Man City Guilty of Financial Breaches

0:04Welcome to the latest edition of ESPN SC. I'm Dan Thomas, joined by Shaka Hislop and Stevie Nicholl. Once again, we start today's show with Manchester City because it was confirmed that they have been found guilty of breaching 115 rules during that eight-year period, dominating the headlines in England. Let's take you through some of the statements that have been said over the last 24 hours. This is Richard Masters, the Chief Executive of the Premier League. The core decision establishes the facts of what happened to Manchester City during this period. It details how the club systematically broke Premier League rules for nearly a decade.

0:40This is part of the statement Manchester City arranged sham contracts, which misrepresented the true agreement between the parties with a number of its commercial partners, as well as relying on sham agreements with others to artificially inflate the club's revenues and reduce its cost. The Independent Commission's written findings stated, we concluded that a number of important factual witnesses called to give evidence on behalf of the club was false in a number of key respects and had given evidence at the hearing that they knew to be untrue and so had been dishonest. Ferran Soriano, the CEO of City, said The whole Premier League case against us is based on a single false accusation That the owner's personal money was somehow and secretly put into the club via some sponsors from Abu Dhabi This is just not true Irrefutable evidence has been provided to the Premier League Commission that shows that it did not happen The Premier League Commission has issued an opinion that supports the Premier League's conspiracy theory.

1:50To do so, the opinion had to actually ignore the extensive evidence provided by the club in order to reach a conclusion that is clearly wrong. And look at Oggie, smiling away. This is like his Christmas scum early. Manchester City received£949.94 million in commercial income from Abu Dhabi sponsors between 2009 and 2018. Only£119 million came from sponsors. The remaining£830.69 million were tagged sums paid by Abu Dhabi United Group, which of course owns City. for more on this let's welcome in the man himself mark ogden joins us uh phil walcott what a show for you to join us there right okay oggy what does all this mean considering what we've been talking about over the last week how does this develop the situation well it develops it in the sense that the premier league have now confirmed what we all knew on friday that this has been a jaw-dropping verdict on Man City and it's industrial-scale cheating that's what it is so the situation now is that City have gotten to the 2nd of October Friday to to appeal now they've made it clear they're going to appeal for Ansariano's made it clear he's going to appeal so the issue is how far does it kick the can down the road before we actually get some sanctions and some resolution that the whole process is exhausted now City believe and they keep telling us that they've got irrefutable evidence that they were innocent.

3:25But the evidence has been refuted emphatically in the hearing, to the point where they've been found guilty of all the charges. So, I don't quite know what City's kind of smoking gun evidence is, but they insist that they will be found innocent. So, we'll wait and see. But, look, it's like being 115-0 down at half-time in a game, and you've got to fight back in the second half. I don't know how they're going to overturn it. But, that is a situation that they face. Even you haven't had that situation, Shaq, with your skills. Right. Oggy, you talk about this big deficit, yeah? £800 million, pretty much.

4:00If this is true, what will the punishment be? We've no reason to deny that it's not true because the independent panel have studied the evidence and the judgment and they've found that it is true. They've looked at the accounts. So what does it mean? I mean, that is just a staggering amount of money that the club have put in that they shouldn't have put in. It's against Premier League rules for the owners to put in money to a club that is not earned, basically, on fair means, i.e. commercial value. So what City have been accused of and found guilty of is artificially inflating their commercial income.

4:33So let's just say that the deal for the Etihad was worth£20 million a year. They have to justify that by saying it's market rates. And Man Utd or Liverpool would say, well, we're only earning that much money. So how can a club like Man City, without a global footprint, a fan base, a historic standing earned as much as us or even more than us but they didn't because the owner was putting more in as has been proven by this panel that the reason why City were able to spend so much money on wages on players, on managers such as Pep Guardiola is because they were funded secretly under the table by the ownership group to enable that to happen and that's why they were so far ahead of their domestic rivals because they couldn't compete they couldn't compete on a fair playing ground so the Premier League and the Commission have found that City as they said systematically broke the rules for almost a decade so I think what it means at the end of the the process when we get to it is that City are going to face incredibly big sanctions huge fines huge points deductions and the Premier League has it within their ability to expel City from the competition now I I never thought that was a lot that was a likelihood I thought that was like the nuclear option but when you read the language of the statement today.

