The Football Reporters: Carrick in at Man Utd? Frank out at Spurs?

24:09If they don't win those two games, it's very difficult to see how he survives. Just on that, though, then, you mentioned about Spurs, the squad. What evidence is that there's going to be a noticeable uptick in performances and results if they do get rid of Thomas Frank? Because I obviously don't want to go back to United again and again and again, but they sacked Senhag and bring Amram in. There's no kind of uptick in results. They've done the same with Amory and Broughton Fletcher. It's pretty much the same. All the evidence suggests that even if you do get rid of Frank, that you could bring anyone in to manage that group and absolutely you wouldn't notice much of an improvement in results, performances, anything like that.

24:50And that is the best argument that's keeping him in job at the moment. It really is. Because there's a situation, obviously, there's a lot of change at that club above the head coach position. it looks as though Fabio Paratici is going to be leaving he's probably going to go to Fiorentina at the end of the transfer window that has really kind of messed up the model that they were starting to create they you know Vinay Van Ketchen would come in he's the CEO obviously Daniel Levy had left several members of the Lewis family have taken on more of an active role in decision making at board level and they put in these two co-supporting directors Johan Lange and Fabio Paratici and now Paratici's going and it again creates this slight sort of unease and uncertainty about well who okay so who is bringing in the players who you know who can we trust to spend the money to change that recruitment that you mentioned you know the failed recruitment of so many windows and and they know there's a there's a very honest assessment internally of that Spurs squad from what I understand they know it's nowhere near good enough they know they need to ship out quite a lot of players and they need to spend significant money on that squad.

25:56And it's often said that, oh, they've got loads of room with PSR. They haven't made a profit since, I think it's 2019. So there's not oceans of cash there. And they do need a manager who's going to be able to deliver some form of European football so they can maximise the revenue that they get from that fantastic stadium. So Frank is under pressure to get those short-term results. But at the same time, there's that sort of ever-changing picture above him of who has the power and you know and who has the influence and and a real desire I think to not throw out a guy who is a genuinely good man as Thomas Frank is but if the fans continue to protest and continue to voice their opposition to what he's doing and the team and create this kind of environment to such an extent then I just don't see how they can do anything other than say, all right, we've got to give someone else a go.

26:50But you're right, Rob. There's no guarantee. There's no one out there. I don't think that same fan base would rally behind a single candidate. It's not as if there's someone out of work. I bet you a lot of them would want Pochettino back. And it's something that they may look at in the summer if he leaves the USMNT after the World Cup. Maybe that's not an option for them. But again, we're talking about, we've just spent 15 minutes criticising Man United for going back to the past. Well, this is where Spurs are thinking. But it all goes back to those sort of halcyon days of the Pochettino era of here we are, this is it.

27:22We are now finally taking that final step to being one of the big clubs in Europe. Not necessarily going to win everything every year, but we're challenging. We're there. And they've taken three or four, five steps back from that. And so you can see why they're looking at Pochettino and thinking, well, he was the guy that got us there. Maybe he's the guy that can get us back. Well, the bad news for Thomas Frank is that Ryan Mason's available again after leaving his job at West Brom last week. So there is an interim there that could be ready to take over. But you mentioned the West Ham and the Burnley games previously, but if they don't beat West Ham, can he actually survive for the Burnley game?

27:53I mean, how big is the West Ham game now? It's massive. It's the biggest game of their season. I think if they lose it, it's... Well, I do want to caveat it with because they've got Burnley next and because there is a... after West Ham, and because there is a real concerted desire among the hierarchy to not lose him yet. They don't want to... It's not as if the relationship's broken down. We're not looking at a Chelsea or a Man United situation here where the head coach is frustrated with things that are going on. They're all aligned internally. And he said that publicly, and that is true. I believe that to be true.

28:30They all know there's a big job to be done. But he doesn't really have the mandate or the backing to do it if they're losing everywhere. I think it's three wins in 14 games now across all competitions. so it's huge it's huge if they don't beat where I think if they don't get four points from West Ham and Burnley then I think he's gone but just to jump in there in between they play Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League if they win that game they could pretty much secure top eight of the Champions League which would take them beyond the playoff round would that buy him some time if they can beat Dortmund and get into the Champions League the round of 16 I'm not quite sure what the numbers are but would that buy him the time that look we've got a guy that's getting into the knockout stage of the Champions League game not just the knockout stage, but the actual top eight.

