2030: The Point of No Return? | In the Car with Katie White Climate Minister

13:07Robert:I know, looking at...

13:08Katie White:I know we're too sad as each other. But it's great to see those developments as you say, and whether it's like electric buses and things coming forward that you can see. And it's an upgrade and it's an improvement on what we've had before. So yeah, I'm going to go up here. See if it's not... Oh, there's a road close. If there is, we don't want to go there. Oh, we won't do that one. No, not that one. We won't do the road close. Road ahead closed.

13:33Robert:Yeah, that we'll carry on with here.

13:35Katie White:We'll be fine.

13:36Robert:I mean, I think that's one of the areas that excites me is because the kind of peripheral knock-on effects of having... Well, the one example, which I don't know what's happening there now, but certainly there was a period where the classic American yellow school bus, they were converting those to electric drive, but they were also using them as energy storage and distribution things when they're not... Because they know exactly when they're used. They use the same time every day in the morning and the evening to get the kids to and from school and They were quiet and they didn't have loads of smoke coming out Because I've been in with friends in New York We had kids in New York State and the school bus came in the cloud of black smoke came along with it because it was filthy old diesel engine And now that doesn't happen.

14:17Robert:But what happens then is that the bus group, well, it's a federal. It's the only federal Organizations in America. They are making money because they're buying electricity when it's cheap they're selling it when it's expensive and you go well that's quite useful in addition to that you know that investment but those things we're just starting to see come to fruition now yeah

14:38Katie White:no absolutely i think it's really exciting to see how things are changing and say whether it's overnight charging rates etc that people are using in a much more sensible way of how do we use our energy system more efficiently to balance out because obviously we're usually putting on a charge at night that makes sense to us and therefore and other you know energy isn't being used for other things so i think yeah it's it's very exciting to see all of those different changes occurring um and to see and to see the sort of opportunities that we can unlock and for the people i mean we've just uh opened up a big uh community energy fund so where communities can apply and actually have their own energy.

15:23Katie White:They can sort of a localised network. And also then people are making money from it. And so obviously there's much more support for it. So in that sense, how do we maximise all of the benefits of this change? So yeah, I think it is hugely exciting when you can see what you can unlock for different things.

15:46Robert:No, that is wonderful. I mean, it is the combination of the environment. People have often said to me, people who don't really understand what I do, they go, oh, you're very good with the environment. I go, I'm really not. It's very important. I'm lazy and I make all the mistakes everybody makes. but you do eventually and that's i mean i'm intrigued to know what you think about that you become sort of unconsciously aware of the the impact of your actions you know it is just like it isn't like it's not an intellectual exercise where i go well i mustn't do this because this will happen i go i can't feel comfy about doing that it doesn't feel right to get to buy that thing or to throw that away or to yeah i mean it's interesting isn't it because you sort of

16:35Katie White:there's been connotations of if you were an environmentalist or you care about then then people have connotations of oh therefore you are excellent you're wearing hessian shoes and hopefully that's there's some lovely hessian shoes out there on the market i haven't seen them but in terms of i think like actually if you were a business person you would be looking at how you can save costs everywhere you're looking at efficiencies yes Constantly. That's how you run a business. That's how people make a good business is that they look at how they can make savings to the right, to the most efficient, not undercut, but just at that perfect point of productivity, et cetera.

17:20Katie White:So actually it's just using things a bit more sensibly and thoughtfully. So actually I think you get, that's probably what different people from different backgrounds and ways of thinking can come up with some of the best solutions for this yes but yeah I and I do think it's great that we've got lots of other people it's interesting and I was the second time and I'm mentioning him but it's interesting how actually Jeremy Clarkson has done a lot to raise the profile on nature yeah nature and farming and all people yeah yeah yeah that's great so I think actually having you know everybody has a locus and actually, when you really under, you know, people are motivated, they want to live somewhere nice, they want access to green spaces, they want to have a nice park, and they want to leave things better for their children.

18:12Katie White:Fundamentally, they would also like to have lower energy bills and make life easier. Those things are both true. And so I think it's how do we try and hit both of those objectives at the same time.

