Spurs Continue to Spiral

17:43Frank Leboeuf:I think they feel it in the moment. Okay. I think they feel it in the moment. And we've spoken about this at post-game press conferences where there's a manager or player who is asked to speak. You get the very raw emotion of that moment. The disappointment of dropping points in a game that you needed to win to keep your title chance, or at least push, alive. But once it just settles, you know yeah listen okay maybe could have gone our way but but let's be honest so many other things during the course of the season did right um complaining about it is is really nonsensical but you are you speak to players immediately after the after the game that's the reaction you're going to get it's always going to be emotionally charged even if it is a little bit

18:26Dan Thomas:unfair we know dr shaka is up this very level-headed man uh is he speaking on behalf of all players saying Adam.

18:33Alejandro Moreno:No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Dr. Shaka speaks only for himself and nobody else. I think obviously after the game the emotion is there, but for the way that football works and fan bases work, they would have spent so much time watching Arsenal and other teams near the top and every decision that they think is 50-50 goals Arsenal's way, obviously that should have gone that way. But it would be the same for Arsenal and other teams, whoever you're up against. You can't just casually watch games of football when you're very much involved in every second of it. And also, if it's a 50-50 decision, it goes your way.

19:06Alejandro Moreno:You will believe that it was always the right decision anyway. No one remembers at the end of the season all the good luck that they've had. They just remember the decisions they feel that should have gone their way. And I think that's pretty much me speaking on behalf of everyone else, except for Dr. Shaka.

19:20Dan Thomas:Okay, so yesterday, our fine doctor had it at 78 % to 22 % wise with regards to Arsenal winning the title. Stevie went 60-40 I think Nathan where do you go with this?

19:33Alejandro Moreno:I think I'm probably closer towards Xhaka to be honest I think it's more an 80-20 type issue because for City they have to remain perfect but some of the games that they have I can see roadblocks with that especially with the Champions League potentially going on for at least another round and potentially an FA Cup run as well so I could see them potentially dropping more points but the fact is Arsenal have it in their hands they can afford to play against City they could lose by 20 goals to City potentially in the weeks ahead and it might not make any difference whatsoever and not least in my opinion those last four games for Arsenal the games where you'd really fancy them to be able to do enough to win that to sort of see things through so yeah I'm leaning I'm probably gonna go 80 20 obviously it's not impossible football can change very very quickly but Arsenal dropping points and dropping that many points as they're already in the 30 game bracket.

20:24Alejandro Moreno:I just don't see it, to be honest.

20:25Dan Thomas:I've just seen that, Rodney. That's pretty nice for Arsenal, isn't it? I've seen that before. Wow. There we go. At least we don't have to discuss that at length. Arsenal can win the title, and if they don't, they've really mucked it up, haven't they? Of course, they went to Brighton yesterday. People thought that maybe that could see a swing in the title race. However, with Manchester City dropping points and Arsenal getting the three against Brighton, all the talk has turned to the style in which Arsenal have gone about their ways, particularly yesterday against Brighton where a lot of time was wasted.

20:52Dan Thomas:This is what Fabian Hurtster, the Brighton manager, had to say. There was only one team that tried to play football tonight. I will never be the kind of manager who tries to win it that way. The Premier League has to make clearer rules for time-wasting because they have to protect the referee. Sid Lowe joins us as well to join in this discussion about if Arsenal have any obligation to play football better or not to time-waste Natham. I just want to start with you on this though.

21:23Alejandro Moreno:Yeah, it's an interesting one because they sit atop of the tree and the way that they've done it at times hasn't really made some people happy about it. But in the grand scheme of things, if you're an Arsenal player, fan, anyone associated with the club, who cares? The referee is going to referee the game however he sees it. If he thinks they're taking too long, he'll try and speed them up. But if he doesn't, then play right into it. I think all of us who've played the game before at whatever level, you will push it as far as you can push it. And if there are times when you need to slow things down when you're under pressure do it If you win in a game you want to kill some time kill the clock We've encouraged people to kill the clock before and if it's also a case of you know You want to take as much time as possible to set up a set piece then so be it.

22:01Alejandro Moreno:It's your prerogative If someone wants to tell you otherwise Then fine, but the only person's opinion that matters is the referees and if they start to get punished for it Then fair enough, but I think that game yesterday probably plays into The narrative a little bit more because like Brighton are the quickest team in terms of their restarts and so on. They want the ball and play as much as possible all the time and play a certain style, which at times can be very different to Arsenal. But one team's in mid-table, one team's top of the tree potentially on the way to winning the league title. So the way that Arsenal do it, if everyone was doing it, it would probably affect the league in a certain way.

