The Football Reporters: Tottenham turns toxic for Thomas Frank

24:52Losing those three players is going to be catastrophic, really, for Man United. Because as you say, they just haven't got the players to come in to do those jobs. I think that Amriem will hope that by then maybe the team is a little bit more stable, that the results have stabilised a little bit and he can maybe get away with bringing other players in. But the drop-off from losing Mwemo and Ahmad in particular will really, really hit Man United. And it's possible that they are going to, and I said on the last pod, that they're going to have bad results anyway, regardless of the players that are in the team.

25:26But if you take two of your best players out in a really stressful period of fixture list in December, where there are games coming thick and fast. I think it's going to be really, really tough for Man United. OK, time for a break. But when we come back, we're going to talk about UEFA's difficulties in finding cities and stadiums willing to host the Champions League final. So your team just got knocked out of the FIFA World Cup. Brutal, right? Well, the good news is you're not done. It's time to jump on the Leeds bandwagon and nobody loses on the bandwagon. No upsets, no heartbreak, no stress.

25:57only good times. So join Leys on the bandwagon. Grab a bag of Leys. Get ready for the next match. Cheer for whoever you want. Leys keeps the party going. Leys' official sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 2026.

26:14So Mark, you're writing a piece about the Champions League final and the destinations for it. There have been some issues around finding cities who are willing to host it, even though it's obviously quite a prestigious event. What are the issues are ongoing and are we at the start of a journey that might lead us to a Champions League final in the US or Saudi Arabia possibly? Well I mean right now I think the public stands from UEFA is that no they're happy to keep it within Europe but the situation is they're running out of cities to host the final. Now they announced last week that the 2028 and 2029 hosting bidding process and 2028 has got one bidder Munich and Munich had the Champions League final this year so basically in the space of three years the Allianz Arena will host two Champions League finals the year after that 2029 Wembley has announced itself to be a bidder and Barcelona's new Camp Nou and I'd imagine it'll go to the Camp Nou because it's 30 years since the last Champions League final but still you know Wembley is always there thereabouts and I've been speaking to somebody about this and they're saying that UEFA and they're basically down to four or five venues that they can rely upon that can do it because it's not just about of stage in the game the champions league final it's first of all you need a stadium that can host at least 65 000 fans so that rules a lot of stadiums out but it's also about you know infrastructure you know airports can fans get there and back can they get in and out of the city hotel space can they actually find a place to stay as we we all know but i've met the champions league finals it costs an absolute fortune to stay in these cities you have to stay miles out of town so you need a city that's got the ability to host the event you've got two cities in russia muscow St.

27:48Petersburg are off the rotor. You've got Paris, which again is unlikely to be considered for a good while yet because of what happened in 2022 with the Liverpool fans. Rome seems to have dropped off the rotor as well because it's deemed as being an outdated stadium now. Infrastructure in the Italian capital is not great. So you're basically looking at Wembley, Munich. I think the other one is Barcelona and Atletico Madrid. The Bernabeu Stadium is obviously an amazing stadium, but I don't think Real, their relationship with UEFA right now is at a point where they would get a Champions League final.

28:17So if you've only got four stadiums on rotation, obviously Budapest is hosting the final at the end of this season, but I've been told they're going to really struggle again. One airport, hotel space is going to be difficult. So will it get to the point where it could be in the US? Alexander Chaffer said last year that it's something that's on their thought process. It'd be hard to sell, but I think it's inevitable at some point that a New York or a Dallas or a Los Angeles will want to host a Champions League final because all of the issues that UEFA face in Europe about stadium size, infrastructure, they're not an issue in the US.

28:49I don't know what you guys think, but I think maybe in the next 10 years we'll see a Champions League final outside of Europe. I think it's disgusting that the profiteering that goes on around the final every year and the fact that the way that even the draws are done now, the delay between knowing that obviously there's a fixed date for the Champions League final, But for the knockout rounds and even for the group stages, we know the match weeks, but we don't know the days. And the days now take, you know, what, 48 hours sometimes for it to be confirmed. And by that stage, suddenly all the hotels are three times as much as they would have been otherwise.

