The Football Reporters: Liam Rosenior’s exit lifts Chelsea

19:08Mark Ogden:I mean, that's the point. It's a good point about Harlan because all the best, most title winning sides have a game-changing player. You know, Arsenal had it with Thierry Henry, you know, Robin Van Persie at Man United, Wayne Rooney, you know, Mo Salah at Liverpool, Harlan at City. Arsenal don't have one, do they? They don't have a player that is elevated to that level, whether it's a striker or a midfielder. They haven't got that absolute superstar who can turn a game on his head.

19:31Rob Dawson:No, I mean, Saka has that capability, but he hasn't. I suppose the final thing for him to prove is to be able to consistently do it in the biggest games. I mean, I suppose the other thing is that whether... I think it's fascinating how Guardiola's handled Turkey. And Rob obviously can talk about this better than me. But I think if you compare... If you're talking about match winners and sort of wild cards, well, Arsenal's version of that is Eberici Eze. And Arteta doesn't trust Eze. It's obvious. You know, he played on the left on Sunday. That was the first time he played on the left for Arsenal since they lost to Aston Villa, which whenever that was, two, three, four months ago.

20:11Rob Dawson:And he got caught out for the first goal. Matty Cash, legend of the Football Report podcast, and he is, scored the opening goal. It lost by Eze and he got taken off and he didn't play there for months. You know, I mean, that's how your sort of mercurial, I mean, he literally wears the number 10, you know, Eze is treated in an Arsenal team. You then compare that with Cherki, who seems to be given a bit more license, a bit more freedom. OK, you know, he's juggling the ball at Wembley and he's faking injury and mocking the Arsenal fans. And, you know, it's the sort of stuff you probably don't want him to be doing.

20:47Rob Dawson:But you kind of accept that because what a goal he scored against Arsenal on Sunday. You know, how brilliant has he been in the last few weeks? And, you know, Rob, do you think Guardiola's made a bit of a special case for Cherki in a way that maybe Arteta hasn't for someone like Eze, who I'm not saying is the exact same player, but that kind of player who might not do everything you want without the ball, but he can do things with the ball that few players can?

21:12James Olley:Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty fair comparison. I mean, there were parts of the first part of the season where Pep was actually changing the way that he played to make up for the fact that he knew that Cherki wasn't going to work hard off the ball. he almost at one stage of the season he was having Bernardo babysit Shirky basically saying you're going to have to do your running and you're going to have to do this guy's running because I keep telling him and he's not doing it and eventually you could see Pep where I sit at City is right behind Pep and you can see Pep in games get so frustrated with Shirky and Shirky's one of those characters who not many players do but Shirky will turn around and give Pep it back and say that almost as if he's saying shut up just let me get on with it which no players do

21:50Mark Ogden:just on that point it's really interesting that because after the game yesterday Pep was asked about Cherki, and it was a bit of a knee-jerk question. He was asked, do you think Cherki is a candidate for football of the year? He's had a good month or so. And Pep was really dismissive of it, really dismissive. It was almost like to say, no, no, he's had a good month. Don't even go. Yeah, calm. And I read into that that Pep has said a few things about Cherki, as if to say he doesn't quite trust him. He's got that, not laziness, but a kind of a, he's got something about him that he's not a team player, but he's a brilliant individual player.

22:21Mark Ogden:I mean, people talk about Lionel Messi yesterday. I'm going to go back a little bit further and say he's more like George Kinkladzi. He's got brilliant talent, but he can let a team down unless he's surrounded by players that have got real kind of work ethic. So, sorry, Rob, I interrupted you then, but I do think there's definitely an issue there.

22:36James Olley:I just think that with Cherokee, that Pep has realised that the Premier League is based very much on duels at the moment. If you win your duels, that you are going to win the game. And there's not a lot of space. There's a lot of man marking. if you've got a player who can dance around a player with ease that Shirky can, that is almost like having two players because you can't manage that. It drags other players away and you create your own space. We saw it with the way that he created the goal for Mark Gahey at Chelsea. He kind of just drifts across the box. He beats a few and then Mark Gahey's in acres of space and he scores.

23:08James Olley:I don't think that anyone else on that pitch yesterday can score the goal that Shirky did to open the scoring against Arsenal because he's just got that touch and that skill to get past Gabriel and Declan Rice dives in and then he scores. I think that Pep has realised that having a play like that on the pitch is worth it, even though he knows that there are occasions where he might cost them. And there was a point early in the first half where Chirky gets the ball. It was almost on the spot when Nunes throws the ball back to Donnarumma for that Havertz goal. But he gets the ball and he's surrounded by three Arsenal players.

23:41James Olley:And he ends up trying to do a trick and he tries to pop it off and it doesn't really work. and I looked around at Pep and he was, if he had, if he has hair, he would have been pulling it out. He was going absolutely bonkers. And it was almost like he had to bite his tongue and think, right, I have to kind of deal with this, him giving the ball away in a stupid area because I know that he's capable of doing something brilliant. And then 10 minutes later, he does something brilliant and scores a goal. He's that kind of player. And I think Pep has kind of learned to live with what he doesn't like about Scherke because he knows there is a lot to like about him.

