Proper Punishment for Man City?

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1:05Welcome in to the latest edition of ESPN FC. I'm Dan Thomas, joined by Craig Burley and Stevie Nichol. Later on in the show, we are reflecting on a couple of big Nations League games today, but we'll kick things off with the news that is still reverberating around the world. Of course, Manchester City being charged with 114 discrepancies. We're awaiting what will happen to them. A lot of speculation, a lot of time I imagine will pass before we find exactly what is going to happen to City. but it hasn't just been in the UK. It has been global news. And to give us a perspective from France and Germany, Frank Leboeuf is with us, as is Archie Rintup.

1:38We'll be hearing from them in a minute. But Craig, this is the first time you've been on since you've been found guilty of these 114 charges. There's not much to say. I don't know. It's a farce. It's a legal process. It has to be appealed. It's a farce. I've genuinely been bored of this whole thing since day one. If it is true they're cheating, there has to be a punishment. I don't know what that is. I have no idea. And I'm not into, oh, then we go back and give everybody their titles. It's just a mess. And it doesn't look well in the Premier League. It certainly doesn't look well on Man City.

2:17But it has become, and it's going to continue to be a farce going forward. So, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, cheating is cheating. I don't like, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't like all these. Whenever we talk about profit and sustainability, I just switch off. I just don't like it. I think it's a very difficult scenario to police properly all of the time. You have some clubs allegedly cheating. You have other clubs saddling themselves with debt to try and win trophies. So where are we right and wrong? I don't, yeah it's I think this is one for the journalists really to be honest if they're cheating whatever the punishment, if it is if an appeal, if they lodge an appeal and it fails, and I don't know that they have to take, and I don't know what the punishment would be, but they have to take whatever's coming their way, right, now it's just too easy to say relegate them, relegate them to where?

3:16relegate them to the championship, who moves out? who moves out of league one? Who moves out of the league? It's a very complex scenario that I really don't have the answer to, but it certainly doesn't sit well with Man City. And it certainly doesn't sit well with this holier-than-holy, we are the greatest league in the World Premier League, by the way. Archie, what's been said in Germany about it all? So it's not been the same attention in Germany, because right now everything is about Jurgen Klopp. Jurgen Klopp getting off the bus in Augsburg for the game tonight was, well, look, we panned to the cameras here and there he is.

3:56Anything to do with Jurgen Klopp is ruling. It has been noted, but I would say it's more of a side note right now. The interesting thing is that no one's asked Jurgen Klopp about it in a press conference yet. Before the Greece game yesterday, for example, no one posed a question to him because it's relevant, given the fact that his Liverpool team would have added at least, I think, one more Premier League title. So I'm sure that we will be hearing from him about it in the coming weeks still. Frank, France? Well, you know, we'll follow Archie. You know, it's all about Zidane right now. Not really Manchester City.

4:31And on top of it, for the past two days, we have on top of it the pop being in the France soil. So we don't really care about Manchester City. L 'Equipe made some comments two days ago explaining all the charges. it's mostly social network newspapers talking about it but overall down the streets nah that's not an event I think everybody is waiting for the statement and the verdict but otherwise it's only speculation right now That's cast iron proof that the world doesn't revolve around the Premier League as big as it is and as well as it has done to sell its rights and it has been the best by a long stretch at marketing by a long, long way.

5:18It was way out ahead of everybody else. Hence the global reach and hence the scramble, particularly in the UK for the rights, but also around the world by networks to get the rights. However, my opinion is that the standard of the Premier League has been dwindling and this does absolutely nothing to deter people from looking at not only the quality, but the integrity. and how Man City have handled themselves, but how the Premier League have handled themselves through all this, and again, through all this profit and sustainability. And, you know, look, the rich clubs will always... I don't have the answer.

