The Football Reporters: Will Fernandes & Isak injuries spark January moves?

17:15Rob Dawson:They were missing quite a few. Again, Sir Bozlai is now going to be suspended. I know we're going to talk about Isak in a minute. Cody Gakpo's out. They've got a few that they're missing that would strengthen that starting line-up. But it was the absence of that maturity to just close a game like that out, which is 11 against 9, is fairly straightforward, is keep the ball. And they just kept giving it away and making wrong decisions and really just giving Spurs the opportunity to rally in a way that actually would have helped Thomas Frank because I've been at Spurs home games where they've been quite negative towards the manager and they weren't.

17:51Rob Dawson:They stayed with the team and that, I think, was filled by a sense of injustice they felt around the red cards but also the fact that they rallied so well right at the end.

18:00James Olley:Mark, where do you sit on Liverpool? I know in our game that we love to talk about momentum and turning points and all that kind of thing. I think it's six unbeaten now for Arnestlott's team. Do you see that they've turned a corner or is this just going to be a season where it's a couple of good results, a couple of setbacks and then back again?

18:18Mark Ogden:I've got a funny feeling about Liverpool. I think they are the one team that could actually mount a surge in the second half of the season, although the ESAC situation isn't going to help them and James is right, they've got a couple of injuries. But I was watching the Newcastle-Chelsea game on Saturday lunchtime and Newcastle were 2-0 ahead at the time. I'm thinking, you know, Chelsea dropping back and I looked at the actual betting odds to win the Premier League and Liverpool were 33-1 and I thought, they're only 10 points behind Arsenal. And this is a strange season in the sense that...

18:46Rob Dawson:Just where the Ogden millions are going. Yeah, exactly.

18:48Mark Ogden:Just you watch. I held back, obviously. But it's a weird season. I think Liverpool have got some great firepower. But again, the caveat is Isak's situation. The Salah situation, we don't know how that's going to play out. I mean, Salah may not come back. He may move on, obviously. If Isak's out for a while with this suspected broken leg, then it changes everything. So there's a lot of big questions about Liverpool in the air, but I do think that even though they've got problems at the back, they still have that ability to beat teams. We asked before about why Man Utd look at Antoine Semenya, because teams want players who can score goals.

19:22Mark Ogden:And Liverpool have got goals in that team all over the place. So that's why I think that they could. I think they'll qualify for the Champions League. I think they'll have no issue qualifying finishing the top four. I know it sounds strange at the moment, but Liverpool, for me, are definitely going to finish top four. But they have issues to address, and I think they need to know the situation that Isak Helene is going to be out and does that impact on the Salah situation. So that's a massive scenario for Arnish to deal with or the club to deal with. They may have decided on Salah last week. They may have thought, well, Salah's heads away and there's a chance of getting rid of him in January to Saudi Arabia.

19:54But if Isak's out for two, three, four, five months,

19:58Mark Ogden:they can't let Salah go. So a lot depends on that. But ultimately, I don't think you can rule Liverpool out of a top four finish. And I think still, because I saw Arsenal Everton at the weekend, not very impressive at all. City, I've been impressive recently, but it all depends on early Haaland. I don't think Villa will stay the course. So I still think Liverpool, as crazy as it sounds, have an outside chance of winning the league, but it's a very outside chance we'll finish top four. But, you know, let's wait and see. The millions aren't going on the 32-1 just yet. But, I mean, listen, it was a strange, strange game.

20:30Mark Ogden:I said this before, but from a Tottenham perspective, James, actually, before we go on Tottenham, let's talk about Isak because that is the big situation right now it sounds like he's got a suspected broken leg I watched that at the time as soon as he scored the goal the reaction on his face was that he'd done a bad injury how Mickey van der Ven got away with that even being you know, cost that was such a bad tackle I mean, he wrapped his legs around Isak's ankle at the end that's a red card for me he should have been sent off he should have been down to eight men

20:57Rob Dawson:Yeah, I agree I mean, it's one of those where it just got lost in the goal didn't it? Just sort of lost in the moment. Anywhere else on the pitch, I think he goes for that. And I think it's probably why Spurs can't really, I know two wrongs don't make a right, but I think it's why Spurs can't really have any complaints about the officiating. The only decision that they probably were justified in arguing was the Eketike second goal. I think that is a foul on Cristian Romero. But yeah, I mean, look, on Isak, you have to feel for him. I mean, it felt like such a big moment for Liverpool. Florian Vert's first assist in the Premier League, combining with Isak to score a great finish.

21:38Rob Dawson:You sort of think, OK, this is the first real glimpse of the two mega-money signings combining. And obviously, with Al Salah on the pitch, you start to think, well, this is the future of Liverpool finally being realised. And then, of course, in the same action, he picks up that bad injury. I mean, being in the stadium, and we were sort of more or less parallel with where it happened, actually, it was a little strange that the stretcher came on, looked for all the world like he was going to use the stretcher, but then he kind of insisted on not using the stretcher and then was helped off with a member of Arnestot's backroom staff sort of under each arm and helping him off that way.

22:17Rob Dawson:But you do sort of think, you know, if this is a suspected broken leg, and as you say, the look on his face, he knew straight away something bad had happened. Why not go on the stretcher? So you're just risking further damage there. But yeah, I mean, sympathy really for Isak because he's had such a stop-start time to his Liverpool career. He obviously had no pre-season. He's already had, I think it was a groin injury that sidelined him. So yeah, I mean, if he is out for a while and it looks like he will be, then it's more pressure on Eketike, isn't it, to try and lead the line in his absence.

