Out of This World From Olise

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0:34Hello and welcome into the latest edition of ESPN FC. Kay Murray and Stevie Nichol here in the studio with more Nations League action to talk you through, including the game that we saw between Belgium and France. Zinedine Zidane with his troops back in action. No Kylian Mbappe who's injured, and it looked as though this game was going to end 0-0. But then Michael Alisse came off the bench and did his magic to score in the 88th. It is a 1-0 win for France and a perfect start for Zinedine Zidane that has them with two wins from two and six points on the board in Ligue 1, Group 1. Let's welcome in Frank Leboff and Mario Melchiotte to talk more.

1:11Obviously, lots to pick out from that game, even though it was just the one goal, Frank. What stood out to you the most? Well, the bet from Zidane, you know, changing nine players on his second game as a national team coach, giving chances to very young players. You have to know that the four at the back, they had only in total 11 caps altogether. So that was kind of a challenge, but very well done. I mean, I enjoyed the game. It could have gone either way the last 20 minutes, I would say. Belgium woke up in the second half and tried to do something and they had some chances to score. But I enjoyed the game.

1:52I enjoyed everything I saw. D 'Acuna in the middle of the park, Juven Kaloulu on the side, Jacquet, great, solid with Lacra, very impressive, Douay at his best. Well, yes, you can say from both sides that this should have been a little bit more precise and they've been a little bit clumsy on the finishing. But again, I enjoyed the way that France played second half, they pushed Belgium, were dropping back, But that was a great game to watch. He was missing only the goals. But at the end, Michael Alissé showed all his talent to give those three points to France. Didn't he just, Frank? How good is he, Michael Alissé?

2:36Well, you know what? The guy is an alien. I mean, he knows exactly what he has to do. It was like when he came on, you know, Zidane was talking to him. And I said, is he listening to him? I don't know. Maybe he's from another planet. He doesn't even understand when people talk to him. It's like when he has press conferences where he doesn't want to answer questions. The guy is insanely magical. That's what it is. His first touch with his elbow pushes the ball, then going with the right foot, cutting exactly what he has to do, cutting the defender run, and after it's just perfect. I mean, the feeling, the left foot, open his left foot and curves it.

3:19that's just pure talent. You cannot even explain. And I'm not sure he can explain how he does. It's natural for him.

3:27Gab Marcotti:I'll tell you what, he actually could be an alien. If his elbow's up here, he could be an alien. Mario, other than pray, Mario, what do you do when you're up against a player like Alisse as a defender? Wow. It's difficult. You know why? Because what Frank just said, you know, like, I don't know if you even like, the best players, I think, and when you feel the best as an individual is when you don't have to prep. When you don't have to prep too much, you come into the game and you just play that game. He looks like that. He looks like a player that, you know, he doesn't think. He just gets on the ball, even when his players are in problem there.

4:03Like, there was one moment when he came on, he dropped really low to pick up the ball. He received the ball from one of the defenders, and he saw the problem and the difficulty for the player already. Before, maybe the player didn't even know. He turned open and he just said, yeah, give me the ball. And he dribbled inside the pitch. And for me, you know, like what Frank just said about Zidane, I saw that moment when he was talking to him. He's literally watching in front of him. And Zidane is talking to him. He's standing next to him. He's just literally like watching the game. And Zidane puts his hand in front of his mouth because he want to keep it more between them.

4:37And you just see the game carry on. And all he says is just watching. Like he's probably hearing it. He can hear him because he will never disrespect him not hearing him. But you can literally see a player that is, I know what I'm going to do, coach. Thank you for your info. But don't worry, when I come on, I'll make sure I make you smile. And he clearly did. Is that what it is, Stevie? You know what you're going to do anyway?

5:00Gab Marcotti:Well, somebody like Alise does. Yeah, 100%. You know, in terms of how do you defend against that? You know, I was talking about the composure that he showed at the finish. What he does is he makes defenders lose their composure. Because with somebody like him, you need to get numbers. and one needs to cover one side, and the other defender has to cover the inside. And if you do that, you've got a chance. But if you lose your composure, and both of them end up doing nothing, the ball ends up in the back of the net. So it's one thing to know what to do. It's another thing to actually do it on the field when it's gone so quick.

5:35Absolutely. Frank, you mentioned Jacquet. He looks like he belongs there in this French side. With that, sorry? Jacquet, you mentioned him. Looking good, looking like a good fit here. You know what? I was checking where he was coming from and how Liverpool got that treasure. I mean, the guy is simply so mature for his age. He knows exactly he has composure. Defensively, he's strong. Offensively, he's precise. It looks like, and I can say the same with Lacroix, who only played for Crystal Palace with all due respect last season. But those guys, they feel mature. They feel old. Experience, sorry, experience.

