The Football Reporters: Did Pep Guardiola eclipse Sir Alex?

25:36And again, anyone that tells you that they do know doesn't because no one is saying anything about what is happening with these charges. is when we may get a verdict, what may be in that verdict, whether they've been found guilty or not. City have always protested their innocence pretty rigorously to the point where they think that they are going to be proved completely innocent and this is all going to go away. Nobody knows. The outcome of these charges, the reverberations of what is going to happen are monumental. And I wouldn't even begin to kind of guess what may happen because it is going to be that big.

26:10One way or the other, whether they get found guilty or not, whether it goes away or doesn't. Either way, this is going to be huge when it does finally come. Well, we wait and see when that happens. We're going to take a short break now and look at Spurs' survival on the final day of the season when we return. If you've ever wanted real energy without choking down something that tastes like regret, Bucked Up is the answer. The flavor is the thing people keep coming back for. Insanely delicious, which is not a phrase usually associated with energy drinks, And they're built on real science-backed ingredients.

26:42Clean energy that actually works without the garbage you don't want. Bucked Up is so confident you'll love their drinks, they're giving away an island vacation just to prove it. That's the kind of brand this is. No purchase necessary. Giveaway ends May 30th. Enter and find your closest Bucked Up at BuckedUpEnergy.com. Grab a Bucked Up and fuel like a million bucks.

27:11Well, next we're going to talk about Tottenham Hotspur, who narrowly avoided relegation to the Championship on the final day of the season. James, I'm going to come to you first. You've got a piece out on ESPN.com. If you haven't read it already, you should go and check that out. But how have we got here? You know, it's two 17th place finishes in a row now for Tottenham, having not so long ago been in a Champions League final. I mean, the kind of descent to where they are now has been pretty rapid and spectacular.

27:38Rob Dawson:yeah i mean where do you start essentially this is a club that doesn't have a sense of direction from the top and the piece that i've written starts with a story about how um peter charrington is the new um non-executive chairman uh took the legends of the club and the club ambassadors for a dinner, which is a sort of habitual, regular event that used to take place with Daniel Levy. And what would normally happen at that dinner is the club, Levy in this case, would disseminate information. He would sort of tell everybody the big picture, what they were trying to do. And then that would sort of be fed back to fans through fan events, stadium tours, all the kind of soft touches where the club can just kind of quietly disseminate their messaging, their information and try to soften the edges of whatever the frustrations were at the time.

28:43Rob Dawson:And when Charrington hosted this dinner for the first time, instead of doing that, he brought a notebook and he asked the legends what they should do to take the club forward. and to me that just really exemplifies the had the rudderless feel to the club and I spoke to a lot of people who work at the club for this piece and the the general feel you get back is how soulless it is how rudderless it feels after Levy and Levy had his faults but he was somebody who engaged with people at all levels he some would say he engaged too much and he listened to too many opinions but staff always felt as though they had a receptive ear if they wanted to voice a concern or there were problems and look a lot of this comes back again to these owners didn't want to be there there was a as much as they deny it and they've denied again that the club is for sale Spurs had got quite a long way down the line in negotiating the sale of the club back end of last year primarily.

29:54Rob Dawson:And for whatever reason, and there are conflicting reports about this, there's some stuff we can't talk about, but essentially that deal collapsed and the owners remain in place. And since then, they've had to talk again. They've had to say, we're custodians of the club. We're here for the long term. We don't want to go anywhere. We have no intention of selling all this sort of stuff but when you take into that context that they were going to sell it starts to explain the rudderless feel the lack of direction with daniel levy going as well vinay van ketzschem coming in johan lange fabio paratici coming back and then going again all the sort of transient feel at the top level which is filtered down into the sort of confused thinking with the manager appointments, with the transfer recruitment, and just with the general kind of culture at the club that standards have been allowed to slip because they don't really know where they want to go and how they want to get there.

31:00Rob Dawson:And when you start to pull back the layers of all of that, you then can start to understand how that's manifested on the pitch. And Postacoglu, like him or loathe him, decided to essentially compartmentalise the season and sort of fragment the thinking, if you like, to sort of say, well, domestic football basically doesn't matter in the second half of last season because, as he's said publicly in an interview since, all that matters is I need to win a trophy, we need to win a trophy, this club's not won any silverware for 17 years. He delivered that, but the club felt it came at too high a price.