22:35Alejandro Moreno:But they've got very, very clear objectives of what they want to achieve this season. And the way that they do it is going to be completely down for them. And them make them rush make them be behind so they have to speed things up but if you have no control over that unfortunately it's just the way it's gonna have to be who would have thought atletico madrid would be trendsetters sid i thought you were going to bring gettape into the equation

23:00Shaka Hislop:there they're the real they're the real trendsetters in spain syd and his spanish cliques

23:06Dan Thomas:stick with people that teams that will watch sid uh atleti of course are renowned for these dark cards uh is it a problem for football overall um i mean i suppose look i mean without without

23:20Shaka Hislop:necessarily taking this into into the into the arsenal territory as a broader question you say a kind of a conceptual question i mean by the way from arsenal's point of view um correct me if i'm wrong and i say this from spain not following english football as closely as any of you lot do but but over the last two or three years hasn't there been this constant thing of saying ah arsenal you know they've got a soft underbelly they don't see it over the line it's even more reason for and say, right, well, you know what, however we do this, we're going to do this. I think it does matter a little bit if people turn off, if people genuinely aren't interested in it, if people genuinely find it boring, then it's problematic because people will switch off a TV, they will stop going to games and they won't watch it anymore.

23:55Shaka Hislop:But for the most part, I think actually football fans, you know, of course we want it to be fun. Of course we want it to be an open game. Of course we want it to be exciting. But most fans go to the ground desperately wanting their team to win. I don't think there will be a single Arsenal fan who says, yeah, we won the league for the first time in goodness knows how many years, but I'll tell you what, we were a bit dull. There's no reason for them to think that, and none of them will.

24:18Dan Thomas:This is, of course, the big talking point yesterday. Dombrot, Ray are going down for two minutes. You wouldn't do this, would you? Be back on your feet, getting on with the game.

24:26Frank Leboeuf:OK, if that's the direction we're going to go. Listen, I have no issue at all with ourselves. They're playing within the rules, albeit we can frame it as the dark arts as much as you like, but to Nadam's point you're playing against a side who want to get the ball back into play quickly you play the same tempo the way you counter that is by killing the game killing the game killing that momentum and if it means David Reier staying on a little bit longer than he should then so be it if I'm involved with Arsenal in any capacity as a player as a fan part of the staff the tea lady I'm I have no issue at all with what Arsenal is doing I also think that there's this huge overreaction to Arsenal's style of football because they're sitting top of the league.

25:11Frank Leboeuf:All of a sudden, it's spelled the death of Premier League football. I'm not sure where that comes from. We're just on the back end of the better part of a decade of Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp and the football that they brought that was winning titles. Nobody complained about them being boring. But they were fun too much. We've had one season of Arsenal doing this, and all of a sudden, oh, no, football is never going to be the same again. How do we reach here so far? Arsenal do what they need to do to bring their first title in over 20 years. So be it. My hope is that they evolve from there.

25:50Frank Leboeuf:But to somehow this mean, well, this is how football is going to be played from here on in for eternity, I just don't see that overreaction. I don't know how that narrative has become.

26:01Dan Thomas:Nadim, you can see why, unlike Xhaka, there is a concern that this could be a trend moving forward. We've seen it in more than one Premier League games, obviously, throughout the season, where it seems to be about set pieces and not conceding, where the entertainment level seems to have dropped.

26:17Alejandro Moreno:Yeah, there's interest in that. I don't necessarily believe in the entertainment level dropping overall, but I think the sort of focus on set pieces, it's like, I think it has become a thing. and I think in my opinion why it's become a thing is because in the last say couple of years like I don't know if Shaq would agree with this but most goalkeepers these days now are more or less redundant from corner kicks because a team is going to whip a ball into the six yard box and they're going to be upwards of 10 people in that space so goalkeepers advantage of being able to come and use their arms and catch the ball before you know there's no space for them to be able to come out and do that so some of the crosses and stuff that come into the box now it's more about percentages, just pure physicality, trying to get first contact, second contact, keep the ball back in the zones.

27:01Alejandro Moreno:I think I remember having played against a Sam Allardyce team when he was at Bolton, and it was about that. It was about percentages, and some might say it was ugly, but it was deeply effective. But now that the Premier League is in this position, it's not just, say, Arsenal do it. There are lots of teams that are doing it in that manner. The other day, I think it was Villa decided to try and counter Chelsea's corners by leaving four players up. Well not many managers and teams feel comfortable doing that so before you know it There's a there's a crowd scene just right in front of a goalkeeper and the Premier League itself for all the quality It has the individual quality the collective quality It's still becoming that team that time now where if you want to score goals Here's a long throw sling it into the box Here's a corner kick just put it into the space and I think when there's more creativity to it feels nicer But if it carries on in this manner in my opinion that becomes the sort of like the USP of the league itself and I think that's when it will become quite disappointing because I like to see in some ways and I'd never really say this I think I'd like to see goalkeepers probably like supported a bit more because then you'd probably see more creativity in how people try and approach their pieces instead of just bringing like a huge level of physicality to where all it is is putting a ball into an area and everybody just fight for it

28:13Frank Leboeuf:To that point I don't think there's any less ball, more or less bodies in the box now than there was when I was playing. Everybody pile into the box you'd leave one or two up at best and after that is everybody's a free-for-all I think the the difference is it's become more orchestrated in that you've now got these set-piece coaches and you have while you you still have 16 or 18 players in the box certainly the attacking players have a role to play in where they start exactly where they go so it's more it's more orchestrated than it was 20 or 30 years ago when I was playing and as a result it looks different but to that point again we we put in this on on Arsenal today which Chelsea did the same under Mourinho under Mourinho if you look at Chelsea when when they were winning titles look at how many of their goals came from set pieces and look at how orchestrated they were it wasn't at the hands of a set piece coach Mourinho just figured out this is what we need to do if the ball goes deep somebody's got to run across in front of the goalkeeper it's it's it's it's it's not different And I just feel that while, again, I am as critical of anybody about Arsenal and their over-reliance in set pieces and lack of otherwise attractive football or attacking football, what they're doing, sitting in terms of set pieces, is not new.