5:44You know, Richard Masters saying that they systematically broke the rules. City being accused of a sham. I mean, a sham is a very strong word to accuse a football club of operating of sham deals. You know, they've submitted false accounts, which, you know, again, that takes you into a different dimension altogether. So when it comes down to it, if City are, if the appeal fails and they are upheld to have committed all these rule breaks, I think they'll be relegated either by a points deduction or expelled from the Premier League. And that opens a completely different debate as to where they end up.

6:14Let's talk timeline here as you mentioned what they've got until the start of October to launch this appeal obviously from what we've heard from the CEO they most definitely will. What happens next? Well then listen I mean I think it's kept fairly obvious Friday 2nd of October they will appeal and then we'll start the process again and the process will be a different panel we'll hear the evidence but I mean will it take another two years? Potentially but obviously if you read the findings there's a 40 page document of what the panel wrote in their judgement that a lot of the witnesses on City's behalf were unreliable or dishonest so do these dishonest witnesses go up in front of the panel again or is there evidence discounted we don't know ultimately but the Premier League want it done quickly and there's a real, real desire to get it done by the end of the season because this cannot carry on Man City might win the Premier League this season they may win the Champions League and then what happens but this cannot drag on forever but City want it to drag on as long as possible because the longer it drags on, the more distance they put between what happened and the clock continues to run, the costs continue to spike.

7:17Somebody told me earlier on that a lot of Premier League owners and executives are now looking at the cost of this, it's gone over£100 million all told and they're having to foot the bill because the Premier League is funded by its members. But ultimately, if it's costing each club£10-20 million to get this over the line, that is a lot cheaper than the cost of having to compete with a Man City that's basically breaking the rules to be ahead of them. How much will this force the Premier League to look at itself and look at the owners that they allow into this system? Well, they have already looked at themselves.

7:49The reason why Newcastle have been unable to become the new Man City under Saudi ownership over the last five years is because the rules were in place. The rules were put in place many years ago because of Chelsea originally and Man City. I think Arsene Wenger back in the early 2000s accused Chelsea of financial doping and then it was Man City who took it to a different level. So the rules are in place to stop this happening again. But in terms of the Premier League and what they have to do going forward, well, they have to make sure that, you know, certainly the ownership issue, well, there's a football regulator in the UK now, and situations whereby owners are not classed as being fit and proper will be disbarred from being club owners or directors.

8:25Now, if you've overseen a situation where you've submitted false accounts and you've been accused of systematically breaking the rules, I don't see how the city owners and the directors can stay. You know, in normal business in the UK, if you've submitted false accounts, then that will lead to being suspended as a director, barred from being a director for a number of years. People will talk about and have to put the city perspective, you know, the Man City fans will say, well, why should the Glazers be allowed to rack up a billion dollars of debt at Man United and get away with it? Is that not an unfair advantage?

8:58You could argue it is. But the Glazers came in and when they bought the club, they were allowed to do it because the rules were in place to stop it. Now the football regulator is in place to prevent that happening. So the rules are already being tightened up and made more stringent. So I guess if City are ultimately punished, then this would close a chapter on an era of Premier League football whereby too many things are allowed to go wrong. But they have been closed in the loopholes in recent years and this is the ultimate, probably the final loophole, if it ever gets closed. They will be stripped of all their titles during this period, Ogi?

9:31Is that pretty much a given? That's a question, Matt, because I think that is likely. Look, if an Olympic sprinter wins the 100 metres and he gets stripped of the win because he's a drug cheat, he has to hand the medal back. So it does happen in sport. But it's whether they strip the titles and reallocate them to somebody else or whether they just put an asterisk next to Man City's name and strip the titles but they don't reallocate the titles. So I think in Italy, when the Juventus scandal kicked off almost 20 years ago, those titles were reallocated. But there's no desire that I'm aware of within the game to hand those titles to United, Liverpool and Arsenal, who are the clubs that would have missed out.