22:53Mark Ogden:I think that goal showed just why Liverpool were so keen to sign Isak It was a brilliant finish. It was a world-class striker's finish. And I think we're going to chat about Victor Jokeres in the moment. But I just want to kind of look at the three big summer signs were Jokeres, Sesko and Isak. Isak's had a very difficult season where he is the quality striker in that bracket. Sesko's really struggling at Man United. He looks too slow for the Premier League. I saw Jokeres at Everton again. Not that impressive, but that's the big blow for Liverpool that just when their big guy scores a classic striker's goal, he gets injured.

23:22Mark Ogden:And we don't know how long he's going to be out for. So you can see why their situation is up in the air. But I do agree with you, James. That verts past to reset, that for me is Liverpool post more Salah, isn't it? That's what they brought these players in to kind of evolve. And in that moment, Salah was closer to the A-sick door, but 10 seconds later, he's back from the door. So we're off to wait and see what plays. I mean, Rob, do you think this brings Salah back or is it a case if it's too quick to make that assumption?

23:49James Olley:I mean, to be honest, when I saw that stuff that he said after Leeds, I thought there's no way back for him. I know that it all, I'm always reminded of you being on this pod saying there is always a way back for players. I think you've used the example of Carlos Tevez at City under Mancini, where everyone thought there was no way back for him and he ended up coming back and helping City win the title. So there is clearly always a way back for players. It seems to have been smoothed over a little bit between Arnazlott and Salah. I think Arnazlott deserves an awful lot of credit for the way that he's handled that because he's been so calm and so professional in the news conferences that I've seen.

24:24The one in Milan was particularly impressive,

24:27James Olley:just the way that he kind of navigated all that. He took every single question. He didn't try and shut it down. I've seen managers get really annoyed when there's been a line of questioning like that. And he doesn't do him any favours, but Arnestlott was so composed all the way through. And I think partly the way that he's handled that has kind of helped smooth it over with Salah. Now there is a situation, if Isak's going to be out for months, four, five, six months, Salah is going to have to come back and play a significant role for Liverpool in the second half of the season and he's only going to be as good as his relationship with the manager and the fact that Arna Slott has looked to defuse that as quickly as possible I think it probably helps that Salah has gone to AFCON, calms down a little bit there's a little bit of distance regains some form playing for Egypt where he's the main man with the fans and also with his teammates Liverpool will hope, I'm assuming that he'll come back revitalised and ready to play what should be a key role for Liverpool in the second half of the season if they're not going to be with the ESAC.

25:24James Olley:And you've also got issues around the consistency of Eketike, of Verts. The one guy who has shown that he can be really consistent in the Premier League time and time again is Mo Salah. He's the guy that they need really to build the second half of the season around.

25:39Rob Dawson:I get all of that and you are probably right. There's a cynical part of me that just thinks that Liverpool had to play it this way. Because there's only one place that Mo Salah is going to go, and that's Saudi Arabia. Obviously, we can debate which club, but he's going to go to the Saudi Pro League eventually. And if the situation had been allowed to just completely deteriorate, then his market value is hugely diminished. But if they can create an environment in which it looks as though there is a route to keeping Salah and reviving his career, then suddenly his price is a little bit higher than it would have been otherwise.

26:21Rob Dawson:And the Saudis will film even more of a coup to the Saudis that they're getting him. Oh, and there's a bit of doubt about whether he can continue his career and does he want to stay? Does Arsenal really want to keep him? And all that. If that conversation is going on, then it just looks a little bit more of a coup for the Saudis to then go and get him in January or next summer. I just sort of refuse to believe. I get everything you said there, Rob. I just sort of think they had no choice but to do what they're doing and to sort of suggest that everything's fine. But, you know, it's difficult to overlook exactly what Mo Salah's done there.

26:57Rob Dawson:He has looked to undermine his manager at a point at which he was not maybe most vulnerable, but certainly under the pump. And that is hard to forgive. and his teammates will know exactly what has been going on there. And yes, I'm not saying it's an irretrievable situation, but I still think if the Saudis came in with a big offer in January, a big number, and they'll be encouraged to make that number a little bit higher because of the response that Liverpool have had to this, then it suits a lot of people if he goes.

27:32Mark Ogden:Well, the good news for Liverpool is that their next game is Wolves at home. So all the problems might be mounting, but they've got Wolves at home next. So that's a positive. Anyway, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and talk about Victor Jokeres and his time at Arsenal so far.

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28:23Mark Ogden:So I was at Everton against Arsenal the weekend. Big win for Arsenal, 1-0 after Man City had gone top briefly by beating West Ham at the Etihad. So it was a big moment for Arsenal to prove their mettle, I guess, in the title race. And also a big moment for Victor Jokic, who scored the winning goal. So from the penalty spot, that was his first goal since the beginning of November. Now, obviously, he was Arsenal's big summer sign. The guy that was signed to score the goals to win the Premier League title hasn't quite done that yet. So, James, you wrote about Jokeres last week. And I think it's fair to say that there's one or two doubts about Jokeres' time so far at Arsenal, shall we say.

28:55Rob Dawson:Yeah, there are. And I think it might be time to just look at him a little bit differently. you know he was he was billed as the man who was going to come in to score the goals to win the Premier League that that you know he was the big nine he was the man Mikel Arteta played up to this I was on their tour pre-season tour to Singapore and Hong Kong and they were talking a lot about this guy's got the aura he's the man you know we've not had a proper number nine for years here he is you know the big man's in town it was that it was all about him and it was all about how they were going to slightly change the way they play.

29:32Rob Dawson:They were going to be more direct. They acknowledged that he is not a player who's going to come link the play like Havertz or Mikel Marino as he's been playing in that sort of makeshift striker's role. This is a guy who plays on the shoulder of the last defender. He needs the ball in behind. He plays in the width of the penalty box, no wider. Don't think about channels, all of that. This is who he is and we will change to accommodate him. And I think where Arsenal are at the moment is they're caught between the team they were planning to be in pre-season and the team they were last season. And the team they were last season had, particularly in the second half of the season because of the injuries, they had Marino up front.

