Sid Lowe's Officiating Soliloquy

11:49Dan Thomas:I'll tell you what I don't like. I don't like Sid body language right now.

11:51Sid Lowe:Oh, don't worry. We're going to take him off some more. We're going to take him off some more. So Sid also had an issue in this game. Girona were awarded a penalty against Espanol for this.

12:03Shaka Hislop:The thing is, did I have an issue in this game? I don't remember picking up on any of these individually. But for me, that is a forward who's decided there's an arm on him and thinks, tell you what, I can go to ground and try and get a penalty. This brings us to another question, by the way, which is the fact that players can look for penalties with total impunity. And I think that's a really big problem. This one, by the way, I think could be a penalty. This one I think could be a penalty. We're taking these individually, but I think there's a broader question here.

12:30Sid Lowe:Sid, you did have a problem with this one. We did our FBI work, let me tell you. Yeah, you did. And we combed through all of your tweets like I combed through my ex-boyfriend's text messages. So don't you worry.

12:40Shaka Hislop:I'm sorry, what? Excuse me, what? That's exactly what I was thinking. If you are analyzing all of my tweets, I'm in so much trouble and it's nothing to do with refereeing. Oh, there you go.

12:52Sid Lowe:I keep my receipts. I keep my receipts. All right, what about this next one now that we're going to pull up? Because you did also have an issue with this one from the Segunda División Malaga. against Mirandes. Mirandes got a late penalty to win it.

13:08Shaka Hislop:Come on. Right, so your number 15 there has gone, oh, thanks very much. Get a bit of my shirt. I'm going down. I would like to make a very clear point here. Nowhere in the rules does it say that if you are holding onto someone's shirt, it is a foul. Nowhere in the rules does it say that. It says if in the opinion of the referee where you're doing a recklessness, a lack of care, or preventing an opportunity, then it is a foul. There is nothing in the rules that say the existence of contact or even the existence of holding someone's shirt for a brief second is as and of itself a foul. And I just think what we're doing with this is we're allowing tiny, tiny, tiny things, bureaucratic nonsense.

13:46Shaka Hislop:I was going to use a word, but that's the worst word, to decide games. This is late in the game. That can't be a penalty. And what we're essentially saying to forwards, this is for me the big problem. What we're essentially saying to forwards is go on, have a go. Dive. Go for it. Try it, because there's absolutely no comeback.

14:03Sid Lowe:All right, well, we heard from a defender in Frank. We heard from someone up front. Ali's loving this. But let's hear from the goalkeeper, maybe for a very level-head, Shaka.

14:13Frank Leboeuf:I'm with Sid in the conceptual argument, I guess, is the term that he used. For me, in terms of the incidents, the first two were penalties. The second two, from the incidents from corners, were not. And that just kind of speaks to, I guess, the point that Sid is making, particularly in spade from the time there's contact from the time there's kind of any arms locking striker goes over and it's given and that's an issue because when you have a crowded box when you have 18 players inside inside within 10 yards there is inevitably going to be you know a tangling of arms or you know bodies coming together just because bodies come together and one goes over doesn't mean that a foul has been committed.

14:58Frank Leboeuf:So I'm with Sidon on those. In the box, in a congested box, you cannot just, every time somebody goes over, Warren, point to the penalty spot.

15:08Sid Lowe:Well, have a look at this one because Frank pointed to some Ale Moreno theatrics and look at this one. In Rayo versus Mallorca, Rayo were awarded a, dare I say, a dodgy pen after some Ale Moreno theatrics. Man went down like he was absolutely attacked.

15:25Dan Thomas:There's a swinging arm. Did you not see the swinging arm? Oh my God.

15:32Alejandro Moreno:Oh my God.

15:34Frank Leboeuf:Now I'm feeling mean to talk about it.

15:36Alejandro Moreno:There's a conceptual argument to be had here. That's exactly the point and what we are talking about. Around seven or eight years ago, I was talking about Cavani falling down. and I was saying that because the commentators always say, oh, there is a contact. Yeah, but a contact doesn't mean anything. It's a support contact. That's the key, Frank. That's it. And you have to go forward. In order for the defender to go forward, he has to take the balance of his body. So it's why he's arming his body with his left arm. But he's not trying to get into the strikers and to elbow him. And therefore, it's a contact to get into the ball.

16:20Alejandro Moreno:So for me, of course, there is nothing. But who I am, I'm just a defender.

16:24Dan Thomas:Here's the problem, though, that the way that the games are refereed today, if you were to commit that same sort of foul, quote-unquote, somewhere around the midfield area, it's called a foul. They've made a point, in Spain in particular, that that trailing arm, if it makes contact to the chest, neck, or face area of a trailing defender, it's called a foul. I'm not making this up, and I'm not saying that I agree with it, But if you're going to call that a foul in the middle of midfield and the same play happens inside the 18-yard box, now you've cornered yourself and you put yourself in a position in which, oh, if that's a foul there, maybe that's a foul in there too.

17:03Dan Thomas:And if that's the case, penalty.

17:04Sid Lowe:Well, interesting that Alex says that because have a look at this next incident. There's another one, Sid, that this one's probably going to tick you off and we'll let you go into this. This one coming from the Bass Derby and a straight red shot for this. Come on.

17:20Shaka Hislop:I mean, yeah. Oh, my God. My tooth. Bryce Mendes, let me explain a little bit more about this particular one for you. And this speaks to what Frank was saying about the contact. Contact is going to exist. And actually, what Adi's saying is right as well. In the middle of the pitch, these are getting given because contact exists. And the big problem for me is there is another element, which is the VAR sees it. And in Spain, the way the VAR protocol works is if there is contact, they won't overturn it. And so they're looking to say, well, if there's contact, we can't touch it. Of course you can.

17:48Shaka Hislop:you're there to check to see if there's a foul you're not there to check to see if there's contact but the way they use the protocol say if there's contact we let it stand now this particular one I'm going to explain to you why I think this is even worse the Spanish Referees Committee the CTA have started doing this thing which I actually applaud as an idea where they get a panel of people former players to choose six moments from the weekend's games that maybe could be debatable for some reason or another or could be difficult to understand for some reason or another. And then they explain them.

18:19Shaka Hislop:And the idea is they're saying this is to educate people, to explain to people what's going on. Now, this was one of the ones that was picked up by that six-person, I think it's six or maybe three-person committee. And they said, explain this to us. And the Spanish referees committee came out and said, absolutely right to be sent off. And by the way, a two-game ban. So you get sent off, you lose a lead in the derby, and you miss two games for basically the other team's guy diving on the floor and holding his face when you haven't been near it. Now, this for me, again, we're coming back to the same conceptual thing.

18:48Shaka Hislop:This is a concrete example of a conceptual thing. We have created a scenario in which we are saying to players, go on, have a dive. It's a free hit. You might as well, because you never know the referee might buy it. And do you know what? Even if he doesn't buy it, he's not going to book you. Less than five players have been booked this year for diving.

19:08Alejandro Moreno:Go on, Frank. And Sid, sorry to interfere, but who started it? That's the guy who goes on the floor. He's starting to make the contact if we are talking about the contact. So if you want to punish somebody, you have to punish the first one. You always punish the reaction. That's insane because people, they're trying to take that opportunity to put somebody out. So you push him. The guy reacts, touching a little bit of your face, go on the floor, and you win. The guy is going to be sent off. That's insane. Really insane.

19:40Dan Thomas:From the perspective of the diving camp.

19:44Sid Lowe:From the president and founder.

19:47Dan Thomas:And what we teach on Thursdays at the diving camp. You know, you know nothing egregious and flagrant has happened in this particular sequence. When the player that has had the hand put on his face slightly takes a pause before he goes down. If he had attended the diving camp, he would know that you go down the moment you feel that contact. Any source of contact. Because the pause gives you away. The pause gives away the fact that you are now embellishing. All I'm saying is it's an open invitation for anybody to attend the diving camp and we'll teach it. That's level three, though. That's level three of the old diving camp.

20:31Shaka Hislop:How much are you charging, Ali, for lessons at your diving school?

20:38Shaka Hislop:Shall I risk wading into really dangerous territory here?

20:43Sid Lowe:Oh, go on. Wade away.