24:09Mark Ogden:Can I just throw it forward to an area where I think Arsenal have got an advantage over City and that's in goal? I think David Rea, if not the best Premier League goalkeeper, certainly one of the best. But, you know, Donnarumma made a horrendous mistake yesterday for Arsenal's equaliser. And I think Donnarumma's reputation is one that is the world's best goalkeeper. It's based on the fact he's a brilliant penalty shooter. He's had a great run to the Champions League final with PSG last year. But Rob, you see City all the time, and I've seen quite a bit of City recently. There was that brilliant save at Anfield earlier this season, which kept City in the title race, but he's not very good when the ball's in the air.

24:40Mark Ogden:He's not great with the ball at his feet. I just wonder if he could be the guy that may cost it in a title, whereas Ray could win it for Arsenal.

24:48James Olley:Well, again, Pepper's had to change the way that he plays a little bit to compensate for the fact that it's Donnarumma in goal and not Edison. You saw on Sunday with the way that Arsenal started with their press. The ball was going back very often to Donnarumma, and he looked nervy before the goal anyway. And there was a point at which Bernardo came back into the penalty area to take a goal kick, and then it was Rodri, because they just didn't really trust Donnarumma with the ball. And one of the reasons I think Pep was so frustrated with the goal is because just before that, he started to tell Donnarumma to go long.

25:17James Olley:He said, don't, just stop trying to play out and go long. He was telling Doku and Semenyo to stay really wide and have the ball smashed up to Haaland and let those two run on to flick-ons, which is why he was so annoyed that Nunes chose to throw the ball back to Donnarumma. if you ask City players they say they've been surprised with how comfortable Donnarumma is with the ball because they were assuming that he just couldn't kick because of all the narratives around him he's not as good on the ball as Edison is so they've had to change the way they play I do wonder whether when they signed Donnarumma that Pep had realised that the Premier League had become more about man-to-man marking, you had to go along more often it was about having a big physical peasants in the box to deal with set pieces.

26:04James Olley:Donnarumma isn't as good at that as he should be with the height that he is, but he is a fantastic shot stopper. And I do wonder with the next five games whether we'll see City go longer more and more often because it's just not Donnarumma's game. And if he was sat on this podcast, he would say, well, don't sign me if you want a goalkeeper to have 200 touches in a game and spray the ball out because that's just not what I do. I save shots and punch the ball clear from set pieces, which essentially is what he's done.

26:33Mark Ogden:I'll try and get him on and ask him before the season finishes. I'm sure he'll love that. In the absence of even coming on, James, do you think that Ray is a better option than Donnarum and that could be Arsenal's advantage?

26:45Rob Dawson:It's funny because I've actually asked David Ryer a couple of times about whether he considers himself, should he be in that conversation? Because he doesn't feel like he is really in that conversation of best goalkeepers in the world. And I don't really know why, because he's been fantastic. I mean, I've seen him most weeks and he's so consistent. A couple of errors have been creeping into his game recently, but I think that's to do with this sort of collective nervousness and the fact that Arsenal struggle to play through, I mean, City's press twice. They've had issues with it, obviously most notably at Wembley.

27:25Rob Dawson:but I mean in terms of his shot stopping it's phenomenal you know these things are always unquantifiable really but I mean he's saved them points multiple points this season and last season and he's such a reliable presence there and I always remember actually when he first came in and there was that whole sort of issue with Aaron Ramsdale at the time was the number one and he was very popular and the fans didn't really sort of understand why they were spending whatever it was, 30, 35 million, I can't remember which it was now, I think it was 30, on a goalkeeper when they already had one. But Arteta was like, well, this is obvious, we need an upgrade.

28:06Rob Dawson:And he, credit to him, he saw it before the rest of us. But there was a real nervousness every time he was playing out from the back. And there was a period where Arteta had to sort of say to the supporters, look, you know, he's going to work, just give him time to settle in. And he came through that to be just a reliable, consistent presence. I think he's the best goalkeeper in the league. I think he's better than Donnarumma at the moment. I mean, that can flip, that can change. It's close between the two. But yeah, I think if I was... I mean, I hate those combined 11s, but I think if I was doing one, I would be picking David Reier at the moment.

28:40Mark Ogden:So we're going to go to a break in a minute and discuss what is a meltdown at Chelsea, to be honest, and it's getting worse by looking at the results, etc. But before we go to the break, just in one word, who's going to win the league? James.

28:53Rob Dawson:Rob, when we did this a few weeks ago, we all said City. All of us said it. So I'm going to stick with City, but with no conviction or confidence. Rob?

29:06Mark Ogden:Man City. I'm going to go Arsenal. I've just got a feeling that they're going to outscore City. And on that note, we'll go to a break and talk about the unhappy camp at East Chelsea.