10:10Let's talk about that from a player's perspective, Theo. If you represent the Liverpools or Manchester United, who could have benefited from Manchester City being stripped? As a player, how desperate are you to see justice done? I mean it doesn't change the fact on you know the celebrations and that side of things and the games and all these games now they void you know if we just kind of look at these games and feel like I've never lost against Man City however as a player you probably got to consider like for instance me I've never won the Premier League if there's an opportunity where there's a chance where I could win it and actually be able to physically touch it because with the rules as well with the Premier League you can't actually physically touch it if you haven't won the league i would take that why not however it's still for me to strip them off it i don't i'm not a big believer in reallocating it to the team who finished second to be honest i just feel like it's that it doesn't change the day it doesn't change the years that's happened it's just it's just really disappointing but i do i do feel and i agree i feel it's going to take a long time because they're going to want to stretch this out but players with certain perspectives as well it's going to be a difficult time for the current players the ones that have just moved there as well particularly because now they're going to be a bit unsure what's going to be happening next i'm sure these international breaks the players have been chatting amongst themselves and thinking what is going on as players you wouldn't be aware of this at all you just wouldn't and you wouldn't consider the damage that it's going to cause and continues to cause but you know and then i put a flip on the head and i look at a younger academy side of things i think it's an opportunity now for me to now and try and show myself if we end up getting relegated but yeah i feel like that is going to be the term and factor uh and it's actually like i said it's disappointing but sad i i can't see man city not in the premier league though that's the disappointing but i feel like they're gonna have to kick be kicked out i really do it's interesting i don't think i've heard a player yet who was like yeah i'd really celebrate yeah i'd really celebrate finishing second and then being kind of promoted to first by default

12:10Frank Leboeuf:that's just the professional mentality it is and it's from from a player's perspective it's a very much in the moment thing. You win the title, you feel you've earned that on the field, you celebrate, you go on your open top boss tour, and then all of a sudden, within a couple of months, you have to kind of retool for the next season. It's euphoric, it doesn't last long, and then you move on pretty quickly. So to be given, or to be kind of granted a title some 15 years on from when it would have been. From a player's perspective, it's flat. That's not how you want to win a title. This only takes on some value to fans of those clubs who maybe want to argue about who's got more Premier League titles or the other.

12:59Frank Leboeuf:From a player's perspective, that's not our concern. I don't think it's any kind of settlement. It doesn't do any good for you. Even if they give you a medal and say, this is for whatever year, there's no emotional attachment to it. When you win the league, you do think about all the highs, the lows. You hear managers talking about, well, we went through it, but we came out the other side. Those are all the emotions that you get during the season. And it finishes off with that last game when you win the title and you get the trophy. so to just be handed a medal 10 years later or 15 years later there's no emotional attachment to it at all it really just doesn't mean anything OK, what international break you out?

13:51You didn't have any holidays, Brad? I will say that, sorry guys Oh yeah, go on Theo Well I will say guys, sorry I will say, when your name pops up and it says you made over 300 appearances for Arsenal in the English Premier League I can't take that to be fair the way it looks on the screens but yeah, no, I get it I get why players wouldn't want to it's kind of a secondary thought, isn't it? But yeah, sorry, continue No, no, no. Oggy, I saw you on Paul Scholes' podcast off flirting with him. They said that seemed to be the same mentality. Yeah, I mean, he was joking about wanting to sue Man City for his win bonus for winning the title in 2012 when City won it.

14:28But yeah, I mean, players have a professional pride that they don't want to be given medals for nothing. And I think there's a bit of a solidarity. I'm kind of surprised by that solidarity with the City players that they've earned it on the pitch. I don't buy that the City players went to City not knowing that the club was under a cloud. I mean, come on, if you're a footballer, you kind of think, well, have Man City got to where they are when they're not as big as Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, etc.? But I don't know, maybe they just believed that it was being done in a way that wasn't breaking the rules.