20:45Shaka Hislop:Let's wade into really dangerous territory. I don't think we've got the clips of these. And this is where on YouTube, down below the line, everybody wades into me and calls me all sorts of rude names. Shall we go to last weekend's game at the Santiago Bernabeu, in which Real Madrid won a penalty in the last minute? Now, I don't want to talk about the penalty they won in the last minute. I'm not interested in that because, you know, you can debate whether that's a penalty or not. From my view, it is a penalty. But shall we talk about the three Real Madrid players who dived looking for penalties because they were increasingly desperate in the 20 minutes or so before then?

21:15Shaka Hislop:Now, what happened to those three players? Shall I tell you the answer? Nothing. Mbappé tried it once, Vinicius tried it once, and I think it was Brahim Diaz tried it once. Now, this isn't about, again, let me insist on what I've been saying all the way through the show. This isn't about Real Madrid, but this is, if you like, the high-profile example which everybody has fresh in their mind. If those three players think, well, there's literally no risk in me diving. If I'm really lucky, I might be able to focus some contact. If I'm really lucky, the referee will fall for it, give the penalty, and because the VAR says, well, there is some contact, I will win the penalty.

21:48Shaka Hislop:And I think it's an important point here. There's a difference between they gave away a penalty and I won a penalty. In those three cases, it was I won a penalty. And this is, for me, part of the big conceptual flaw in all of this is that because we're allowing the VAR to say, well, we won't touch it if there's contact. If we're allowing referees to say, well, if there's contact, it's a foul. If we're allowing, well, if there's contact, anything goes, whether it's diving, holding your face, even if you've been hit in the chest, whether it's tumbling in the area, even though there's almost nothing there, then if we're allowing that to happen, we're essentially saying to players who are going to go and try and invent a penalty, or going to go and try and get someone sent off, as we saw in the Bass Derby, we're saying to them, yeah, have a go, because you have got no risk whatsoever.

22:28Shaka Hislop:It's time we got yellow cards out for diving. I think that's another part of this.

22:31Sid Lowe:Oh, well, I tell you what, we don't have the clips of that one now. But, Sid, we do have some more salt to throw in your wounds because these next two come from Oviedo games. Oviedo now, Vinas shown a second yellow for this job. Come on.

22:49Shaka Hislop:Now, I am going to, despite being a Real Oviedo supporter and admitting my bias, I am going to say here that Vinas, I think he's maybe a little bit unfortunate because I do think he's just jumping. But, but I'm going to give you the context of this. First of all, it's not a direct red. It was a second yellow. Secondly, we see constantly in Spain that when players lead with their arms, they get a foul given against them and quite often a yellow card. So I think Vinias took a risk. And the other part of Vinias taking a risk in this is actually there was one three or four minutes earlier, which was slightly worse than that when he led with his arm.

23:19Shaka Hislop:And to be fair to the referee, the referee warned him, said, look, don't jump like that because it's going to end up being a yellow card. And then he fell into this trap. Now, so I take this in isolation and I must admit, I think, do we really want to be giving yellow cards out for things like this, which are not particularly bad, but for what it's worth, I don't think there's too much of a complaint this time because of the context around it.

23:39Sid Lowe:All right, well, let's talk about some more heartbreak for Oviedo because that's all they seem to know these days. But we can actually let Xhaka in on this one. Xhaka, because the goalie getting a yellow for not actually going outside of the box.

23:52Frank Leboeuf:This was bad.

23:55Frank Leboeuf:What's wrong with this?

23:56Sid Lowe:Well, apparently they think that he went outside the box when he obviously did not, and he got a yellow.

24:01Frank Leboeuf:I saw that replay earlier, and I couldn't figure out what was going on, what the issue was. And it's, I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. There's nothing wrong with that. A bidet against goalkeepers.

24:17Sid Lowe:Absolutely. Same. Horrible.

24:19Shaka Hislop:Yeah. Just let me pick up on what Shaq's saying. My reaction to this as well was I couldn't understand it, because I couldn't really understand how the referee could give a handball outside the area because he literally can't have seen that happen because it didn't happen. Now, I know there's a trick of the eye. You might imagine that you have and you might think that you've seen the ball go out, but it's not even really that close. And given the goalkeeper's position, he just can't have seen it. I will defend the referee actually a little bit on this particular one. And again, you know, and that is that the yellow card wasn't given for the handball.

24:49Shaka Hislop:The yellow card was given for Aaron's response, for his anger at the response. That said, of course he's annoyed at the response because he knows better than anyone that he hasn't gone out of the area with the ball.

24:59Dan Thomas:See, you know what the problem in that particular sequence is? That the referee is guessing. There is no chance that he would have been able to see the ball going outside the 18-yard box because the goalkeeper's back is blocking the ball. So at this point, you're just guessing. And if you have a referee, and as a player, you get a feeling that this referee is not actually seeing the play, that he's guessing on the outcome of the play, that is what makes it even more frustrating.

25:27Alejandro Moreno:I didn't know, sorry, I didn't know that was part of the game for a referee to guess. I think he normally has to be sure, otherwise shut up, you know, and let the game play and don't guess. Please don't guess, because you're ready to make me say. I just want to go, sorry, sorry, Shaka, but I don't want to go to, to sometimes that I was talking to professional referees in France, when I talked to them about, you know, some players and I say, aren't you fed up to see always the same players being on going on the floor? And don't, why don't you make a list of players that you know that for 95 % of the game of the, of the time they're going to go on the floor, that's going to be fake.

26:07Alejandro Moreno:So if you don't whistle, you're going to be, you will have more chance to be right, done wrong. So if you want to play that guessing thing, do the list and don't give penalties on, I don't want to name names, but some players that we all know will go on the floor very easily. Alejandro Moreno.

26:26Frank Leboeuf:A-M. A-M.

26:29Sid Lowe:A-M. Chaka?

26:30Frank Leboeuf:I was just going to say, when I first saw that clip, my initial thought was that the referee thought the defender touched it and it was a back pass because the co-keeper is nowhere near to the edge of the box. But then the defender's no end after the ball either. So the more I watch it, the more absurd it just kind of became.

26:49Sid Lowe:Shaka Strafik. How about this one now? Coming from yesterday's game. Sid, let me know if you think this is a penalty. Do you have a problem with this? I love this. We're awarded a penalty for this one. It's almost like an upside.

27:05Frank Leboeuf:I love this one. Look at this one.

27:12Shaka Hislop:I love the fact that he's got the shirt pulled over his head and he carries on trying to go.

27:21Shaka Hislop:That's brilliant. Oh my God. There was a bit of a nice moment after the game where the Real Sociedad goalkeeper, Alex Romero, who said, because it happened so fast, he said, to be honest, I didn't realize what had happened at first. he said but when I saw it back on the video I asked my teammate who committed the foul Caleta Card, I asked him what were you trying to do steal the GPS out of the back of his vest or what because it was just absurd.

27:44Alejandro Moreno:Sid, I have a question for you Sid because since you didn't find a rule saying that holding a shirt is a foul so is that holding or pulling?

27:55Shaka Hislop:Ah but you see that's exactly right actually this is quite a good example I suppose of this idea that that conceptually we get it wrong. We believe that the holding of a shirt is the foul. It's not. So this isn't the same as one of the ones we saw already. The one at Mystera, I think it is, where the player goes down and there's a tiny little bit on his shirt and he feels it goes great and goes to the ground. That's different. A player going to the ground because he feels someone holding the shirt to this, which is strictly speaking, he's still holding. But when the shirt is not just being held, but dragged over the head of the player so he can't sit anymore.

28:25Shaka Hislop:So he's not able to continue. And I think this is a key thing. Too often, it seems weird. Do you know what this is? It's looking for a misdemeanor rather than allowing the misdemeanor to present itself to you. We're looking for a misdemeanor.

28:39Dan Thomas:That was a penalty. I don't care how we conceptualize it or not. It's a penalty. This is how they fight in hockey. I mean, we should pull the jersey.

28:52Alejandro Moreno:Well, I don't know. He should be able to see through the shirt.