29:14So would that balance it out, or is it all about domestic results now? I don't think it would be enough to silence the fan dissent towards him. I think it would be, it potentially could be enough. Look, I mean, it would be something that Vinay and the owners could say, well, look, he's achieved something. This is something tangible. this is Spurs eating at the top table into the into the 2026 all right and you know and the rest can follow but you know we've sort of seen already from last season well you know if things are going well in Europe but domestically your house is on fire it's not going to save you so I yeah I just I think it's all about West Ham and Burnley I think the Dortmund look he can only lose really with the Dortmund situation if he wins it people kind of shrug their shoulders a little bit and say okay, great.

30:05You know, no one in that stadium, no one connected to Tottenham, nobody thinks they're going to win the Champions League. So all you're doing really is just kind of, okay, great, we're going to have a couple more big games and we're going to get knocked out by a big team. Brilliant. You know, it's not enough to kind of, when you put that into the bigger negative picture, it's not enough to save him though. Well, let's move on to the two big giant killings in the FA Cup third round. First, Macclesfield beating holders Crystal Palace mark. Do you think it's the greatest ever cup shock we've ever seen?

30:36Have you seen anything like that before? No, that is the one, isn't it? I mean, 117 places between the two clubs. It was the holders. They were sixth tier. I mean, we're talking about guys that, well, I think one of the defenders going back to work on Monday is the school teacher. The guy who scored the goal works for a company that sells scented candles. I mean, this is like, this is real kind of FA Cup romance stuff. I think it is definitely the biggest shock. And I think, you know, the Macclesfield story is really interesting. So we know that the club, the Macclesfield town folded about five or six years ago, was reborn.

31:06And basically the owner bought it off a website called Rightmove for our non-UK subscribers. That is a site that sells houses. And he bought the club off rightmove.co.uk. So that shows the kind of the weird background to it. And I think we have to kind of mention Robbie Savage as well. Now, Robbie's obviously now the manager at Forest Green, but Robbie was a part owner of Macclesfield. And I know for a fact that he basically spent 24-7 down there, coaching the kids, doing community events, getting the time behind the club again. Because the club had kind of died a little bit when it went out of business.

31:37They were getting small crowds, but now they're getting big crowds. And a lot of that is down to Robbie being a bit like the Class of 92 at Salford. He really kind of embraced it. And obviously, I think he won three promotions in three or four years, and he's now moved on to Forest Green on the back of it, sold his stake in the club. But I do think that we have to give credit to Robbie Savage for the work he put in. But what happened at the weekend was just incredible. Wayne Rooney's brother in charge, that adds a bit more romance to it. the fact that a famous sibling has been involved as well.

32:04So just an amazing scoreline. I think the funny thing for me was the FA were kind of talking last week about this new innovation. They've got the so-called the winner's ball. So the FA Cup holders would play with a special ball in each of their ties. Only they could play with it. They had special gold flashes on the ball, so it just signified that they're the FA Cup holders. It lasted 90 minutes. I mean, there'd be a big stock of these balls somewhere at Wembley, I guess, that are never going to be used. So, yeah, that adds a little bit of spice to the FA Cup weekend. But I mean, it's fit to you guys at Wrexham.

32:32Wrexham kicked it all off. They beat Nottingham Forest. The first time they faced a Premier League side since the whole Rob and Ryan thing began in 2021. So was that a sign of things to come, Wrexham beating Premier League teams? Well, I mean, it's one of those where it's a sort of result that will make them believe that the Premier League dream is real, right? I mean, they've been mocked for it ever since they took over the club, that their aspirations were Premier League based. and yet here they are now beating a Premier League team. And look, I mean, I didn't see all of the game from what I've seen of it.

33:06I think they did it. They deserved it. It's not as if they fluked it. And what they're doing at that club is they're steadily building. You know, they've not aimed for the stars, fine, but they've built according to the league that they're in. And you feel as though now that they're beating a team like Nottingham Forest, that they're getting ever closer to realising that they're getting to a Premier League level. What it will do for their self-belief is immeasurable. It is quite a nice contrast, isn't it, between Wrexham and Matt? Because obviously Wrexham have got their celebrity backing and the investment has allowed them to race up the leagues and get to within touching distance of the Premier League.