31:36Rob Dawson:And that sort of split in thinking is still yet to be resolved. and Tom was obviously there for the final day for what I'm sure was a very tense and nervous occasion but they were right on the precipice because they've lacked this direction and clarity for so long. Well, just on that, I mean Tom, James just mentioned there that you were in the stadium on Sunday. I was listening on the radio on the way I was driving to City and they were interviewing Spurs fans outside the stadium and obviously they only needed a point against Everton who didn't really have all that much to play for. They'd kind of broken the back of their, in my mind, they'd already broken the back of that kind of relegation fight.

32:16And this last game of the season was just, you know, kind of stamping it. What struck me about the fans who were being interviewed outside that stadium was the nerves. You know, this kind of, no one really wanted to say that they were going to do it. And I found that remarkable, given they only needed a point. I mean, was the atmosphere in the stadium that nervous and that anxious? Absolutely. Yeah, it was. And it was almost frantic, though, because with the way the team arrived with this kind of plumes of blue smoke and whatever, the flares, is exactly what Deserby wanted. Then he came out onto the pitch and everyone went mad, basically.

32:51The whole of that vast south stand were kind of doing whatever he wanted in terms of getting the team ready. But the feeling, say, three hours before kickoff, and equally the week leading up after they lost at Chelsea, was a group of fans who were terrified of the unthinkable happening, effectively. I spoke to the last four weeks, I did a piece for ESPN.com on basically life inside the relegation zone. So I spoke to fans from West Ham, from Nottingham Forest and from Spurs, documenting the highs and lows, the moments of despair, elation, bargaining and whatever. It was almost like, you know, Faustian, what they were going through the whole way through.

33:26But eventually they got there. But there's one moment which really struck me, which was in the away game at Wolves on, I think it was April the 25th. I think Spurs took the lead and then Everton equalised at West Ham and so for a minute Tottenham were out of the relegation zone now they'd been sort of baited by the Wolves fans they were sung at saying you're coming down with the Wanderers and whatever and there was a group of them from the Spurs fans I spoke to who were at the game there was a group of younger fans who started singing we are staying up now the older fans basically told them in much less polite ways that I'm going to say to shut up because them singing it was an admission of the situation they were in and they were quite keen to escape this sort of reality this is Spurs we're a big six club you know we're in the Champions League final under Pochettino we won the Europa League and whatever so for them to try and realize what was going on and then to need something on the final day it meant that there wasn't a lot of confidence there at all there was like an expectation perhaps but not confidence so that really sort of came across and then so when Paulina did score in the first half there was this huge outpouring of relief but that tension was that all the way through to the end even in the 96th minutes or whatever it was when um Tyreek George um had a shot saved by Kinski it was definitely tense the whole way through and eventually there was this weird situation where you had players celebrating but equally there's an admission that this has been a disastrous season like Spurs finishing 17th for the second successive season is an absolute disaster and they have to ensure this is the nadir rather than what becomes the norm so the celebrations were slightly awkward they kind of jarred with the message Richard De Zerbi said, hey, this is great afterwards.

35:04One of my greatest achievements. Equally, we can never be here again. So it was a strange day. Well, just on that then, James, I mean, the one thing that is for certain is Roberto De Zerbi has got a reaction out of those players to get them out of that relegation fight. I think last season when they finished 17th, I mean, I looked at that table and thought, well, there's no way that Spurs are going to be in that position again, because that's just a one-off. You mentioned there about Postacoglu kind of turning away from Premier League games in favour of Europa League and that obviously played into it.

35:36But they are in that situation again. What does next season look like for Spurs? And are you expecting something similar again? Or are Spurs going to kind of, you know, inch up the table and become that big six team that they obviously believe themselves that they are, even if results on the pitch haven't kind of played that out? Well, look, I mean, every club that this happens to has to spin it this way.

36:02Rob Dawson:But when they've got no European football, they've got obviously fewer games, which means they can really streamline the squad. They can start making some difficult decisions about players they want to get rid of and really instill a culture in the club that is driving standards forward and not treading water as it's felt like it has been for the last couple of years. I mean, you know, I've mentioned on this podcast before that, you know, Thomas Frank, both publicly and privately, was quite scathing about the squad and knew it was a long-term job. He knew there was no quick fix there. Now, obviously, he didn't get the short-term results to get him out of it.