29:33Frank Leboeuf:It's just become the focus. Because it's, to the point I was making earlier, because it's so different from Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp, and dare I say, Arnaz Slott of last season. It's just so different from what we've come used to. from their perspective, no different from what Arsenal have been doing the last few seasons, where they finished second. This time now, they've just got in a little bit better, or everybody's gone a little bit worse. City are still the team that they were two seasons ago. Liverpool are not the team that they were last year. And as a result, they find themselves sitting top of the tree, as opposed to second.

30:08Dan Thomas:What do you think, Sir? Is it less fun?

30:11Shaka Hislop:Well, of course it's less fun if football is being played this way. And that's not necessarily about Arsenal, and it's about a general trend. I also think this is cyclical. Shaq's talking about how this happened with him, and there would be loads of players in the six-yard box. You think back about all the debates about Charles Hughes at the English Football Association, talking about areas of maximum opportunity, and how it was long ball, because he'd worked out that statistically most moves or most goals came from moves of only three passes. So why would you have 15 passes? Why would you open the pitch out?

30:40Shaka Hislop:Why would you be technical? No, just launch it into the box. And you go back and you think about the various teams that have done versions of this. Now, obviously, we're talking in very, very general terms here and lumping together teams that are not as stylistically similar as we would like to think. But broadly speaking, it's about clubs looking at it and thinking, well, where's the advantage? And if an advantage is you load a lot of people into the box, it's going to happen. Now, I think there is one other thing that may have changed this a little bit. And certainly, I think this is the case in Spain.

31:07Shaka Hislop:And I speak without a view of England quite so clearly. But I think what is true is, and I think in the VAR era, a little bit and you know far bit for me to go down that route of slagging off VAR. No I'm going to try not to, I'm trying to give an explanation, I'm going to try not to just moan about VAR but I do think we're in an era in which free kicks are won more easily. So in other words if you're getting more free kicks then there's more value in looking at the ways of putting the ball into the box. And of course what this does, it doesn't just change the way that you approach the corners, it changes the way that you approach trying to get corners.

31:42Shaka Hislop:and I'll give you the best possible example of this. I remember Jaren Cruyff and in a way it's a throwaway line but it contains a truth that I think is quite interesting. I remember once upon a time when Jaren Cruyff was coach of that great Barcelona team it was suggested to him but you don't defend well from corners and set pieces. You don't do this work well. You're talking about all this lovely football and stuff but you're really vulnerable from corners and free kicks and so on and even his own players said what do we do about this problem we've got from corners and Jaren Kroiv said don't commit any corners yep and I think what's happening is that if you're getting more corners if you're forcing corners and so maybe what's partly happening isn't so much that the corners themselves are different but we're seeing a greater volume of them or at least a greater search to force them in the first place.

32:26Dan Thomas:Naim just one last thing on this like a couple of years ago referees would add extra time could be 10-15 minutes of injury time everyone's like oh no this is too much and then it seems to have been constrained now but when you're trying to answer people who are complaining about time wasting with adding more time on people still

32:44Alejandro Moreno:complain so what's the answer yeah so basically dan what you've just described really well there is uh the everyday fun you know like ourselves we will always complain about everything there is no solution to all our problems dan like the time thing oh i need more time that's too little time and also you add in the context well how does this affect your team if your team is chasing the game you need more time. If your team's winning you need less time. And all of a sudden everything that came before and this idea of fairness it immediately goes in the bin. So I think some of the rule makers iFab and all this they can try and find ways to add time to add time to add time but it will still bring grumbles.

33:23Alejandro Moreno:Like a player walks off the pitch injured they've got to wait worth 30 seconds and you always see them on the edge of the pitch waving hands in the air why am I not back on the pitch yet? This is taking too long. Unfortunately it's just one of those areas of the game in my opinion which you can never get right. And, you know, for whatever they try to do, as soon as it affects you in a negative way, you'll say it's the worst rule ever.

33:42Dan Thomas:Can you fix it, Shaq? They're talking about a minute now, aren't they, for players coming off the pitch?

33:46Frank Leboeuf:In short, no. I've seen kind of some of the proposals. Stop the clock? You've got to stay up. Unless that's, I mean, that was floated probably five or six years ago where you play an hour's hard time. Every time the ball goes out to play, the clock stops. Every time somebody goes down, the clock stops. No, certainly nobody I am aware of involving the game thought that that was a good idea. They wanted to see continuous as we are traditionally with 90 minutes and the game play. I think all these other kind of proposals about how you manage this and players got to be off the field in a certain amount of time, all that just kind of, it will end up right back in the same place, having these same conversations.