33:43Macclesfield haven't had any of that. And I think on days like this, it's often that the tagline is these fans really deserve these big days out. And when a lower league team has that kind of day, definitely every set of fans deserves that kind of thing. I think more so than anyone though, Macclesfield deserved theirs. I mean, I used to cover a lot of Macclesfield games when I was working at the local paper in Manchester. We used to cover Macclesfield quite a lot. And in 2000, around 2010, they had a manager die, Keith Alexander. Then a few months later, they had a midfielder die, Richard Butcher, who died suddenly overnight.

34:16There was obviously that incident with a player, Ethan McLeod, recently, who was travelling back from a game and died in a car crash. You know, there is a club, really, that's been shaped by an awful lot of tragedy over the last few years. throw into that, that they were liquidated in, I think, 2020. There was a lot of fuss. I mean, Mark will know. There was a lot of fuss in the national media when Bury, a famous football league club, went bankrupt and this kind of outcry that this had been allowed to happen. In comparison to that, Macclesfield were really allowed to kind of drift away without anyone really bothering with them.

34:47I mean, they were a football league club twice. They were as high as League One at one point and they were kind of allowed to drift out of the football league without as much as a whimper, really, which was really, really sad to see. It's been an issue with a lot of clubs around the North West with Rochdale, Oldham, Stockport occasionally. Beria still kind of battling their way back towards the Football League. So if anyone, any group of fans deserves that day on Saturday, it was the Macclesfield fans. And that's not to take anything away from the Wrexham fans. I just think it's quite interesting that both of these teams on the same weekend have had these massive days, but obviously have got to that point by very, very different means.

35:21And you've got Macclesfield, who obviously got aspirations of getting back in the Football League. Right now, Wrexham, with results like that against Forest, will be looking towards the Premier League and thinking that is definitely achievable in the next two, three, four years, possibly. Just to add to what Rob was saying, Macclesfield also lost Winnie Maiele from the women's team just before Christmas. So she died of cancer, which the tragedy around that club is incredible. It was in the same week that Ethan McLeod died. And I saw John Rooney talking about Ethan died in a car crash and the team bus on the way back from again was actually caught in the traffic of the accident and they didn't realise what had happened until the following morning.

35:55And that was only a month ago, or less than a month ago. So that kind of tragedy, which is, you know, what we saw last summer with Diogo Ojo, it really can have an effect on the team. So, you know, Macclesfield deserve every kind of bit of glory they get and every kind of financial reward they get for this because it is a real family club. And I think, you know, just going back to the more positive end of it, I think the FA Cup this weekend has shown that no matter what the level is, a club can achieve a result. And Rob's talking about the past. I remember 98, 99, Macclesfield were in the same division as Man City.

36:26You know, they played Man City in league games, that's because City have been dropped down to third tier. And City, as we know, have gone on to all sorts of incredible things since the Champions of Europe, you know, regular Premier League winners managed by Pep Guardiola, Macclesfield have gone the other way. But it just shows you that on any given day, a team can, at Macclesfield level, the sixth tier, can beat a Premier League team, not just a Premier League team, but the FA Cup holders. For me, that just tied a real bow on the FA Cup this weekend that, you know, Macclesfield is such an incredible story.

36:51Let's hope that they get, you know, we're talking on Monday before the draw is made on Monday evening, But by the time we come out on Tuesday, let's hope they've got a fantastic draw and they're going to have another great day out. Well, it's time for a break. When we come back, we'll be talking about managers and sporting directors and that complicated relationship. Do you know what the scariest sound to hear on the factory floor is? Silence. That means something somewhere broke. Production has stopped and now you're paying workers to wait while the team troubleshoots and fixes the problem. Finally, there's a proactive way to reduce equipment downtime thanks to MaintainX.