36:45Rob Dawson:And if anything, what De Zerbe's got out of this group in the last few games has earned him a little bit more credibility, I think, to go into the recruitment meetings and sort of say, right, you know, I'm prepared to make judgment calls on all of these players. And there's going to be quite a few that he's going to want to get rid of. And the club have to support that. And that's really the key thing for Tottenham now is that they've got to get their recruitment right. And they haven't done that for many, many years. And I've seen, there's been a bit of chat in the last 24 hours about potentially reviving a move for Savinho, the City winger.

37:19And look, I mean, Rob, you've seen him a lot more than I have.

37:24Rob Dawson:I can sort of see the argument for it. We're not sure exactly how much truth there is in this. I know there was some contact between the clubs last summer, but I think City kind of quickly dismissed any possibility of a deal. So whether they can get a deal over the line for Savinho remains to be seen. but he doesn't strike me as the kind of player that's going to take you from 17th to 4th. But I think there is certainly an intent from the Spurs board to be aggressive in this window. They have money to spend. They've got significant headroom with FFP. Not as much, I think, as people think, because I don't think they've made a profit since 2019.

38:03Rob Dawson:So they are in a position where they are going to have to sell, not going to have to sell, but they're going to sell players anyway. I think Christian, they're amazed at Christian Romero's there next season for one. I think there'll be three or four, probably reasonably high profile names they'll look to move on and then can use that money on top of what they have to reinvest into the squad. But yeah, they have to get that recruitment right and they have to go really all in on De Zerbe because the one thing I would say is if there is a vacuum within Spurs, well, De Zerbe has the force of personality to fill it.

38:37Rob Dawson:He is that kind of character. And he plays a very specific brand of football that will require a detailed recruitment plan to make it work. I think after the game as well, he was asked about the next steps. And he said in his mind, he said he had a great group of players, was really happy with the squad. He wants to keep between 10 and 12 of them. So if you're looking at a squad which has approximately between 25 to 30-odd players. That's a lot of players he wants to move on. He was asked about players who have really contributed a lot to them staying up, and he kind of touched on, like Dragosin was one he mentioned immediately for his character in a way that he'd kept the team going.

39:21Kinski, another whose story, his redemption arc's unbelievable, really. But there are a lot of players there on big salaries who he clearly feels just don't have a future there. Now, that's great in one way, but equally the challenge then is trying to find a new home for them. where you don't end up paying a huge portion of wages on loan or whatever. So it's a great idea in theory, but I know that he wants to keep Pelinia, he said, as much after the game. That's€30 million potentially straight away. So it's going to be a balancing act this summer, and he's not traditionally someone who has patience.

39:55We've seen him already. His sort of method here was putting his arm around the players. It was different to that in Bryson. It was very different to that in Marseille. He's clearly tried something different. But I think we're likely to see now more of the sort of Deserbi we do know over the summer and into next season. One who's restless, one who wants success and one who will demand the highest possible standards.

40:14Rob Dawson:I did a piece with Edu last week looking at the sort of inside track of how Arsenal came from oblivion to win the title. And one of the elements of that that he talked about was the paying up of contracts. the way that once Arsenal had identified the bad eggs, they got them out of the club in an extremely ruthless way. I can't think of another example of where a club, I think it was nine players, maybe even more actually, that they just paid up to leave. Not full, but 90 % of their contracts in some cases because they were so convinced that the culture of the club, the core of the club was rotten and they had to restart it and get these players out as quickly as possible and not have them dragging the boat down, as they used to call it.

41:08Rob Dawson:Are Spurs typically who have not prioritised football over the finances in the past, are they prepared to write off the kind of money, not saying they aren't going to get any transfer fees for Richarlison or for Christian Romero or some of the other players who I'm sure are going to leave. But if it comes to the crunch, are they prepared to take a financial hit to reset the club? And that is a big question that needs to be answered this summer. Does this leadership group now, the people running this club, are they prepared to take the difficult financial decisions to almost sort of clear out the dead wood and the bad eggs and give De Zerbi a core?