29:29All the flights are a lot more expensive. I mean, wherever they hold it, somebody should be looking at that part of the process as well. that it's always the fans of the two teams involved that are getting turned over by the methodology through which they select these cities. And that should be part of it. I mean, my view is that a European competition should be settled on European soil. Why are you taking it elsewhere? I don't know whether maybe they could do, just thinking about tennis, you know, the men's tour finals, had a residency for a number of years. I mean, they had it in London, they've had it in Shanghai, they've had it in Italy as well.

30:13Do you think there's a scenario where they could say, okay, for the next three years, Wembley has the Champions League final. And then after that, we go to Munich for three years. And actually, you sort of fix it so that everybody kind of knows way ahead of time. And then actually, you could control a lot of this profiteering that goes on because you know it from three years out. if UEFA were able to they would have it at Wembley forever because first of all it's a neutral venue so you're not going to have a situation like in Munich or in Madrid where you could have the host team or Barcelona hosting their final secondly three, four airports in and around London which can host the incoming fans, loads of hotels it's a global city and Wembley holds 90 ,000 fans almost 20 ,000 VIP facilities so it is the perfect venue for UEFA they love having it at Wembley because of all those reasons but you know possibly but I think obviously Munich would be happy about that Madrid Barcelona would not be happy about every Champions League final being in in London but there is an argument for that there's an argument you could say those four cities that you spoke about have it on rotation over the next 20 years because you know yes Barcelona and yes Real Madrid might get to a final but still that can happen now you know Bayern Munich had played a Champions League final at home they lost to Chelsea in in 2012 so it's possible but you know they are running out of cities that can host it and we've all been i think james me and you were in in paris for the champions league finally 2022 it was chaos wasn't it it was absolutely yeah paris one of the again a global city but hotels were ridiculously expensive the infrastructure was a joke and the stadium just not fit for purpose but if you can't hold the champions league finally in paris what chance have you got because yeah but there's i mean there's a unique set of circumstances to that particular stadium i would say and and it didn't i i don't know if you felt the same way.

31:58I've done games there before and left and not felt safe. Trying to go from the station, sorry, from the stadium to the station or waiting for a taxi. I think that's a unique situation with that particular stadium, but I don't know. It's going to end up in Saudi Arabia, isn't it? It's going to end up in the middle. It will just go to the highest bidder. I was on a tour with United a couple of years ago where we had a briefing with the governor of New Jersey, he was there talking to us about the World Cup. But the subject got on to Champions League games and he said that him and his team would push really hard for meaningful Champions League games, whether it's group games or knockout games or obviously the final, they would push quite hard to host that.

32:43I did a trip to Saudi Arabia to see Ronaldo when he first played for Al Nasser. And while I was there, the Italian Super Cup was there at the same time and the week after, they were going to have the Spanish Super Cup. I'm amazed that the Community Shield hasn't been moved away from Wembley to Saudi Arabia or the Middle East or America. You've got a situation with La Liga where that Barcelona-Villa Real game was going to get held in Miami before there was protest. It's obviously where the game is headed. And when you have these kind of big, prestigious showpiece events, the likes of the FA Cup final or the Champions League final, when they're meant to be held at neutral venues anyway and you don't have two set teams in it, I think it's quite easy to move that game to Abu Dhabi or Dubai or Saudi somewhere because it's not like moving a Premier League game.

33:35Because if you tried to do that, there would be absolute outcry. The home fans would say it's not fair. The away team wouldn't want to travel. I think if you could move the Champions League final, I'm not saying it'll be done in a year or two, but in 10 years' time, if you just say, well, we haven't got enough bidders for this game, so we're going to take it to Riyadh where they do want it, I think it's the kind of situation that you can envisage. I think probably we're all just going to have to get used to it because it is going to happen. I think the point you made there about the La Liga game in Miami, which has now been called off the Barcelona-Villa Real game, UEFA reluctantly gave that the green light as well as an Italian game in Australia.