34:27Frank Leboeuf:And Nadam is absolutely right. You cannot get this right. you cannot be fair to everyone because as Naden points out if your team is behind there's no amount of time that's the right amount if your team's in front you're going to complain if it's two minutes so you just have to do what's right what you feel is in the best interest of the game at large and not focus on again the kind of narrative and the noise that comes out immediately

34:53Dan Thomas:after each game a lot more what we saw in the premier league this week and beyond on the latest edition of the Gabin Jules podcast. That is available to listen to now. Be sure to check that out.

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38:07Dan Thomas:Right then, this was supposed to be Real Madrid against Celta Vigo with Real Madrid with a chance to go top of the table. That story, of course, got very much squashed on Monday when they lost at home against Getafe. Celta Vigo against Real Madrid, of course, live on ESPN Plus tomorrow. Sid Lowe is still with us. Sid, what's the fallout been like after that defeat at the Bernabeu? Because they were not good at all.

38:31Shaka Hislop:Well, I mean, the fallout really has focused on that, Dan. It hasn't just focused on the result. It's focused on this team are poor. This is a really bad football team. that don't play good football. Even when they've been winning this season, you can count the number of good performances on the fingers of one hand. In fact, you could probably count it on half the fingers of one hand. They haven't been good all year. They didn't really deserve anything more from Getafe. You could look at the statistics and say, well, there's a couple of chances. Maybe they could have got an equaliser. Maybe they could have won the game.

39:02Shaka Hislop:Maybe they could have done. But there's a broader question there, which is that they're not progressing, that they're not playing well, and that they didn't deserve very much. Now, there are lots of mitigating factors in this. the absentees of key players who are injured in all lines of the pitch. The absence in particular of Kylian Mbappé. But this isn't a very good football team.

39:18Dan Thomas:Has anyone asked Arbaloa what he does during the week?

39:24Shaka Hislop:Well, Daniel. Well, let me pick up on one thing. Let me pick up on one thing. And just to sort of speak to your slightly flippant way of putting the question. Arbaloa, after this game, said... he said that we keep sort of turning to the easy resort. We're taking the simple way out, which is to give the ball to Vinicius and get Vinicius to run at people. We need to learn to open the pitch out on the other side. We need to have more variety. Now, there's a couple of things here. The first one for me is that if there was one thing that I thought Real Madrid overdid on Monday night, I think there's actually a handful of things they overdid, it wasn't so much Vinicius running at Getafe.

40:02Shaka Hislop:It was them slinging largely aimless balls into the box. It wasn't just about Vinicius. That's number one. Number two, if you are going to say, as a manager, we can't just keep going to Vinicius, we've got to open the pitch out on the other side. Well, how about you put someone on the other side of the pitch? That would be a start. And the other thing is that Arboloh himself, who of course we know came in, in part, as a man that was designed to make the style players feel more comfortable, feel more wanted, feel happier. And that in particular meant Vinicius. and what were the things that Arboloha did?

40:36Shaka Hislop:Well fundamentally to talk Vinicius up to put an arm around Vinicius's shoulder and this isn't a criticism, these are the things that he wanted to do to try and get Vinicius happy again, smiling again feeling important again. The other thing he did was and I quote I have told my players to give the ball to Vinicius at every opportunity and here we are a month later saying why do you keep giving the ball to Vinicius at every opportunity?

41:00Dan Thomas:He should be a politician said obviously Celta Vigo tomorrow what happens if they lose tomorrow

41:12Shaka Hislop:um well I mean first of all it's not implausible that Celta Vigo came to the Benabelle and beat Real Madrid and didn't just beat Real Madrid but walked around Real Madrid they were absolutely brilliant and Real Madrid were very bad Real Madrid still have injuries I think it's nine players unavailable for tomorrow night's game what happens I think what happens is that Real Madrid look at this and think we've got a real real crisis on our hands I don't think anything happens immediately because of course you've only got what would it be three days until you play Manchester City I think what is certain now or very very close to being certain now is that Arbelor doesn't continue next season but in truth I don't think any of us thought that anyway I think we thought it would have taken something really extraordinary from him I think it basically takes them winning the Champions League for him to continue anyway you know this is a guy that came in because they needed someone.

41:58Shaka Hislop:And that's not necessarily designed to be a criticism of our below it. It's just designed to be an expression of reality. This is the guy you've got available. He comes in, he settles things, he makes things okay. You maybe win, you maybe don't win, but he makes things okay. I think what we've seen is that because it's so bad, I think now there's a position where, yeah, there might be a temptation to say, do we make another change? But the response to that question would be, what for? What do you gain by doing it now?

42:23Dan Thomas:Indeed. Take a look at the odds for the next manager. That's a discussion, of course, that will ramp up, I imagine, Sid. Jose Mourinho, second favourite. Jurgen Klopp, top. Oh, below a 6-1. Goodness me, the bookies are stealing money there.

42:38Shaka Hislop:Who is doing these odds? Because after everything that's just happened in the Benfica game, any slight chance of Jose Mourinho, my goodness. I mean, you know, it wasn't really a thing anyway. Although there are a few nostalgic people at Real Madrid who I think had Benfica played really, really well and knocked Real Madrid out and Mourinho had handled it the right way, which of course he was trying to do after the game that they did beat Real Madrid in the Champions League, the one that was during the league phase. You know, there was a bit of a sense of, well, maybe we can kind of fall back in love with this guy.