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30:33Mark Ogden:So Rob, you were at Chelsea Man United on Saturday. Turned out to be a really big win for United in the chase for a Champions League sport. but he does seem like the top five now he's pretty much set. Chelsea, seven points adrift after the weekend results. Chelsea's current form is six defeats in seven. The only win in that sequence is against Port Vale. League One relegation throughout Port Vale. It's not looking too good for Liam Rossini right now. I've been to Chelsea recently, I think we all have, and the mood around the club is very sour at the moment. It's not all directed at Liam Rossini, but with Brighton away on Tuesday night, you get the sense that time could already be running out for Rossini despite having only arrived in January.

31:08Mark Ogden:So, Rob, what was the move like at Stamford Bridge at the weekend? Was it beginning to turn on the manager as well as the club?

31:13James Olley:Yeah, I mean, I haven't been to Stamford Bridge for a while. And obviously, I've read all about the discontent among Chelsea fans on Saturday night. I kind of experienced it firsthand. I actually sat next to James at Arsenal at City on Sunday. And the first thing I said was I didn't realise how toxic the atmosphere is down there. There was a protest against the ownership before kickoff. The fans who were involved in that said that the numbers, I think they estimated it was about 1 ,000, they said the numbers had grown quite significantly from a similar protest that had been done in January. We'll all know that the press box at Stamford Bridge is right down behind the benches.

31:51James Olley:It's kind of right in amongst the fans. From the first few minutes, really, the fans around the press box around Liam Resignia's bench were on him straight away, kind of shouting at him from behind him about his tactics, about things he was and wasn't doing. It turned really quite toxic in the second half, about 75 minutes. Most of Stamford Bridge was singing, we want our Chelsea back. There were anti-songs about the ownership, about Agbali that were really quite loud. Towards the end of the game, when Chelsea are trying to score an equaliser, the fans really were getting on the back of Resinia.

32:29James Olley:There was one bloke in particular who just stood up for about the last 15 minutes just screaming, Liam, we're losing. Do you realise we're losing? As if to say, change something, do something, you've got to start attacking. It really did feel quite toxic. And I know that, again, I don't cover Chelsea as closely as James does and he'll know far more about it than I do. I know that the ownership have kind of said that they want to stick with Liam Resenia and they want to see this project through and they want to kind of judge him, not in the summer, but in 18 months' time. Sat inside Stamford Bridge on Saturday night, it really did feel like he was running out of time.

33:06James Olley:Because the one thing that the club can't ride out is animosity among the fans. And if the fans really, really turn, with the best will in the world, the club can want to stick with him as much as they want. If he can't garner support from the fans who go to home games regularly, then he hasn't got much of a chance. And Chelsea will have to look to make a change.

33:26Mark Ogden:James, I just want to ask you about this quote from Benedict Barley last week. He was speaking in the US last Friday. he was asked about whether they're behind Liam Rossini and he said, I think we're behind him. What does that say? He thinks they're behind the manager. I mean, that doesn't suggest if I'm Liam Rossini, I'm thinking I'm not going to be here much longer despite my six-year counteract.

33:48Rob Dawson:Yeah. I mean, you can interpret that, I suppose, in a number of different ways, but I think it is fair to say that the ownership is starting to have some doubts about the appointment. the plan was always to judge him at the end of next season so when he'd had a full year in the job he'd had a full pre-season they'd obviously had another transfer window to tailor the squad and improve improve the options at his disposal but shelves expect year on year to be a Champions League club and it is increasingly unlikely that they're going to make the Champions Lee and that is a major problem for a senior.

34:30Rob Dawson:And Rob's right. The fan discontent has been growing steadily for some time. It's now a regular occurrence that Roman Abramovich's name is sung at matches and that's obviously very pointedly a reference to the glorious past of the club if we separate Roman Abramovich, the man and the money from the achievements. they felt that there was a club there that was built to win and would do so at all costs. What they feel they have now is a sort of corporately managed team that has a yes man in the dugout. And that, unfortunately, is the perception that Resignia is fighting. And that's why it's turning sour as quickly as it could really for him.

35:22Rob Dawson:Obviously, if he's lost six and seven, any manager loses that and you're at a club like Chelsea, you're going to come under pressure. but he doesn't really have any goodwill built up with the supporters because there is, you know, in a lot of these situations, you know, Thomas Frank's probably a good example of this, where eventually they came to realise that Frank maybe wasn't up to the job. They felt he wasn't the right man, but he got a grace period initially because the frustration was elsewhere. It was at the ownership. It was at Enoch. It was at, you know, various sort of boardroom level for the fans to focus their frustrations on.

35:54Rob Dawson:and there was a separation there. There isn't with Liam Rossini. He's seen as the Blue Co man. So he's part of the problem. The wider issue that they feel that Blue Co's ownership and their unique model of signing all these young players on long-term contracts and having five sporting directors and all these sort of cooks in the kitchen is not producing the football and the results that they want. So because Rossini is not separated from that in a way that a lot of managers and head coaches would be in that position, it started to look really bleak for him. And, you know, they play Brighton on Tuesday night, which is a massive game.