6:00I don't have the answer to, you know, whether it's just open up to anybody can buy a club, because people will say, well, that just means the rich will get rich. But that's happening anyway. And I was reading, I read Psalm today, in the last 100 years, pretty much every club within the Football League pyramids in England are still there. They've all had their financial difficulties. Most of them, one or two have fallen away. Most of them are still there. So they've all survived, even without all this. There's been the odd administration that they've come out of. But for the most part, all those clubs that were there 100 years ago are pretty much there now.

6:34So I don't think there's an easy answer to it. And this profit and sustainability seems to be really making a lot of grey areas. You have the Everton scenario from a year or two ago, where they were docked points and fined and blah, blah, blah. And then you have a Chelsea scenario. Now you have this crazy one with Man City, which seems to be going completely the other side of it, in terms of how many. It's a legal minefield, and I just don't think it does and it has done the Premier League. And whatever happens to City, happens to City. The Premier League will survive and fall without them. but it has not done their global marketing strategy and the fact that they're the biggest, the best and the cleanest and the league to watch has not done that any favours whatsoever.

7:23Rodri came out yesterday when he was asked about it, Steve, when he was talking about the fact that we were the ones on the pitch, we were the ones fighting together, we were the ones who were training every day. But they were the ones because of that reason. But as a player, do you sit back and go, No, no, you don't care. Yeah. They don't care you won the league. It really has nothing to do with the players. And if they turned around and said, OK, Liverpool get the 2008, whatever it is. I mean, the guys will get a medal, but in their head and in their heart, we didn't actually win it. But on paper, in black and white, it will be Liverpool won the league.

8:01So if you're part of that squad, you're not pushing? You're not desperate for this to go through so you can win it? No, because in your heart, you didn't win the league. You didn't win it, right. You didn't win it. So it's not... Everything's pretty straightforward. Because of the money, they bought better players than everybody else and they won the league. But as I said, that's got nothing to do with the players. So 100%, they don't deserve to be called the champions. And the question is, again, it kind of opens a can of worms. So the City players that got a medal, do they take the medals back?

8:39I mean, where does it end? That's the thing. The one thing I would say is they need to get rid of all these. The fact that it's taken so long, the fact that there's 114 that they're guilty of, there's too many rules. How about you must be able to make it simpler, set it up way simpler, then it's dead easy, it's straightforward, and it doesn't take three years to sort it out. In fact, guess what? 80 years ago, the guys who had more money than everybody else, that's how it was. And it was competitive, it was enjoyable. Why can't you go back to that? How many billionaires are there in the world? There's hundreds of them.

9:24So if they're all buying football clubs, then on you go. And then it comes down to the scouting. It comes down to the coaching. It comes down to all the other things. Instead of all this, it's getting ridiculous now. We've got Newcastle who apparently can't spend money that they've got. So the rules make no sense whatsoever. Change the whole set up. Otherwise, it's just going to carry on. The big clubs are still as big and getting bigger. Man United have saddled themselves with debt. That's their ownership. That's their issue. the big clubs are still the big clubs regardless of any rules Real Madrid are still Real Madrid I know they do it differently in Germany but Bayern Munich are still the top dogs and always will be in Germany it's Real Madrid, it's Barca it's still Man United and all these clubs it just has become too much of a mess for me and it's just opening up all these legal mindfulness we had a similar scenario in Scotland that came out years later, but it was actually going on when I was there, that Rangers were paying their players and were able to bring in players because they were paying way more than any other club in Scotland, particularly Celtic, who were their nearest rivals.

10:43And lo and behold, they won most of the leagues. They were then deducted, they were then relegated, went into administration and the club went out of business, blah, blah, blah, so I don't want to get into that. But they were sent down to the bottom of Scottish football. because of what happened. But, you know, and I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's basically being accused of the same thing. You're cheating. You're paying out with your means to bring players in that shouldn't be there. Stevie's right. It's got nothing to do with the players. Do you want to go to Man City? Do you want to be paid this amount?

