Should Eze's Penalty Have Been Overturned?

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0:52Hello and welcome into the latest edition of ESPN FC. Kay Murray, Shaka Hislop and Stevie Nicol here in the studio. And we will continue to turn our attentions to the big week in Europe. Starting with yesterday's game between Atleti and Arsenal. Taking a look at some of the press from England. All the talk from Mikel Arteta being furious about the overturned penalty in their draw with Atletico. Here's what he had to say. What I am incredibly fuming with is how the hell the penalty on Epps gets overturned in the manner that happens when it is not a clear and obvious error. And this changes the course of the game and at this level I am sorry but this cannot happen.

1:31Have you had any explanation on that? No, there is a very clear explanation. The decision and what happens for a period of time and the referee has to watch it 13 times. It is more clear than that. I think it is impossible and we are all fuming about it. When you have fought so hard for nine months to be in this position, I mean, that's another goal that changed completely the course of the time. And it cannot happen. I'm sorry. We put so much on it. So, so, so much on it. This cannot happen. This is Declan Rice on the overturned penalty. He said, I think the fans provoked the decision and changed the ref's mind.

2:06So that's to add to what Arteta said. Don's still with us. Do you agree with Arteta, Don? Yeah, I mean, Declan Rice has put out a statement there. but let me tell you now, Arsenal fans will be doing exactly the same thing next week. I think Arteta's got a point because essentially what he's saying is it wasn't a clear and obvious error. So by the law, the letter of the law, it probably shouldn't have been overturned. However, I never thought it was a penalty in the first place. I think when you see it again, I think Eza tries to initiate the contact. And when you see it in slow motion, it's Eza's left foot.

2:38He takes it with his right foot. Look at his left foot. He tries to wrap his left foot around the defender after the motion there. so he knows Are you looking at the same screen we are? There's very minimal contact Yes mate there's very minimal contact Oh so there is contact A minimal Stevie So that's contact There's 22 men playing a game of football Don There's 22 men playing a game of football There's got to be contact Don You know as well as I do Come on Stevie You know Stevie come on man The game would be in a very dark place if every minimal contact was given as a foul or a penalty Don It's very very soft It can go either way don't get me wrong it's not a penalty so first of all there was no contact then there's minimal contact now it's soft now minimal Don you know we know when we're playing a situation like that in the opposition penalty box we absolutely smell that you know Ezra's smelt it he knows he's getting there is that the way he knows well let me finish he knows he's getting there before the defender and so he knows that if he gets there and he times this correct he gets a touch on the ball and then he gets the contact It's a penalty kick.

3:45You and I know that. We try and do that because it's called professional. Yeah, yeah. So that's why it's a penalty. But it doesn't mean it's a penalty that you try it. I understand what you're saying. There's a forward. You try and get there first. You get there first. And then you get the contact. And then down you go. So why did Ezra wrap his left foot around the defender afterwards? I don't care. I bet he's left foot. To create the contact. I don't care about his left foot. Well, I do. He gets kicked. Well, I do. He gets kicked on his right foot He could have chopped his leg off His leg foot's got nothing to do with this Go Stevie, come on You could have chopped his leg off Are you serious?

4:24Are you serious? He could have chopped his leg off Listen to what I said I said you could have chopped Ezra's leg off because it doesn't matter What his left foot did That's what I'm saying If he played with one leg I'm saying if he played with one leg it would be a penalty Forget his left leg He's left hand He's got nothing to do with this What's the wibber? Let me ask you a question Is that the game Is that the game You want to see Going forward Every minimal contact You're giving us A free kick and a pen When we start getting Philosophical and honest Is that what you want to see? Well I'm asking you a question For a hundred years I'm asking you a question For a hundred years That's a penalty kick For a hundred years That's a penalty kick I don't think it is And this I don't think it is This minimal contact nonsense I hate when people say Oh it's It's minimal It's soft if there's contact well there is a little then well there is a law Stevie There is there is a law that's got minimal contact written into the law, so it's not like we're making words up Well, wait wait how long how long you play for what 20 years?