30:13Rob Dawson:They had that guy who was linking the play and would bring the other attackers into it. and when they've tried to play with Jokeres as their nine and be more direct and try and be this sort of new version of Arsenal, it hasn't worked and there's a number of reasons for that. Jokeres has not had a great pre-season, he's just not been informed himself, a team has not been playing particularly well and they've not really had that sort of attacking cohesion and that rhythm them in the final third. And so because Jocares, of course, has also picked up an injury, they've kind of had to go back to Marino with Havertz being out.

30:51Rob Dawson:Gambrillo Jesus has taken a long time to come back from his injury. He's obviously back in the squad now. They've sort of got themselves to the top of the league and then got clear at the top of the league, playing as they had done last season by accident rather than design. And now everybody's fit again. You know, Jesus is back. Havertz is back in the next couple of weeks. Mikel Moreno is obviously available along with Jocares. This is the point at which they have to make a decision. Are they going to continue to try and see this through and risk being at the top of the table? Or are they going to think, do you know what?

31:23Rob Dawson:We're going to do what's got us here, and that's not to have Jochores as the main man who everything goes through.

31:29Mark Ogden:Can I just play the case of the defence of Jochores a little bit? Now, everyone talks about Alexander Eastside's disrupted summer, basically went on strike at Newcastle and didn't trade. But Jochores had a very disruptive time at Spoilersman as well. he flew out you know to the far east with Arsenal in the pre-season so he probably wasn't fit or ready to do so and he's never really had the chance to catch up on his fitness so first of all is he still paying a price for that difficult summer and secondly you know do we not I mean I was at Newcastle when they played against I think they played against Dan Byrne Sven Bortman and Fabian Scher and then Malik Chau it was like land of the giants and he took a batter in that day but he put such a shift for the team that that contribution helped Arsenal win so So are we kind of misjudging him a little bit because he's not what we expect him to be and he's still not fully fit from the summer that he held?

32:18Rob Dawson:Yes, there's a lot of mitigation. And this is why I say I think we need to look at him slightly differently. I just don't see him being the goal again nine to win you the league. I think what he is is a very, very good option in rotation with the other two or three that we've discussed, Havers, Jesus and Mikel Moreno. And it will be a kind of horses for courses element to it. So that's where I think we need to just shift our perceptions of Jokeres a little bit. And you're right about pre-season. It was a slightly strange situation. I think the first few days of that tour, well, they expected to have him on the tour from the get-go.

32:58Rob Dawson:They didn't because the conversations with Sport and Lisbon dragged on. I know that even the night before they announced the deal, they were still having issues at one or two finer points. they were negotiating back and forth with sporting. So it had become quite protracted at the end. The tour was taking place. They played the first game. You were seeing fans doing the mask, and he wasn't even in the country. Everyone was talking about Jokka. So they flew him out. He came out for the day they played Newcastle in their second pre-season game. He obviously wasn't in any condition to play. They played that match.

33:33Rob Dawson:The next day, they had a recovery session. The following day, they then flew four hours to Hong Kong. they were there three or four days and then they flew back to London and you can understand and we actually spoke to him it was a few of us who spoke to him in Hong Kong um we did a kind of 10 minutes or round table with him and you could see and I don't mean this as a criticism to him but you could see he was a little bit like wow okay this is you know big club step up I've been training on my own with you know sort of away from everybody else at sport and I've come into and Hong Kong's an incredible city but it's kind of in your face 24 7 you know the humidity's high the buildings are tall, you can't see the sky sometimes.

34:08Rob Dawson:The team hotel was absolutely besieged by fans for the whole time that they were there. It was a really intense thing for him to come into. Bearing in mind, on top of all that, he's being billed as, you're the guy, you are the man who's going to come and deliver the first title in 22 years. And I think he's had a real challenge in dealing with all of that, dealing with the scrutiny that comes with that. And he was, remember, he was the guy they chose over sesco because he was five years older he had a goal a game for two years at sport in lisbon and he was the win now signing there wasn't any margin for error for him he had to come in and deliver straight away and he has struggled to do that and so and that's not all his fault by any stretch of the imagination the question is whether he's good enough to translate anything like that record for sporting into what's obviously a tougher league in england the early signs I would say are mixed on that but it might not matter we're talking as if Arsenal have you know five points off the lead and and are sort of hanging on to the codes how's the teams above them they're not they're top of the table and they haven't played particularly well for a while and I've said on this pod a few times if the attack clicks it's game over they'll win the league but the question is how they make that attack click do they persevere with the Ocarez every week or do they put him in rotation with the others and play more horses for course style, which is what I think they should do.

35:32Mark Ogden:Rob, just a bit of a sliding doors question for you. James just referenced that it was Jokeres over Sesko. Do you think, obviously because Jokeres had a relationship with Amrim at Sporting Lisbon, had it gone the other way, had Jokeres gone to Man United and Sesko to Arsenal, would that have been the better solution for both clubs and both strikers?

35:47James Olley:Yeah, I mean it's possible. I mean I can understand why you might say that. I think there would probably be more time for Sesko to have adapted at Arsenal than there has been for him to adapt at Man United and Sesko might have got more going through him at Man United than he does at Arsenal. I think there are two things here. I think James just referenced it there. I think the Premier League is the hardest league in the world to score goals in. And an example of Sesco at Villa Park on Sunday where the ball kind of breaks within the first half, he gets his one clear chance of the game and it's saved by Martinez.