11:14Yes, please. You want to go to Rangers? Be paid? Yes, please. You want to go and play in a successful team? That's it. It's ownership. It's management. It's financiers. And it's all those people that know what the rules are and it's their choice. It's nothing to do with the players. It's the players sometimes you feel sorry for, because those guys have gone out in the field and they've probably taken the word of the people at Man City and the people at Rangers and said, don't worry, everything's hunky-dory. They're not business people. They're footballers. They've got ages. How much am I getting paid?

11:45When do you want me at the training ground? What do you want from me? I want De Bruyne and this and that. The next thing, this is what I want. Vincent Kompany, I want this, this, this, and this, and we want to be successful. Thanks, boss. three bags full, let's get on with it. It's their job to run the business side of it. On the other side of it, people talking about taking away moments, I don't want to harp on about it, but you know I was there for the Aguero moment. I was there with Peter Drury doing the commentary. You can't ever take that moment away from a player. You can try as much as you want online and social media to just be deniers.

12:18But from a player's perspective, you can never take, and I'm already seeing it, Kupia threw the towel in, Kupia did this, I was there. This went down to the wire. I mean, you can't get that lucky. So from a football perspective, I feel sorry for the individuals involved across the board, be it Liverpool, United, any other club and Man City. In terms of the people running football and running Manchester City, this is whatever happens. This is on them. Frank? Yeah, you know, it makes me think of the AFCON final where people are saying that maybe Morocco can win the title, where, in fact, you play the game, and Hakim Itzay itself, the captain of Morocco, say, well, we lost on the field.

13:04And even if they give us the trophy, we lost. And it's what it is. It's on the field. And I want to take the example of Paris Saint-Germain as well, who have almost a country behind them. And they've been, according, well, nobody said that they've been cheating. They're good. They're going according to the rules. But they put money down. And Paris Saint-Germain became the biggest team in the world and pleasing everybody towards them. So it's hard, you know. You know, as Stevie said, you have billionaires everywhere. If they want to put money, money is going to talk. And it's always done that. It's always done that.

13:42And that's going to be very complicated to rule everything. Because if they want to put the money down, they're going to put the money down. And you could have teams like Fantastic City, Fantastic Paris Saint-Germain as well, with the money. And you cannot compete with something else against that. Archie, just as a fan, as a Fulham fan who's been there long-suffering watching other teams come in, big teams kind of by the Premier League, how do you feel about everything and the future of this league? Fulham haven't beaten Manchester City since 2009, Dan So finally we're going to get some vengeance For all those defeats we've had In all seriousness I'm just hearing what Craig says about the integrity And I agree But the thing I then go on from there is How meaningful is that damage to the integrity?

14:38Because are we saying that it will stop people watching the Premier League? I think that the soap opera of the Premier League and how that attracts so many people in week after week, whilst Manchester City are going to undergo a lot of damage should the guilty verdict stand, I think that the Premier League itself still remains so far ahead of any other league in the world when it comes to how many people watch it and how attractive it's seen as. the ship has sailed and because this has gone on for so long that actually that the further you go into the future the more that as as the boys are talking about there with okay but it happened and you can't take that away from them if it's happening maybe a year after it then i think that the damage can be done to the players but it's so far in the past that actually it's going to be difficult to find a punishment that really fits the size of this crime if you're in this manchester City score at the moment, are you looking for a way out?

15:38Well, I would imagine, and I say this because I don't know, I would imagine anybody worth a salt who's signed recently or has re-signed has a clause in the contract. Right? To say that... We all knew these charges were hanging over them. Correct. To say that if this turns out to be true and Manchester City are relegated or or sent to whatever it is, that there is an out for those players. As I said, I have no idea. And I'm not going to sit here and say, this should be done and that should be done. Because I have no idea what the right solution is. No, but if you're a player on this squad, are you speaking to your agent and saying, get me out of here?