5:27I played for 20 shot play for 20 and a thousand times a thousand that was a penalty kick and They were always given I Because we knew exactly what we were doing. I don't think it is. We timed it, so we got there just before the opposition, so that he made contact with you, and it's a penalty kick. And even forgetting that, the fact that you can look at that, and you cannot, and you have to look at it ten times because you're not quite sure, you cannot go back on your decision. So every single way in which you want to look at it, it's a penalty kick. But you just contradicted yourself. you contradicted yourself because you said you need to look at it 10 times I understand what Arteta is saying where he says it's not clear and obvious and I'll give him that, he's correct I said in terms of changing the decision if you've got to look at it 10 times, then you can't do it that's what I said I agree, and I agreed with that at the outset when Kay asked the question about Arteta, was he right yes he was right because that's the law of the game it wasn't a clear and obvious error from the referee so Arteta had a point I'm saying I didn't think it was enough contact to be given as a pen I thought it was minimal.

6:40Shekha you got the deciding say here? I thought it was apparently no question and and I saw I saw the debate after Don's not the first to suggest the contact wasn't enough or in using Don's turn it's minimal once as it stretches once he gets the ball once he gets to the ball first and the contact follows I thought it was apparently all day every single day. And it didn't really add it to that. It's salt in the wound that it goes to VAR and overturns somehow or the other. And again, listen, I have sat here for years and said this kind of notion about high bar for VAR intervention is absolute nonsense.

7:21I've said that from day one. Now, you're looking at this and you ask, well, you've been selling us this nonsense for the last three years how does this play into that how how does whatever that was supposed to be um warrant warrant the intervention um i i'm with stevie fully on this i i honestly did not think there was any debate to it it's a penalty okay we saw hand balls in each of the first leg semi-finals in the champions league this week let's start with the psg buying game Alphonso Davies. We're taking it to first half stoppages here. Stevie? I don't know what Davies is supposed to do here.

8:03He closes the ball down, comes off his thigh and then hits his arm. I don't see how that's a penalty. I'm sorry. Absolutely not for me. I was absolutely shocked when they gave it. Not a penalty. Never has been. Done. That's a joke. Because I think in the Premier League that wouldn't be given, but there's a different criteria in the Premier League. And the fact that it takes a deflection then onto your arm, in what world can that be given as a penalty? Because I know what footballers are like. Footballers will look at that and take advantage of the law and they'll start clipping a ball off a defender's arm and then asking the question of the referee, go on then, that's handball.

8:44It's a joke of a decision. And let me stay with you then, Don, because in the other game we saw Ben White also concede a penalty for handball, Llorente shoots the ball and this comes up off his leg and onto his arm as well. What did you make of this here? That's exactly the same. I think the referees have had the conversation before this game watching the pen and the PSG game and the buying game and thought if it happens again we've got to stay consistent and we're going to have to give the pen. It's never a penalty. You just nailed it, Kay. It came off Ben White's leg before it hits his hand.

9:16I mean, how can that be, and I say this loosely, how can that be intentional? but as I said that wouldn't be given in the Premier League it's written in law in the Premier League that if it takes deflection it wouldn't then be given for some strange reason in the Champions League the referees just go penalty I think and we're done on this one I think it's shocking absolutely shocking just makes no sense do you think it has conditioned what happened the day before this game do you think there has been that crossover quite possibly it shouldn't I will say two wrongs has never made a right it shouldn't condition what happened 24 hours earlier to what happened in this Arsenal-Atletico game.

9:55It gives UEFA or the referees, whoever it is, the kind of fallback of consistency, that we've refereed both these games and called both these incidents consistently. And we as players often say what we ask for first and foremost from referees is a certain level of consistency. but you don't want that consistency to be based on a wrong decision. I think both those decisions are wrong. If you give penalties every time an arm is away from the body, if it comes off of you or somebody else in close proximity, it opens an awful lot of can of worms that I don't think game wants to see. I don't think referees want to kind of administer.

10:38I just think it's two really poor decisions. UEFA should have to answer for both or the referees, the association, or whoever it is, should have to answer for both. And seeing that, well, it was called this way on Tuesday, so therefore we had to call it on Wednesday, does not wash with me. OK, well, it was an epic game, wasn't it, on Tuesday between PSG and Bayern. 5-4, it finished. It was one for the ages. But Diego Simeone has had his say on it. After the game, he said, when a game ends 5-4, everyone says, what a great game. And I say, they scored five goals against us. Now, it was a great game, and there's a neutral.