28:59Sid Lowe:All right, final one. Let's go to Ale Moreno's continent, shall we? In South America, in Brazil specifically, now Flamengo basically are going to receive, how I can describe this as, a very, very, very delayed red card. Now, that was the incident there. And then nothing happens. They go to halftime, the break. When they come back out, players back out on the pitch. The coach is ready. They say, oh, no, by the way, remember 15 minutes ago you did something, so you're getting your red card now. Surely we have an issue with this.

29:33Shaka Hislop:This reminds me of a... Go on.

29:36Dan Thomas:No, go ahead. Go ahead, Sid. Go ahead.

29:39Shaka Hislop:I was going to say, this reminds me of a lovely moment when Angel Correa, playing for Atletico Madrid, scored a goal while sitting on the bench. Now, I'll explain what I mean by this. Angel Correa scored a goal for Atletico Madrid. The goal went to a VAR review. the VAR review took so long that in the meantime Simeone had substituted Angel Correa he was sitting on the bench by the time the goal was given so you know how sometimes you get a goal score or score and people run off the bench to celebrate with a guy on the pitch, this time the guys on the pitch ran off the pitch to celebrate with a guy on the bench because the goal that he'd finally been given had taken so long that he'd been taken off by then so it's very similar to that Oh my god

30:19Dan Thomas:There's a protocol problem with this

30:21Sid Lowe:Yeah

30:22Dan Thomas:Yeah. Yeah. There we go. I just don't know exactly how you go about fixing it, but you cannot go all the way through halftime, wait for everybody to come out and say, hey, oh, by the way, you get a red card. There is something wrong with the implementation of the system when we have to go through all of this in order to then present the red card.

30:42Alejandro Moreno:How in South America? Well, that's a bar problem. That's a bar problem. You know, it's not only the fans who go to the bar at halftime. People may be from the booth at the bar. They went to the bar as well. So they don't have the time for that.

30:56Sid Lowe:Oh, Frank, we love him. We love him. That's why Frank will be back as well as Sid for extra time today. We've got some good questions, and we kind of wait to get the guys to answer them.

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32:06Sid Lowe:All right, well, that was an angry time, but we ended up laughing. But a lot of people are angry with our Alex Kirkland in social media because he had this to say in his article about Real Madrid. He says, I'm still not entirely convinced that a side with Kylian Mbappé, Vinny Jr. and Jude Bellingham in it can function consistently and well. He also went on to say, how often have we seen the team play really well? It happened in flashes, but in the majority of games over the last 18 months, the side has looked disjointed, especially against elite opposition. All right, Ale, what did you make of what our colleague Alex Kirkland had to say here?

32:46Dan Thomas:Makes a fair point. The lack of structure and organization of Real Madrid is very clear to see. I do think there is a world in which you can play with all these three players. but you have to change the look of the team and the approach and mindset of the players that we just mentioned. Vinny has to play more central with Kylian Mbappe, side by side. Can't just park yourself on the left-hand side. Both of them have to be willing to do their work defensively and chase around, and at the very least, make the play predictable for other teams when other teams are trying to play out of the back. I'm not saying that you have to chase all the way back there, but at the very least shade the play to one side or the other so that it makes it easy to defend.

33:30Dan Thomas:As for Jude Bellingham, I think there is a role underneath Vinny and Mbappe. And he can be the presence inside the 18-yard box, which he was in his first season in La Liga, successfully so. I think those things can happen. But in order for those things to happen, they have to have structure behind it that also supports that. That builds a platform so that these guys can do what makes them some of the best players in the world. And that platform that I'm talking about does not exist because Chua Manny hasn't become the player that they thought he would because Kamavinga hasn't become the player that they thought he would.

34:06Dan Thomas:They have lost other players that control the pace of the game, mainly Toni Kroos, and they have lost control of matches. And so while we focus on those three names on the front side of the team, the back side of the team, the middle third of the team is where I think this team has the most issues.

34:23Sid Lowe:Sid, what about you? what do you make of what Alex had to say? Of course, he's also alluding to the fact that a lot of these players, you know, they're not going to track back.

34:32Shaka Hislop:I mean, obviously, look, I'm all in favour of anything that encourages people to wade in on Alex Kerr. I think it's very cruel the way that we're trying to expose him. Basically, everything Alex said, I think I agree with him. And everything that Alex has said, I think I agree with him. I think the evidence so far is that it's difficult to make this work. I don't think it's necessarily impossible. I think there needs to be a structure built. And I think I would add one extra thing to what Ali was saying, which is what Ali's talking about in terms of the structure. This is precisely one of the reasons why Xavi Alonso came, to try and create that structure, to try and make this a team that had an identity, that had a clear pattern, that had clear positions.

35:12Shaka Hislop:And I think Jude Bellingham, in a way, is the most interesting one in all this. Because Jude Bellingham, is he a 10? Is he an 8? Is he a 6? What's his role? Where do we want him to be? Which parts of the pitch do we want him to be in? And I think what Alex says is entirely rational, that so far what we've seen is that it isn't quite working with these three. I think Ali's right. It's broader than that. But you have to find a way to make it work. And so far, it hasn't been easy to do so. And so, yeah, completely.

35:37Alejandro Moreno:Frank's going to comment. I don't think so. Sorry. Yeah, Alexi. I mean, Alex is absolutely 100 % right about his comment. But he should have done that statement a little bit before. and he could have done that statement before because, you know, we had the best example in the world some years ago at Paris Saint-Germain. And when Mbappé signed, and I saw Vinicius Junior, Jude Belinga, I said even before they tried to play together that it could be a problem because they don't track back and because they don't make the effort for the rest of the team. And we had the best example with Paris Saint-Germain where you had Messi, Neymar, and Mbappé not doing the job.

36:18Alejandro Moreno:and I don't know why you know, Xabi Alonso tried to correct that, putting Vinicius Jr. sometimes on the bench, Alex said it on his tweet as well, but you cannot play nowadays without one or even, no, sorry two or even one players not tracking back, not doing the job it's impossible, you cannot have a superstar doing the superstar, it's impossible. Maybe it was possible before, but nowadays, impossible.

36:52Sid Lowe:All right. Well, if you are questioning Kylian Mbappe's work rate, don't you worry because his national team coach is going to come to his defense. Didier Deschamps was asked about it and he had this to say, if you want him to run a minimum of 11 kilometers per game, don't bother because he won't do it. It's true that a striker must also be selfish, but I can assure you that in the functioning of the French national team. He behaves like a captain. Frank, you agree?

37:21Alejandro Moreno:Yes, he won't do 11 kilometers. I would love him to do only six kilometers. That would be already good, you know? Yeah, he's a captain, and I know he's a very smart guy, very well-educated, and I'm sure he takes care of his teammates outside of the field. I would love more commitment. I'm sorry, DJ Deschamps has named him as a captain. is not going to say what everybody can see, that, yes, he's a fantastic player. Yes, he can score goals and goals like easy-peasy timing. But we want to see more involvement. We want to see something like you belong to a tactic. You belong to a scheme of playing, which is not I play the ball and when I lose it, run for me, get me the ball back.

38:07Alejandro Moreno:I don't want to see that. It's impossible. I would have never played like that. And I'm pretty sure Didier Deschamps would have had Kylian Mbappé as a teammate. After two minutes, he would have run behind him and tackle him for not running back. So I don't agree with that. Totally agree with that.

38:24Frank Leboeuf:To that point, I agree with Deschamps in that I have no issue with Mbappé if he's not running 11 kilometers. And he's scoring and he's giving what I ask him to do. I'll agree with Frank in that oftentimes we're looking for our captain to be the spark. When things aren't going well, he's the one that drives the team forward. And Kylian Mbappe is not that player. He will always grab the headlines. He'll be the star of the show. But he's not the one you look to when things aren't going well. And to that point, if you look back at the 2022 final, you have a team built around a player like Kylian Mbappe or his lack of running, however you want to look at it.

39:07Frank Leboeuf:but it still functions well. And when the work of final is getting away from them, Deschamps takes off Giroud, moves Kylian Mbappe to the middle, still not tracking back, but has the cover, has the legs around Kylian Mbappe, that France now get themselves back in the final. Final, they lost some penalties, of course. And I think that's the difference here. You can afford one. You can afford one player running less than 11 kilometers with the quality of a Kylian Mbappe. You can't afford two. You certainly cannot afford three. and that's the biggest issue right now for Real Madrid.