36:36Rob Dawson:If they lose that and then were they to lose the Cup semi-final to Leeds, which given how buoyant Leeds are at the moment, is a distinct possibility. You have to wonder whether he is going to be manager there next season. and that's when the slight ambiguity in what Egbali said there, you know, that sentence speaks a thousand words, doesn't it? I mean, in some respects,

37:02Mark Ogden:I do have some sympathy for Liam Rossini because he was offered a job he could never turn down. I mean, he was never ready for it. Look, as a player, he hasn't got the credentials to manage that dressing room because they look at him, they don't know who he is. I mean, Esteve made the joke, didn't he, when he miscontrolled the ball at Arston, that classic clip. Esteve actually asked him, were you a player? I mean, if one of your young players is asking you, were you a player? That suggests the dressing room are not convinced by you. But I just think there's got to be more scrutiny on the sporting directors because yes, you're right, there are five, James, but I think the key ones are Paul Winsland and Lauren Stewart.

37:31Mark Ogden:They were the ones that drove the appointment of Resenia in January. And I think they diminished the role of the coach to the point where they think a guy with no top-level experience as a coach, I mean, he had a season at Hull. So do they not think that a manager has to walk into a dressing room and convince his players? Now that Chelsea dressing room, it might be a young dresser, but it's got players who've won the Champions League, they've won the Club World Cup, they've won the World Cup. They're going to look around and think, sorry, but who are you? And that is the battle that Rossini has to overcome.

37:59Mark Ogden:Now, you know, at Man United, they appointed Michael Carrick a week or so later. And Michael Carrick, you could argue, has got a similar lack of top-level experience as the manager as Liam Rossini, but at least Michael Carrick had the playing credentials whereby the players are looking and thinking, yeah, we know who you are. You've won the Champions League. You're a player that's had great success at Man United. You're one of us. Liam Rossini is one of them in terms of the players. They're looking at this guy, and he doesn't even look like an ex-footballer. I was sat behind the dugout for the City game last week, and physically he doesn't look imposing.

38:28Mark Ogden:He's not got a presence about him physically or in terms of persona. So the players look at him thinking, it's almost like when you're at school and you have your teachers off and you have a supply teacher coming in and everyone just misbehaves because they don't have any faith or they don't trust the guy. They think he's a bit of a clown. I'm not saying that Liam Rossini is a clown. and that will be unfair. But I do think the players look at him thinking that you're not up to this and he's not up to it. And I think you're being kind of overfair to Rossini by a question whether they'll be there next season.

38:56Mark Ogden:I think if they lose at Brighton, he might not be there on Sunday against Leeds because if they lose at Brighton, their season's over. The only way they can salvage it is by winning the FA Cup and that won't really do for Chelsea. But I think he's really teetering down the brink now, Liam Rossini.

39:08James Olley:I think there needs to be experience somewhere in a football club, on a football side of a football club. But Alan Hampton gets killed for that quote, that famous quote about Man United, you don't win anything with kids. But he's right, because you don't win anything with a whole dressing room of kids and a manager who's that young. People forget about that United team. Had Alex Ferguson in charge, they still have players like Steve Bruce, Roy Keane. There was experience running through that team. Where is it at Chelsea? There was a point at which, I don't know, you might have seen this video where, I think it's Fafana comes off on Saturday night and he kind of brushes off a coach's kind of congratulations or doesn't it really acknowledge him, just kind of storms off.

39:49James Olley:Whether that matters or not, optics like that matters. And you need to have experience somewhere, whether it's an experienced player or an experienced manager, somewhere to get a grip of that kind of culture. Someone like Thiago Silva, for example. Where is the Thiago Silva figure in that dressing room? It's full of really, really good players, but they're all of a similar age and similar experience.

40:12Mark Ogden:Even the coaches, Rob. I mean, you mentioned the coaches. I mean, Michael Carey brought in Steve Holland, which was a great movie because Steve Holland's got credentials. The Chelsea bench of coaches, it's basically the guys who coach under 18s. I mean, it's the guys that were in charge for a couple of games when Enzo Morescu was sacked. They are absolute nobodies in terms of who these guys would recognise. You know, there's a story, and I'm sure you guys know it, that when Ralph Rangit was appointed caretaker manager at Man United a few years ago, one of the players had to Google him. and I was told that by the player's agent.

40:41Mark Ogden:Now, you can get, as soon as Leon Rossini was appointed at Chelsea, the bigger players would be like, to their agents, to their teammates, who is this guy? And I can't believe for one minute that they said, oh, he's the guy who works at Strasbourg. We know who he is because he works at Strasbourg. Enzo Fernandes and Moises Caicedo, people like that, don't look at who the manager of Strasbourg is. It's a joke appointment. Chelsea get one they deserve.

41:02Rob Dawson:I think what they're also trying to do behind the scenes, that it's significant that Caicedo signed a new deal. last week. Colwell following suit. Rhys James has obviously signed a new deal recently. Chelsea's model is, everyone talks about these long-term contracts, but actually the basic wage that these players are on is actually very modest. I was told, I think it was last year, that the average wage in the squad was about 60, 65 grand a week, which is a basic wage. And then there's a lot of, you know, win, score, appearances, whatever. There's a lot of incentivised add-ons on top of that. I think it's significant that I think what they're doing now is they're upping those wages for some of those key players.

