing to do Especially when you're trying to land Potentially the greatest player of all time How do you go about Doing this How exactly do you manage to Check all the boxes Who is deciding what those boxes are There's a lot of moving parts here, and so I'll give the Argentina Federation a break in terms of who they chose to be the rival for this game. I suppose that their point is it's not so much about the rival as it is about celebrating Lionel Messi. My argument, as I just said before, they had a chance to make this a real grand occasion, and it just feels like it's grand for Messi.

54:43Ryan Hanlon:It's gone for the people of the stadium. The occasion itself doesn't seem to be completed by the team that you're playing against. That doesn't seem to match the greatness that they're trying to celebrate and they're paying tribute to. All right. Well, let's talk bigger picture now because it's a question that, of course, we've had to ask a couple of times over the last couple of years. And that is, what does Argentina look like after Messi? So who gets the keys to that position? Is it Julian Alvarez or Nico Paz?

55:15Ryan Hanlon:Is there another option?

55:20Ryan Hanlon:Well, it's none of the above, really. How does Argentina change in the world? The problem is that there's going to be a transition, and usually we think of transitions as processes that happen over, I don't know, a period of a few months. in this case is a transition that is going to happen over a period of years. Years. Generations. Years. Argentina is going to have to turn over this generation and then get into the next one and then see what they have in that next generation. And that may not be it either. And they may turn it over again and then see what they have. We are talking, I just mentioned, potentially the greatest player of all time, of all time.

56:10And so who are you going to hand the keys to?

56:14Ryan Hanlon:Well, you may hand the keys to somebody, but that's just a stopgap. Nico Paz, good player, but you don't want to be the guy that follows in Messi because he's just not that guy. Julian Alvarez doesn't play the position. And to even put him on the screen, there would be a mistake. we made a mistake production wise we made a mistake who who who leon okay uh for the producer while i'm talking and giving you an answer don't don't don't give me the explanation that i already know julian alvarez is not leonel messi and he won't be given the keys he will not be given the keys you put him there as an option you put him they put him there as an option that option is wrong.

56:56Ryan Hanlon:And you know it's wrong. Lord have mercy. It's if you said... I just told you. I just told you that the generation is going to turn over. Who are you talking to? I'm talking to the producer who keeps talking to me. Lord have mercy. Didn't I just answer your question? I did. So, Hark, who has the keys for you?

57:20Rafa Márquez:Nobody right now. Enter that conversation. No, and listen.

57:24Ryan Hanlon:Because I got to look somewhere.

57:26Rafa Márquez:I would say it's never going to happen, yet I've seen it happen. And I've seen it happen with this national team, with this nation, and that's the thing. Argentina churns out players like it's their business because it is their business. This is what they do. When Diego Armando Maradona left, people said, you will never see another left-footed player like him in this world. And yet you saw another left-footer like him, and even better, in Argentina. It just came generations after. And even with that player, Argentina suffered. So success isn't guaranteed. It's not immediate. This Argentine national team went decades without a Copa America.

58:02Rafa Márquez:They went decades suffering while Brazil, their arch nemesis, won World Cups. I'm not saying they're not going to find another Messi because I've already seen them find another Maradona. Maybe they'll find somebody better. But man, if they can find somebody better, imagine what that player is going to be. There's nobody right now, and that's okay. The same way it was okay when there was nobody after Maradona. It doesn't have to be like for like. They just don't have the same player with that meaning to world football. It has nothing to do with the position. It's got to do with what the player means to world football.

58:41Rafa Márquez:They don't have anybody even close. Nico Paz is a bet for the future for Argentina, but he's a blip in the radar for the rest of the world, and that's a reality. Julian Alvarez, his own club team doesn't want him at the moment. And whatever team he's been on, he's never really been that man.

58:59Ryan Hanlon:You better not argue against these guys because then the producer gets upset. He's never really been that man. Lord have mercy.

59:04Rafa Márquez:So I would argue it's okay not to have that guy right now. If you're Argentina, you may have that guy in the future.