6:19That's insane. And Jacque, I mean, we saw the beginning with Liverpool. We said, okay, it's coming good, but a little bit shaky. Five games after, the guy is in position. He knows exactly what to do. Plays for the national team. He knows exactly what to do. I was checking in the tunnel before the game. It was just behind Mike Meynier, the guy at a poker face. He knew exactly what to do. I'm very impressed with that new generation of guys coming in, being very young, not being scared. I mean, I would have been, I don't know, how old is he, 19 maybe? I would have been him with the national team.

6:53I would have been shaky, I can tell you. Those guys, they don't know that.

6:58Gab Marcotti:You know, as a coach, he's the type of guy you want as a defender because there's no frills. He just gets it done. and you don't even have to think twice about it. Whenever the ball comes in his area or he's involved in it, the only thing you know is he's going to get it done. And to sit on the side and be the coach and he's on your team and you know that's going to happen, it's absolutely fantastic for the coach. Yeah, he's 21. Surely it's because he came from Ren Mario. There you go. People might not know, but if I tell you, Guys, please, everybody. When you're young and you need to pick a club in France, of course, if you're not going to the top boys, go to Rennes, my friend.

7:47Why? When I went there, it was one of the best choices I made in my career because I went there and the focus in Rennes, why there are so many talents to play from? Even like what Frank just talked about. But Douai comes from there. Then Baylor comes from there. Why? Because that city, it's about football. Yeah, LePaul that just got selected his first. So what the thing is, it's a city. Everybody knows each other. It's also that the whole city goes to the game and watches Rennes play. But the key thing from that is there is nothing else to do than play football. And I think that's the best for your development.

8:25Because all the other distractions you don't have. So if you don't do well as a player, it's your own mistake. That's how I see it. I was there this year. I went there. I went to the club. I sat down. You know, like saw some of the older players. It was just a beautiful place to be. And what we're talking about the talent, just let's not carry on with the city, but I'm just thinking about the talent. When I watch Dua play, that's one of my favorites, and I enjoy him play. And the way he handles that ball, and the way he turns, and even today, when you see him turning around and how he plays, of course, he could be more crucial in finishing his goals off.

8:58But as a player, he has grown so far. So for me, you understand, watching them, I mean, I'm not French-ranked, But I do love your country the way they play football, my friend. This is the place to learn to develop at Rennes then, Frank. Yes, it is. It is like clubs like Nantes as well. And even Paris Saint-Germain. Paris Saint-Germain puts out lots of good kids. The problem is they have no room when they go up there. But otherwise, you can see lots of kids coming from the academy. But Rennes is beautiful. I mean, the only problem with Rennes is in Brittany. and I'm from Normandy, so we hate each other.

9:38And even if we love each other, you know, it's like English and French. But yeah, it's a great club. They develop very big talent, but it's kind of general in France. You can see lots of talent coming and going and being very effective everywhere they play. Okay, let's move on to talk about some news that's come out today. After what we saw in the game between Norway and Portugal when there was a late challenge from Bernardo Silva on Martin Odegaard, and he said afterwards, it's a head fog from him. He just kicks me down long after I've played the ball away. I don't understand what he's doing.

10:14It does not belong on a football pitch. It's a shame that people do that. Now, a lot of people were upset with this challenge, Stevie. We're going to take a look at it now. And you can see that it is late on in the game. What did you make of this and what Odegaard had to say afterwards?

10:32Gab Marcotti:people have been doing that for 100 years the guy Odegaard had taken the mickey out of Portugal for the majority of this game particularly in the attacking third and it took too long for somebody to do that to him to be quite frank with you does it matter that it's at the end of the game like this no absolutely not it's a little reminder next time we see each other you can have some more I mean please don't kick me, it's not fair I don't know what he's thinking about I mean that sounds like a guy who wants plenty of time and space on the ball so he can do what he wants and Bernardo Silva just give him a little reminder that when I'm playing I'm not going to stand off and let you play that's all it is.

11:15Are you okay with it Mario? Look what Stevie's saying is exactly, I broke my foot two times I come back to the Chelsea training ground they're just kicking me, everybody's kicking me And I'm thinking like, guys, take it easy on me. But that was an introduction to me. Kid, you might be 22 years old, but we don't care. And that's the same what's happening. Look, you are very talented and you play in England. You know, this is not the first kick he gets. The only thing it is, maybe international football is less aggressive like this. Because sometimes it's more tactical and we're thinking about it.