41:55Rob Dawson:It doesn't matter if the squad overall is smaller next season because there's no European football. So they can do it with a smaller group and really build a nucleus. I'm fascinated to see whether Spurs have the gumption to do it that way and be ruthless and be as clinical as Arsenal were to get themselves from this really toxic position to where they want to be in the future. Just one last one then to you, Tom, before we move on. What pool are Spurs shopping in this summer? Because the fans will expect top six players because they believe that they're a top six club. But I know for a fact that when clubs are in this position, if you're signing for Spurs, you're looking at a team that have finished 17th in two consecutive seasons, no top six player is going to want to run the risk.

42:48As much as it's nice for us to feel that a player's going to go, well, I'm the guy to come in and turn this around. I'm going to get you back up the league. Players don't usually think like that. It would be a big risk for a player to sign for Spurs because in their head, they'll be thinking, well, if it goes wrong again, I could be playing championship football in 12 months. Where do you see Spurs spending their money this summer and what kind of player are they going to be able to attract? It's a great question. I think James will know more about this than me, but we've seen them link with Sanesi already, that sort of player.

43:19so unbelievably good Premier League players perhaps maybe just under the cusp of being sort of in the top sort of six clubs in Europe you're looking at I think what they really need to do is prioritise if I were them I'd be prioritising sort of the next batch of players like Adam Wharton and these guys the guys from the Championship who they can take on and plug in you've got already brilliant players like Archie Gray I think these guys should be prioritised next season I'm a huge fan of his but equally you want to find the investments like the Elliot Andersons, the Adam Wartons, these guys who are incredibly talented players, require a little bit of tweaking, and then they can be sort of Champions League standard.

43:58They require a bit of patience. I don't know whether they do have that. But equally, that's what he's done so well previously. At Brighton, he improved players when he was there. The effect he had on someone like Matoma, he completely transformed him. He pushed Alexis McAllister on there as well, these sort of guys. So he does have an ability to transform and improve players. I think I'd be looking to those sort of figures. I don't know, obviously, Andy Robinson's been another one that's been linked, but today we're hearing that perhaps Juventus and a few others are quite keen on him, and why wouldn't he be?

44:26He's a great signing for a couple of seasons. He's put so much sort of trust in Ben Davis as well as a guy. His contract's, I think, still up in a month or so, so perhaps, you know, you want to keep him. It's clear that he likes his leaders, the guys who will give everything, with expecting sort of minimal returns almost. and we spoke about James Madison. He's a big personality, but equally, Deserby clearly loves him. He kind of wound him up and let him go, like one of those sort of micro-machines, basically. But I don't know. James, what are your thoughts on it? What sort of pool are they being sort of spending or dipping into this summer?

44:59Rob Dawson:Well, they recognised in January that they needed more leadership, which is why they tried to get Andy Robertson in, and they felt Colin Gallagher had that kind of character. so I think they'll be looking for characters as well as yes the more traditional Spurs model of trying to I mean habitually they try to sign younger players mold them and then they would end up selling them onto a to a top club wouldn't they I mean that's they've done a lot of that down the years as much as they might not like to admit it the one thing I would say for Spurs is their wage bill as a proportion of their turnover is low and so they've got a lot of headroom with the wage bill.

45:39Rob Dawson:And I remember speaking to one of the executives last summer about that and saying, you know, is that an area where you can be more aggressive? And the answer I received was essentially yes. They knew that they've got to start paying the bigger wages. And this was obviously at a time when they were thinking about the top six, not the bottom six. So I think that they've got some scope there, but that will be the question that you were asked earlier, Rob, about how players will think. Well, if they're being paid well, they will go to Spurs. And then it starts to become a bit more of a, it's the romance allied with the finance that might make it a package that you say, well, look, give me a year, we can get back into the top six, top seven, get into European football.

46:29Rob Dawson:Then you bring in the other factors. The stadium is incredible. the training ground is incredible and as an overall package it starts to become a more appealing club to play for but they will have to be more aggressive with the wages it's as simple as that really Well it's time for another quick break when we come back we're going to be talking about England, Thomas Tuchel and that's World Cup squad As you know managing maintenance, repair and operations is never easy but for the ones who always rise to the challenge Granger has your back from professional grade products you can count on to fast, dependable delivery, they're there to help you keep things running smoothly.

47:05Plus, their technical product specialists are here to help answer your toughest questions. And because Grainger knows safety is always a priority, they're committed to being your partner in protecting both your people and your facilities. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, clickgrainger.com, or just stop by.