41:49Rob Dawson:They're talking to Enzo Fernandes about trying to get him to commit as well. I think they've gone to Caicedo and they've upped his wage. And I think they're sort of recognising exactly what you guys are talking about, which is that, you know, are the players really going to buy into this if they're also being effectively underpaid? on a market level versus what they could get if they were an equivalent club elsewhere. So I think they're trying to, at least to be fair to Bluco, I think they've recognised that.

42:20Mark Ogden:Well, you talk about the players, James, and the contrast, and you're right. They've signed Rhys James to the on-site contract. They've signed Caicedo, Enzo Fernandes and Cole Palmer, probably the other two people are talking about. But if they miss out on the Champions League, and we know that Chelsea recorded massive losses, how can they convince the likes of Enzo and Cole Palmer to commit to Chelsea if they're not in the Champions League next season? And also financially, would it be naive to think that they can't get through that summer without selling one of their biggest stars?

42:46Rob Dawson:Well, I don't think they're in a position where they have to sell, no. But it's a critical summer for them because they need... This whole model is predicated, these long-term contracts, it's not predicated on this group growing together, developing together, all being together for a number of years. And I think what you're seeing at the moment, which is kind of what I was sort of discussing there, is you're seeing an attempt to keep that together through other means. So the fact that Cole Palmer's done a big interview with The Guardian last week, and then he's even just talking pre-match to TNT about his future, although he didn't, in typical Cole Palmer style, he didn't actually do it with the conviction that he maybe should have done, where he sort of cast doubt about whether or not if they're not in the Champions League, everything changes, which is not really the message I think he was sent out.

43:37Rob Dawson:That's hard, isn't it?

43:38Mark Ogden:It does change everything.

43:39Rob Dawson:Yeah, it is the point. It is the point. But that's the battle that's going on at the moment, as I think the club are trying to say, right, we're going to improve your basic wages for some of these players. We're going to pay you more because we recognise the situation. We're going to get the poster boy for the Blue Co era, Cole Palmer. We're going to get him out. You know, he's the one. They signed him for a relatively low figure. Young player improved. exploded sort of on the international stage as well with England. You know, you're not going anywhere. Go out there and say that. Tell that in a newspaper interview.

44:09Rob Dawson:Go and tell the broadcasters that. They're trying to preempt this. But I don't think they're in a position where they have to sell, but they may well be in a position where one or more players, and I think Enzo Fernandes is, from what I can tell, I think he's likely to push to try and leave in the summer. you know, if he goes, it could be a domino effect and you could see two or three try to push their way out. Then it becomes a battle of this model. You know, well, they're on these long-term contracts. Can they get out? How easy is it for these players to get out and force their way out? Is it going to be going on strike?

44:48Rob Dawson:Is it all that kind of thing? And, you know, how will it go from there?

44:53Mark Ogden:Just have to mention the Man of United's win and Bruno Fernandes' performance again, another assist. I think he's too short of equaling the Premier League record for assists in a season. He's on 18 right now. I think Thierry Henry and Kevin De Bruyne might hold it with 20. So he's had a fantastic season with Bruno Fernandes. And we're in one of those strange seasons where there's not an obvious outstanding candidate for Football of the Year for the Player of the Year award. Now, Bruno is right up there. But could a Man United player win the Football of the Year, despite the fact they haven't won a trophy?

45:20Mark Ogden:If Man City will win a treble, if Arsenal win the league, do you think it's feasible, Rob, that Bruno Fernandes is in the running to be Football of the Year? I think so.

45:28James Olley:I mean, you're right, there isn't a standout candidate. I think if there's a team who wins a league by 10 points, say Harland has scored 40 league goals or something, he would be the very obvious choice. I think in the absence of that kind of performance across a whole season, that Bruno should be right in the mix. The assists record, if he were to match that or break that, would be an incredible achievement, particularly because people tend to forget that he played under Amorim for the first part of the season and he was playing as one of the deeper-lying midfielders. It's only since Michael Carrick's come in that he's been pushed further forward in what people would say is his more natural position where he can create.

46:10James Olley:He was terrific again against Chelsea on Saturday. A game of quite few chances, a really tight game decided by fine margins and it's him who's kind of run into the corner, held off Garnaccio and whipped a wonderful ball into the box for Cunha to score. So I think there's a real argument that he is the Premier League's outstanding player this season and therefore should be in amongst these individual awards. I think it would be very well deserved, particularly if he goes on to beat that assist record. Because like you say, he's trying to beat benchmarks set by Kevin De Bruyne and Thierry Henry, two of the best players that the Premier League has ever seen.

46:48James Olley:For Bruno to get beyond them and set a new individual assist record would be a phenomenal achievement.

46:54Mark Ogden:I mean, I think he's definitely up there with a chance. I mean, if I had to vote today, I'd probably just vote for Antoine Semenya. I think he's had a great season with Bournemouth as well as City. I think he's been a big player for City as well. But he's not a classic football player in the sense he's dominated the season. But I don't know what you think, James. And I know you place a lot of kind of store on the fact that it is about the example the player sets as well as the performances they have as well. So, you know that Bruno can annoy people with his behaviour on the pitch at times and he does kind of argue with referees a lot.