36:22James Olley:It's a good save. Sesco hits the target. In the Bundesliga, he probably gets three or four of those in the bulk of the games that he plays in. The same with Jokres when he plays in Portugal. In the Premier League, you just don't get that. And so your kind of margin for error is greatly reduced. And a lot of strikers have found out in that respect. It's why Erling Haaland's numbers in the Premier League are so unbelievable because he's carried on that kind of almost goal-a-game record that he's had anywhere else he's gone. The second thing about this is the kind of the fixation with stats. Now, I completely accept that a striker's role in a football team is to score goals.

36:59James Olley:But it's not all about that. I mean, I watched that Arsenal game on Saturday night and Jokeres does an awful lot away from the goal that he probably doesn't get the credit for. And there was times in that game where the ball was getting pumped up from Saliba and he's battling with Tarkovsky and Keane. He's trying to hold the ball up. Sometimes it's not coming off, but often it is coming off and he gets Arsenal high on the pitch. Arsenal fans are probably looking at that, probably not really noticing, but you are helping your team even if you're not finding the net. and I just think that sometimes, I remember doing an interview with Jack Grealish a few years ago where he was moaning about this and basically saying that at City, he could have the best game in the world, you know, in the middle of everything, but not get an assist, not get a goal and he would look in the paper the next day and he would get six out of ten.

37:43James Olley:There were other games that he said he's had, whether he's had the worst game in the world, but he's turned up at the back post twice, he's had two tap-ins, scored twice and he's getting the man of the match announced in the stadium. He just says that that doesn't make any kind of sense. So I do feel sorry for Jokrez a little bit, for Sesko is another one, that there is this mad focus on stats. And it must be tough for someone like Jokrez, who, the sport in Lisbon, you just said there, was averaging a goal every game. And he's now coming into a league where he's just not getting the volume of chances.

38:11James Olley:And also, he's held to this high standard where he's expected to score 20 league goals. Scoring 20 league goals in the Premier League is a massive achievement. And that's why not many people do it.

38:22Mark Ogden:You're absolutely right. I mean, there isn't a stat for holding the ball up or giving a platform for your team. I've seen it with Sesco. Sesco has brought that to United. He's brought a centre-forward's craft. And I think Jocker, the Newcastle game that I referenced, he really did play like an old-fashioned centre-forward for his team. But there's no stat for that. You know, it's like, it gets someone else when people get an assist.

38:43Rob Dawson:But the problem is, though, guys, is that if you just take Arsenal in isolation here, they drew, I think it was 13 or 14 league games last year. They don't need someone to hold the ball up. They need someone to put it in the back of the net. You know, and that was kind of, he was supposed to be the guy who would make that difference. And he hasn't been able to do it yet. So that's why in an Arsenal context, he's being judged perhaps a little harsher than otherwise. But again, to me, he does, you're right, he does a lot of work off the ball. He occupies defenders in a way that, you know, Marino, Havertz, they don't move in the same way.

39:20Rob Dawson:even Gabriel Jesus, their movement is different. So in certain games, he can offer you a really potent threat and somebody who really can spearhead and attack. But there are other games where he just doesn't look suited and that's okay. That's fine. But this is why I'm saying, I think the perception of him needs to change a little bit. He's not, or at least not yet, the striker who can home and away, he starts, he's your nine, when he's fit, he plays and he will probably get you a goal. That's not who he is at the moment and I'm not sure it's who he ever will be but it's too early to say that but I think in the context of this season because of the opportunity the Arsenal have, because the fact that their strikers are now coming back fit and because of how well they play when he's not in the team and by that I mean the others kind of come alive a little bit more around him.

40:12Rob Dawson:I don't think that Jokeres should be the number nine who starts every game between now and May. I think he's a very good, very viable, credible option in some matches, but not others.

40:25James Olley:You've just trampled all over my question there a little bit, James, but I'm going to ask you it anyway. The best strikers in the Premier League are that kind of one chance, one goal, you win one nil. The Premier League is about those fine margins. If Jokeres isn't that player right now and you're suggesting that maybe he hasn't got the quality to ever be that player, does he have a place in the Arsenal squad long term or is there a danger because of the money that he came in for that in a year's time we may be labeling Jokrez as a flop and the club trying to offload him and bring in the next one one chance one goal striker well for that to be

41:03Rob Dawson:the case you they'd need to identify somebody who's a better bet than him and I think that was maybe what we'll come to think about of this window in years to come, you know, the summer window, which is sort of billed as the summer of strikers, that actually, you know, I mean, look, Sesko and Jokka, I'm not going to sit here and write the pair off, because particularly Jokka has obviously had a very, very good record in sport. But I don't think clubs were looking at those two and thinking they're absolutely nailed on guarantee sort of Erling Haaland style successes. You get them, they're going to improve your team.

41:38Rob Dawson:We all probably thought that about Isak because of what he'd done at Newcastle. And that hasn't worked out at Liverpool either. And so there's questions for both of them to answer. Look, if Arsenal win the league, then Jokeres is a successful signing, right? If he scores 10 goals and they win the title, great. That's the bigger prize. There's no concern there. And his work rate is great. He's diligent. He's a professional, cares about his craft. He will improve. I'm sure he will get better from where he is now. And, you know, you don't know in his second year, maybe he will get better. I think they've invested, obviously, quite a lot of money with 73 million euros, including the add-ons, significant wages.

42:25Rob Dawson:I don't think they're about to give up on him after a year or anything like that. But I just don't think he's going to be the absolute pivotal, you know, sort of title winner signing. that he was billed as in the summer because I don't think he's clinical enough and I'm yet to see enough evidence that Arsenal are a better, more dynamic attacking unit when he's in the team.