39:38Sid Lowe:All right, well, speaking of Real Madrid and kind of Kylian Mbappe, the one who was missing out on appearances at Real Madrid was this man, the youngster from Brazil, Hendrik. But since he's left Real Madrid, at least on loan to go over to Lyon, well, things have been going well. Just have a look at these stats. Just in five games for Lyon, he already has five goals and one assist, whereas at Real Madrid he had only three games, zero goals and zero assists. Ale? Now we're hearing that everyone in the hierarchy at Real Madrid is questioning why Xavi Alonso probably didn't give him more of a chance.

40:14Sid Lowe:And we know that the easy answer is, who is he going to come in for at this rate? But now it's looking like they're questioning if they've lost something special.

40:24Dan Thomas:Well, the first thing that I would say to those that are questioning this is, Lyon, with all due respect, is not Real Madrid. It's not. It isn't. You can do the math, and it's just simply not the case. And performing at Real Madrid is at a different level. And what must be said about Hendrick, as talented a player as he is, is that two managers from two different perspectives have taken a look at him and said, he's not ready yet. Carlo Ancelotti, who takes an approach that is far more of a player-manager, that is far more of a guy who's going to massage a player, put the arm around, was trying to work Hendrick into some sort of rotation.

41:07Dan Thomas:And I have to imagine that he didn't see enough of him, whether at training, whether the way that he carried himself, or when he got opportunities to actually put him out on the field consistently when there were opportunities to do so. In comes another manager from a completely different approach, who's far more structured, who's far more organized, who's far more about this is what we need to do specifically, and this is the role that I think would make you a successful player. and that didn't quite work out either. And so if two managers from two different perspectives have looked at the player and said, it's just not working here, it tells me that maybe, maybe, maybe, dare I say, maybe we look at the player and look at what he was bringing to Real Madrid, what he was not doing at Real Madrid, that now he's doing at Lyon.

41:57Frank?

41:58Alejandro Moreno:So Ali, you are saying that playing for Lyon is easier than playing for Real Madrid. So you are saying that you are more served and you have more chances to score when you play for Lyon than when you play for Real Madrid, where normally you have the players to give you the balls and to make sure that you are getting into a good position to score goals. So I agree with you, maybe that he's too young, maybe he's not ready. But what he's doing right now with Lyon is creating chances. is gaining responsibilities in the game where it should have been served and better served maybe from Real Madrid players.

42:37Dan Thomas:I'm not going to have a discussion with you, Frank, as to whether Lyon is at the same level of Real Madrid. That is just not going to happen. I didn't say that. Well, Real Madrid is at a higher level than Lyon, and the expectations that comes with it and the pressure that comes with it are different than that of Lyon. And so now here's a player that goes into a different setup where he's wanted, where he's appreciated, where he feels like he can be the guy, he has a chance to breathe, and now we're seeing some of the flashes that we saw with Real Madrid. But that can only happen if he made this move.

43:08Dan Thomas:If he were right now at Real Madrid, he would not be doing what he currently is doing at Lyon. I think that's clear.

43:17Alejandro Moreno:I don't agree with that. I mean, that says what I said. I mean, that's, in fact, explain what I just said. I said to Alito, it's easier to play for Real Madrid. Sorry, Frank, we got to push out, but still talking about Real Madrid.

43:29Sid Lowe:Like the Oscars, they play the music, Frank. Because Real Madrid are playing Benfica yet again in the Champions League in just two weeks' time. Now, Real Madrid are favorites, despite the fact that they'll have to do it without the likes of Jude Bellingham, who has a hamstring injury. And now we are hearing that Rodrigo will be missing both legs because he got a red card for verbal abuse after what was quite a fiery match last time these two sides met. So, Sid, how big of a deal is this now that Rodrigo will be missing out as well as Jude Bellingham?

44:02Shaka Hislop:Yeah, at the risk of sounding dismissive, and I think there is a risk of doing so, I'm not convinced this is a massively big deal. Now, I think obviously the absence of Vinicius meant there was a greater chance that Rodrigo would play. And I think he possibly would have started. But I'm not entirely sure he would have done. I'm not entirely sure that Arbelo would have structured the team in that way. I think that they are a good enough side to defeat Benfica, despite what happened last time, over two legs, even with those absentees. And actually, you know, let's take it back to the debate we were having earlier on about trying to find a place in the team for Mbappe, Vinicius and Belling.

44:34Shaka Hislop:Well, two of the three aren't there now. And maybe we'll see Mbappe in a different environment, with different movement around him, with different occupation space. Maybe we'll see a Real Madrid side that covers more ground, that puts more pressure on, that is a more kind of a coherent whole. And so I think, of course it matters. And of course it matters in the context of missing two other big players as well. But I don't think this hurts them as much as other absences will do.

45:00Sid Lowe:All right, well, from Real Madrid, let's focus a little bit now on their rivals, Barcelona, because La Minha Mal, the star boy there, has been speaking out again. He says, my playing style does not rely on goals. It stirs controversy because I can play well and people will say that I didn't play well if I don't score. Then if I score, they say, OK, I scored, but I didn't play well. My goal is to play for the team to win. I'm not thinking about the Ballon d 'Or. I just want to enjoy my football and win titles with Barcelona and the national team. Frank, do you like what Lamin's saying? Yeah, I knew you would.

45:34Alejandro Moreno:Yes, you see. You see, that's the guy who thinks about football, who thinks about his teammates and about collective awards. Thank you, Lamin Yamal. I love you.

45:44Dan Thomas:Aww. So, I'm not thinking about the Ballon d 'Or, but I'm going to mention it. Maybe it wasn't the question. You don't know, Ali. Look, I love me some La Minha Mal. I really do.

45:56Sid Lowe:Not as much as Gabby or Pedri.

45:58Dan Thomas:Well, not as much as Pedri, but I do love me some La Minha Mal. But what I would say is that if you watch his body language in the game against Alba Sete this past week where the ball was not getting to him and he was putting his arms up in the air, that doesn't quite go along with this whole I'm just here to play my football and win titles with Barcelona. La Minha Mal is a tremendous talent. And of course, he should not be thinking about any other thing other than winning titles with Barcelona and playing well. The other thing that he should not concern himself with is what other people are saying, whether he's scoring goals or not.

46:32Dan Thomas:If he feels, and Hansi Flick feels, and his team feels like he's being effective on the field, and he's actually making a difference, that's all he needs. He doesn't need anything from anybody else.

46:44Sid Lowe:All right, well, Laminia Mal will definitely be back in action with Barcelona. They are back in action this weekend against Mallorca. That's on Saturday, 9.45 a.m. Eastern time on YouNowhere ESPN+. And then Real Madrid will be in action on Sunday. Away to Valencia can always be a little bit tricky. You never know. 2.30 p.m. Eastern time for that one.

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48:15Sid Lowe:All right, well, today's a big day for football birthdays. Let me tell you, Neymar's birthdays today as well, and Carlos Tevez. But, let's be honest.

48:25Frank Leboeuf:What about George Hagee?

48:26Sid Lowe:Well, yeah, I mean, I would.

48:28Frank Leboeuf:I thought that's weird.

48:29Sid Lowe:Guys, I just wanted to get to the big man, okay? Cristiano Ronaldo turns 41 years old today. And in honor of the great one, we are going to look back at his top 10 goals for Real Madrid in España, whether it was La Liga or the Copa del Rey. In at number 10, this one in the Copa del Rey final in 2011 against Barcelona.

48:53Frank Leboeuf:Yeah, and it's one of those headers where Granada just seems to get up so much higher than everybody else. Hang for a moment longer than everybody else. Thumping header.

49:01Sid Lowe:They went on to win that game, of course. In at number 9, Real Madrid against Sevilla. This is in 2013. Nice little stepovers and he curls it into the net like Ale Moreno used to do.

49:11Dan Thomas:No, actually not.

49:12Frank Leboeuf:Way too far off of that.

49:14Sid Lowe:Far from it. What about this one? This one's going against that. No, Ali Mourinho never did this either.

49:18Frank Leboeuf:Nope. Absolutely not. Look at this. Look at the movement he gets on that ball.

49:22Sid Lowe:Gotta show the quads, man.

49:24Frank Leboeuf:Need a tan.