43:10Shaka Hislop:Some people never fell out of love with him, by the way. But it's just not going to happen now after everything that happened around this recent knockout tie between the two sides. No chance.

43:19Dan Thomas:It is then. Real Madrid against Celta Vigo. Friday night action in La Liga. And it's a game, of course, you can see live here on ESPN+. A must-win tie for them. 24 hours later, meanwhile, in the Basque Country, it's Athletic Club against Barcelona. All these games live on Plus. Now, Gareth Bale's kind of served up some interesting quotes about his time at Real Madrid. He says, a lot of players go to Real Madrid and it's like the glitz and the glamour. And I never was like that. I just wanted to go there, play football and go home. I never would want to go to interviews all the time. I'd have to sometimes.

43:53Dan Thomas:I just never wanted the kind of circus that goes with it. I just wanted to play football and go home and be with my family. Sid, it's interesting amongst the answer, he cites the fact that he left a game early and it was he who was on the front page of Marker as opposed to other players who did exactly the same thing, feeling that he was picked on by the media.

44:15Shaka Hislop:yeah uh and obviously look the starting point of what he says there is it's entirely true by the way you see it in his behavior you see when behavior is quite a loaded word that's probably i actually think i don't quite like using the word behavior but you saw it in the way that he he acted in the time that he was in spain he wasn't interested in that he wasn't interested in the nonsense it's just not in his personality and he was perfectly entitled by the way to have that personality i've always thought it was remarkable really that essentially the the things that they attacked Gareth Bale for and you thought wow these are these are just the most minor crimes on the planet people would say oh isn't it terrible he plays golf oh my god he plays golf what a terrible thing to do and and then there was that one where the team went out for a the team went out for a meal and and he didn't go and everyone said this is terrible now look for what it's worth I personally think it probably helps you to go for a meal with your teammates it probably helps you to engage with them and so on but essentially he was being accused of not being a bad lad, of not going out, of being a guy that wanted to stay at home and look after himself.

45:16Shaka Hislop:I mean, if these really are the worst crimes you can come up with, I mean, it's really, really terrible. And he did, I think, at times, possibly need to play the game a little bit more. In fact, remember, what was it, a couple of years ago when he was asked on the television if he had any advice for Jude Bellingham? And he said, play the game. You know, there are bits of the media that maybe we'll want to speak to you. You need to play the game. You need to be able to kind of be part of that environment. And I thought that he said that from a position of regret. I thought he said that from a position in which he'd realised that he hadn't played the game and it should have been enough for him to just play football, but it wasn't.

45:53Shaka Hislop:Now, it is true, because I don't want this to be a whitewashing of Gareth Bale. It is true that in the last couple of years, his performance level wasn't that good. It is true that there was a period, particularly after Real Madrid had reneged on an agreement to let him go to China, where he'd had enough, where he wasn't interested, where he was angry, in fact, at the way that he felt that Real Madrid as a club had behaved and in the way in which then the media reflected that. And I think that's where he sees himself as having been picked on a little bit. And that moment when he left the game early, when he should have been sitting in the stands and watching it, everyone waded in on him.

46:25Shaka Hislop:And again, you sort of think, wow, is that really the worst crime you can come up with, that he left the game early to avoid a bit of traffic? And I think he had a point, but it is true that in truth and and it it kind of saddens me a little bit to say it like this that he was probably at Real Madrid for 18 months too long um but you know when we take a step back and we look

46:43Dan Thomas:at his career here he was phenomenally successful when you think glitz and glamour you think Nadam

46:49Alejandro Moreno:what do you make of this Nadam I'm glad you came to me Dan let me tell you about my time going to to be honest i'm i'm glad that sid's been talking about say the highs and the lows of his time at real madrid some of the stuff that's really unfair and other things which you know like maybe he did stay there for too long seeing him just essentially be a sub you know in some of those later rounds of the champions league and so on that's not really the guy who we remember having so many key moments in the more recent history of you know what is essentially the biggest club in world football and where I would sort of say that like it doesn't necessarily sit right in my mind like no player has to go anywhere and I think when you think about Real Madrid it's not just the football it is what it is to be in Madrid it's that white shirt it's what it stands for it's the unique nature the history of it all and I think that in some ways if you are to be going there that's the type of thing that you need to be ready to embrace because I think in some ways to be an introvert, it's not really the best place to go to be at Real Madrid, to be completely honest with you.