42:49Mark Ogden:Right, so we're going to all stop being screwed about a bit to your question and we're going to talk about Christmas and for the eighth time since 1951, Arsenal are top of the league at Christmas but on the seven previous occasions they haven't won the league. Is that going to change this time? I'll ask Rob first then James, you can finish off with your gloomy prediction.

43:07James Olley:I need to be cautious because I realise that I've been changing my title winner from week to week. The one worry that I've got for Arsenal is that they haven't got over the line in the last 20-odd years. And there's a stat that I read over the weekend that in the six title-winning years at City under Pep Guardiola, between February 1st and the end of the season, and they played 95 league games. Of those 95 league games, they've lost eight and half of those when the title were already secured. Now, that is the kind of relentless form that Guardiola gets out of his City teams when he can smell the title.

43:46James Olley:Now, this is a different City team. They're in a little bit of transition. They've lost a lot of experience, but that is a kind of history Arsenal are battling against. Now, I'm not suggesting that they can't do it, but they haven't done it yet. And until they do, no one's going to know whether they're capable or not. I just think that maybe the relentless nature of what this City team can achieve will be the undoing of Arsenal again. And what has been a great first half of the season for them may not prove to be enough because City just have that, whatever it is, that intangible quality to go 10, 11, 12 games and win them all on the bounce when it really matters most.

44:22James Olley:You know, Arsenal will have to go a long way to prove that they can actually do that. And that's what defines title-winning teams.

44:29Rob Dawson:Yeah, well, I mean, it should be Arsenal's year. It should be. They've got the best squad. As you say, they're top at Christmas. They've had the lead. They've really tried, I think, mentally to sort of kick on from last season. Obviously, finishing second three years in a row can create this perception that maybe there's a glass thing that they're never going to break. I think they've shown signs of being able to move on from that. But we're not going to know until the sort of March-April time kicks in. The one thing that I think would give me confidence if I was an Arsenal fan would be to say, well, once you get your back four, back fit, playing regularly, Gabriel and Saliba obviously at the heart of that defence, you suddenly look at a team that if it can defend the way that it did in the first part of the season, where it's essentially giving up absolutely nothing, then you don't need your attack to click too much because 1-0 will be enough.

45:30Rob Dawson:But this is what I've said on this pod all along, is that Arsenal all season really have been playing with these fine margins where the defence has been so good that they've been able to rely on their set-piece prowess. We all know how good they are from dead ball situations or a moment of quality from one of the many attacking players they've got. And that's been enough because they're not giving up much at the back. Now, because they've had those injuries of late and maybe the level of their defending has just dropped a little bit. Arteta alluded to that after the Wolves game. We talked about some horrible defensive sort of principles that they showed in the final few minutes of that game when they conceded an equaliser and then obviously went on to win it really late on.

46:09Rob Dawson:If that creeps into their game, then you do worry about their mentality and whether attack-wise they've got enough to outscore every opponent they're going to need to face. But I think if they get everyone fit, then I think they win the league. I think if they continue to struggle with injuries as they do and City are just sat perched on their shoulder, then those doubts about the last three years and are we good enough and do we always find a reason not to win it will come into play. If it gets tight, I do fancy City but am I hedging my bets here? I think I am, aren't I? Yeah, I'm going to hedge my bets.

46:48Rob Dawson:I'm going to say it should be Arsenal but I fear it might be City.

46:52Mark Ogden:Arsenal, one of those toys you had at Christmas where the batches start running out on Boxing Day, I think that's where they're looking right now. Especially with Man City, they've got the really strong batches in them. I think Man City are going to win the league and Arsenal have got a whole lot of Liverpool for second spot so sorry Arsenal fans anyway that's enough on Arsenal for now we're going to take a break and we're going to come back afterwards with Don Hutchison and football's difficult relationship with alcohol

47:13Rob Dawson:Lays is an official sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 2026 Lays is also the official sponsor of all bandwagon fans that's right this summer Lays is inviting everyone to jump on the bandwagon because win or lose what's important is keeping the party going bandwagon fans can have more fun so grab a bag of Lays, gather some friends and keep the party rolling all summer long.

47:38Mark Ogden:So recently you may have read Wayne Rooney talk about his battle with alcohol during his playing career, saying that he had a massive problem. And it was a bit of a surprise to a lot of people, considering that Rooney had a fantastic career, played at Man United for over 10 years, won everything he could win. But even he admitted that alcohol was an issue in the game. So I did a piece on it recently about the impacts of alcohol and whether it's still a problem in the game. and I was kind of surprised that the PFA told me that they had a survey out last year amongst their members, Premier League players, EFL players and WSL players and 13 % of their responders admitted to having an issue with alcohol.

48:10Mark Ogden:So, read a piece about it and within that piece spoke to Don, Don Hutchison, obviously ex-Liverpool, Everton, West Ham, Scotland player because Don was part of the scene in the, is it fair to say, the mad 90s Don when alcohol was part of the game and it was an issue that kind of remained until I guess the foreign influence came in a few years later.

48:29Don Hutchison:I think that's very fair. I think it was the culture of the teams coming off the back of the 80s and then the Britpop scene, I think, of the early 90s. And, you know, Manchester had Hacienda, Liverpool had Creamware at the time and it was an easy option. We got sort of, like any young lads, we got sort of influenced by the older players who had all the success. And part of their success was obviously being brilliant players, but socially sticking together and socially having a beer and they could play through it. and they were so talented and the league was probably a little bit slower, then the league started to get a bit faster and a bit more sort of disciplined.

49:04Don Hutchison:But I think the younger players got dragged into it a little bit. It's not, you know, I'm not pushing it onto the older players at all because we made the final decisions. But it's fair to say that we were easily led.