11:12We did all love watching it, Stevie. Diego Simeone might not usually be a manager and a coach that you agree with, but I feel like you might agree with him here. Well, there's no might about it. Absolutely. To say the game wasn't enjoyable would be not telling the truth. It was. But however, if you want to look at it from a coach's point of view, from a professional's point of view, defensively, it was an absolute shambles. And tactically, in terms of what the coaches wanted, the team to be as a defensive unit. It was a shambles. But I loved it the same as everybody else. It just so happens that I was a defender, I was a coach, and I can see both sides of the argument.

11:58And I 1 ,000 % agree with Diego Simeone. You 1 ,000 % agree with him? I do. And you're pointing out bad defending on both sides here? Well, I can't say bad defending because there wasn't any defending. I mean, there was nobody there. the amount of times it was three against two was incredible and so yeah from a defensive point of view both coaches got the tactics wrong Shaka do you care as a goalkeeper first of all do I care? no let's remember I played in the Kevin Keegan side so and to that point to Steve Eza and Diego Simeone I disagree I think when you look at how both these teams are built When you look at the successes over the last couple of years, PSG particularly in this Champions League, it's built on some of those defenders being very attack-minded.

12:53You look at PSG's wingbacks, who many argue are the best two wingbacks in the game, but very attack-minded. So as a result, if that's how you're going to play the game, if that's how you're going to build your successes, then if you concede four in this instance, then so be it. You know how you're going to play. You cannot ask Hakimi and Bruno Neves, sit a little bit deeper for me today, please. You can't. That's not how they play. That's not how those teams are built. Now, you build a team like Atletico Madrid, then, and you concede four, then you have questions to answer. But that's not how PSG or Bayern Munich are built.

13:31They press higher up, their defenders attack, and when two of them rock meets a hard place, this is what you get 5-4. Don how good was it? It was amazing I absolutely loved it it was one of the best games and we've seen some classic games over the years more I think in the Champions League than any other domestic competition I think in league football you see the odd 4-3 or you see the odd 3-2 a bit of a classic, the Newcastle Liverpool game spring to mind but in the Champions League you just see loads of jeopardy and I love the fact that it was two managers who just wanted to play ultimate football.

14:12Just said like, I know your tactics. You know my tactics. Let's just go out and play football. There's no long throws. There's no feigning injury. There's no set plays. We're going to try and play the game properly and pure. And it just produced one of the best games of football I've seen in years. Yeah, absolutely. And it is fair to say that the two semifinals, the first legs that we saw this week, played out very differently. See if you like the second and let you select the second game. Stylistically, very differently. You did not. It's in Paris. It was chaotic and entertaining. One thing we know is that in Madrid, it was more of a tactical chess match.

14:47Now, yesterday, the guys talked about the difference in quality. Here is a little of what they had to say on FC. Premier League has become a slow passing game. That's not great entertainment. What people do is follow what the best team are doing. And Man City, for years, were a passing team. and ticky-tack of football and they went after Guardiola and said, this is how you win football matches. You keep control of the ball, you wear the opposition down and eventually you'll get chances. Now he's got players that can run with the ball. Other teams now have to think, OK, we've got to do that. We can't just play passing football backwards and square because it doesn't break the opposition down enough.

15:23All you hear, and certainly in England, is set-piece coach. And this coach, and that coach, and the next coach. And it just feels like it's over-coaching rather than just allowing the players to go out with a base to go and play and express yourself. And I'm not saying Bayern and PSG are not coached. Of course they are. But once Enrique and Vincent Kompany have coached the players and selected their team, those boys go out there and they just express themselves. They lost the British mojo. They lost the craziness of the English football that I met when I first played in England. That's gone and that's a pity because that's why it was the best league in the world because that was different And now it's like the others You switch on the Premier League in a weekend now and it's boring Yeah And that is an issue for their product And I think a lot of it is down to the fact that certain managers Are Just want to win And that's fair enough They want to win at all costs Stevie, what do you think about what the guys had to say?

16:31I can't disagree with actually anything they've said. I tend to agree more with one of the things Craig said about it's down to the coaches. You know, at the end of the day, when teams go on the field, they're trying to do what the coach wants them to do. So clearly you can see what PSG and Bayern's coach wants to do. But unfortunately, too many in the Premier League, it's more about keeping the ball. You know, I always thought when you played football, the object was to go forward, to go to the opposition goal. And by that, what I mean is your first thought, your first touch should set you up to go forward.