49:25Sid Lowe:Oh, yeah. Not anymore, though. He's very tan these days. In at number seven, there's this one against Levante. Nice, another long-range shot.

49:32Dan Thomas:The technique, the ball going up and over. Mourinho loves it.

49:36Sid Lowe:Oh, when things weren't well. In at number six, Real Madrid against Osasuna in 2014. Is that where our grandmothers hang their washing?

49:48Dan Thomas:Get it right. Where my grandmother hangs her clothes. Oh, okay, sorry.

49:52Sid Lowe:That's why I was looking to you, Ale. But Shaq was interrupted. This is it out of a five against Espanyol. Sibling past three players.

49:59Frank Leboeuf:Now he's cut back onto that left and finds it back at the net. Into the top four we go.

50:06Sid Lowe:This one against Betis. Angel Di Maria playing in Ronaldo. He takes a touch. It's happening.

50:11Dan Thomas:Shaq what's going on with your boy. He's like nah. I'm not even a courtesy guy.

50:16Frank Leboeuf:I'm not with the goalie there. Why bother.

50:19Sid Lowe:Top three now this one against Rayo Vallecano in 2012. Nice little back heel.

50:24Frank Leboeuf:It's a long old back heel here. I'm not sure it deserves to be this high. It's nice. I'm not sure I have that number three.

50:30Sid Lowe:But it's just to have the audacity to do it.

50:32Frank Leboeuf:They're far better goals than that.

50:34Sid Lowe:Fair.

50:35Frank Leboeuf:Okay Shaq. All right Shaq. Don't be angry about it. Don't be like this. I'm not angry. It's his goal. It's all his goals. I'm just saying.

50:41Sid Lowe:Xavi Alonso to Ronaldo and talk about long range.

50:46Dan Thomas:Why are we highlighting that Xavi Alonso passed this ball? He completed a 10-yard pass.

50:50Sid Lowe:Guys, we're trying to just paint Xavi back in a good light. It's been a rough. Oh, look at that. Still needs a town, but it's okay, big man. But there can only be one, and this one coming in the Supercopa against Barcelona in 2017.

51:07Sid Lowe:Oh, what say you? For number one?

51:10Frank Leboeuf:I think there have been better goals in this list. Okay, wow. See, when I say that, I get accused of being angry. No, Sean. You were a little angry. No, I wasn't angry at all. I wasn't angry at all. You were a little angry. It's all his goals. You were a combination of six. Oh, well. Oh, well. Never mind the tag. Just like you. The top half of the tag is working quite well.

51:28Sid Lowe:The top half of the tag is working well. Sid, what did you make of those goals? Which one was your number one?

51:33Shaka Hislop:Don't be angry.

51:35Sid Lowe:Don't be angry.

51:35Shaka Hislop:Do you know what? I think my number one. Furious about this. I'm so annoyed. I'm actually very angry because the goal that most stands out for me is, apart from the one that actually he scored at the Camp Nou, which pretty much won the league title, I think I remember it being against Villarreal. He scores a backheel volley against Villarreal, and he jumps up in the air and kind of twists himself, almost Matrix-esque, and scores with a backheel volley. So I think that, for me, is the goal that most sticks in the mind from his time at Real Madrid, which isn't on the list. Which that list, I suppose, if you strung those goals together, given how far out they were, what is he?

52:08Shaka Hislop:He's shooting from Barcelona and scoring in Madrid. Oh, just about.

52:13Sid Lowe:Just about, pretty much.

52:14Dan Thomas:So here's what happens with Sid today. We had like 10 clips for him, and he started referencing clips that we did not have. Now we showed him 10 great goals from Ronaldo, and he references one that we didn't show him. Do you know what I'm doing, Ali?

52:29Shaka Hislop:Do you know what I'm doing? I'm subtly, very subtly undermining producer Pete. I'm doing all I can. That's what it is.

52:36Frank Leboeuf:It sends out a rule. Last week he was arguing with me, saying that strikers should be allowed to just run and kick the ball out of the goalie's hands. That that's all fair game. He's on a roll, huh, Sidney? Oh, boy.

52:48Sid Lowe:Okay. All right. Well, you know there are rumors that Cristiano Ronaldo is currently unhappy with his situation in Saudi. Well, could he be going to MLS? Well, we'll be talking about that shortly on tonight's Football Americas. Cristina Alexander-Hercules Gomez and Mauricio Pedrosa are on it, 8.30 p.m., Because we are working right now.

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54:46Sid Lowe:Jackers, our rankings and a couple of surprises in here. How beautiful does that list look?

54:54Frank Leboeuf:Let me just say, Bayern are out after drawing with, who was it, Hamburg and lost to Augsburg the week before. So they're out. Porto are out because they lost the league. Look at you putting this week at Shaq. I know. He's all over it. I'm hammering everybody. Don't you dare draw a game around here. But for the second week running, Manchester United.

55:18Dan Thomas:Stay top. You're not good.

55:20Frank Leboeuf:Hard work of it and keep it over against Fulham. But they got the win. They deserve to stay there. Barca to Arsenal, our backup, given by in struggles and how convincing they were in the cup. PSG Inter. Olympiacos are in. Hoffenheim, third in the Bundesliga, putting together a very good run. Let's not be surprised. You don't know the rest. You don't know the rest, do you? Bodo Glimt was there. And I can't remember who else. I'll put it.

55:50Sid Lowe:Augsburg is there. Augsburg is still there. After they beat Bayern and continue to win.

55:54Frank Leboeuf:And who else? Hoffenheim. And Hoffenheim. Oh, yeah, I said Hoffenheim.

55:58Sid Lowe:Oh, you said Hoffenheim. Oh, Milan.

56:00Frank Leboeuf:And Milan are putting together a decent run. Yeah, there you go. That's the 10. That's the 10. These are your rankings, right? Yeah.

56:07Sid Lowe:And I know Ale definitely has no problem with the top team there, Manchester United, in case everybody missed that graphic. But Ale, what do you make of it?

56:15Dan Thomas:Well, it's obvious that Shaka, much like the rest of the world, has fully and wholeheartedly drank the Kool-Aid when it comes to Manchester United. I suppose it's a good time to be a Manchester United fan. Have some nice Kool-Aid. You've gone through some dark times. You would know this, Alexis, and we're only talking about Manchester United, nothing else. And obviously now it's time to be excited. Shaka's excited. I'm a positive guy. I'm not angry like Sid nor Frank. So I'll celebrate Shaka's algorithm this week.

56:45Sid Lowe:We celebrated.

56:46Frank Leboeuf:I like how Sid has become the bar for angry people. For angry people.

56:51Sid Lowe:I love how Alex said that I know about dark times. He's talking about me supporting Manchester United, not my love life or anything. What? I'm sorry, what? Which is very much like Manchester United's life at the moment as well. All right. Frankie, what did you make of our boy Shaka's power rankings?

57:12Alejandro Moreno:I think it shows that Shaka needs to go on holidays to the carnival. He's getting very tired.

57:22Frank Leboeuf:Oh, he's counting now. You should say that, Frank. He's counting now. Three shows left.

57:29Sid Lowe:Technically two. Two and a half.

57:30Frank Leboeuf:Two and a little bit.

57:32Sid Lowe:Two and a quarter. Two and a quarter. Who's counting? Shaka.

57:35Frank Leboeuf:What about Sid? Sid, what did you make?

57:37Sid Lowe:What did you make of this list? Or are you going to mention teams that aren't on the list?

57:42Shaka Hislop:I'm just disappointed that we're going to reach the very end of Shaq's power rankings and I'm still going to know what the criteria is. This is based on...

57:52Dan Thomas:That's the point, Sid. It's a moving target. There is no criteria.

57:58Sid Lowe:You know, just that much like we do in the Caribbean when we're cooking, we season with heart, with feeling. So Shaq just does his power rankings.

58:05Frank Leboeuf:It's a closely guarded secret. It's right there with Colonel Sanders' special recipe with the formula for Coke and the power rankings. The what? The formula for Coca-Cola. Oh, goodness.

58:18Sid Lowe:All right, there's Bundesliga action coming your way. Bundesliga Shaq this weekend. Happy other Sunday. Shaq will be on that game on Sunday. Bayern Munich up against Hoffenheim, who weren't his power rankings. Huge implications for the power rankings. Yes, Shaq, tell us. What about Wolfsburg-Dortmund? Why should we watch that?