49:15Mark Ogden:I mean, you mentioned in the piece, Tom, that basically, was it Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon, you'd get a taxi into the training ground because you knew that after training, it would be basically an afternoon and an evening in the bar. And then I don't know how many beers or other alcoholic drinks you'd take, but it was quite a heavy session by the sounds of it.

49:31Don Hutchison:Yeah, well, Tuesday was a day where there was a sports bar around the corner from Melwood. As I said, the older boys used to go there quite regular. Dart board, pool table, snooker table, a bit of cards, like whatever. And Tuesdays was a sort of unwritten rule where, as I said, we got influenced by the older boys. So we tagged along and there was a little bit of peer pressure to go along because you didn't want to be the sort of black sheep where you didn't go and you might get talked about because you wanted to be part of the dressing room. You wanted to be seen as a sort of good lad at the time.

50:00Don Hutchison:And then Tuesdays was an unwritten rule where you'd drive your car into Melwood. So you'd actually drive your car into Melwood, do your training. Then after training on Tuesday, you'd nip across the sports bar for a sort of few drinks and then all day out. And then the older boys might go open their families, but the younger boys are sort of in it. So we'd then be out all night. And then Wednesday, you've got Wednesday off. So you're sort of recovering on a Wednesday. And then Thursday morning, that's when you stick your taxi back into training because your car's already there. So it was a mad little, it was a mad scenario that I'm surprised that the managers and the coaching staff didn't pull us up on, or they did, and they let it slide, I'm not sure.

50:36Don Hutchison:So that was the sort of scenario. London was another thing whenever we were playing, you know, whether I was at Liverpool or somewhere else, when I was at West Ham just after, if we were at Liverpool and we were playing a London game, again, you know, we'd stay down. I don't know how the managers never knew because when they got back on the bus, half the team weren't coming back, half the team were missing me because we were in a hotel and enjoying the nightlife like Legends and Emporium and the nightlife of the 90s was flying. So it was all social for me. I never really got affected. I was lucky enough to, as you know, to be pretty fit and a cross-country runner and I never carried any weight.

51:10Don Hutchison:So it was all socials for me. But you look back and you just think, my regret is when I look back now thinking like I could have had so much more. And I was in Liverpool, I think, for three and a half, four years. and I'd like to think I should have been there for a lot longer. My regret is probably I could have been there for 10 years, but we'll never know.

51:28James Olley:I mean, I never reached Don's level, obviously, in football, but having bounced around sort of lower league clubs in my early 20s, the thing that struck me about those times was how much free time players had. You know, what we would do, you'd come in in the morning, have your breakfast at the training ground, do your gym session, cup of tea, out to training, you know, have your lunch at the training ground. you'd be done by half 12, one o 'clock and there was literally nothing else to do. You know, wives, girlfriends would be at work, kids would be at school. Basically, the afternoon was for whatever you wanted to do and lads would go out to the pub because they were bored.

52:04James Olley:You know, more than anything, they would go to casinos because there was nothing else to do and it kind of snowballs a little bit from there and particularly at that time, you know, the training grounds that I was at, there was nothing there. There was a cold shower to have a shower after training. there was a little canteen to have a piece of toast and maybe some lunch some chips but you know before you went home there was nothing else there there was literally nothing else to do and now it's interesting now that you know you go around man united's training ground now the 50 million quid that they spent in the summer part of that was designed to make the training ground the place where players wanted to be you know they don't necessarily want players leaving the training ground at half 12 one o 'clock and just being left to their own devices because they know what kind of temptations are out there so they're trying to put things at the training ground to keep players there till sort of you know four five five o 'clock in the evening whether it's no better gym facilities whether it's like pool tables ping pong tables and gaming systems all that kind of things to keep them there because they know they can keep a closer eye on players at the training ground it's it is interesting the way that you know times have changed and i'm sure that you know don you can kind of attest to that that yeah when you were playing it in the late 90s sort of early 2000s the amount of free time you must have had at that time there was nothing else to do to fill it no it was it was actually it was actually frowned upon

53:17Don Hutchison:back in the day to play golf and you look back and you go surely that was better I mean I played under Howard Kendall um and Howard I mean bless him he did like a bit of a party scene and you know Howard's way was Howard's way and and you know I remember training one day I think I was at Everton and um I trained on a Thursday and um he pulled me after training he went did you play golf yesterday and I went no and he went ask you one more time did you play golf yesterday and I couldn't lie to Howard and I went yeah and he went I could tell today he said because your legs were leggy he went you looked a yard short he went get get rid of the golf but it's no good for you and then you look back at it you think well should I shut a few beers in the afternoon which one's

53:56Mark Ogden:better for you so I mean one thing I mean going back to my younger days when I was starting out in the job and I mean it's probably a similar time to you were starting out at Liverpool Don And I remember those days that the press room at Amphi was basically opposite the players' bar. So you'd hang around the players' bar. Basically, what you're doing in the 90s, you'd basically either wait outside the dressing room for the players or you'd wait outside the players' bar. And you're looking back thinking, you know, players going in the players' bar after a game, professional Premier League players.

54:21Mark Ogden:So you'd basically stand at the press room and wait for the players either to go in or come out. And there's one story I'll tell when I was really young when I was starting out this job. I was at a Man United game. I think playing Sheffield Wednesday. Back in those days, you'd wait outside the players' bar. and I spoke to a player, I won't name him, just because he was one of my idols growing up, and it was better now after the game, and he was slurring his words. Maybe he had a couple of beers in the bar, maybe a bit more, I don't know. And that was what happened at the time, that you would basically wait and players would relax in the bar and chill out and they'd get back on the coach and maybe even carry on when they got back.