47:25Well, we're going to wrap up today by talking about England. Guys, I know that you were both at Wembley for Thomas Tuchel's World Cup announcement. I must admit that I was particularly underwhelmed by the group of players that he's going to take with him to the US, Canada and Mexico. So I'm just going to start with your first reactions. James, we'll start with you as our main England correspondent. What do you think of the group that he's taking to the World Cup? Are you in favour? There's been an awful lot of talk about players he's missed out, but broadly, do you like it?

47:56Rob Dawson:I think Thomas Tuchel has been searching for an identity by his own admission. He's trying to work out how England should play. I think what this squad says is that he's clear in his mind about how they're going to play. Because it's only in that context that you start to, you can't look at it as the individuals necessary that are missing out. He said it virtually the opening statement he gave in the press conference on Friday was teams win tournaments. And when you look at this squad, you can pretty much nail down who the starting 11 is going to be. I'd say there's one or two maybe doubts, but you pretty much know who the starting 11 is going to be.

48:44Rob Dawson:And you pretty much know who the first subs, first alternates are going to be. And there's a clarity about that, which I like, and I think is informed by what happens at the last Euros. And I asked Huka whether he'd spoken to Southgate or any other international coaches. And he said, no, this has all come from us. But he did mention that it also sort of had internal feedback from the last European Championships. And I thought that's really interesting because you can start to understand why he's picked this squad when you think about what happened at the last European Championships. The squad, there were issues within that squad.

49:24Rob Dawson:They didn't all get on. There was a confused style on the pitch. Southgate, and I will defend him to a great extent because I think he's done a fantastic job, did a fantastic job as England manager. But that last tournament, even though they got to the final, was a bit of a mess in terms of what they were trying to do, how they were trying to play, changing the midfield as it went along with Trent in there, and then obviously kind of almost stumbled on Kobaymenu. None of that is going to happen this summer. There is a clear line-up, a clear plan. He has been very, very clear with these players that he's taken a sort of band of brothers type feel rather than the individuals who all look good on paper.

50:07Rob Dawson:And that's what we were criticising Southgate for, wasn't it? We were saying, we've got all these attacking players but there's no plan there's no clear pathway and then as it's kind of you know time has gone on and we reported it to some extent at the time but it's there's more information has come out since about the tensions behind the scenes he's trying to strip all of that away and I think he's tried to pick a squad that has that identity that has some energy to it and that everybody knows their role and is going to be prepared to to to support each other and be together 24-7 for what they hope will obviously be seven weeks.

50:45Rob Dawson:So I think in Tuchel we trust, right? This is supposed to be the guy who takes us from Southgate and the absolute, you know, on the brink of winning silverware. This is the guy who we're trusting to get us over the line. And these are the decisions he's made. Now, by leaving out the big names, as he's done, he's going to live or die by those decisions. But that's why you have an elite coach. Tom, well, I should qualify what I said at the top of this segment. I've long since said you can't take the 26 best players to a tournament because it doesn't work. And I completely agree. And I watched some of the press conference that Thomas Tuchel gave in front of you two guys where he said, these are not necessarily the best or the most gifted players, but this is the best team.