59:12Ryan Hanlon:The point is, they're not just going to find them in a couple of months. Yeah. It's going to take time. it may not even be my lifetime the way it's going with this producer getting me as obsessed as I am I may not make it past this show but the truth of the matter is it's generational you mentioned Maradona, from Maradona to Messi

59:34Rafa Márquez:a lot of good players

59:36Ryan Hanlon:but not that level and a lot of years went by and a lot of difficult years for Argentina by their standards so it's not going to happen right away and if you're thinking it's going to happen right away with these two guys You're wrong. Forget about it. All right, where should we wash it? Should we have a wash party? Some empanadas, some mate, some roncito. Can we say that? Vening Argentina. Vening Argentina. Life insurance is one of those things that's easy to put off because it doesn't feel urgent today. But it's not just another financial box to check. It's about having a plan in place so if life throws something unexpected at your family, they're not left dealing with the financial side without support.

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1:01:28Ryan Hanlon:Terms and conditions apply. What about for this one? Brazil are also in action with Carlo Ancelotti in this international break. They're going up against Australia. But a lot of questions still remain for Brazil after what was a very very disappointing World Cup for them Let's hear from Carlo Ancelotti on the current form of a red-hot Rafinha and Vinny Jr.

1:02:08Ryan Hanlon:It's not the best moment now. The conviction that we both have is that they will be

1:02:15Rafa Márquez:fundamental players for the future. This is a very important player for the Selecció.

1:02:38Ryan Hanlon:He's got it on. He's got it on. All right. Well, like I said, a lot of eyes on Brazil, especially in this first international window after what was a very disappointing World Cup. Ale, but Rafinha is in such hot form. We absolutely love watching him on La Liga. So does his current form change how Carlo Ancelotti at least approaches this window? I have to imagine that if you're Carlo Ancelotti, and I think he hinted at it there, in which he said, well, it's kind of playing his position that wasn't his position, but apparently it's his position, which then tells me that for Brazil, he may just play in that very same position.

1:03:17Ryan Hanlon:But as we have discussed in this show in the past, it's the players around Rafinha that are not quite to the same level as the players that he has around him in Barcelona. How does that affect his performance with the national team? We'll just have to wait and see. I'll ask Hercules a question. Am I allowed to ask a question? Of course. Dale. Who do you think is in a better position now, where we are right now? Brazil or Argentina? Ooh. I don't know if I was allowed to ask questions, but, you know, there you go. Ooh, that's a great question. If you were given the opportunity to take over one of these teams.

1:03:57Rafa Márquez:Attacking-wise, I would say Brazil. But defensively, I still take Brazil. You know what, it's probably Brazil, because if I look at the outside backs for Argentina, nobody really leaves me the impression that they're good enough or they'll be good enough in the future. Just in terms of player personnel, I would go Brazil right now. That's actually a very interesting question. But, but they've given me nothing collectively. So are you taking Brazil then? No, no, no. I'm only taking them because of what it says on paper. Who's got more material to work with? not the sensation they've given me collectively.

1:04:34Ryan Hanlon:Well, I would take Brazil as well. And I would take Brazil, not necessarily because of Brazil themselves. I would take Brazil because there is no messy factor with Argentina going forward. And as it pertains to Brazil, I think, I think there's potential here. Oh, yeah. I think there is something here. But it is a responsibility of Carlo Ancelotti and his players, for that matter, to take the next step, the next evolution of this national team. I think long gone are the days of Brazil as we used to think of them, but they can be better than when they have been. And this team should be better than when it has been.

1:05:13Ryan Hanlon:And while offensively I agree with what you're saying, that this is a team that on paper should be far more dynamic than what it is, a player like Rafinha hasn't always been the sort of performer that you would expect them to be with a national team. Yeah, Vinny, same thing. Vinny, and you can have that conversation about many players. Midfield, you know.

1:05:33Rafa Márquez:Well, that's the only line that I would take Argentina. I'm thinking about it right now. That's the only line that I would lean Argentina would be the midfield line. That's the only line. Well, there is, I think, potential for this Brazilian national team.