54:56Mark Ogden:And to now, I mean, Dom, back in those days, I think it all changed when Arsene Wenger became the Arsenal manager. and one of the first things he did, he closed the players' bar and it caused a massive controversy at Arsenal because that was a team of Tony Adams, Paul Merson, who have since come out admitted they were big drinkers and had big problems with alcohol. It was a big drinking team. He banned alcohol from the players' coach on the way home, not because he frowned upon the risk of alcohol. It was more a case of these guys are getting in the car when they get home to drive home. It was a safety issue.

55:25Mark Ogden:But back in, this was probably like 96, 97. In the game at the time, Don, Were you thinking this won't last? There's no way that this is going to stick. Or was it like, that's interesting, you know, that players barbies?

55:36Don Hutchison:No, I think it was a natural occurrence. I mean, Graham Souness was the manager at Liverpool when he took over from Kenny and he changed the sort of diet. I remember him having sort of pizzas coming after the game or pasta coming after the game to try and refuel. It was only a matter of time. I mean, I tell you, looking back, you just sort of jogged my memory. When I first signed for Liverpool, just going back a couple of years, I signed in 1990 and we were coming through. There was loads of young boys like Jamie Redknapp and Steve McManaman, myself, Mike Marsh, David James, Rob Jones, Robbie Fowler.

56:05Don Hutchison:And me and Steve McManaman were like proper skinny, like really, really skinny. I'm from Gateshead and spent my little time at Hartlepool before I moved on to Liverpool. But me and Maka, Steve McManaman, were exactly the same, proper skinny. And one of the coaching staff at the time decided it might be a good idea when everyone has their meal. The meal was actually in the players' lounge, where you've probably been a million times in the 90s. And Ronnie Moran actually said to the girl behind the bar, why don't you give Don and Steve McManaman, them two only, every single day, a half pint of Guinness for iron.

56:41Don Hutchison:And you can imagine like Stevie Nichol and John Barnes and Rushie and Steve McManaman and all the older boys going, what's going on here? But it was literally meant to give them a bit of iron to sort of thicken them up a little bit because they were really skinny. But then off the back of Arsene, I mean, it was the right thing to do. The culture was sort of shifting. and Cream was Cream was brilliant for me in Liverpool because I never drank when I went there so the Conti was next door the nightclub called the Continental

57:05Mark Ogden:Just too much for the listeners for the younger listeners Cream was a nightclub back in the day it was a legendary nightclub

57:11Don Hutchison:you know you boys will know I used to get in

57:13Mark Ogden:with a VIP pass but anyway we carry on

57:15Don Hutchison:it was a place where you just enjoyed the music so it was a little bit of a saviour for me because I didn't drink but I was never I was never affected by a drink I could never be an alcoholic I didn't really like the taste of it I hated the morning afterwards I hated that feeling in the morning where you were just, it felt terrible. So the drinking that I done and we done as Liverpool lads, youngsters, was all social. It was all meant to just like de-stress and have a good time with your mates and a bit of bonding. But just, and don't forget, like we're 18, 19. That's the thing that you've got to remember.

57:46Don Hutchison:Like this is where it kills me because you wish at 18, 19, you could have had your head on when you were 30 and not even touch it and not even go to these places. But when you're 18, 19 and you're living on your own, as Rob said, there's no kids. You know, you're just young lads, you're teenagers. And when you're in, for me, Liverpool instead of away from Gator on Newcastle, you know, you just socialise. You don't really see it as a big thing. And then once it's all moved on, that's when you look back and you think, yeah, it needed to be eradicated as quick as possible.

58:13Mark Ogden:But Don, to that point, I mean, you're a young lad now. He's 18, 19. He's making his own way in the game. He's playing in Ireland. And do you see a difference in the way that they prepare for games and the way, you know, the way that they kind of recover as well?

58:25Don Hutchison:drink. They had a player, funny enough, it was in Liverpool about two weeks ago because he's back for their end of season. They play like a summer season. They had their night out in Liverpool about two weeks ago. He just drank coke. He had a little bit of alcohol. Nothing mad. He said he only had about three or four. Then he went to bed, come home. The next morning, I think, was all about the social. It was all about the young kids sort of chatting, having a laugh together. that it probably would have been for some of them. A great day, all day out, all night out, but he's just never really been built that way.

59:00Don Hutchison:Not because I've told him. I think it's just the younger generation that's sort of staying away from it. They know it's not great for you. And I think they feel the effects more so the morning after. So they're like, nah, not even going to go there.

59:12James Olley:I think part of that is just a general change of attitude to diet, isn't it? And lifestyle. I mean, again, when I first started out, I can remember if you lost a small side of games on a Friday, if you lost, you had to come in the next day with biscuits for all the other lads. You're talking about massive tubs of biscuits. And the lads would sit there at lunchtime with their chips at lunch, eating a full pack of chocolate hobnobs the day before a game. And I can only imagine what dietitians are now, regularly dietitians.

59:38Don Hutchison:Hey, it weren't all bad, though, you know. It weren't all bad. We had a great time doing it. The lads were lucky enough like myself to stay away from being or getting in serious trouble with alcoholism or, you know, drugs or whatever, which I never thought was ever part of the scene. we did have a good time Rob mentions the training ground I mean we had an old lady at Everton when I was there an old lady called Shirley at West Ham when I was there and the maximum you got was beans on toast and you asked for any sort of cheese or any brown sauce on the top they'd tell you to do one you're getting beans on toast and that's it

1:00:09Mark Ogden:I hope it was brown sauce

1:00:10James Olley:Can I ask Don I mean there is lots of instances of players kind of overindulging in this kind of thing but part of me sometimes thinks if you get to that level as an athlete you almost have to have that kind of addictive personality anyway. You have to be addicted to training, addicted to getting better to even reach that level. And I'm not suggesting it happens with everyone, but with some professional athletes, that can kind of stretch over into other things. And maybe professional athletes, footballers, are a little bit more susceptible to going down the wrong path with alcohol or gambling or all those kind of things because it's kind of built into their personality anyway as professional athletes.