47:56Alejandro Moreno:But that being said, as Sid said, he's one of the most successful players that's been there in that time. Some of the moments that he's had, the memories that he will have, his significance to, say, football there as a Welshman as well. It's tremendous, but to be stunned by what goes on at Real Madrid in terms of the scale and the magnitude of it all and the glitz, the glamour, the bright lights, I don't know, man, it almost feels a little bit naive to be honest but who am I who am I to say that you know he made the wrong decision because clearly he's had a tremendous career I'm with Nadam in that you kind of you

48:29Frank Leboeuf:would think to expect that to know to expect that from from Real Madrid I mean we talk about it all the time not just in terms of players in terms of managers the politics of the football club is like no other and I think that that comes with it um listen at the same time while I say that from a footballing perspective when you're involved in the game you think that the only thing that matters is what happens on the park and you turn up for training on time you train hard during the week and you put in those performances on the weekend that should be all that that counts Gareth Bale did that but Real Madrid are unique probably no other club comes anywhere close to being to matching Real Madrid in in those off-field expectations what's what's needed to be done in terms of just continuing to promote the brand.

49:18Frank Leboeuf:So naive is the word Naram used which I think perfectly encapsulates this.

49:24Shaka Hislop:Final words on you

49:25Dan Thomas:about this, Sid?

49:28Shaka Hislop:Yeah, just to pick up on what Shaq is saying there and I think we do need to be honest about those last couple of years and that is that Gareth Bale didn't perform particularly brilliantly on the pitch and that there were reasons why, whether whether Zidane was right or not, Zidane didn't want him in the team. And so it wasn't just about the noise around him. It wasn't just about the things that were being said about him. It was about his contribution on the pitch. But Gareth, I think, felt that some of that was very unfair. The year that he scored that incredible overhead kick in the final of the Champions League, in around about springtime, he dropped out of the team.

50:02Shaka Hislop:I think I remember it being against PSG on Valentine's Day. And he dropped out of the team and he didn't get in. And in March, April time, he genuinely couldn't understand it. It wasn't that he thought, you know, this is deeply unfair. He actually couldn't understand it. Well, why aren't I being given at least some opportunities? And Zidane had decided against it. And actually the best of those three Zidane seasons, when they won three Champions Leagues, was possibly the one that they were missing Bale for injury in the middle one. And Isco started playing and started playing brilliantly. So I think we, you know, I think Bale has been phenomenal at Real Madrid.

50:34Shaka Hislop:But it is true that those last two years, the on-the-pitch part of it as well, wasn't quite there.

50:39Dan Thomas:You said Zidane never did tactics. Little chat 10 minutes before. Bish bash bosh. There you go. Easy game, this management. Thank you very much. Just a reminder, Sid and Aidan back for extra time. We'll be answering your questions. Be sure to check that out over on YouTube.

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52:24Dan Thomas:Are they in Shaq's power rankings? No, they're not. We're laughing at. Slight recency bias, Shaq, real associate. Okay. What have they done?

52:33Frank Leboeuf:No, there could be no arguing. I'll get to Real Madrid, so I don't know how I get in with the top four. Sporting continue their good run, getting the better of Portugal in the cup and in the league. Bodo Glimt, who got the better of Inter and then their league season started, so they're back in. There is story. Galatasaray, City drop six. Galatasaray? What are they doing there? They're topping Turkey. They were terrible. You have a second leg against Juventus, they were so lucky. City drops that you can't be drawing at home to Nottingham Forest. And then the two Copa del Rey finalists, Atletico Madrid, Real Sociedad, Dan, have lost one game since mid-December.

53:14Frank Leboeuf:Right, okay. To Real Madrid. Right. They deserve to be there.

53:17Dan Thomas:They deserve to be there. And they're through to a final. What about Atletico Madrid being there? They've been all over the show. They're through to another final as well. Just because they made it through to the final. That's right. Despite losing the second leg 3-0. Yeah, but they won the first leg 4-0. Okay. So you've got to take everything off the package. I struggled against Rio Alveedo for crying out loud. Daniel? Yes? Trust the process. Alright, okay. Naidan, would you like to add anything to this nonsense?

53:41Alejandro Moreno:I agree with you that it is mostly nonsense. So, Shaka, you've got to be very careful. If people don't believe these rankings are justified, this is the AI era, Shaka. And very quickly, your PAL rankings will go in the bin. So please, do not put Galatasaray in this list for whatever reason. Get them out, justify them, and just be good. please please i find that i find that difficult to counter final thing and i saw this and i'd

54:07Dan Thomas:never seen this before and i loved it i'm not sure have you seen this shot oliver khan did this 25 years ago yes i saw oliver khan and he was social media i didn't realize i couldn't use my house

54:18Frank Leboeuf:Look, look, look, there's no messing around. He didn't even try to hit it. Like a knife and claws. He's a full-on punch. Extended arms. Oh, boy. I love the fact... I thought he could wear that. No problem. I'll do a Gareth Bale and go, Merley. Yes. That's what we were saying there.

54:38Dan Thomas:What a lovely segue. What a lovely way to tie a bow on this show. Thank you very much to Shaka and to Nadim. Sid back with us if we like it or not for our Extra Time, where we'll be answering some of your questions. A lot of criticism about Manchester City, Nadam. What a surprise. Stay with us.

54:58Dan Thomas:Welcome into the latest edition of Extra Time. Shaka Hislop is with us in the studio. Nadam joins us as well. Sid Lowe also with us. Sid took his kid to see Real Vieta. What did he do wrong? Joel services. What did he do wrong? 3-0 was it last night? Sid for Charlie. Poor kid.