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37:52Well, next we're going to be talking about head coaches versus managers, their relationships with sporting directors, the structures that are within clubs. Obviously, this has been thrown up by what happened to Ruben Amarim at Manchester United, the disagreements that he had with the director of football, Jason Wilcox, his demand to be called a manager rather than a head coach, even though that's how he was appointed. James, you've been writing about this. Just on the head coach versus managers kind of debate, what are the kind of key points around those two titles why are they different and why is it so important that that clubs kind of lay out exactly what they want from the guy in charge of the team I think what we've seen in the Premier League is is a shift away over the last sort of 10 or 15 years really with Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger leaving their positions a shift away from the manager is the sort of be all and end all of a club he's the final decision maker everything feeds into him and you know that's why his head is on the chopping block if things go wrong to a more kind of continental model where um you know a head coach is supported by various department heads um and you know europe i think was ahead of the premier league on this um i'm arsenal's the example i always sort of go to with this without with arson wenger just because i sort of covered it so closely that i've said this on the pod before it was the level of control he had was to such an extent that if someone at the training ground wanted to buy an iphone it was signed off by arson wenger that was the level of control that he had at one stage um and it obviously shifted away from that towards nine department heads they appointed with recruitment and medical and scouting all these kind of different positions and they made a real sort of point about talking about how they'd expanded their operations staff and made all these appointments and then obviously it didn't really work out for uni emery in that system and long story short michael arteta comes in and he is i think a unique case in that he was appointed as a head coach and he was effectively promoted as a manager and that happened after he won the fa cup in 2020 and i i talked to him about this for the piece and it's quite interesting actually he revealed for the first time that that conversation about the promotion was actually held before the FA Cup final and the club went to him and sort of said look you know we're thinking about giving you more responsibility how do you think it might work and he pitched in return to them well if I'm the manager this is what I can do this is what I can't do this is what I'd change and this is my sort of blueprint for the club and they agreed to it and obviously they're now on the brink of winning their first title in 22 years.

40:39And even if they don't, they've had a tremendous sort of transformation in Arteta's six years there. So I think he's a really interesting case because he's become the manager that a lot of the head coaches sort of point to, to sort of say, well, look, A, he's been given time, and B, look at the responsibility he had. And Rob, you sort of mentioned, obviously, Amirim in the intro. We'll never know, probably, whether Ruben Amirim saw what Enzo Mareska did at Chelsea and thought, no, that's the way to get out. That's the way to kind of sort of say, all right, if I've got issues with the limitations of my head coach position, then this is how I, you know, if I can't change it internally, then I'll go external and that'll be that.

41:19But I just wonder whether these managers are harking for back to a day that doesn't really exist anymore. Part of the piece I've been researching, there's five clubs that actually have the role of manager in the Premier League and they're Arsenal, Everton, Manchester City, Crystal Palace and Leeds. Interestingly, not Newcastle. And I think anybody who knows how Newcastle is run, Eddie Howe is very much a manager. He's very much hands-on. And what it comes down to really is it's a semantic argument, I suppose, in one sense. But it's just about the level of influence, the level of control you have.

41:53And broadly speaking, as a head coach, you have less than you do as a manager. I'm surprised you didn't mention Unai Emery in that because we all think that Unai Emery is obviously, he is in control of Aston Villa but I think that English football is still really struggling with this I think you're right it has evolved over the last 10-12 years and we've gone from a situation where they were none to to where they kind of proliferate now and I just think that I think it's gone too far out of the way in the sense that the managers or the coaches whatever you want to call them have lost a lot of their the power that the important power that they had to kind of basically to choose the players because you've got a lot of head coaches coming in and working with players that they might not choose so how can they ever be successful if they work with a group of players that doesn't actually fit their means we know that head coaches will always say the sporting director or the head director of football needs to bring this player in but ultimately who decides on the players and you keep hearing clubs kind of you know kind of say well you know the manager's final say off or the manager's part of the conversation unless the manager can say i need that player for my team or i don't need that player for my team then it's going to be a struggle isn't it and then you know these head coaches managers have had their responsibility diluted but they're still the person that every week has to face the media.

42:58I think Thomas Frank made the point last week, didn't he, about saying that, you know, where I've worked in the past, that the sporting director will speak as regularly as I do in terms of addressing the media. I think Jurgen Klopp, when he started at Liverpool, was stunned at how many questions he was asked about contracts, about transfer targets. When he was at Dortmund, that was always the role of the sporting director. And even now, we'll see every summer, sporting directors of German clubs will always be talking about players or targets when we hear nothing from Jason Wilcox. were here. Nothing from Berta at Arsenal, Richard Hughes at Liverpool.