1:00:44Don Hutchison:I mean, it's a good question. I never really saw it that way. I always saw it like we were addicted to football. you know we were like we we played really hard and we but but we we enjoyed ourselves off the pitch but when it was when it was kit on time at Liverpool or wherever I was Everton, West Ham, Sunderland wherever we were when you put that kit on that training kit on it was like we we always loved football it was it was just the side part of just getting away from it for for a few hours that's that's that was my that that was my journey just getting away from it and join and join being in lads company you know there's no there's nothing better than being in lads company there's like 10 12 15 of his it doesn't have to be alcohol you know some lads didn't drink when i was at sutherland emerson tom didn't drink julio arca didn't drink there was a few boys that didn't drink but they come along uh we'd we'd made it we made it mandatory when we were at sutherland mickey gray was the captain anyone's birthday any anyone had a kid or anything like that anything to celebrate we'd go into newcastle and we'd have a few drinks in the afternoon as long as it was the right time but we made it mandatory that other boys that didn't drink had to come and you just show your face for an hour and then show your face have a coke or have a water whatever you want and then go home so when you say addicted I get what you mean because that's the footballer's sort of character where you're addicted to playing football you can lean into gambling or lean into the drink which I feel sorry for the boys that ever get sort of addicted into getting sucked into that so I count myself very lucky but I could see it

1:02:11Mark Ogden:one thing that came up when I was speaking to the PFA the wellbeing team led by Jeff Whitley you may remember him Donnie he was at City and Northern Ireland during the 90s but you're saying that players still have addictive personalities and if they're not having issues with alcohol there are things that they're worried about right now including gambling there's overtraining is an issue and snus now a lot of listeners might not know what snus is it's basically a nicotine patch which you stick between your gums and that's a big problem the PFA is saying that every club even the top clubs are having to deal with Snus.

1:02:43Mark Ogden:Now, I think you've got a bit of a story about Snus as well, how you kind of start coming to the scene.

1:02:46Don Hutchison:Well, it's a funny one. I say it in jest for anyone that's struggling out there, but I first seen it when I was at Everton and Thomas Myra, our Norwegian goalkeeper, used to put it up his lip on his gum and apparently used to relax him on the coach on the way to games. And we played a game against Arsenal, I think it was at Goodison. And I used to sort of, when I played up front, I used to stand sort of on the left side, really wide left. and I said to Thomas, just drill it straight through the middle because I'll make my run and I was never particularly good at a stand and jump but I could run and I could jump quite high and I used to win the flick arms, we'd go from there and Thomas was like, he was all over the place, he just couldn't find me.

1:03:21Don Hutchison:It was really frustrating because that was the sort of starting point of our sort of attacks, if you like. He's winning the flick arms, playing there off and I've gone in at half time, I've gone, Thomas, is there any chance you can hit me on the Diag so I can win the first header and he's gone, he went, I'm colourblind, I can't see that far and I was like, well no wonder we're in the bottom three i want you've got that rubbish up your lip and you're colorblind and it's like what chance you got and it's like daring me but it was like i never really seen it after thomas i've seen it i think slavin billich used to have a little bit of it at west am but i never really seen loads of it and i always sort of like fascinate me thinking like

1:03:55Mark Ogden:what is it what's that for the thinking is that so in the survey that the pfa did that the players come back and say it helps them relax it helps them sleep but the reality is it doesn't because it's a stimulant, it's got tobacco in it. So the science says that it can't do what you're saying it's doing. So that's the issue that clubs are struggling with it. But I guess it's just their thought is that if you've got an addictive personality, you'll find something and it's dealing with that. They have obviously help, they have the Sport Enchanted Clinic, they have therapy as well. So I guess that the PFA and the game itself is different now to what it was back in your day in the 90s, Don, where you can actually go for help if you want it and that it's not a hidden thing anymore.

1:04:30Mark Ogden:And I think just to finish on that, really, I think you said at the time that it was more difficult back in those days if you felt you had an issue to deal with it. But now there's help there.

1:04:38Don Hutchison:And that's a great thing, you know, because we started with the peer pressure and, you know, what it was like. Can you imagine, like, trying to knock on Graeme Souness's door or Kenny Daglish's door if you're at Liverpool or Man United or Sir Alex and try and open up a little bit and tell them you've got a problem? Because back then it was seen, right, you've got a problem where you're not going to play for the first team. I'm sort of paraphrasing. That's probably not what they thought, but that was the impression that you got. Being a young boy going to a manager's office, you didn't want to be seen is even if you've got a slight problem, you didn't want that slight problem to knock you out of the first team squad.

1:05:08Don Hutchison:So you just, you kept it in-house. You probably would have discussed it with a few of your young teammates. It wouldn't have got any further than that. So for the young boys now, there's personnel at the football clubs that they can lean on. There's coaches that they can lean on. I would imagine all the doors are open. But the PFA, I think it's a great tool. It always has been. But the players have got to be that little bit brave to make that first step. but maybe it's on the PFA to send their representatives into the football club a lot more instead of just once a season in the summer you know make it once a month

1:05:40Mark Ogden:Well that's it for this week just want to thank Don for giving us the recollections of his experiences back in the 90s back in the glory days of the Premier League that's what people are saying these days the 90s are the peak years aren't they everyone's kind of reflected on those days no starts no XG no possession there you go the dream era but anyway we're back after Christmas with the Football Reporters in the New Year So enjoy your time and we'll see you soon.

1:06:29Don Hutchison:They're committed to being your partner and protecting both your people and your facilities. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by.