55:18Shaka Hislop:Yes, it was. He loves it. He doesn't love it.

55:24Frank Leboeuf:Sid tried to convince himself.

55:29Dan Thomas:Nathan, you haven't been on for a while. I was like, is Nathan avoiding us? What's he been up to?

55:34Frank Leboeuf:And then all of a sudden... He's been to Norway.

55:36Dan Thomas:Really? Apparently, Nathan was in Norway practicing some Winter Olympics. Here he is.

55:50Dan Thomas:Oh boy. Nader, how did you find it?

55:55Alejandro Moreno:Listen, it was a lot of fun, but I don't think Nigeria will be having a curling team at this level any time soon. Let's just say that. But it was good to try something different. Mate, this looks really scary.

56:06Dan Thomas:That is scary on that toboggan.

56:08Alejandro Moreno:That must have hurt. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Yeah, listen, Dan, all these falls that you see in these videos are the best ones because there's a ton of stuff which we couldn't post. Because if we did post it, there's a very, very good chance I won't be allowed on any more trips like that again. These were some scary times, Dan, as you said. Yeah, that looks genuinely scary.

56:28Dan Thomas:Almost as scary as watching Oviedo. Naidem, considering what City went through last season, if they win a trophy and finish top two in the Premier League, should fans be happy?

56:44Alejandro Moreno:Should fans be happy? I think if any year you win something, yes, there's some level of happiness, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not been a great season from City. They've not really touched the summit for as long as, say, we'd seen in years gone by, but it does feel like a better step. But the problem is, so much talk about Guardiola leaving in the summer, so would you be happy if you didn't know what the future looked like? so there's a bit of a caveat to the happiness but it's a step in the right direction i guess but yeah what was the answer i don't know i don't know you finish up you finish off with an i don't know

57:20Dan Thomas:there which i think is about right i don't know something about being unhappy i don't know oh well what's this sid sid dan recently revealed that if you could go back in one point in time would either be 1999 his first year at uni or in madrid in 2005. could you describe perception of dan's lifestyle at that time in madrid and what trouble he would get up to i don't think we need to do that sid no we don't i don't really know why that question is added we've had a major operation

57:48Frank Leboeuf:we've had a major operation

57:57Shaka Hislop:I just want to check that you still have my bank details, Daniel, before I give this answer. You can do the transfer any time you like. I will say one thing to our listeners at home. Dan Thomas and his white shorts.

58:14Dan Thomas:Yep, they went great. They went everywhere with me.

58:17Frank Leboeuf:I don't want to know any more about that.

58:19Dan Thomas:Has there ever been a more night and day team at the bottom of the league, such as Wolves, in a season? Of course, beat Villa and then they beat Liverpool, Nadeem.

58:29Alejandro Moreno:Yeah, do you know what? In some ways, when they were really, really struggling and they were set to be the worst team points-wise in the history of the Premier League, for me, it didn't necessarily feel right because that Derby team was the worst team in the history of the Premier League when they got those 11 points and I thought Wolves were better. so the fact that say a new manager came in got a ton of criticism for it and the team never really got better well now you're starting to see that you know did you still have some fight obviously they're relegated i think that speaks for itself but for the fans that turn up every single week to watch them like you know because that's their compulsion they've seen a bunch of players who have sort of given them hope for the next season and it's not to say that they'll definitely bounce back come next year because things will change but you know you're going to keep going to the very very end and this Wolves team is showing that and it's probably sort of summed up in the fact that the recent results which they've had, there have been a lot of late goals and I think that sort of drive, that desire and sort of will to find something isn't what most people would expect from a team, you know, that was basically relegated two, three months ago.

59:31Dan Thomas:Sid, do you ever see a scenario where a European league moves away from the running clock and stoppage time and instead uses a clock that stops for stoppages like fouls, throw-ins, etc to help prevent time wasting?

59:45Shaka Hislop:Yeah, I think this is an idea that will be floated. I think it's an idea that people will return to. And in fact, it's an idea that, you know, talking about the stuff we've been talking about today and the time ball in play statistics. And you look at people on social media keep coming back to this. Well, why don't we play 60 minutes and that's it? I personally think there's one really, really big problem with this. And it's a very basic one, which is that I don't think it's just about the quantity of the minutes. I think it's about the quality of the minutes. and I think the risk from my point of view is if you were to have a stopping clock you would effectively institutionalise the time wasting or institutionalise the taking of a long time to do things so there would be no attempt whatsoever to hurry things along so the game would get longer and longer without there actually being any more quality to football it would get worse because what would happen is instead of a referee thinking that player's been sitting there pretending he's injured for four minutes I'm going to get him up the referee goes well that's alright you sit there I'm just going to add it on Yeah, it's like a school.

1:00:39Shaka Hislop:And that doesn't help anyone. You might still get your 60 minutes, but it doesn't help the game at all. It makes it even worse.

1:00:45Dan Thomas:Did you say that's like school? Yeah, exactly. That's what you did at school? You're wasting my time. It's your time you're wasting, not mine. That's what they say, wouldn't it? I can stay as long as you want. That does an awful lot. Carry on. Naidem, Sid's made a good point, hasn't he?