43:28These guys are basically the most important people in football now. We never hear from them. They've assumed this role of power without any kind of responsibility. I remember asking Antonio Conte about that when he was at Tottenham and he sort of said, basically saying to him, look, you're the one that's got to come out here. You clearly want experienced players, 28, 29, 30. You can come in, do a job now. Tottenham's broad model is sign young, develop and And ultimately, either they deliver here or we sell them on for a huge, huge profit. They're two sort of violently opposed ideas. But yet you have to come out here every week and kind of explain what the club are doing, which you don't really agree with.

44:09But the club never explained it themselves. And he sort of said, well, look, you know, where I've worked in Italy, sporting directors, presidents, they speak all the time to media. And yet it's me is having to explain this. But you're right that English football, I think, is struggling with this. And it's also quite, it's been a long struggle. In researching this piece, I found a clip from the League Managers Association dinner where Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger were on stage and the sort of hostility between them had kind of tempered a little bit. They got to a stage in their relationship where there was mutual respect and understanding.

44:45I think they both, you know, they both recognised that there were a lot of similarities between them in terms of the level of control and influence they wanted. And Wenger was on stage and he said, if the manager's not the most important person, then why is he the first person sacked when things go wrong? And the follow-up question was talking about situations at the time. And Ferguson said, oh, I really respect Alan Kerbishley and Kevin Keegan for leaving their roles at West Ham and Newcastle on points of principle. Because if you're not in control of recruitment, then what are you as a manager this was 2008 this was 18 years ago and still managers head coaches in 2026 are grappling with this and i do think that if you're going to give as an owner and that's another element actually owners are getting involved i think there's i think that is an underplayed characteristic here that the the owners are more likely to pick up the phone and So actually, I quite fancy signing this player.

45:45I'm going to get involved. Chelsea are clearly an example of that in recent years. But if you're going to give more responsibility to a structure around a head coach, the sporting directors, the technical directors, the global head of recruitment, all of these kind of titles, they have to be publicly accountable because too many of them are hiding behind the head coach. It's all well and fine. You're not going to give them the responsibility, but you are going to push them off the cliff if things go wrong. The balance isn't right. And I can understand from that point of view why Enzo Mareska and Ruben Amarim and others are frustrated by the dynamic in play there.

46:25I think often with stuff like this, that clubs sometimes get hung up on the actual structure of the club and who should report into who and what kind of sphere of influence that one person should have and focus less on actual relationships. I mean, you've got a situation at City City, you've got that sporting director model with a director of football who was Chiki Bagheeristan, but he's now Hugo Viana and then a manager, a very intense demanding manager in Pep Guardiola. But that has only worked for so long because essentially Bagheeristan and Pep Guardiola were best friends anyway. They had a working relationship where they were able to challenge each other, explain why they needed to sign a certain player and why that was important and also take the other person's point of view and kind of make the decision based on what was best in the interests of everyone instead of having a constant kind of battle.

47:15And when you compare that with what's happened at Man United with Jason Wilcox publicly saying that he can't help but interfere into the manager's role, you've got Ruben Amrim again, who's had the same problem that lots of managers run into, that he needed players who could get them results now because he knew that was a way to buy him time. But the club was saying, well no we need to invest in in younger players for for you to develop and that kind of the contrast between those two um recruitment strategies at City they've not really had any of that but only because Pep Guardiola got on so well with Bagheeristan and their personal relationship I think if you overlook the actual kind of the personal relationships between sporting directors director of football whatever you want to call it with the manager with the head coach again whatever you want to call it then you're on the road to failure really because you've always got two really big personalities from winning in a club bumping heads.

48:10And that's obviously never going to work as you go further down the line. I mean, I think one thing about City City is that they have a lot of inbuilt advantages in the sense that they've got great wealth. And we know that City don't really have to kind of count the pennies in terms of who can we sign, who can we not sign. But you're right, the Bergurie stank were the only thing. And Ferran Soriano as well, who was the chief exec who came from Barcelona. He was the third part of that wheel. So, you know, City have got a model which, when Pep leaves, it'll be different because then Hugo Vojana may feel emboldened by the fact that he's the senior guy and the new manager comes in, our head coach comes in, and that'll be an interesting power dynamic because right now we know exactly who's in charge.