16:22Listen, if they get stuck in League Two... But we don't... Well, let's say they get stuck in League Two. This is going to go on for a long time. There's going to be no resolution. But as a player, are you looking for an out as soon as possible before there's a resolution? Are you jumping ship, a la, I don't know, a Spanish manager? No. Not until you know what the punishment is. Because we don't know. If you don't know what the punishment is, and you don't know there's going to be a punishment, you know, I was listening to Xhaka laughing at the nonsense that was coming out of City that we're still backing ourselves that we haven't done anything wrong.

16:57I mean, really, you're having a laugh. But whilst right now Manchester City are playing in the Premier League, then as a player, it's just I'm still playing until I find out that we're in League Two, for example. Now, if that's the case, then 100%, the majority of those City players will not be wanting to play in League Two and absolutely will want a way out. No question. I'm presuming, because I've really not... I think... Sorry, Frank, because I've really not read... Again, this is a big long-form stuff for journalists to write and all that, and I really don't want to bury my head on it because it's kind of a bit left field.

17:40But I'm presuming everything they've done in recent years, to my knowledge, is allegedly bona fide, right? Yes. So if I'm on that squad at the moment, my mindset is, well, they're talking about him, him and him and him, and this year and that year and that year, let's go out and flatten Arsenal and Liverpool and everybody else this season and show them. Right. You know, we'll show them at the moment that this squad and this team and this club can win a league title the proper way, if that's the right way to put it. And I think that may be the motivation. But listen, I think it's only natural that some of the bigwigs in particular, and of course, Ellen Harlan probably being the biggest, is talking to his agent and saying, well, what's the out here?

18:26what's the scenario and what can we do about it? And that sort of thing. And I've said to you before, once the dominoes start falling at any club, particularly the big clubs, generally the rest sort of follows. So it's a very delicate situation in terms of the players' point of view. But they have a good opportunity this year. The current group of Manchester, of course, every ground they go to, apart from the Etihad, they're going to get absolutely slaughtered from the first minute to the last. But there's not a lot they can do about that, apart from go out, win games, possibly win the Premier League and put some of the talk about how leagues were won and lost in previous years behind them.

19:03Last word on this for you, Frank. Yeah, I really think that the players, they're going to give 100 % and fight until the verdict falls out and see what's going on. But I think they're all prepared and they're all called the urgency, OK, prepare the way out in case we need to. But I'm not really concerned about most of them because they're going to find other clubs. But I remember Juventus, Turin being relegated to Serie B. And some players, big players like Buffon, I think, stayed and tried to help the club to go back. And they did with Didier Lechamp as a coach. It's up to everybody. I don't know.

19:43It depends on the roots that you have with the club as well. But I would say that with the players that we see, and we just signed for like Guay or Cherokee, they will try to find other clubs for sure. A lot more on this over on our YouTube channel. Archie will be back with us a little later on to discuss Jurgen Klopp and how many steps he took to get off the bus. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, ESPN FC. Harry Douglas here. Game day brings the excitement. Your stay should feel just as memorable. With Marriott Bonvoy, official hotel partner of the NCAA and U.S. soccer, you're connected to a portfolio of brands designed for how you travel.

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21:11Norway against Portugal. We see Cristiano Ronaldo start on the bench. Lovely goal from Gerald Felix with open scoring for the visitors. Erling Haaland could have had a hat-trick in the first half with a number of chances that were created. He eventually made the breakthrough in the 51st minute. However, it didn't stay level for long. Mistake from the goalkeeper was capitalized by Ramos. Beautiful chip from him to give Portugal a 2-1 win. Frank, I know you're watching this one for us. If you see the result, you think, well, nice win for Portugal, but Norway will be kicking themselves. They didn't get anything from this game because they had so many chances.

21:48Like five chances to score goals. And we all know his accuracy in front of the goal. But today he was kind of clumsy. But you have to congratulate Diego Costa, the goalkeeper, who made some very good saves. I wouldn't say overall that Portugal were better, but I say I found that technically and also tactically, they knew what they had to do. Comparing to Norway, we had some time where they were pushing, but it was slow. It was without any imagination, only hoping that the big guy at front will do the job, which he did. But of course, you know, if you make a mistake like that, We all know that he's chacastrophic, but that's what it is.