58:33Frank Leboeuf:I'm just, well, you won't be seeing me next week for the power rankings.

58:36Sid Lowe:Not that much.

58:39Frank Leboeuf:Oh, boy.

58:41Sid Lowe:The power rankings will be taking a break for about a month because Xhaka's going off.

58:46Dan Thomas:Why watch Wolfsburg and Marussia Dortmund? Because I'm going to be Bayern Munich. Offenheim. Exactly.

58:52Sid Lowe:That's it for this edition of the NFC. Don't go anywhere, though, because Extra Time is next.

59:01Sid Lowe:All right. Welcome into Extra Time. We've got Frankie's back, Sim's back, and Angry Sim. Xhaka, I have a question.

59:09Alejandro Moreno:Go ahead. When you go to Trinidad and Tobago, are you going to see Dwight York?

59:16Frank Leboeuf:I think so, you know. I think he may be there. I'm not sure. I think he's going to be there.

59:21Alejandro Moreno:So, I understand why you put... I know I understand the power rankings. So, okay, I got it. I got it.

59:28Dan Thomas:Frank, you're assuming that he puts this much thought into it.

59:35Frank Leboeuf:Well, that's a mistake.

59:36Sid Lowe:Shaka did it just to give me something to smile about.

59:39Frank Leboeuf:I'm easily bribed, Frank. You're easily bribed. You're easily bribed. We know. That's also part of the formula, Sid. All right.

59:48Sid Lowe:Speaking of Sid, it's the very first question, and it's for Sid. Sid, it's been nearly 15 years since you wrote Fear and Loathing in La Liga. If you could add two chapters to describe what has gone on since, what would they be like? Wow, how much time do we have? What a question. I know.

1:00:06Shaka Hislop:Wow. Wow. All right, look, obviously, since it was written, we've had Real Madrid go on that incredible Champions League run. The only problem with that, I suppose, as a chapter, as a focal point of a book about the rivalry, is that their Champions League run isn't so much about the rivalry. But I guess you could do that thing of you've got a Barcelona team that's dominating domestically and Madrid dominating in European terms. And the other really interesting thing, I suppose, is the politics and the business of the last four or five years, in which because of the Super League project, you've had Madrid and Barcelona on the same side, on the same side and now very spectacularly broken up again.

1:00:43Shaka Hislop:And very spectacularly broken up again, of course, around the Negreda case. So that would be another focal point as well. You know, so much of the story is built on the idea that the other team is somehow not playing fair. So the relationship between the two and the influence upon that of the Negreda case, which is one of the great scandals, of course, of Spanish football history, would maybe be an interesting extra chapter.

1:01:03Dan Thomas:I don't want to be an editor. I couldn't, honestly. No, thanks. I don't want to be an editor for Sid. No. But there's a chapter. There's nothing to edit.

1:01:12Sid Lowe:It's perfect.

1:01:13Dan Thomas:There's a chapter to be added on the post-Ronaldo, post-Messi, Real Madrid and Barcelona and what they have become both on and off the field.

1:01:22Sid Lowe:Wow. Sid, you better get writing soon.

1:01:24Dan Thomas:I don't have to write that piece on VAR.

1:01:27Frank Leboeuf:Oh, yes. I would rather do anything than write another book.

1:01:31Sid Lowe:Sid's next book is going to be about VAR and officiating in Spain.

1:01:35Frank Leboeuf:Fear and loathing in VAR. That would be fascinating, wouldn't it? Oh, that would be so much fun. Mostly loathing.

1:01:41Sid Lowe:Fear and mostly loathing in VAR.

1:01:45Shaka Hislop:Maybe I could write a whole book uncovering the secret formula behind Shaq's power rankings. Oh, that you will never get.

1:01:55Dan Thomas:You're going to need your glasses for that, Sid.

1:01:58Sid Lowe:All right, next question. Is every international player from now until the final whistle of the season not thinking 100 % about the league team, but more on a don't-get-injured-or-spent World Cup-bound chance with their national team? Hence their consistency issues, like Twix's old tagline, two for me, none for you, Biz. Frank, you didn't like that one?

1:02:22Alejandro Moreno:No, because every World Cup or every international tournament, we have that question. They are football players. They go for it. If you start thinking of that, it's when you're going to get injured. I'm pretty sure. So you go for it, you play, and if you are in good shape, you're going to play the World Cup or you're going to play the European Championship or some other things in South America. But no, you don't think about, oh, I'm going to slow down because I don't want to get injured. No, it's when you're going to get injured if you do that.

1:02:54Frank Leboeuf:Agreed.

1:02:55Sid Lowe:Everyone.

1:02:56Frank Leboeuf:I concur.

1:02:57Dan Thomas:You concur. I concur. You know, Shaq, that you're not going on vacation right now. So if you want to give a longer answer, you can.

1:03:05Frank Leboeuf:Thanks for letting me know, Alan.

1:03:11Sid Lowe:He's rationing his answer because he has the last two more shows. Oh, I love how Shaq has already checked out, already mentally checked out. Next question. Who's more likely to win the Champions League this season, Manchester City or Liverpool?

1:03:25Frank Leboeuf:Oh, God.

1:03:26Sid Lowe:Let's let Shaq answer this one.

1:03:30Frank Leboeuf:Too much thinking. I can't see either of them winning. But who's more likely of the two? I don't know. That's like seeing who's more likely to play for Real Madrid. Me or Ali. None of us are doing it. Hang on.

1:03:43Dan Thomas:Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. I think that answer is clear. That's good.

1:03:50Sid Lowe:I mean, Ali does have the diving and the theatrics that officials in Spain are willing to overlook.

1:03:57Frank Leboeuf:That's a fair point, so then I guess I have to give an answer. Oh, boy. Just say who you trust. I'm going to say City are more likely. Okay, good. Really? City are more likely? All right. If City gets everybody back, City are more likely. Oh, no. See, now you're... I don't know how to...

1:04:18Dan Thomas:What do you mean?

1:04:18Sid Lowe:...difference between them two. No, I'm winning it. Sid, what do you think? I know you're a Liverpool man.

1:04:28Shaka Hislop:I know. Yeah, I somehow feel, I can't help feeling that City at some point will get it right, but then the evidence over the last 18 months is that that's just not true. I'm going to go Liverpool.

1:04:38Sid Lowe:Ah, shock. Frank?

1:04:42Alejandro Moreno:I go for Liverpool because of the recent results and the fact that some players are getting better and the other side. Manchester City not getting good right now so I'm going for Liverpool.

1:04:58Dan Thomas:Oh, you want an answer for me? Hi. Don't stare at me like that. I thought you could feel it.

1:05:04Sid Lowe:You could feel the stare.

1:05:07Dan Thomas:I'm going to say begrudgingly Manchester City.

1:05:13Sid Lowe:You just have that much more faith in them.

1:05:16Frank Leboeuf:Very little. Yeah, that's a lie. I didn't have to use that term either.

1:05:21Sid Lowe:Okay, cool. Next question. Shaka.

1:05:24Frank Leboeuf:Oh. Yeah.

1:05:25Sid Lowe:What? He hates this. He's going to have to think again. Shaka, what did you make of Romero's Insta post and subsequent Thomas Frank comments saying that it's being handled in-house?

1:05:36Frank Leboeuf:Nothing. On either side. I applaud Romero for saying what he said. I think it's there for everybody to see. Yeah. While like this, and I still don't understand why players feel a need to go to social media to speak up, but I guess that's today's game. But I saw nothing wrong with what he said. I applauded. I saw nothing wrong with Thomas Frank's response either. I thought that was on the point as well.

1:06:04Sid Lowe:Frank, what did you make of it?

1:06:07Alejandro Moreno:I agree 100 % with Xhaka. I concur. That's exactly what I fear. No, no, but it's true. It's true. There's nothing to say. You know, Romero made the right comments, and Tomás Frank reacted to it in the right way. So nothing much to say. They showed their love for the club, let's say.

1:06:28Sid Lowe:All right. Well, there you go. I mean, Cristiano Romero is someone that has definitely been outspoken before. So at least people are getting... I'm all for people airing things out. Get it out. We're just festers inside.