48:44It's not Hugo Vojana, it's Pep Guardiola. Things will change as we move on. But I just want to, you know, talk about, we're going to talk about the Carabao Cup in a minute, Chelsea Arsenal. The Maresca-Leon Rossini situation is the completely opposite of the Mikel Arteta situation, whereby you say, James, is that the owners are getting involved in this. I mean, Chelsea have got five sporting directors, so I'm not quite sure which one got involved in this. But you know at Chelsea, the manager, the head coach, has got absolutely no say or very little say whatsoever in terms of who they bring in.

49:14Well, I mean, he does have a say, but he's one voice in a crowded room. As you say, you know, there are five co-sporting directors. there are owners who are actively engaged in how their money is spent put it that way and the head coach receives an awful lot of technical feedback at Chelsea and I feel as though the situation at Arsenal is very different now of course Arteta will argue that he's earned that over six years of sustained improvement and putting them as I say on the brink of of winning the league and you know the transformative effect that he has had on that club I don't think you can underestimate how important it was that he went from head coach to manager actually because in that that happened I think it was September 2020 and the sort of year 18 months after that was when they started paying up the contracts of players ripping players contracts up to get them out the club often a lot of talk about culture at clubs these days that was a cultural transformation and it was done with the ownership in lockstep with the then manager because they could say to the players you are not going to circumvent this guy you can't wait this out he's won a trophy we've shown how much we're backing him sort of figuratively by promoting him from head coach to manager but literally this is what we're doing it is his way or the highway and that was how they were able I think to drag themselves from this kind of culture of toxicity and mediocrity to where they are now on the brink of winning major trophies and look I mean the other element of this for Chelsea is that when you have a model like this where you're asking your head coach to be a cog in a wheel it means that you don't go for the guys with the big reputations you're you're you know, Morescu was a big gamble when they brought him in.

51:15You know, he hadn't managed in the Premier League. Yeah, he'd had one season with Leicester and a spell with Palmer, and he obviously worked under Guardiola of City as a coach, but he was unknown at the top level, and so is Liam Rossini. And when you come into a difficult environment, you're not going to get the manager bounce that you would normally get from the supporters. You've seen that already, that they've been protesting against Bluco and their ownership at the Fulham game, and again it was heard I think at Charlton the weekend of the FA Cup and that's because you're not going to get a manager who's you know it's not a Mourinho a Klopp you know a guy who's going to come in with this pedigree and this force of personality you can sort of say right I'm taking it in a different direction because it's not going to feel different he's Liam Rossini's biggest challenge is to prove that he's not a yes man to the owners because the ownership is is under pressure there at the moment from the fan base.

52:11They're singing Roman Abramovich's name at matches. That's not new. They've done it before, but we're hearing it consistently at away games now. That is a problem for the ownership. And so Liam Rossini is coming into this environment, and if you're not going to give him the level of control he needs to change things, then you're placing total faith in this collegiate sort of collaborative model. and if it doesn't work then it creates that tension very very quickly between the fans and the ownership and that's a very nasty place for a group of players to try and improve things and obviously a head coach to operate it So on that basis you know we talk about the I want to say hostility from the fans towards the owners it's getting there you're right but obviously Rossini's in the middle of that Chelsea Arsenal FA Cup sorry Carabao Cup semi-final first leg this week who is the Carabao Cup more important to?

53:05Mikel Arteta needs to win a trophy but obviously Liam Rossini would do very well to quieten the fans. So does it mean more to one manager than the other? Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about this. I think it matters an awful lot more to Chelsea and Liam Rossini. I think he has to... If he can win that competition, it does in some ways what the FA Cup did for Arteta in 2020. It says... I know it's not his first managerial appointment. He's obviously got some experience but this is a huge step up for Rossini. He would admit that. himself. If he can deliver a trophy in the first couple of months, it would sort of say to the fan base, okay, we can get behind this guy.