17:14It doesn't seem that that's what happens anymore. It's at all costs, keep the ball first. And then eventually we'll go forward. You know, again, boys are talking about a base and then freedom to play. and that's how I see what the best teams should be doing. You have a base and then you give the players that you have on your side who have a certain quality and need a certain freedom to go at defenders, then that's what you encourage them to do. Not enough teams in the Premier League do that. I mean, Kovacic, Kovacic, Kovacic Skellia is a perfect example. If he was playing in the Premier League, he would not be going at the full-back the way he does in a PSG shot.

17:58He would be, well, I better go back this way and then we'll go backwards or sideways. So I think too many coaches in the Premier League are encouraging their players, number one, to keep the ball. And the second thought is, well, then we can go forward. Once we're all set up, then we can go forward. I think added to that, there is a physicality about English football that has always been kind of prominent. uh and prevalent i'm not kind to to some of the skillful players uh in the game and now listen i know there are examples the gianfranco zolas and there are a few others um but in general it has not been kind to touch players to to very technical players you you you you mentioned one player from psg you can look at another vitina who played in the premier league um who wolves could have signed for something like 20 million or some of some of you saw from from porto albeit a few years ago.

18:56The league was not kind to that kind of player. The Premier League also isn't kind to developing players. So Vitinha comes to Wolves, struggles by comparison, goes to PSG and has now turned into one of the best midfielders in world football. But he was seen as small, a little too slight, a little too lightweight for English football. And I think that kind of highlights some of the challenges, some of the issues around English football. There's also an immediacy of results. If you do not get results right now, things have to change and change quickly, whether it's manager or in this team, as we're talking about, players have to go.

19:39I found it interesting when the boys were trying to talk about how the Premier League is at the strongest league, all that kind of stuff. Well, it's interesting because the Premier League signs in Europe don't play the way they do in the Premier League. They don't. Which is why you're possibly going to have a Premier League side in the Champions League final. You're going to have a Premier League side in the Europa League final. And you're probably going to have a Premier League side in the Conference final. So how can you turn around and say that the other leagues are stronger when you've got teams like Spurs who sailed through the Champions League, but yet they can't win a game in the Premier League?

20:18But what are they doing differently then in Europe to what they're doing back in England? they play a different game it's a different game I would say probably apart from Arsenal everybody plays a different game please tell me why because we watch the Premier League and it's all the same it's keep the ball sideways back the opposition they all fall back in and we get the ball wide and then now do we take them on or do we come back again the Premier League says I'm doing that in the Champions League. That's got, again, it's got to be down to the coaches because the teams play the way the coaches ask them to before the game kicks off.

20:59And when you sit and do all your prep for a game and you look at the opposition and this is what we're going to do, it's clearly a different message when it comes to the Champions League or Europe than it is in the Premier League. I don't think they're necessarily doing a whole lot different. How often have we said about Spurs this season? They don't really have a team for a relegation battle. Yet, to Stevie's point, they kind of sailed through the group stages of the Champions League. Twelve months ago, we had Spurs and Manchester United, who were what, 16th and 17th respectively, or 15th and 17th, something like that, competing in the Europa League final.

21:37For years, for years, we have watched Lionel Messi do magic, perform magic in a Barcelona shirt, and the counter to that was, can he do it on a cold night in Stoke? that sums up how English football sees itself and what it takes to be successful in English football which is why I keep saying English football isn't kind to touch players to technical players whereas Europe is far more rewarding to that type of player, that type of team Chuck, would you agree though that the Premier League sides do play differently in Europe? and again, to your question that has to be the fact that what they're doing is they're reacting to the opposition that can be the only reason Don what's your take on this?

22:28I'll tell you as the lads are chatting there there's a couple of things that sprung to mind when Stevie was saying about teams playing differently in the Premier League than different in Europe Anthony Gordon summed it up when he got asked a question in a press conference before the Barcelona game he got asked exactly the same question what's the difference and he said in the Champions League it's all about football you're allowed to play football and you want to play football As soon as you play in the Premier League, you get taught, win your duels, win your headers, win the knockdowns, help it into corners, battle for long throws, corner kicks.