1:06:37Frank Leboeuf:Not everything. Not everything needs to be aired, Alexis.

1:06:40Sid Lowe:Maybe not on social media, but it's good that they have healthy dialogue.

1:06:44Frank Leboeuf:Not an extra time either, Alexis. Not everything needs to be aired.

1:06:47Sid Lowe:What am I airing?

1:06:49Frank Leboeuf:We're still talking about Christian Domingo. Yeah. All right.

1:06:52Sid Lowe:I'm just saying, you know, it's good to see that. You have healthy conversations. All right. I suppose on social media, but we move. All right, Sid. Oh, no, me. Oh, me. Oh. Who are your favorite United players from each decade, 1980 and onwards? Wow, 1980. Well, I wasn't born, so. I would start from 1990s But 1980s I do love me a Brian Robson I have met him many a time At Old Trafford And he's just I love me some Robbo 90s Wow that is hard How do you choose I could say Yorkie Because that's who made me Like Manchester United I mean there is Giggsie There is my boy Cantona Who is very dramatic And I think of myself As very dramatic as well But I love me a Paul Scholes.

1:07:40Frank Leboeuf:All right.

1:07:41Sid Lowe:A Paul Scholes, man. I would have 11 of Scholesies if I could.

1:07:45Frank Leboeuf:And the Nuts? Well done.

1:07:47Sid Lowe:That's like Y2K, right? Yeah. Oh, gosh, that's hard. Oh, that is hard, too.

1:07:55Frank Leboeuf:Tens?

1:07:55Sid Lowe:I mean, I feel like that's when Cristiano Ronaldo came in. And then once Cristiano's there, I don't think anyone's beating it for me. And he goes again into the tens. But I am going to make a special place in the tens for either, and Shaka will love this, Edwin van der Sar, love me an Edwin van der Sar, Great Wall of Holland, and a Nemanja Vidic. I feel like I would have had all Nemanja Vidic's in my back line if I could today.

1:08:21Frank Leboeuf:Fair enough. Tens?

1:08:23Sid Lowe:Oh, this is where it gets hard. Respectfully.

1:08:27Frank Leboeuf:No, that was tens. This is the 20s.

1:08:30Sid Lowe:Yeah, 20s.

1:08:31Frank Leboeuf:This is where the pain begins. This is where the pain began and continues.

1:08:38Sid Lowe:You know what? It may be a controversial opinion, but I'm going to go with my boy, Marcus Rashford. I do love me some Marcus. I know he's obviously not United now,

1:08:46Frank Leboeuf:but there is nobody that represents

1:08:49Sid Lowe:and loves Manchester United quite like him. So I'm going to say Marcus.

1:08:52Frank Leboeuf:There you go.

1:08:53Sid Lowe:There you go.

1:08:54Frank Leboeuf:I'm not sure I'm in a position to concur or not, but carry on.

1:08:58Sid Lowe:Yeah, that was my question.

1:08:59Frank Leboeuf:Slim pickings.

1:09:01Dan Thomas:Slim pickings in the 20s. Slim pickings in the 20s.

1:09:04Sid Lowe:But it is what it is. Next question is for Sid. Sid, Matarazzo has hit the ground running at Real Sociedad. How surprised are you by his early success? And is his flexibility a refreshing change from system-first managers?

1:09:20Shaka Hislop:Yeah, I mean, I think we shouldn't assume there is no system. But I think he has been flexible. I think they've been adaptable depending on the game. I think he's clearly reached the player in a way that Seca Francisco, the previous manager, just couldn't do. You listen to the players now, and lots of players, when a new manager comes in, they always kind of say, oh, he's really changed that mindset, he's much, much better. But you listen to him now and you can tell they're telling the truth, that this isn't just a platitude, that he's found a way of getting them competing. So am I surprised? I'm surprised that he's gone seven games without losing.

1:09:53Shaka Hislop:Admittedly, one of those games is a game against Barcelona and then not losing was a little bit of a miracle. But I'm not actually surprised that he got a reaction from what I think is a very talented squad and shouldn't have been anywhere near as bad as they are. But what he's done so far has been virtually flawless from the very, very start. And it's brilliant to see because they're a great club and it feels like he's really connected with the city as well as with the team. So, yeah, I'm really, really pleased.

1:10:18Dan Thomas:Shaq, is that your Twitter handle when you go to Carnival? Fat Party Animal 1.

1:10:28Frank Leboeuf:At Fat Party Animal 1. Yep, you just wait. You just wait.

1:10:37Sid Lowe:No, the fat party animal. We'll say tall party animal. That's what he is. Next question is for Ale. Ale, I've been getting into the NFL recently and watched a lot of analysis. With the Super Bowl coming up, it feels like the quarterback is all anyone talks about as the heart and brain of the team. Is there a position or player in our football that's comparable to a quarterback? Good question. I would say the goalkeeper is the brain of the team. Right, Chaka?

1:11:09Dan Thomas:The obvious answer when it comes to the quarterback of the team would be somebody who is in the middle of the park and who controls the tempo of the game for a particular team. So if you are thinking of Real Madrid over the last decade, think Toni Kroos. That sort of kind of maybe translate into the same sort of control that you need from the quarterback position and understanding of where everybody needs to be on the field you would like it to be to where players and on the field on the soccer field would know their roles in in a manner in which you didn't have to have tony cross telling you to go left or go right the difference in in our soccer or in our football is that you as a player you may have a game plan as to what you want to do as a team, but you're not limited by you're going to run 10 yards here and then cut and run a post or a curl route or whatever the case may be as a wide receiver.

1:12:12Dan Thomas:There is more room for you to be able to create, whereas in the NFL, if you get creative as a route runner, you may get yourself in trouble because much of the game is about anticipation from the quarterback. And the quarterback is expecting you to be somewhere. And he's anticipating the throw. And he's putting the ball where you're supposed to be. You decide to get creative. Now, of a sudden, it's an interception. It's a turnover. So that's where the sort of similarities and differences begin between the two games.

1:12:46Sid Lowe:Our Ale Moreno, what can't this man analyze?

1:12:49Alejandro Moreno:Can I say something? Can I say something? Of course, Frank. In my time, you know, in my time, I was seeing the quarterback in my position, where I saw Franz Bickenbauer, Ronald Koeman playing for Real Madrid, Fernando Hierro, Laurent Blanc, and some others where, in fact, I thought that they were like quarterbacks because they were leading the game and the first pass, and they can have long range as well passes, and they were deciding for the game. You don't have that positioning anymore. But I felt that those players were like quarterbacks in my time where they were really starting the action.

1:13:34Alejandro Moreno:It's maybe what I thought at the time that could be compared as a quarterback. All right.

1:13:42Sid Lowe:We'll leave it at that one then. All right. I'm ready for Super Bowl now. Next question is for Sid. Sid, prime David Villa or prime Fernando Torres?

1:13:51Frank Leboeuf:Oh, boy.

1:14:00Shaka Hislop:Can they not play together? I mean, they've played together with the Spanish national team. Okay, I'm going to go for Fernando Torres.

1:14:09Sid Lowe:Want to say why?

1:14:10Shaka Hislop:Just a little bit more to his game. Yeah, more physically imposing, more dynamic, more explosive, more exciting. I think David Rivera is a subtle player, a brilliant footballer who I think has been overlooked far too much during his career. and particularly in Spain because he didn't play for Madrid or Barcelona until later on and he didn't really have that kind of that lobby behind him. And also, I suppose, the fact that Fernando Torres went to England and at least for the first 18 months before kind of injuries got caught up with him and before he started to struggle a little bit. I think those first 18 months or so at Liverpool were so electric.

1:14:43Shaka Hislop:So, yeah, I think Fernando Torres.

1:14:45Dan Thomas:That 18-month period at Liverpool, at that point, Fernando Torres was the best out-of-house striker in the world. Yeah. And I think people forget because of what he ended up becoming post-injuries, and it's almost as if people just forget about what he was, and what he was is that dynamic, fast, change of pace, strong finisher, a guy who had movement with and without the ball. Fernando Torres was an excellent player. Injuries played a major part in his career.

1:15:18Sid Lowe:And the next question is for Frank. Frank, what is your favorite Winter Olympic sport?