1:05:47Ryan Hanlon:But everybody, not just one or two players, not just Rafinha, not just Vinny, Bruno Guimaraes, he has to take his game to a different level with the national team. But I do think if the conversation were between Brazil and Argentina going forward, you take Messi out of the picture, it becomes very much, for me, Brazil should be your number one pick there. Carlo Ancelotti is going to have to get a lot out of this team, which he hasn't so far. Have to get a lot out of Vinny Jr. as well. Which he hasn't so far. Which is a bit surprising to someone. He had a good World Cup.

1:06:20Rafa Márquez:That's the thing. What Ale was saying about Brazil and Rafinha not delivering Vinny Jr., that is all true. The one player who stepped it up, Rafinha got injured in the World Cup, was Vinny Jr. He had his moments in the World Cup.

1:06:32Ryan Hanlon:But you know what I would say to that, Hercules, is that, yes, he had moments in the World Cup. But when it came to the match against Norway, the concerning part for me was once Carlo Ancelotti put Neymar on the field, Vinny Jr. was no longer the Vinny Jr. that he had been earlier in the competition. he deferred to Neymar. He wasn't the only one. The rest of Brazil also deferred to Neymar. And in doing that, I didn't like that from Vinny's perspective because it's almost as if you're the guy, you take us forward, instead of saying, no, no, I'm the guy, and I'm going to carry you. I'm going to carry you with me, and we're going to be better because we're both on the field.

1:07:13Ryan Hanlon:The fact that he then threw himself to the left-hand side and allowed Neymar to go and get touches on the ball, didn't like that at all. All right. Well, let's remind you that Rafinha is definitely in red-hot form. We're going to hope that he continues that throughout this international break. And even when he's back in La Liga, suiting up for Hans Difican Barcelona, they'll be in action against Getafe. That is Saturday, October 10, 12.30 p.m. Eastern time on the ESPN app and ESPN Deportes. Maybe Alain and I will be on that. Maybe. I think I'm calling that game, actually.

1:07:42Rafa Márquez:Ah, bueno.

1:07:43Ryan Hanlon:Maybe that. All right. So I suppose the two teams from the Americas have had to hold big fat L's in what is also a new era with new managers now in this one. Let's take a new take on the managers, because there's been a lot of new managers around the world, not just for our America's teams, but as well in European teams and whatnot. Ale, what are your takes on the new managers? Which one stands out to you? Well, I had mentioned that I thought Uruguay picking Diego Forlan was something special. And not in a good way. This has car crash written all over it. But I'm going to move past that because...

1:08:26Ryan Hanlon:He's interim. Well, but you know how these things work out. Yes, I do. It's like, oh, well, we didn't find anybody else. So let's just keep this guy. He knows what we want, right? Okay. How about Jurgen Klopp? in Germany. I think in Jurgen Klopp, we have a guy who at the club level and dealing with his group of players on a daily basis, he was able to create an environment and an energy and an intensity and an urgency about his teams that played with that sort of speed, played with that sort of passion, but you do that on a daily basis. How do you recreate that with a national team, a group of players that only comes together every two or three months, and then you have to somehow manufacture this feeling, manufacture this group of players that somehow have to find that intensity, that urgency, that care for each other, that love for each other.

1:09:26Ryan Hanlon:That doesn't mean that they're hugging each other in the locker room. It means that they're running for each other and supporting each other on the field. And on top of all that, besides all of that, I think it's a challenge altogether, the talent level for Germany is not as high as it has been in the past. And when I say in the past, we have to go all the way back, all the way back to 2014 when they won the World Cup. Since then, it's been a steady decline by Germany. And so here is Jurgen Klopp trying to change the mentality and the identity of this German national team. It's going to be really interesting to see whether he's going to have that kind of impact.

1:10:03Rafa Márquez:Herc? Yeah. What's your pick? Xavi Hernandez. If you know Xavi Hernandez and where he came from, Barcelona, and the type of football he played as a player, and what he tried doing in his first season, and who he is, it kind of makes sense that he would go the Dutch route. And this is the most anti-Dutch national team that we've ever seen. That was Ronald Koeman's national team. They were pragmatic. They were a team that was very frigid, that got vertical at times. of Egghorst is a team that was unlike any other Dutch national team that we've ever seen. Very anti-Johan Cruyff, which is total football, la naranja mecánica.