14:55I don't know. But, you know, I think the issue that is attached to this is that I don't think the titles will be reallocated. But what will happen here is that when this is exhausting in City, if they're found guilty, that we already know that Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham have lodged a legal right to take action against City for loss of earnings. And they could run into£100 million each because that is based on the fact that, for instance, one year that United missed out on qualifying for the Champions League by one point to Man City, I think it was in 2016-17. So that year that they missed out on qualifying for the Champions League, it would have cost them, say,£50 million.

15:33Sponsorship revenue would have dipped. They would have missed out on games in the Champions League at Old Trafford. So you can see where this is going. Man United will do that. Liverpool might do that. Right now, Burnley have sued Everton for£40 million because Burnley were relegated on the season. Everton were fined, I think, eight points by the Premier League because they were£19 million over their PSR spending limit. And Burnley sued them for£40 million. I mean, you can't imagine what sort of fees we're talking about with Man City here over nine years. Teams that almost won the Premier League but didn't.

16:02Teams that almost qualified for the Champions League but didn't. teams that are relegated because of a result against Man City, players, I mean, it is a joke, but there'll be players that are thinking, well, I've been done out of a million pounds in a bonus here. I want my money back. So I don't see where these legal cases might end. So the medals can be, the titles can be reallocated. I don't think they will be. But the financial nightmare that faces Man City if they lose this, it's probably why they're so desperate to fight it right to the bitter end because it won't just end with the Premier League's punishment.

16:30That will be the start of even more problems. To Oggy's, one of his initial points, Theo, if City came knocking to you when you were at Arsenal, offering you a massive sum of money and a big wage rise, are you really going to say, could I just have a look at your books, please, just to make sure everything's in order? I mean, no, you wouldn't, because you just want to go to the club, wouldn't you, and just play. You wouldn't really consider that. But you would then have the people around you that would be doing that side of it for you. However, if you're really invested in the contract side of things to want to know exactly what's going on as players you need to take control and responsibility and look at it really deeply instead of maybe trusting certain people so like i say i think corners would have been cut maybe because players sometimes just want to leave people to it and get everything to be done for them and like i said instead of taking that accountability and responsibility so yes i agree some players might not be or choose to not to believe it anyway and kind of see a blind eye at it, maybe.

17:26But they just want to play football. But it's going to be sad to see what happens next, to be honest. But I do feel it's going to take a long, long time. And I agree, this needs to be resolved this year, because like you guys said, they could win the league.

17:38Frank Leboeuf:Yeah, exactly. Let me just say, no player is bothered about whether the club can prove it or not. And to Theo's point, listen, if you do get your agents involved to have a look at this, I think it's more from a concern that to make sure they can pay me for the entirety of my contract, not whether they're breaching financial fair play or not. If you offer me some ridiculous salary, I just want to make sure I can get paid for the three years of my contract or whatever. Outside of that, nothing to do with me. Doesn't surprise me. Mark Ogden, thank you very much. Much appreciated. If you want more from Oggy, he's done a special edition of ESPN FC on YouTube along with James Olley.

18:17Rob's there as well, Mark Donaldson hosting. Be sure to check that out.

18:26England registered their first victory in the Nations League as they beat Czechia by two goals to nil. Czechia reduced to ten men early on in the game. England looking to take advantage of that. They had to wait till the second half though. Early on, Anthony Gordon making it 1-0. And then Harry Kane, as always, right place, right time, would guarantee the win. Welcome back. Theo Walcott is with us. Theo, what was your takeaway from today's game? I always feel that these games are always difficult because people expect England to win. three, four, five goals. However, the first, you could tell how the game was going to go in the first 15 minutes because how structured, you know, Jackie were, but how slow the tempo was for England.