1:15:25Frank Leboeuf:Oh boy.

1:15:27Alejandro Moreno:I love all of them, you know, and of course skiing and seeing the guy going so fast. I love skiing and I was last month in the Alps. Of course. And I love it and I realize, you know, when you go for a long slope, you know, without stopping and the pace that they go, the speed that they put and how hard it is for the quads, you know, when you finish it. It's really amazing. So I'm very fond of skiers and I love, but I love Olympic sport. How do you call that when the guys and the girls dancing and ice skating? Yeah, I love it. It's very, it's so beautiful to watch. I love to watch that too.

1:16:16Dan Thomas:There is figure skating that you do in pairs, but there is also ice dancing. There are two different competitions. She has ice dancing.

1:16:24Sid Lowe:Ice dancing. Ice dancing. I didn't even know that. I love it. You know ice dancing?

1:16:29Dan Thomas:You don't remember from the UK the ice dancers, Torville and Dean or something like that? Come on. You know, if you don't know your Olympic history.

1:16:37Sid Lowe:Once there's ice and winter involved, Shaq and I take ourselves out. Don't do me. Where do you think I'm from? I don't know. But that's what I'm questioning. Don't even bring in cool runnings at the box.

1:16:51Alejandro Moreno:That wasn't two American girls fighting, you know, in ice dancing and one tried to stab the other one.

1:16:57Dan Thomas:That's ice skating. That's ice skating. That's Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding.

1:17:01Alejandro Moreno:Tonya Harding, yeah. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Well, that's kind of the same. It's a little healthy competition.

1:17:08Sid Lowe:You got to do what you got to do sometimes, right?

1:17:10Dan Thomas:Whoa, whoa, whoa.

1:17:13Sid Lowe:That was dark. Next question. Who are you calling from ESPN FC if you're on Jeopardy, the game show, when you have to use phone a friend? So someone very knowledgeable across.

1:17:26Frank Leboeuf:I'm calling Ali. Really? Yeah.

1:17:28Sid Lowe:I feel like that too.

1:17:30Frank Leboeuf:I'm calling you. You have to make sure someone will actually pick up. Exactly. Because Ali won't pick up. I'm calling Ali. I'm calling you. I'm calling Ali.

1:17:40Sid Lowe:I feel like I'd call Gab. Gab looks like he knows a lot about a lot.

1:17:44Dan Thomas:And if he doesn't, he'll tell you that he knows it. He'll let you know that he knows something.

1:17:50Frank Leboeuf:Every question is about VAR, I'm calling Sid. Yeah, any VAR questions, I'm calling Sid.

1:17:57Sid Lowe:Ale, what about you?

1:17:58Dan Thomas:Who are you calling? Well, out of principle, I'm not calling God. Because if he gets it right, then he's going to be hanging it over your head. He's going to be hanging it over you. He's like, you won because of me. He's going to want half the prize. Yeah, yeah. You know what? There's a lot of books behind Sid. Yeah. All that information has to go somewhere. I'm going to go with Sidlow.

1:18:17Sid Lowe:You're going to go with Sidlow? All right. So if Ali's calling Sidlow, who does Sidlow call?

1:18:22Shaka Hislop:I'm calling Ali back. So what is the question again?

1:18:30Frank Leboeuf:What do you think? We're going to lose. We're going to lose, Sid. Just go with your gut.

1:18:38Sid Lowe:Shaka already said he's calling Ali, and Ali doesn't answer very many calls. So you're running the risk, Sid, surely.

1:18:45Shaka Hislop:Can I call you? Yeah, would you know the answer?

1:18:50Sid Lowe:Well, it depends on what era. If you're going to ask me about 70s, 80s when I wasn't born, probably not.

1:18:56Dan Thomas:If the question is about the 1998... You said she won't know the answer.

1:19:01Sid Lowe:Don't call her Frank. I know a lot about history. Don't call her, Sid. I do love history.

1:19:11Sid Lowe:cheers jazza sid and i have many a good deep chat sid so i i appreciate if you would call

1:19:19Shaka Hislop:i think i think the answer i think the answer is gab but the thing is you've just i mean as someone who's not a regular watcher of jeopardy just just explain to me um does this answer we need to be given out quickly because if it needs to be given out quickly then then I'm bringing gas. It's just not going to work.

1:19:37Frank Leboeuf:Actually, to be honest, you don't get to call anybody on Jeopardy. No, it's not Jeopardy. Who wants to be a millionaire?

1:19:43Sid Lowe:It's Who Wants to Be a Millionaire.

1:19:44Frank Leboeuf:Who wants to be a millionaire as a show. Is that show still around?

1:19:48Sid Lowe:I don't know, but I still want to be a millionaire. Frank, who are you calling from all of us?

1:19:54Alejandro Moreno:Not seriously. I would call Craig to hear him saying, I don't give the stuff. That would be funny. That's true. But seriously, I would call our producer of today's show Pete, Pete, because he knows exactly about everything. He knows a lot about a lot.

1:20:13Dan Thomas:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pete would know a lot about useless facts in movies.

1:20:18Sid Lowe:Yeah, but would he answer? That's the thing. But would he answer? That's the thing.

1:20:21Dan Thomas:I don't know. I think Sid's had enough of us, to be honest with you. Yeah, Sid's... He's taking the headphones off. He's like, I get it.

1:20:29Frank Leboeuf:I'm out. He's all right. Don't worry. He died on me, unfortunately. You're making angry city even angrier.

1:20:34Dan Thomas:We've had a long show.

1:20:35Sid Lowe:His AirPods died and he tried to play it off, but I could hear my echo.

1:20:39Dan Thomas:You can call me if you want to, but I'm not going to answer.

1:20:42Sid Lowe:All right, well, the last question is for Frank LeBeau. Frank, start, bench, or drop the following. French fries, French bread, French toast.

1:20:53Frank Leboeuf:Oh, boy.

1:20:55Sid Lowe:Are any of those actually French or French bread?

1:20:58Alejandro Moreno:So I will go for French bread because that's really French. And the two others are not even French. French fries are from Belgium and French toast, I don't know, I guess it's from America. So, but I go for French bread, French fries, then French toast.

1:21:16Sid Lowe:Wow, dropping French toast. That's, I love it. It's too greasy.

1:21:23Frank Leboeuf:You can't beat a good French fry. You have French fries with French toast.

1:21:26Sid Lowe:You know what, I'm not really a French fry person.

1:21:27Dan Thomas:But he said, he said, he said French bread first. Yeah. Yeah. OK. I'm going to go French bread first. So you put the French bread first? Yeah. French bread first. I'm agreeing. But you just said you can't beat a good French bread. No, no.

1:21:37Frank Leboeuf:I agree with him. French bread is top. Then the discussion becomes between French fries and French toast. And I go fries.

1:21:45Dan Thomas:I'm going to tell you something. I don't know if we can mention the brand or not, but the Golden Arches French fries. Fire. Fire. On a day after you've been out, Shaq? No. Just think about you being out.

1:21:58Frank Leboeuf:Again, without mentioning the brand, there's five gentlemen that do really good fries.

1:22:05Dan Thomas:Yes, yes, yes. There's five. There's five of them. Yeah, five. I'm four North Stable.

1:22:11Frank Leboeuf:It's five of them. Five of them. Those are the worst fries. Those fries. But that too.

1:22:16Sid Lowe:I could go for some five gentlemen fries.

1:22:19Frank Leboeuf:Less than six gentlemen.

1:22:21Sid Lowe:I love it. You know who gets some five gentlemen fries? They're hanging out. They're hanging out. They may make other things too.

1:22:28Frank Leboeuf:A collection of gentlemen.

1:22:30Sid Lowe:A collection of gentlemen. That can figure out what I'm at. All right, make sure to catch us on ESPN FC, available seven days a week. We're off to go get some five gentlemen's fries.

1:22:58Frank Leboeuf:What shirt goes with what pants? I just want jeans that fit.

1:23:02Sid Lowe:Stitch Fix makes shopping easy. Just show your size, style, and budget. And your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. No subscription required, plus free shipping and returns.

1:23:12Frank Leboeuf:Man, that was easy.

1:23:13Sid Lowe:That looked good. Stitch Fix, online personal styling for everyone. Take your style quiz today at stitchfix.com.