34:12For me, UEFA reluctantly giving those a green light was basically them just making sure they've got a kind of a fallback option. If they suddenly decide to play Champions League final abroad, they basically almost paved the way for it to happen. So interesting times ahead. Okay, we'll wrap up this section. And next, we're talking about players who struggle to come back from lengthy injury layoffs. Ken Marcotti here for Gusto. Right now, everyone is trying to run leaner, tighter budgets, smaller teams, higher expectations. Now, the last thing you have time to waste on is manual payroll or chasing down an HR form.

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35:48Well Rob you've written about Rodri and his stop start return from his ACL injury we saw him for a quick as a flash cameo against Bournemouth where is he at the moment and and given City are obviously trailing Arsenal in the league how much pressure is he under to not only come back but come back as the linchpin that makes the whole thing tick for City. Yeah, I mean, in terms of his recovery, you kind of get the impression that he's quite frustrated, really, because obviously he did his ACL against Arsenal more than a year ago. He's had an operation. He's kind of gone through that long road to recovery, spent the first part of it in Madrid, and then he's come back to City.

36:35You start training in the gym, and then you're back on the grass, and then in April he comes and is part of the squad again, starts his first game in the Club World Cup in June. And then there's this kind of assumption that once you've gone through all that, that you're back and then you're right as rain. And it's not really been like that for him. He's played occasionally this season. He's started games. He started three really intense games in a row against Man United, Napoli and Arsenal. Afterwards, Guardiola said, I'm not really sure whether he's in a position where he can do that week after week.

37:06He's then had a hamstring injury. He's missed four games. He came back against Bournemouth at the weekend. So, I mean, the piece that's on the site is essentially just about how tough it is for these players to come back because it's not just those sort of long days and long months spent in the medical room on your own, you know, kind of staring out the window, looking at your mate's train. It's actually when you come back and how tough it is in that instance as well, because we're in a period now, and Pep has kind of said it himself a little bit, where Rodri, all of his physical metrics when he's fit might be right there.

37:37You know, he's covering the same amount of ground. His sprints are there, the number of sprints. But there's an awful lot that goes on in a player's head in that kind of situation where he's got to kind of feel comfortable in his own body. He's got to feel comfortable twisting and turning into challenges, you know, that kind of thing. And I was in Monaco watching City a couple of weeks ago where they drew in the Champions League and Rodri started that game. In the second half, he gets quite a significant knock in the second half and goes down. And you can see immediately he looks a bit panicked, that his teammates look a bit panicked.

38:09In the end, the City saw physios come on and he carries on for five or ten minutes. But you can see in that life of five or ten minutes that he's not really himself. I don't know whether it's his confidence he's knocked or he's a bit worried about having a knock on his knee again. He gets the ball taken off him at one point and Monaco break quite quickly. And then five minutes after that, he's taken off by Pep Guardiola, who brings, I think, Nico Gonzalez on to kind of shore up the midfield. And really the piece that's on the side is essentially around that. And it's difficult for him and it's difficult for Pep because he's obviously, like you mentioned there, such a massive part of the team that they want him back as quickly as possible and in the best form that they can get him in.

38:49And it's just not as easy as that. And we're in this little kind of awkward phase now where they're trying to ease him back in, but they also need him desperately. I think part of the problem is the fact that City are obviously having a few collective issues and they're in a state of flux themselves. I mean, he's not coming back into a settled side. It's a lot easier for players, you know, when they've been out for a while to come back into a team that's winning, knows its patterns of play, that is sort of settled in terms of personnel. It feels as though it's doubly difficult for him because City is still trying to work out exactly what kind of team they are.

39:26Yeah, and that is part of it. And, you know, he had all this kind of rehabilitation last season where City obviously sort of form-wise fell off a cliff. And every sort of week towards the end of last season, the question to Pep was, when's Rodri coming back? When's Rodri coming back? Because if he's at this cure to every problem that they have, and you're right, you know, this season has been better than last season, but it's not been perfect. It's been quite mixed. They've been good in games. They've been poor in other games. And there's still this kind of narrative around City that they need Rodri to play well.

39:57And there is, you know, that part of that is true because he's so important, but there isn't any kind of, there's no way of easing him back in because City need him. You know, it's not, if they were winning sort of every week and they'd won 10 on the bounce, you know, the need for Rodri to be in there wouldn't be as great. And you could say to him, well, you know, maybe take an extra week to get yourself right. Maybe you sit on the bench for two or three weeks and we play you five minutes here, 10 minutes there, then 15 minutes and we build you back up. Guardiola hasn't really had that luxury.