19:06And that's the disappointing side of things. And if anything, it's disappointing to have to play against 10 men because they still don't really have a feel for how England are going to perform going forward. Because you look at the Spain game, you know, how energetic in, you know, front foot football and fast tempo. and it was just completely opposite in first off. So obviously, Tuchel had a right word with them and made some substitutions. Because I always feel when you go down to a play against 10 men, the opposition always ends up taking off certain people to counter out of that. But why don't we make a more positive out there and think, right, let's maybe take Lewis Skelly off and bring on someone like a Scott or a Bellingham just to have the numbers a bit higher up in the field because they're going to obviously sit back and then it's going to be very difficult.

19:48But there's no doubt they weren't going to win because the second I had to improve. But I'm pleased with Trent. I'm really pleased with him because I think a lot of people would want him to fail today. I just get that impression back home in England that people really want him to struggle. And I'm pleased that he's had a good performance tonight. Yes, not tested. However, he's reliable. He can be reliable. And particularly when you have so much of the ball, he's going to dominate. Simple as that. That's his strength. But I still do worry about England defensively because at times, Czech, it did get us on the count.

20:20and I understand we're committing a lot of bodies forward, but it's pleasing to see Gordon, who's really enjoying his football, and that's just been the missing link for him in scoring goals, and he's starting to do it now in the Wimper. So it's really, really good to see. Talk to me about Harry Kane, Theo. Yeah, well, like you said, he's just there at the right time, isn't he? But there are the finishes that he just practice constantly. But when I say he practices, he doesn't just go through the motions and expect it. He's game, like speed, match practice is so important to him, the repetition, but it's, like I say, it's creating those good habits.

20:54And when you train with him, I've been close and personal with him and seen him do it, it's so detailed. But not just that, other players feed off it. So when you have Harry Kane doing it at some level, you get the younger players that want to be like this as well. So he's only going to bowl well, and that's why he's, for me, Ballon d 'Or I do feel like he's going to have to win it being English but he's been great but again I would look at the other side as well and think why didn't Dominic Camillou come on tonight maybe just to see something different because we can't just always rely on Harry Kane come the Euros in a couple of years time in the World Cup of course is he going to be at the level we don't know right now we tried obviously two false nines with Bellingham and Rodgers towards the end we need to see what's next so these are the opportunities where Tuchel can try it and be bold and brave.

21:43But he's just incredible. He's the amount of goals he's scored in the middle. Would he score against you, Zach? Would he score against you? No. Silly question. No chance. No chance. No chance. No chance. It's only because Shaq is old. That's what I was about to say. Don't be mistaken by Shaq's youthful looks. He's an old man. Obviously, maybe in the second half, it would be nice to throw on someone like Cole Palmer to add a little bit of spark against 10 men. And it's quite open, isn't it, what's happened between him and Thomas Tuchel, since Tuchel didn't take him to the World Cup. Obviously, he was managing his minutes, is what Chelsea have said, in the fact that he didn't answer the call-up this time round for the first time since the in-squad has gathered since he wasn't included in the squad.

22:31And Theo, it's interesting, you look back at your career, and everyone talks about 2006, and probably we will later on, But you look at 2010, when arguably you're in some of the best form that you had, and yet Fabio Capello decides not to take you to the World Cup. Obviously, you weren't in the same situation as Cole Palmer because Capello was sacked, and you said, good, we heard afterwards. No, we didn't. No, we didn't. But a couple of things. First, you've spoken about the manner in which Capello didn't include you in the squad. Just remind us of that story. well I will remind you when he was actually sacked I was at a restaurant where he was at actually to be honest and I actually remember going up to him shaking his hand and just he was having a good night so it must have been a good payoff but anyway on on that World Cup yeah it was it was tough because I played every qualifier I played particularly well I was having a really good season and it was really hard to actually understand why you know you don't get selected into a World Cup squad but the the disappointing thing for me personally is I I didn't ever have a reason.