23:00It's all a battle. It's all a duel. And that's the major difference. When you go and play Barcelona, you're going to play a football match. When you go and play Champions League matches, onto your question about Spurs, they play good football Spurs, but they can't win their duels in the Premier League. That's why they're struggling in the Premier League. But they, as Stevie said, sail through in the Premier League. And just off the back of the guys talking there, I've got a nine-year-old boy who's a winger who's trying to make it in the game. And he asked me a question. We were watching a West Ham game.

23:28And it's not really relevant to West Ham, but it was the game that we were watching. And he said to me, he said, Dad, can I ask you a question? I went, go on. He went, why does when West Ham get the ball and they give it to Jared Bowen, why does he go backwards to the right back? And I looked at him and I went, you've just nailed punditry on your nine years of age. because everything that you've been taught about the game, for me, who's a midfield player, is do the dirty work, get it to the wingers who are better than me, get it to the strikers that are better than me. They can go and play their football at the top end of the pitch, attack, score goals.

24:00That's what Bayern do. That's what Liverpool done with Mane and Salah. That's what PSG do. That's what Guardiola's going to do now, I think, with Doku and Semenyo. But, yeah, it needs to sort of go full circle. But that's the difference. When you're playing Premier League football, it's all about survival and it's all about locking on and winning duels when the Champions League are allowed to play a lot better football Two things First of all let's get Don's son on the show It'll be a whole lot better It's going to be on come soon Can I just say Shaq before you go Shaq Shaq can I just say sorry before you go How in a world can it be right when you're watching a Premier League game of football and the goalkeeper and the centre-backs have more touches than your number nine How can that be right.

24:47So, added to that, and Don's talking about Anthony Gordon, talking about you get more time to play in the Champions League. This is before the Newcastle-Barcelona game. At the end of that game, you had Laminia Mal coming on, talking about exactly that game, saying, as soon as I got the ball, I felt like I stole something. People were coming at me so quickly. Or words to that effect. So, now you have Laminia Mal and Anthony Gordon talking about the exact same game of football. Anthony Gordon saying you've got more time to play football and Lamini Miles saying I feel like I stole something and people were chasing me.

25:23It speaks to the challenges in the Premier League. Good conversation guys. Nice to hear. And yes, let's get Don's nine-year-old son on the show very soon. Gab and Jewel show. Make sure to check it out. Maybe he could replace Gab on the Gab and Jewel show. Jewel might get a word in. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Thrivent believes money is more than numbers. It's a way to care for the people, causes and community you love. That's why Thrivent brings together a unique combination of financial services and generosity programs, offering advice, investments and insurance to help you plan your finances while creating opportunities to give back along the way.

26:06Through generosity programs that offer resources to fund service projects or direct charitable funds, Thrivent makes it easier to turn your values into action and support what matters most to you. With more than 120 years of experience and as a Fortune 500 company, Thrivent continues to serve individuals, families and communities across the country. To learn more, visit Thrivent.com. Thrivent, where money means more. As you know, managing maintenance, repair and operations is never easy. But for the ones who always rise to the challenge, Granger has your back. From professional-grade products you can count on to fast, dependable delivery, they're there to help you keep things running smoothly.

26:48Plus, their technical product specialists are here to help answer your toughest questions. And because Grainger knows safety is always a priority, they're committed to being your partner in protecting both your people and your facilities. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, clickgrainger.com, or just stop by. A spot kick from Chris Wood in the 71st minute was the difference between Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa as Forest won this game 1-0 after Luca Dean handled the ball inside the area and the penalty was awarded. Let's start with that penalty that was given and had to be checked the 68th minute. Don, what did you make of it?

27:24Luca Dean, you're with his arms off. Ah, stonewall penalty. The only thing I can think of that Luca Dean thought the ball or was certain the ball was out of play and he put his hands in the air, which he should never do. He's took an almighty gamble, backfired. VAR quite rightly got involved because the ball was clearly not over the line. And then from there, you're just waiting for the penalty to be given and then dispatched really well into the top corner from Chris Wood. I mean, it was some penalty, but bad error that from Luca Dean. Oh, Stevie, what was he thinking? I've got no idea. It makes absolutely no sense why you would put...