47:19Mark Ogden:Do you think he ticks all the boxes or are you still kind of hesitant to say he's the guy?

47:24Rob Dawson:yeah he does I mean yeah the the voting criteria for the Football Writers Award is by precept leading by precept and example so it's supposed to take into account you know it's not just a goals and assists race or you know a clean sheet race or whatever it is you know it's not about the numbers solely so you have to I've never been entirely convinced by Bruno Fernandes as a captain I've always thought you know in the difficult moments he's not he's not always the leader you'd want, I think. But it's hard to criticise him this season. I mean, he's been so consistent and he's been a driving force for that team, to be fair, through those difficult moments.

48:08Rob Dawson:So maybe he has evolved as a captain. I don't know. You guys obviously see him more than I do. But it's difficult because it's wide open. I mean, obviously, it looked as though Arsenal were going to win the league. They still might. But who's been their standout player? Probably Declan Rice. probably Gabriel Magalhaes at the back. David Rea. Hey?

48:30Mark Ogden:David Rea. Goalkeeper never wins it, but David Rea's.

48:32Rob Dawson:David Rea. But yeah, goalkeepers, as you say, don't tend to win it. But the Arsenal Player of the Year award is a competitive race. So there isn't a clear candidate for them to then talk about the league as a whole. I'm with you. I mean, we talked about this on Sunday, didn't we? Semenya would probably have got my vote before the game, but I didn't think he played very well against Arsenal. Now I'm thinking, actually, maybe not. That's sort of where I am with it. I think there's two or three in the mix. I always try to combine the precepts and example thing with generally the player that makes the difference for the team that wins the title.

49:09Rob Dawson:Those are the two things that are always going on in my mind before I cast my vote. Of course, with five games to go, we don't know who's going to win the league. So it's even more complicated than ever at the moment.

49:19Mark Ogden:Well, I'll simplify it. We're now going to talk about Tottenham. There's no Tottenham players than running for football of the year this year. I think that's fairly safe to assume. But obviously you were at the game on Saturday, James, when they looked like they'd got a massive win against Brighton only to draw in the end. And I mean, we're talking today before West Ham played Crystal Palace on Monday night. So who knows how that'll end up. But Spurs are in a mess, aren't they? And it's looking pretty bleak at the moment.

49:41Rob Dawson:It is. I mean, the one thing I would say is that there is something there for De Zerbe to spin into a positive. It was their best performance for quite some time. You know, Javi Siemens for a while, before the 95th minute equities are completely ruined what I'd written and I had to rewrite it, you know, the curse of the last minute goal for a journalist. You know, he is in many ways the poster boy of a failed season, Javi Siemens, because they spent 65 million euros on him right at the end of the window. They only went for him because they didn't get Eze and they didn't get Gibbs White. You know, he was a sort of third choice in that respect for that kind of creative, dynamic midfield position.

50:25Rob Dawson:He struggled all season to produce anything like the kind of form that we know he's capable of. And then he delivers in the key moment, great assist for the opening goal. And then, you know, what looked to be at one stage the winning goal, 13 minutes left, fantastic goal. He's been trying to score that goal all season, actually, working the ball onto his right foot on the edge of the box and curling it into the far corner. That's his sort of go-to goal, his trademark goal. And he hasn't really found it. And to find it in that game, look, I mean, the celebration shirt off into the crowd with 13 minutes to go, I think said more about how it's a catharsis for him, I think, wasn't perhaps fully respective of the situation that a team that hadn't won a Premier League game for four months had still had 13 minutes plus stoppage time to go and still hasn't won.

51:19Rob Dawson:So I think there's enough there. You know, Colin Mouane, you know, the fact that Siemens came in for Richarlison, Colin Mouane and Solanke and Siemens, you sort of look at that front three and it's clearly the way that I think De Zerbe is going to go now to give those three the trust and responsibility to score the goals to keep them up. You look at that and you think, if they can start finding a bit of cohesion, a bit of, you know, rediscover some of their past form, that they have the pedigree to get them out of it. But then the killer blow comes. And how many more hits can they take? You know, that, I mean, there were Spurs fans near me at the end in tears, you know, and the final whistle wasn't greeted with boos.

52:03Rob Dawson:It was just, they were stunned. They were absolutely stunned that they got so close to what would have been such a massive win for them and a psychological breakthrough for them. I mean, they were crestfallen. Danso, I mean, what he's doing for that equaliser, by the way, I mean, crazy. Just put your foot through it and clear it. Try and take a touch in the box and stop his time. Mad, you know. But Danso's sort of out on the turf. You know, Pedro Porro is same. And then he's covering his head over his shirt. Solanke looks, you know, his chin's on the floor as he's walking off the pitch. I mean, it's another massive psychological blow for a team that is so fragile on confidence and self-belief.