11:50But Silva has experienced enough. He knows how to, you know, put his foot down, make his mark and say like, kid, Listen, I like what you're doing. You try to control the game the way you want to because he plays for Arsenal and for his country similar in the sense of how he carries the ball and how he dribbles around. But Silva had enough of it. He's like, no, you're playing against me. I'm going to show you too. Frank, Jan Agafjatov's not too happy with what he saw. He said it was a disgrace. He said Odegaard was limping for five minutes after that. What did you think of it? Yeah, but nowadays it could be a red card for sure.

12:25You know, we can see everything. And, and, and, and, but in our time, other guys would have lasted like five minutes and would have, would have for, for, for, for substitution. And it's why you had strikers and players like, you know, in your photo, if you are strong, strong robotic guys, you know, very strong. And, and that was, that was the, the game of a, of a striker. But sometimes you get fed up. I've been punched in the face. I mean, I broke my nose four times, my eyes once, you know, my bone eye. That was the game before. And when we see that, it's, as Stevie said, it's been there for 100 years.

13:02It's like that. And it's a way to play football. And if you play too much, like, I want to be protected, and I'm too technical for you, we're going to smash you in the face. That's the problem. Because we feel that you tease us. And we don't like to be teased. And that's what it is. And you are punished. That's a very strong game. and maybe unfair, but it's how we deal with other people, maybe more talented than us.

13:31Gab Marcotti:I will revert to my old coach again, Ronnie Moran, who would actually have said to Odegaard, well, if you'd given the ball earlier and don't let him get too close, you wouldn't have got kicked. Poor Martin Odegaard is not going to get any sympathy here with tonight's panel on ESPN FC. Make sure to stay up to date with all the stories that we do have here on the show over on our YouTube channel. Click subscribe while you're there.

14:23Why would I do this and start giving the players the impression that it's okay to take a step back or share a half or to rest one match? I would never. It's madness. An ideal scenario would be to go again and go again and go again with six or seven players minimum that start again to put the responsibility on them and for them to feel the trust. So much has been made of this, Stevie, when we're seeing rotations, when we're seeing the importance now of the Nations League. What do you think of what Thomas Tuchel's had to say about this?

14:55Gab Marcotti:I am 100 % behind Thomas Tuchel. Thomas Tuchel's got a job to do. What's the difference between... If he loses games, he loses his job. It's the very same as all the other club managers. I mean, what would happen if Thomas Tuchel phoned up one of the club managers and said, look, we're playing Brazil on Tuesday. Can you leave Declan Rice or Cole Palmer or anybody else who's actually playing, can you leave them out on Saturday because we were playing Brazil on Tuesday. Don't worry, he'll leave the ball around. They'd laugh at him and say, well done, I see that kid. You're having to laugh. So, I'm with Thomas Tuchel.

15:28Gab Marcotti:Thomas Tuchel's got to win games. So, get after Thomas as far as I'm concerned. I mean, Zidane rotated. Nine changes for Zidane, Frank. Yes, yes. But I think because he did it on purpose, not to protect the others. It's because he wanted to try new players. And I'm with Stevie, I'm 100 % with Thomas Tuchel, and I'm fed up with a rotation system where player needs to be protected. You know, I checked how many miles a game Declan Rice runs. It does like seven miles a game. At the end of my career, at 35 years old, I was running six miles a game, and I was a sweeper. And I'm sure, and I checked, Emmanuel Petit and Patrice Villar were running eight miles a game and never asked for a rotation.

16:19They wanted to play 38 games in the Premier League, plus European games with Arsenal, plus the tournament with national team. What is that thing about players just wanting to rest? Play, play, shut up, play. And coaches, shut up, don't call too early. Let's do him his job, you know. I'm fed up with those lazy system where everybody wants to rest. No, you don't rest. You play, you shut up. Mario, I think more has been made of it because this is a longer international window that we're seeing. There's already so many games. There's a risk of burnout. Obviously, it can cause some friction between the club and the country.

16:58Where do you stand on it? I stand on this. Look, as an individual, you always want to represent your country. That's just always going to happen. But you have one coach who's going to, like how the guy said, one coach is going to care about the club because that is what is going to focus on him. The other one is going to care about his country. So at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual. You as a player need to make sure that, hey, you want to play 100 percent. You want to show yourself 100 percent. And when you feel something, it's up to you sometimes to protect yourself. Away from that, play all the games.

17:29Because when I was playing and I got called up by my national team, I didn't think about, oh, no, today I'm not going to play. I wanted to play all the games because that's why we play football. And that's why I feel like the players individually, they also sometimes have to open their mouth in the sense of like, if the coach wants to rest, you don't want to rest, say it. I don't want to rest. I'm good. And if it's the other way around, you got to say it. And that's why for me now, I understand Tuchel calling up coaches. So that means that he's going to call them now. And then when they go back to the club, now that coach is going to call them and say like, Tuchel can call him up and say, hey, can you make sure that the last two games he doesn't play?