1:01:00Alejandro Moreno:Yeah, Sid made a really, really good point at the end of it, because I was going to come in to sort of say that, like, if people are going to stop the clock until the game restarts, it will not limit time wasting, it will just be the time that's being wasted is now your time as a fan. Like a game could kick off at 3 and it might finish at 6, it might finish at 7, just depends how other players are feeling at any particular moment. And that quality in itself there, that is nightmare fuel. So I think again, it's one of those things that we said earlier in the show, you can try and find ways to manage time and give people what they think that they want, but it's very very difficult to do and that's why these rules and stuff haven't really changed that much across all the decades.

1:01:38Dan Thomas:Sid, what is one component of Oviedo's game that you change that could save them from relegation? Win more games.

1:01:46Shaka Hislop:Did you say one?

1:01:48Dan Thomas:Did you say one component? Apparently, Sid, yes. Oh, poor Sid. Oh, dearie me.

1:01:55Shaka Hislop:Okay, that's all right, don't worry. Do you know what I do? No, go on. Okay, I'll wait. No, I was just going to say I'd take 15 years off Santi Cazorla.

1:02:02Dan Thomas:Oh good old Sainte, there you are. Have you got his phone number, Sid? Do you message him sometimes just after a couple of beers?

1:02:15Shaka Hislop:I never message him after a couple of beers, Daniel.

1:02:18Dan Thomas:We've all been there. No we haven't! No we haven't! We really haven't, no. We haven't, yeah.

1:02:28Shaka Hislop:I don't think I've ever got drunk and told a footballer I love him, ever. Oh, man.

1:02:34Dan Thomas:It's why Del Piero doesn't work here anymore. Right, what is it, especially looking forward to, eating this summer in the States during the World Cup?

1:02:46Shaka Hislop:Well, I actually, right, I probably shouldn't say this because there's probably some sort of rule against free advertising, so I won't name the restaurant. You can name it. But I found an absolutely brilliant Argentinian restaurant down in the village in New York, and I'm very much looking forward to going back.

1:03:02Dan Thomas:Oh, nice, Sid. Very good. Does it beat the Argentinian restaurants that we used to frequent?

1:03:08Shaka Hislop:Oh, no. That one, unfortunately, isn't there anymore. But that was spectacular. Dan Dwight's shorts were not there anymore. They decided we can't stay open.

1:03:20Dan Thomas:There and Larry's, all gone. Right, Radcom 1-5, best striker signings in the Premier League, Shaq. Okay. Jao Pedro, Ekotike, Izzak, Giocares, Valtimada.

1:03:32Frank Leboeuf:Well, I'll... Izzak has got to be fifth because he's been injured for so long. Okay. So... And then fourth... Right now, Valtimada because he can't get a game. Okay. Third, Giocares. Mm-hmm. Second, I will go Ekitike. No, second, Jao Pedro, top Ekitike. Naden?

1:04:03Alejandro Moreno:Yeah, I think Izak has to be fifth, not played enough football. Volta Mara coming in at four after a strong start seems to have faded away quite a bit. And if it was recently biased, the hardest of all of them is going to be Jao Pedro, who had put a one. but but Xhocarez is potentially in position to be the only one that lifts a league title come the end of the season so I think I'm going to put him at one, I'll put Xhocarez at two and Eke TK at three.

1:04:31Dan Thomas:I suppose the argument to that is wouldn't have asked someone at all anyway without Xhocarez

1:04:37Alejandro Moreno:Well we'll never know Dan will we? We'll never know because for the years gone by it's not worked that far is it? So yeah, he's going to put him at one for now.

1:04:45Dan Thomas:Final question why is there so much negativity about Arsenal? They are doing what they can possibly do to win the Premier League title.

1:04:55Alejandro Moreno:It's because, if we're going to be completely honest, I'm going to sort of reveal myself here in some ways. I think a lot of people enjoy just making jokes about Arsenal at this time of the season. And the fact that this year they might not be able to do that is probably affecting a lot of people. You know, it's been over 20 years since they won a league title. So as a consequence, like, you know, what's the next best thing to do? Just complain about the set pieces, complain about style of play. Get still to the team that I believe has scored the most goals and conceded the fewest. So they're very deserving of being in that position.

1:05:25Alejandro Moreno:I think some people aren't necessarily that fond of Arteta, they're not really fond of say the way that set pieces look, but like I say if you have an issue find a way to beat them and unfortunately for everybody else not many people are able to do that at this moment in time so instead we grumble. That's the way that it works but they're very deserving of their position and you know if they go on to win the league title then more parts of them it's been a

1:05:47Dan Thomas:long time coming and that's it that brings us to the end of today's show sid are you going to vigo tomorrow for us or friday can't be bothered no i'm not going to vigo tomorrow because i'm going to bilbao on saturday for the barcelona game shak you're in studio tomorrow are you no oh no no oh you're off tomorrow yep oh there you are steven ali will be here of course for not only Real Madrid against Celta Vigo Liverpool playing Wolves as well in the FA Cup those games live on ESPN Plus nice and corporate to end things thank you very much we'll be back tomorrow be sure to join oh boy

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