52:42Rob Dawson:And it's why De Zerbi comes into the press conference afterwards and says, well, from what I've seen today, we can win all five games. Don't even think about, you know, what we need to stay up. We'll just win every game and it'll be fine. Because he's got to give them, he's clearly got some confidence into them because they were able to play, you know, that well. but to suffer another blow like that, I mean, you do worry about whether this is the final blow, whether they can recover from it. I mean, they've got Wolves. The Wolves game away next is just beyond big for them. If they can win that and build on the best parts of that Brighton game, they've got to leave the scars of that behind very quickly, then you could see them getting out of it.

53:23Rob Dawson:But if they don't beat Wolves, then, as you say, results are going against them. I feel so.

53:31Mark Ogden:So, you listen, it's going to be great into the season in North London, isn't it? You know, Arsenal are going to win five games. Spurs are going to win five games. But, you know, that's the optimistic scenario. Anyway, we're going to go for a final break and we're going to come back talking about the ever-diminishing size of shin pads.

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54:18Mark Ogden:So we've got a guest on the show today. It's Zach Chisler, who is co-owner, I think, a guest of Joga, the shin pad company, who are making, I guess, smaller and smaller shin pads for the market these days. Now, people may have noticed that players nowadays are wearing shin pads that probably don't even kind of meet the description of shin pads. Some are very, very small and probably not even shin pads per se. But Zach, you've started to produce shin pads that are smaller than they would normally recognise. But I think it's because you and your brother, who's a player in South Africa with Kaiser Chiefs, have basically spotted that a lot of players wanted smaller shin pads, but it wasn't really a market for them.

54:56Rob Dawson:Yeah, we started probably three and a half years ago and that was our kind of flagship product was the mini shin pads. He was actually playing in the UK at that time. That was obviously a Kaiser Chiefs. He was playing for Wimbledon, I think. I was playing in non-league, I think for Hampton or Richmond. And yeah, we just noticed in the changing rooms ourselves that players just hated the shin pads. They weren't even wearing any. Most players, especially the forward-thinking players, just weren't wearing any shin pads or just stuffing anything down their sock from the physio bag um so yeah we didn't have any experience in business or making products or anything we just thought like why is there nothing that these players can actually wear um and why are they having to put little pieces of foam from the physio bag into their into their socks um so yeah that's that's how it started really that was our main viral products um to be honest now we don't actually sell them as much um they're probably our fourth or fifth bestseller now we've kind of shifted away i would say more from from those those tiny ones but yeah so why have you shifted

55:59Mark Ogden:away from the tiny ones a player is more safety conscious of you is it just kind of evolved to the point where you've got a kind of happy medium between the big ones and really small ones

56:07Rob Dawson:i think it's a it's a it's multiple things we've also got so many new products that like are very good as well that that um are a bit bigger our best seller now is it is another shin pad that's that's inbuilt and it's not a mini shin pad it's like the padding is is like a of a decent size it's all inbuilt it's for the footballer feels comfortable so it's the same kind of thing but while having a bigger shin pad um and yeah we it's not that we've really moved away from it i think yeah like this there's there's certain players who always want that that kind of product and they they'll buy it but i don't think it says like a a huge viral thing anymore for people to be buying the the mini shimp pads and yeah for us as well for our kids section drug of stars we are completely removing all mini shimp pads and we're actually for uh from next season so july when we start like our pre-season campaign we're bringing out a new um ce certified shimp pad for kids that's all inbuilt and it's gone through testing process that took literally like over a year to to get done um so for kids we definitely do think yeah we need to shift away from it um because obviously they don't make the the decisions and they can't make those decisions themselves and i guess that

57:25Mark Ogden:obviously young kids will copy what their the favorite players are wearing and i guess the one that kind of caught my attention was marcus edwards at burnley he wasn't wearing shin pads it was it could best be described as a very tiny piece of physio's phone and i guess you wouldn't encourage players to wear shin pads as small as that no that's that is also that's the reason why we started the brand like i said at the start like literally like in you i don't think people

57:47Rob Dawson:understand how common that was before we made jogger and jogger went like really big and how people have been wearing maybe ashen pads and instead of that like it was very very common um in yeah across the the the pro game also the non-league game like it was it was huge um so yeah we've kind of i think uh what one thing you mentioned about sports here you know for the piece I've written is that players, I wouldn't say they're happy to take the risk,

58:15Mark Ogden:but it's because they want to be light on the pitch. I mean, I went to the Football Museum in Manchester recently just to kind of get a look at how shin pads have evolved. And there's a model called the Umbro Armadillo. And I'm looking at it right now, and the shin pad looks like something Robocop would wear. And he's got ankle pads as well. And you just don't see footballers wearing those anymore. Ankle pads in Robocop style, probably 12-inch shin pad. I mean, I can see the extreme. if you're a young player now you want you don't want to be wearing those do you because they're

58:42Rob Dawson:too heavy yeah that's that that's again why we made them we felt we felt ourselves like and all footballers have the same thing they they hate wearing shin pads because they train all week not wearing shin pads at also high intensity by the way as well like even as high as a game most of the time especially in the program and they're not wearing shin pads and then they have to strap on a big bulky shin pad when they when they play like it's it doesn't really make sense and they don't enjoy it, I don't think. So yeah, it's clear to see why it's picked up so much traction.