40:31And even though he said repeatedly that they're going to be really, really cautious with him and they want to make sure that he gets back to his best and they don't want to rush him because they know if he breaks down again, that could have serious consequences for his career. You always feel like right at the end when he's kind of, Rodri's right there. And I'm sure there's an element of Rodri sort of saying, I want to play. And Pep has touched on that a little bit in the past. But you kind of feel that he gets to kind of that level and Guardiola kind of can't help himself but to chuck him back in because he just knows that he's so important and he's so integral to what City are trying to do.

41:04I mean, you mentioned sort of Rodri's view on this. I mean, he's obviously one of the players who's spoken out publicly about the fixture scheduling and suggesting that the players could be quite close to striking. and obviously he's very conscious of that whole kind of workload conversation. I mean, do you sense any hesitancy in him that as he's come over, you know, he's come over obviously a very serious injury trying to recover from it, that he doesn't want to be rushed himself because he knows what a big year this is with the World Cup at the end of it, you know, and then obviously into the following season where there won't be much of a break because it's an expanded World Cup.

41:43But do you feel that he's conscious of that wider debate as much as he is of his own situation? I imagine he is because he's a really, really intelligent guy. I mean, we've spoken to him in press conferences and mixed zones. You can tell that he's very, very switched on to issues outside of his own and outside of his own club. And you say, you're right, he's spoken, probably one of the major voices last year, about fixture congestion and what it was doing to players. I think it's quite difficult though for Rodri because he will understand that his body probably can't get through a 10-month season unscathed with a massive World Cup at the end of it.

42:24But also, and it's something that Guardiola has touched on, that I think that footballers inherently just want to play. And so while Rodri will take advice from all City's medical staff and the physios about you need to build up and we can't rush you back too soon and you might feel great now, but we need to wait till the morning to decide whether you can play at the weekend. And I'm sure that Rodri is the type of player that will take all of that on board and will go away and be really quite considered. I think when Pat Guardiola has got his little tactics board up in the dressing room that he wants to see his name up there because he's just desperate to play, particularly after missing so much of last season.

43:02So it's a difficult situation for Rodri because he won't want to push himself, but he also wants to play. It's a difficult situation for Guardiola as well because he doesn't want to risk the health and the future of one of his best players, if not his most influential player next to Erling Haaland, but also knows that if City want to challenge Arsenal for the title, want to get quite far in the Champions League, as good as Nico Gonzalez is and Kovacic when he comes in and Reinders can play there, you can't replace Rodri. So it's really tough finding that balance. And essentially that is what the piece on the site is all about, finding that balance for these top players and making sure that they can play and be the influence that they always have been, but also not risking Rodri for the long term.

43:49And that, you know, as great a player as he is now, that you're kind of risking the next three, four, five years of his career because you want to get him back right this second. I mean, you mentioned Arsenal there, and obviously everyone's talking about their squad depth at the moment. And it's sort of interesting, this debate, actually, because, you know, if you look at even the Burnley game last weekend, there's a definite shift this season in the way that Arteta's managing his players. Jokerez says he has his best 45 minutes in an Arsenal shirt. He comes off at half-time because he's felt something.

44:24Martins Zubimendi, one of the signings of the season, stitches the whole thing together. Not unlike Rodri, of course, for City. He feels something. He's taken off at half-time. A couple of weeks ago, Bukayo Saka, they're only 1-0 up against Palace. He comes off after an hour because he wasn't able to train in the build-up to the game. he felt a bit of sickness. These sort of decisions that he's made, I think he took Saliba off at halftime in that game as well. Again, he felt something. He's coming straight off. And in the past, Arsenal, I think, have been guilty of maybe pushing their players or their players have wanted to push themselves a little bit too much because the squad depth hasn't been there and they've needed to take those risks to try and keep pace with City and Liverpool.