51:33And I'm fully behind that. That said, I was expecting one of Foden, Palmer or Gibbs-White to go as some kind of X-Factor player who you can kind of, maybe you start in some of the kind of the lesser, so-called lesser games or maybe bring on in the knockout games to kind of find you that edge. I was expecting Harry Maguire to go, obviously not for the same reason, but I do think that he would add something to that group. just in terms of your initial reaction to the squad Tom when you got that that press release at Wembley are you on the the side of James or are you a little bit more underwhelmed by it I think it was interesting that one of the last places yet to be reported before the squad was announced was whether Trent Alexander-Arnold had made it or not and by that point it was more a struggle sort of raised eyebrows than it would have been a couple of years ago where had he been left out it would have been you know protesters in george's park and the rest of it so we'd already seen uh the name ivan tony included we'd seen gibbs white foden and palmer left out so it's a strange old business and it's it's interesting as james said he's certainly prioritizing team cohesion and character it's what he kept on mentioning the whole way through and also in his press conference he also talks about how they have players for different scenarios whether you're chasing a game whether you're looking to close out a game he talks about having specialists whether it's someone like a disruptor in the box for harry kane like ivan tony penalty specialists and the rest of it so he's scenario planning and so he's trying to make sure this 26 is as malleable as possible to all the scenarios he's envisaging so that's that's you know data that's done through the team psychologist he's spoken to he did touch on how he spoke to tony's coach in saudi arabia to check on how he was doing that conversation with a player he used to coach seemed to be enough to convince Thomas Tuchel that he was worth taking so once you start looking at that you can kind of see how he's trying to map this all out having said that I do think they are going to miss that sort of that person who could be a game changer in the closing stages whether it is we saw you know Cole Palmer in the 24 final whether you look at Phil Foden who tried I think I know you guys have been talking about this for a while on the podcast about how Foden was a doubts for the World Cup squad but that game at Force 9 against Japan seemed to be the final nail in that coffin really but yeah I was surprised underwhelmed I'm interested to see how those two Walmart games go in America and I James will be there for us to see how things go really because there was a time that 5-0 win in Serbia he's clearly put so much sort of emphasis on that one as well he referred to that a couple of times on friday so it's whether we're going to see that or we're going to see the team who looked pretty listless against yorgoi in japan and also lost to senegal tom just mentioned there james that you are heading out to miami florida for that that pre-world cup camp where the players are hoping to get acclimatized sort of weather-wise obviously there's nothing riding on those is the two games that they're going to play there.

54:39But because of the noise and the conversation around this squad, are England going to have to show the fans something in those two games to kind of ignite their kind of, passion is the wrong word, but their kind of expectation for this tournament? Because it does feel like there does seem to be a little bit of kind of negative feeling now around this squad and what maybe this team can achieve at this tournament. Whereas that game that Tom mentioned, that result in Serbia, there didn't seem to be that at that point.

55:12Rob Dawson:No, well, I mean, I was at that game as well and England were brilliant that night. And Tom's right. Tuchel's constantly referenced the September, October, November period because he really felt as though they had a core group there, a group of players who wanted to be there. I mean, you know, note to producers to insert the clip now where I said, I think after the first Tuchel camp that Henderson would go. And the reason, despite Oggy telling me that I was wrong. So why waste a place on Jordan Henderson? Because I think he's going to take him. Really? At 36? I think there's every chance that Henderson will go.

55:51Rob Dawson:It's ludicrous to think he's going to be at the World Cup in eight singles tonight. because it was about that culture, the band of brothers and all of that sort of business. And what England need to show in Miami is the benefit of that. They can't go through the motions in those games. They need to be, it doesn't really matter if they win them, obviously, but there needs to be energy, patterns of play, a real purpose, and a physical sort of show of that unity that Tuchel has prioritised. Because I do think you're right about the reactions to this squad, but I think it says a lot about just our media landscape in general.

56:33Rob Dawson:You think about it now about fans who only follow their team, and we see this increasingly with journalists who only write about one club, and they tend to champion the best player at those clubs, right? understandably so but it creates this sort of myopic narrative around each player that like as soon as a Gibbs White doesn't go or as soon as a Foden doesn't go well there's you know the people I write for every day are going to be up in arms about this because we watch Foden every week or we watch Cole Palmer every week we know what you can really do even if there's there are some short-term issues there I do think the way that that the media landscape has gone in the last few years has kind of affected the conversation around an England squad when everybody's supposed to come together, no matter what club team you support, and get behind the squad.

57:25Rob Dawson:And maybe they don't have that perspective of seeing, probably don't watch all the England games throughout the year, the friendlies, the Nation League games, the qualifiers. And they probably don't watch a lot of the other players in this squad at rival teams or certainly regularly enough to sort of see how Tuchel's trying to put it together. Now, the one thing I would say, having been quite positive about this squad, is that I am quite downbeat about their chances overall, because I fear that no matter what squad they picked, fatigue is going to be a major issue. And again, I asked Tuchel about that, and he said it was the biggest challenge that they had to overcome.

58:05Rob Dawson:He was quite confident that they found a way to do that, that once the adrenaline kicks in and the prospect of being world champions is, you know, is realised. It comes into view that, you know, that that will sort of make the tired legs go away. But, you know, these two warm-up games were decided relatively late. They're going to be played on pitches that are not ideal. You've got four Arsenal players who have played 63 games this season, or they will have had by the time the Champions League final comes around. That's an awful lot of football. They're going to join up late. They're key players in the squad.