23:36And trying to get the reasoning out of, you know, Kepel at the time was very difficult. I just couldn't get it. I wouldn't have a normal conversation like you would, you know, to think about, okay, what, you know, what am I doing wrong? What I don't need to do. There was none of that. And that's the side of it, which has definitely changed. I feel now in the kind of management side of things with players, they want to know. They want to be open and honest. They just, that's what they want to hear. And that was tough. However, the best way to react is how you react the following season. I had a really good year.

24:01but Cole Palmer has played a lot of football and I get it. He's had a couple of summers now playing. And what worries me as well, I'm looking on the outside and I look at Bakar Saka at the moment and he's played a lot of football for his age as well and I just don't see the dynamic and the kind of the same player I've seen for recent years. I'm not saying Cole Palmer's going to be like that but he's obviously looking after himself because he wants a bit of longevity going into it. However, he's not, will he outgrow too, I'm sure, in time? but you know there must be something not right with Cole Palme if you can you know just to play through your country is really important and Cole wouldn't pull out of him for no reason so he obviously has a legitimate reason to pull out it's disappointing because there's an opportunity there for him to obviously play and it's an easy option now for Tuchel when it comes to England call-ups I'm not going to call him out again on it so it's it's a tricky place for him but like I said going back to Bakasaka he's played a lot of football and I think he wants to protect himself in that way as well and look I don't mind players speaking up themselves instead of holding it in because sometimes players, they kind of don't want to show their characters.

25:03And I think Cole Palmer, you can see that. He's very different, isn't he? I always feel. If Capello was still in charge after that World Cup and then called you to a squad, would you second-guess yourself at all? In respect of going? No, I would be straight there, of course. You wouldn't hold it against him? You wouldn't be like, I'm not going to play for this manager anymore considering the way he's treated me? No, not at all. No, not at all, because I always feel like it's going back to your pride as a professional athlete as well, and your family and your personal goals. You want to represent your country as well and be with your teammates and enjoy playing football.

25:39You want to enjoy playing. And I feel every time you put on English, it's the best thing. Goodness me, it's an incredible feeling. And to play at Wembley, all these memories just flowing through my mind now. So, quite frankly, it wouldn't really matter who's in charge because, you know, you're really representing yourself to some extent as well when you represent your country, I believe.

26:05Spain. Perfect. Another great performance from them. Laminia, a couple of goals and an assist as they would beat Croatia by four goals to one to top the table. Theo, it's interesting. You mentioned before about like Saka looking a little bit flat, not having that same sort of energy. normally you associate with a player at the start of the season. Lamin Amal just defies all odds, plays all the time, plays brilliantly. And anyone who talks about red zones or tiredness, it's very much the opposite argument. Yeah, I mean, you look at his kind of career to this point, yes, he's played loads of football.

26:40However, you know, the league's a different kind of animal. I'm not disregarding the Spanish league. However, you know, they obviously have the winter break side of things as well. I think the demanding side of things in the Premier League, the amount of work, that rate that you're going to have to do off the ball as well. I think when you have these kind of players, you've got to look after them. They're going to win you the game, so you have the players around them that's going to do the other bits that they don't really want to do. However, watching him at Wembley, he was doing all those things still.

27:06And I love the fact he just plays that freedom and that energy. And it's just effortless. It's beautiful to watch. And he plays his own tempo. So that everyone, that fear now that everyone has when he picks up the ball is scary to watch. But you just see the excitement as well with even the England fans wanting to do well against England. It's just because there's not many opportunities. You are in that space with those players. And I share the pitch with, you know, Lina Messi and Ronaldo's, but this kid is just incredible. And I love watching him play. You know, even like the young I do as well.

27:37You know, I love these younger wingers that start to come back a little bit now, which, yeah, he's blossoming right now. It's incredible to see. It really is. Theo, you hit the headlines as a teenager, like 20 years on. What advice would you give Lamin-Yamal in the situation that he's in, getting all that attention at such a young age already? To be honest, I was so on our doors, I have a lot of time for people. So I feel like he is that side of it as well. I mean, I saw videos of himself having pictures with Declan Rice's son. I know it's behind closed doors and all this, but that's really nice because he has that time, particularly for the younger generation.