1:10:46Rafa Márquez:So what do they do? They go out and get a guy who's experienced that total football, the Johan Cruyff way with Barcelona. And they're hoping he can bring back some of that. There is no more underachiever in world football than the Dutch national team in its history. It's a sleeping giant. And it's a team that's always prided themselves on playing a certain brand of football. That went out the window with Ronald Koeman. You know, with Xavi Hernandez, despite what his last season at Barcelona may have looked like, this is a coach that could bring that back. And you saw a little bit of it today when they played Germany.

1:11:23Rafa Márquez:A little bit of how they tried building out of the back. A little bit of how they tried going at speed, winning the ball back. And at times made this Dutch national team look fun to watch. which is what they've always been at least, fun to watch. They weren't that under Ronald Koeman. With Xavi Hernandez, the question of this is which team will change the most? There's no more drastic change than being pragmatic, defensive, to going back to who you were at heart, which is total football, high-volume football, a football that is more the Barcelona way than any other national team, sans Spain.

1:11:57Ryan Hanlon:Ah, the Dutch, always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I know what that's like. Let's move on. Whoa, it really went for it there. Too early? Wow. All right, well, it's convenient that these two chose Jurgen Kloppe and Xavi Hernandez because their two new countries went in action here from a Dutch corner in the 13th minute. That is when the Netherlands thought they had a goal, but after a VAR review... I can see why it's called.

1:12:21Rafa Márquez:I can see why it's called. I don't agree with it, Ale. Are you asking for my opinion?

1:12:26Ryan Hanlon:Is that you setting me up for my opinion? Oh, no. Oh, not again. 28th minute Kai Havertz going down.

1:12:34Rafa Márquez:Why give it away? The whole wrapping on the leg? Our Timber is taking his leg off.

1:12:39Ryan Hanlon:Well, he would be subbed off, went straight to the locker room. A couple of minutes later, Germany on the attack, and they get their first goal. Ja. Well, it's really the deflection and the move from Carina de Llemy that leads for the tap-in from Mecha 1-0. Oh, well, there's you out of Llemy. Ay, no. Mamita querida. Cannot be missing that.

1:12:58Rafa Márquez:Yeah, yeah.

1:12:59Ryan Hanlon:Listen, Jurgen Klopp, he loves the move. He loves to transition. The cross was coming with a little too much pace. Ale, ale, ale, ale. Unnecessary pace. I'm just saying. Ale. I'm a beacon of positivity. Wow. I'm positively shanked. Very positive. 66th minute. This is another shank. Shabby cannot even believe this one. You'll see the manager's reaction because this has to go in.

1:13:21Rafa Márquez:No, no, no. He's no Jonathan David, I'll tell you that. Oh, here we go.

1:13:24Ryan Hanlon:Football Americas. Into stoppage time we go. Navarri here with a bad turnover. Van Bommel with a great cross. And Cody Gatpo, as he comes up big for Liverpool on occasion, he does it here for his country to level things. 1-1. Yes, it is a sexy ball coming from the left-hand side. But the finish. You got to control the finish in the manner in which Cody Gatpo did there. Perfectly done. 1-1. Fifth minute of stoppage time now. Gustil has a header behind. I know. I know. It goes wide.

1:13:54Rafa Márquez:Yeah. And if it wasn't, Gustil, there's two more Dutch players that could potentially put this in. Xavi Hernandez can't believe it. That was the winner right there.

1:14:03Ryan Hanlon:All right. Well, in the end, two great managers indeed, and it ends 1-1. NWSL is back on our network with BFC against Orlando Pride that Sunday, 5 p.m. Eastern time, over on ESPN as well as ESPN Deportes. All right. That's going to do it for this edition of Football Americas. Next week, we will be back on a Tuesday, not a Monday. We're mixing things up a little bit. It's International Week, so make sure to join us then. Until then, have a wonderful weekend. Tuesday. Tuesday. Okay. For Buena America's on a Tuesday. Yeah, that's fine. I'm not going to be here.

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