53:44He knows what he's doing. There's something tangible on the table. Chelsea are all about ruthlessly winning trophies. That's what they expect. And it would just kind of bring everyone into line behind him, I think. For Arteta, look, great. If he wins it, he can silence the people who say he hasn't won a major trophy for six years. but this is not a squad and a club that's built and aimed towards winning the Carabao Cup. If they win the Carabao Cup and don't win anything else, this season will be a failure for Arsenal. So it matters way more for Chelsea. I think if Arsenal win it, it galvanises the entire season and they go on to win the Premier League.

54:19I think it could be a massive thing for that group of players to get over the line. As small a priority as the Carabao Cup probably is for Arsenal because they've got bigger things to worry about, if they were to win that ahead of what is essentially going to be the title running, that could be huge for them. That was Jose Mourinho's thing as well, wasn't it? Win the first trophy of the season. And Jose, famous to do it at Chelsea. And I think, I agree with Rob on this, James. I was surprised you said Chelsea. I can see why you said Chelsea for the Rossini thing. But just for Artetti, it's to silence people like us.

54:48You know, if he doesn't win a trophy, if they fall at this hurdle again, he's got a bit of a record for semi-final failure. I know you're right. Bigger pick. He sorrows us for three months. I know, but he still takes away that. If they win the Carabao Cup and they don't win the league, Are we going to be sat here in May going, yeah, well done, Mikel. But it makes it easier than running, doesn't it? If they win the Carabao Cup, then the rest of the season, it makes it a little bit easier the fact that they've actually won something. If they lose the semi-final and don't win the Carabao Cup, then any little setback between now and then of the season, be like, oh, well, you slipped in there with the Carabao Cup.

55:16You didn't win that. So I know where it's going, but listen, I think they'll both love to win it, but I still think it's a bit more important for Arteta because Liam Rossini winning the Carabao Cup with Chelsea, is he going to keep him in a job beyond 18 months? I'm not too sure. What I would say just about the domestic cups for Arsenal is that they've, I think they've already proved their worth in terms of keeping a big squad happy. You know, if they'd gone out of the Carabao Cup early, they're obviously through to the FA Cup fourth round, see how far they go in that. But they've got the biggest sort of strongest squad they've ever had.

55:47And had they gone out of those competitions early and they had big players on good money, scratching around for 20 minutes, 15 minutes here or there or not playing at all, it would have kind of created a little bit of tension within the group that Arteta would have had to manage. But having got this far, and as I say with the FA Cup, and obviously they're going to go through to the Champions League knockout rounds as well, it just keeps everybody invested and everybody on side. So to some extent, the domestic cups have already kind of done their job. But I do get the point about getting over the line.

56:18It would be important for them. I mean, they got outplayed by Newcastle in the semi-final last year. They lost home and away to them. you know, if they were to be able to impose themselves on this semi-final, it would feel like another step forward. But I just don't think they're being judged in these terms. I just don't, I think they see, they just don't see it as important. You know, they are aiming higher. Well, it's definitely going to be worth carrying up how many games Arsenal might play this season compared to Man United, who we know are going to be 40 games. I mean, Arsenal could probably break the 60 game barrier if they carry on in all competitions.

56:48But just want to wrap up on Man City, Newcastle. It's the other semi-final at St. James' Park on Tuesday. Rob, I think you're doing that again. Again, you know, City always seem to do well in this competition. Pep Guardiola is a serial trophy winner, but they are playing the holders. So which way do you see this game going? I think City will struggle in the first leg because it's in James' park. It's obviously a very hostile atmosphere. It's a hard place to go anyway. I think they'll probably go through or they'll need to rely on winning at the Etihad. I think for Pep Guardiola, I think it's what he will consider to be another important step for this team.

57:19He considers it a new group. and he said when they won in the Bernabeu against Real Madrid that they have to get used to winning that type of game if they're going to go on and win bigger and better things and he will view that, this semi-final against Newcastle, in the same way. You know, it's like James just said there about Arteta and the Carabao Cup. It's not Pep Guardiola's main priority but he will feel getting through this semi-final, possibly getting to a final, possibly winning it as important steps towards this newer group, winning bigger and better things and possibly giving them the kind of the nudge to go on and really challenge Arsenal in the Premier League title race between now and the end of the season.

57:58Well, that's the FA Cup, the Carabao Cup. The Premier League will be back soon. Football never stops and neither do we. We'll see you again soon.

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