45:08And it feels a bit this season as though what Arteta and Arsenal are doing now is being a bit cleverer, a bit cuter, and managing that squad better because they feel they've got stronger options. You know, we're talking about an Arsenal team that was obviously clear at the top of the table and they're missing their captain, Martin Odegaard, who up until this season was widely regarded as the guy who stitches all their attacking play together. You know, and of course, now they've got Eberichieze who can come in, they've got Ethan Lognieri who can come in in those central positions. They can play Mikel Moreno in there with Declan Rice with Zubimendi as a three, they've got so many different kind of options that I think because they were overusing, particularly Odegaard and Saka in the last couple of years, that were leading to these injuries.

45:56You look at Kai Havertz, obviously he's out at the moment. I remember sitting in a press conference with Arteta where he described Havertz as a genetic powerhouse about two weeks before he got injured and was ruled out for the rest of the season. And what he was trying to do was sort of say, it's all right, these guys can take the load. But I think in the summer, by signing all the players they have, they've looked at and gone actually to compete in four competitions. This is no criticism of those individuals. It's just to compete in four competitions. We just need more than what we currently have.

46:24Do you think he'll be able to do that and continue to be as cautious the closer Arsenal maybe get towards the end of the season where that big prize, the Premier League or the Champions League is in sight? And you've got players like Odegaard, maybe Saka, who are kind of on the verge or just coming back from injuries, because it's one thing being able to do it in October and November, I guess, and another thing having that same caution in March and April when you can really kind of see what's in front of you a little bit. Well, I mean, that will be the temptation, won't it? At the moment, they're winning every week.

46:58They're still in the four competitions. They're in a strong position in Europe, which means he could rotate a little bit more towards the end of the group stage if they've qualified, which you assume they will have with a game or two to spare. the FA Cup obviously kicks in in January. There are enough games to rotate and keep everyone happy. I think that's an aspect of it as well, is that it's all well and good having this big squad. But if they were to get knocked out of a couple of competitions, you'd start to think, well, there's going to be big players there on not inconsiderable salaries who are getting 10, 20 minutes at best at the end of a Premier League game.

47:33And that becomes an issue for them. But it's a problem that they want to have. is the reason why they've built the squad the way they have. And I think what they'll feel is that in rotating Saka, obviously Odegaard, that's been enforced because of his injury, but in rotating those players a bit more now, he'll feel as though in March and April, he can push them a bit further because there are fewer games in their legs. It's a little bit less of a risk. One other thing that just came to my mind actually was, I sat in a briefing last season with a doctor at a Premier League club. It was all a bit impromptu, but they wanted to sort of explain about how the rise of Achilles injuries was explainable through the data.

48:16And he talked us through how every Achilles, basically, if you have an Achilles problem or your Achilles flares up at all, you need a minimum of 72 hours for that to calm down before you can train the muscle again. And I thought it was really interesting because obviously 72 hours is three days. And at the moment, you know, teams are playing every three days. And after this international break, we'll play for every three days until March, pretty much. And it just shows you how much the fixture calendar is contributing to a lot of these problems. That if the doctors are saying you need 72 hours before you can train this muscle again, and obviously to train the muscle, you then make the muscle stronger and you make it less susceptible to injury.

48:59If all you're doing is maintaining a sort of level of Achilles fitness, if you like, well, you're risking injury as the season goes on because you're not able to train that muscle and build it up and make it more immune to the demands. And, you know, I think it's a really good example of how the fixture list is just compounding the problem. Yeah, I mean, there's a situation with Palace, I think, coming up where they possibly might have to play Sunday, Tuesday. City did it last year. They played a game Sunday. They played a cup tag, I think, on Tuesday. Obviously, lots of the players were changed.

49:34But it does feel like we're getting away from that, at least having three days between games. And it seems to be more and more common now that the teams are being asked to play Sunday, Tuesday. So instead of actually fixing the problem, it seems to be getting worse. And you're talking there about 72 hours to rest a muscle. there is a possibility that next season we could see that reduced even further because there's just so many games to get into such a short space of time. Palace at the moment are facing in December three games in five days. It's incredible. Huge injury risk for all concerned.

50:14I'm sure that topic is going to run and run but thanks for that Rob and thanks to everyone for joining us this week. We'll be back again with another Football Reporter soon.

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