58:43You'd have to say that the Rice, Pakaio Saka in particular, probably doubts for that first game.

58:49Rob Dawson:Could they really come in and play that first game? Maybe Rice can. I mean, Rice is the kind of player who seems to be able to go on forever. But you do have concerns about then the humidity, the fact that they could play Mexico City in the last 16 at altitude, all those habitual concerns around the England squad and the way that England have played in tournaments and then the fact that they don't kick the ball well enough I bang on about this all the time that even under Southgate you know 2018 you had Modric and Kovacic who took the game away from England in that semi-final against Croatia Verratti and Jorginho did the same in the Euro 2020 final at Wembley obviously the last Euros final when Rodri went off Injun to when he came in and Spain monopolised possession and eventually won the game, an awful lot is riding on Elliot Anderson.

59:41Rob Dawson:If Elliot Anderson can be that kind of player for England, then that really could be a game-changing moment for the team and the prioritisation of keeping the ball well in these conditions, in tournaments like this. If he can solve that problem for England, then they have half a chance. But for me, there are too many unknowns, and the only X factor we have really is Thomas Tuchel. Can he make the difference? Is he the genius we all hope he will be that can end this long wait? I just feel there's too much to do, but I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Well, let's finish that today then with some predictions.

1:00:19I know that you both love making predictions on this pod because I'll get chucked at you when they're invariably wrong. I'm less confident having seen the squad, not that it really particularly matters what is written on a piece of paper, but I'm less confident now. I'm with you, James. That potential game against Mexico in Mexico City at altitude looks horrendous for a group of players who are going to be so tired after what is a gruelling season in the Premier League and Europe. So just are you more confident or less confident having seen the squad and where do you think England are going to get to?

1:00:54Tom, you go first. Probably less confident, I have to say, And also just factoring in the Aston Villa players who have had an unbelievable season with the Europa League too, but looking at Conce, Rodgers, Watkins is there as well. Conce's numbers are also ridiculous this season. So he's also going to be shattered. I think you're looking at, if they get through the Mexico game, then it's potentially Brazil, I think, up next, and that's Ancelotti and the rest of it. So he's going to have a plan. I think that's probably their sort of natural ceiling at the moment. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's where they'll sort of end up.

1:01:32The squad, I think also you're looking at the fitness at right-backs. He's banking a huge amount on Rhys James getting through this, Liv Rimento as well. Kwanza's there, I guess, in the Ben White role where he can cover centre-back and right-back as well. But if Rhys James picks up a knock early on, Liv Rimento is not quite there, then suddenly you're going to hear a lot about Trent Alexander-Arnold. So look, that's risky. It's definitely risky. He's got a plan. He's sticking to it. That's why he's paid a huge amount of money. That's why he's won the Champions League. But equally, a couple of injuries here and there, a couple of knocks, and it's going to come unstick very quickly.

1:02:07James?

1:02:08Rob Dawson:Yeah, I mean, it hasn't really shifted my view because I just don't... I've actually weirdly... I'd be more confident about them playing Brazil in the quarters than I would be about Mexico in the last 16. Because I just... Having covered the Club World Cup, obviously, Rob, you were out there as well, you know, we can't really overstate the importance of these conditions. And while Southgate made such great strides with this, it's kind of impossible to overcome fatigue when you've got Crystal Palace in the conference league final, Aston Villa win the Europa League, Arsenal win the Champions League, and the Premier League title race goes to whatever it was, 10 days from the end of the season.

1:02:51Rob Dawson:These are intense seasons that are going to be in the legs of the players, and some of these players, it's going to be too much for them. So look, I really, really hope I'm wrong. It's going to require Tuchel to use this squad and get every last drop out of all 26, and maybe we're going to see an awful lot of rotation, maybe more than than we're used to seeing. And maybe that's the way that they're going to try and peak as the tournament goes on. But yeah, for me, it's probably round of 16 and quarters at best. But I just don't see them being in Mexico. That's all we've got time for this week.

1:03:32Thanks to Tom and to James. We'll be back with more football reporters next week.

1:03:45The ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network in service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional cost. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now.