59:15Mark Ogden:I think as well, people probably don't understand as well, it was two years ago that FIFA changed the rules. So I think in 2024, FIFA changed the rules whereby previously the referee or the match officials had to insist on players wearing shin pads. But because there were a couple of instances where players were getting injured in lower leagues or non-leagues where they were getting injured and then taking action against referees for not policing the rules enough so the FIFA have now changed it whereby it's on the players and the clubs to ensure they have proper protection I think since then we've seen shin pads go smaller so I think I've just got a pair of your your kind of the sleeve shin pads now I mean there's probably an iPad sorry an iPhone size shin pad that protects the shin which is is much bigger than I think that certainly

59:52Rob Dawson:the Marcus Edwards padding that you were talking about yeah yeah like yeah that that that to like me and to probably a lot of other footballers is like that's a good size shin pad now like no No one is wearing those big old clunky kind of shin pad, like literally no one. It's like the equivalent of wearing boots from the 1960s and 70s and they're leather and they're soaking up the water and you can't play as well. It's just, I think, how the game's kind of evolved.

1:00:23Mark Ogden:I saw that Lewis Holtby was the ex-Tottenham and Germany midfielder who was playing for NEC Breda in the Netherlands recently and a couple of weeks ago actually, and he suffered a really bad injury. And after the game, it was a big gash on his shin. People were criticizing him for not wearing shin pads. He was wearing shin pads, but not big shin pads. So again, I suppose your pads are protective. The little tiny pieces of physio foam, they're not. And that's the thing is that players might feel light, but they're not being protected by wearing that sort of product. Or not even a product, it's just fabric, isn't it?

1:00:56Rob Dawson:Yeah, so at least then when they've switched to R. so is the people who have switched our mini shin pads are just the ones who used to wear that piece of material so what i think is that at least they've now got like a bit of protection and they still feel light and they feel like this is like this this can do for them um but yeah that injury was obviously yeah it wasn't good i hope he recovers uh hope he recovers well um but again i think it also comes down to what you said earlier about the fa changing their rules is like these are grown men like they can make their own decisions which is why i think Like it's been really key in us having to change what we're doing for the kids section of the brand.

1:01:34Rob Dawson:Because obviously the kids can't make those kind of decisions. But for an adult, for a pro player, like fine. If you don't want to wear our tinier shin pads, don't wear them. We have other shin pads available. Other brands have other shin pads available. We have big ones, small ones, medium. Like we have anything you want. So I think it's, yeah, the player's decision at the end of the day.

1:01:54Mark Ogden:I think Jack really swears you're really small shin pads, doesn't he?

1:01:57Rob Dawson:yeah the breathe shin pads yeah yeah i think they're the 10 centimeters by six or something like that yeah yeah yeah he asked uh actually a lot of them um asked the man city kit man for for our shin pad so then uh he reached out to me and then we we sent them a load so quite a lot of the city players actually wear them but it's also not all the small ones like even um mateos Nunez um wears uh I think the 14 by 7 which is more of a standard Chimpad uh size um so he wears

1:02:28Mark Ogden:them and a couple of other boys are are wearing them as well so Grealish is uh is a player that I'd imagine that lots of kids would try and cop it yeah yeah yeah you would say yeah but you're saying that the that you're manufacturing the smart the bigger ones for kids and as you know the kids aren't having the really tiny ones yeah so we have two websites and we split it

1:02:49Rob Dawson:split it completely so jogger is for the adults and all our marketing and advertising is to the adults and then we have jogger stars which is the kids section of the brand uh where you can't get those those products and that that's where we're talking to the parents we're also doing marketing to the kids as well like with influencers that the kids are watching on youtube and and all this kind of stuff so all the marketing for that wouldn't be around uh around many shin pads

1:03:17Mark Ogden:just one last question is that do you expect the world cup to have a big kind of impact on trends this summer because obviously it's the biggest show on earth in terms of football a lot of players now wearing these really tiny shin pads you think it's going to be a tournament which we see that the the trend go to even smaller shin pads i think we've reached the kind of the bottom

1:03:33Rob Dawson:of the size situation now yeah i don't think there's really any need to to go really smaller than it is of our smallest ones, which are basically 10 centimetres now. As a footballer, there's no need. It's kind of then just, I don't know, you're trying to show off or do something if you're wearing anything really smaller than that because those are extremely light. You don't feel them. So, yeah, I think it will definitely carry on. I think a lot of the players in the World Cup will be wearing our shin pads or shin pads like ours, the smaller ones, because that's just how footballers are and what they want.

1:04:13Rob Dawson:If they wanted to wear the big bulky shin pads, I'm sure they would.

1:04:18Mark Ogden:Listen, thanks for your time, Zach. It's been really interesting to talk about these trending shin pads and how they're getting smaller. But we're going to be back next week. We're going to be talking about the FA Cup semifinals on another big weekend in English football and beyond.

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