22:36At that level, to be punished in that matter, it's really bad. But I love Joao Felix. I love the goal that he scored. That's so much of a finesse. The control is perfect. He has not too much time to do that. That was great. And we had an event. I mean, having Ronaldo on the bench says that the coach is ready to make decisions. So it's also maybe a good thing that you see the team evolving. We'll talk about Ronaldo in a moment, but Stevie, overall, what did you make of this match? I kind of disagree with Fanker, but I thought Norway were way better than Portugal. Way better. I mean, Haaland should have had a hard-trick.

23:21And there was other opportunities as well. I don't I'm trying to remember I was sitting listening to Frank thinking what other saves did Neyland make so yeah if I'm Norway I mean I think if you watch the end of this game and surprise surprise the camera's on Holland you want to talk about stone faced you know because he knows that A his team should have won this game and he knows that he should have had more goals so yeah I was not impressed with Portugal yeah Jael Felix took his goal so well you talk about cool and calm. You know, the goalkeeper obviously thinks he's going the other way, but he just calmly slots it back that way.

23:59And then the second one's a gift. So, yeah, there was... For me, there was not much about Portugal that I thought was particularly great. And in Norway, Norway should have won this game comfortably. Leo hit the post, I think, Frank's about to tell you. Leo hit the post. You had also Gonzalo Ramos the first half. He had a big chance. So, yeah, you know, I said tactically and they knew what to do with the ball. There was more enthusiasm coming from the Norwegians. It's what I said. Cristiano Ronaldo, as you mentioned, on the bench. It would be Gonzalo Ramos who would start. This is Cristiano Ronaldo, of course, who has done everything for club and country, but the question that always reverberates around him, given his age, given where he flies his trade these days, is whether or not he still justifies a place in the Portuguese squad.

24:48Who better to ask than Luis Figo about this and that's exactly what Alexis Nunes did. You look at now Lionel Messi is retiring from Argentina and everyone wonders if Cristiano should do the same but is Cristiano a player that you would say let him do what he wants, let him play as long as he wants? You still feel like he's of that level? Yeah, of course he should decide what he wants. I think for me, of course, I have a big respect and a big consideration for him because of what he made all these years in football. But only personal decision he can make. And then, of course, in terms of national team, it's the coach who has to decide.

25:46It's not because he has a statue or what he was meaning for football or what he still means today that he should have a place. You understand? So, it's a big responsibility for, in this case, the coach. You have to take the responsibility. but in terms of his own decision, it's only him that can say what he wants, what he plans, and what is his future. So it's difficult for me to talk. Frank, what did you make of this Portugal side without Ronaldo today?

26:35I wouldn't say that I saw a fantastic girl, Gonzalo Ramos, at front and then Ronaldo couldn't be there as well. I think everybody at the beginning of the Nation League is trying to find a way to show their strengths and Portugal is continuing with the players that they have known and they have had in terms of squad. But that's a big factor. And I think that Figo is a little bit annoyed by the question that he doesn't really want to answer because it's hard to answer that question. Yes, we would love to see Ronaldo carrying on, being at the best, but it's impossible. Because he's 43 and because they're like everybody else and it happened to us, at some point you slow down a little bit on everything.

27:20So it's hard. Yet he has a statue. Yes, he has a standard. He has a level. But that's, again, Figo is right. The coach is the only one who can decide. And I don't think Ronaldo can say anything about that. I don't think he's going to say anything about it because somebody doesn't want him. He doesn't want him. I think he wants him, but it's more part-time thing that he wants to adjust to. And let's see how it works. Let's see how Ronaldo accepts it. And maybe it's for the best for Portugal. It's not a difficult... I disagree in a sense that... I know what Frank's meaning, but it's really not a difficult answer.