18:07Because then he's fresher when he comes to me. Nah, that's not going to happen. No, no, no. That's stupidity. Don't do that. OK, let's get more from Thomas Tuchel speaking about Jude Bellingham. And Jude's temperament as well on the pitch. He says, it's better if he plays with a bit of rage. It's what he does. I think sometimes he is looking for these moments to get his fire going. He doesn't know any Madrid teammates during an international game. He is still friends with them, but not for the 90 minutes. So I suppose you're looking at here for a manager, Stevie, how you find the balance, if you're the manager of Jude Bellingham, between that competitive fierce drive that he has and ensuring he channels it in the right areas against the opponent, like he's mentioned before, and not getting in the referee's book and getting himself annoyed at other teammates.

18:54Gab Marcotti:Yeah, well, I think that's part of the player's responsibility in terms of maturing. And clearly Tuchel is now quite happy to talk about Jude Bellingham this way. Because I'm pretty sure after the last exchange they had when he was talking about him to his mum, clearly they've talked that through. And yeah, it's horses for courses. Some players need a kick up the backside. Some people need an arm around the shoulder. And he has just understood that when Jude Bellingham takes a little bit of a hump, then that's when we get the best out of them. So as a manager, you try and wind somebody up before they go out so you get the best out of them.

19:36Gab Marcotti:So, yeah, I have no problem with that. How does he do that, though? Again, it's individuals. You have to figure out where's that spot that you need to press to get somebody going. Or the opposite way around, you know. You also have to be able to turn around to somebody and calm them down. And so that is, again, I was talking about it last week, about the man management side of it. You can have the tactics and you can have all the... You can have every single facet of the game. But if your manager doesn't understand his players, then you're not going to get the best out of them. So, 100%. Mario?

20:15Yeah, no. I mean, I played with Frank. So, playing with Frank, when we were at Chelsea, for example, there was one player in our team, he was always complaining. But he wasn't complaining because something went wrong. He needed that little fire in him. No, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbeck, you don't give him the ball. The guys are complaining, I'm telling you. It looked like, you know, I will say this. We had one ball on the field, and he wanted that ball every minute. You don't give him the ball one second? I'm telling you, Kay, the guy makes you feel like you're his biggest enemy. I'm like, dude, the game just started two minutes ago.

20:53And he kicks off because he needed us to... And me and him start swearing after two seconds because he goes, why don't you play it to me? I said, it does not work like that in football. I cannot give you every ball. There are other players. We play with 11 players. He didn't want to know anything about that. And I'm sure Frank had the similarity to it. The guy would scream and complain all the time. Frank, hey? Yeah. Well, it's like when I don't talk, you know, I'm getting impatient. So on the field, I need it all the more. otherwise I was getting bored. But going back to what Stevie just said, it's crucial.

21:29A coach won't teach you how to play football. We all know how to play football. He will do a man management to make sure that you stick to a system, to a tactic. But also the coach's job is to exactly know all characters and all personalities. And that's how you can manage a squad and how you work with them. And it's true. Me, I had coaches who almost punched me in the face to make sure that I would be so upset that I would give my best game. And I had the other way with Ruud Gullit, was my coach, but my friend as well, that I could give my life because I trusted him. That was two different kind of coaches that I had and suited me.

22:11But some, and maybe Bellingham is like that, some players, they need to fight in their life in order to get everything that they have in their course. So it's very important for the coach to know that and to know every player very well. Who did you play with Stevie that had this about them where they needed to get that rage to go and do their best?

22:34Gab Marcotti:Oh. I'll tell you, there was one guy who, when he got angry, he didn't want anything to do with him. Graeme Sorenes. And I'm talking about our team, not the opposition. Because as soon as he got fired up, he made sure he got into every single one of us. And so then we were fired up. So that's controlled race. That's what that is. But as I said, the opposition didn't want to get him upset. But I'll tell you what, we didn't want to get him upset more than them. Because we knew we would get it from him. Mario, was there something you wanted to say before I asked Stevie that? No, because you know what the guys are saying is like every individual from us has a coach that can get under our skin.

23:22I don't think Stevie I can guarantee you, Frank I can guarantee you that there is a coach right and we're sitting in the dressing room sometimes you're sitting at halftime and you just want to blow up he only has to say one word and you're like you're already angry and then you go on the field. And that coach, I think the person that can do that the best way, that's for me the best coach. Because he knows how to fire things up. I had it, for example, as a young boy. Fogal used to say that to me. He said, hey, you're a talent. You played three games. Now you're not a talent anymore. Now you got to show me if you're a good player.