18:24Robert:Yeah. I mean, I think just very briefly about Mr. Clarkson. I mean, I've met him a couple of times and he was it was beautifully rude to me, but it made me laugh so much I couldn't stand up. But he but the you know, and I've been a vociferous critic of his attitudes towards, you know, particularly electric vehicles in the past. Of course, he's changed his mind now. But that farming program, I think, has done more to help people understand the role of farming and how it's done and how difficult it is. what it is than anything else I've ever seen on the telly. I mean, it's quite remarkable. And I think it helps to have effectively a stupid person that doesn't know anything about it trying to do it and being hideously criticised by people who do know it.

19:07Robert:But it also questions a lot of those things. I think, you're right, it has been an extraordinary thing

19:12Katie White:to see how that's changed.

19:14Robert:But then that side of it, I don't know how free you are to talk about it, but the resistance to that change. So I mean, I can't help thinking of certain people I know who work in the fossil fuel industry who are lovely. They're not horrible people. They're not evil, but there are aspects of, you know, it's their business. They sell a liquid fuel that we use once. And it comes from sometimes some less than salubrious sources. And that, I mean, I cannot not believe that there isn't pressure from lobbying and on governments to go, well, let's keep going with hybrids for another 20 years because, you know, or whatever.

19:53Robert:I can hear their influence. And is that something you struggle with or that we can discuss? I mean, it's got to be a really difficult relationship between the government and the fossil fuel industry because if they turned the taps off, we'd be stuffed.

20:07Katie White:Yeah, and I do think, so I guess for me, coming into politics generally, I feel politics is very binary at the moment. and it's very black and white. So it's very much like they're bad, you know, other things are good. And that's not true, is it? Like, it's just not true. And you when you take the next layer down, there's always elements, you know, that we need to, as you say, we are fossil fuels will be part of our transition.

20:34Robert:Yeah.

20:34Katie White:You know, there's a lot of expertise in the fossil fuel industry that we need.

20:38Robert:Engineering skills. Exactly.

20:40Katie White:I mean, you know, in Aberdeen, all the geological skills that we've had we need to transfer so I think it's around you know where I was at the same time and and and we won't get everything right on the other side so to speak so I think it's like how I mean guess my positive view is that there is

21:00Robert:a bit of an unstoppable momentum now yes oh you do because I feel that but and you feel that as well globally I think there really is yeah totally and actually

21:08Katie White:I went to COP in Brazil and I was a really I have to be honest I felt a bit like oh my goodness I'm gonna go it's not you know it doesn't feel like the geopolitics is in a great place I was a bit skeptical and nervous I came away like absolutely energized oh wow fantastic yeah all right I mean large part interestingly so in some part because there was you know Brazil is so creative and they had loads of civil society in a way that they haven't had in the last few years and so I think that that added a dynamism but actually the energy I got was in large part from the British businesses who were out there, who were, you know, they were out there doing deals because they were like, we can see the direction of travel, whether it was the City of London, whether it was our energy companies, whether it was Vestas, they were out there, you know, because they could see, they want us to be in a place where we are taking, you know, making the most of this transition.

22:05Katie White:And I'm pretty unashamedly competitive for Britain, you know? Yeah. I mean, we are one of other leaders. We're not that out there on our own. And actually, there's quite a lot of people stepping at our heels for some of our expertise. And you'll know very much in EVs, there's others going ahead and so on. Oh, goodness, yeah. As well as being a transition, this is also a race. And I want to see it. So yeah, look, I'm also aware that if you are in an industry and you're part of something, change is difficult for some people.

22:41Robert:Yeah.

22:42Katie White:And change is difficult for some industries. And, you know, whether it's individuals and whether, and I think I'd always start off with trying to listen to what their concerns are, because sometimes they're legitimate. Oh, gosh. And actually we can learn and we can amend. Sometimes it's just people that need a bit of reassurance. And so how do we do that? So I guess, you know, on electric vehicles, you know, you and I have seen over the past few years that charging infrastructure has just got so much better and it's getting better all of the time and when you started I started you know I'd have to plan my journey and yeah think about it now and drive with your fingers crossed that the charger one

23:20Robert:would be there one and two would work which often didn't yeah no it's very challenging whereas now

23:26Katie White:Well, I have to say, I never plan ahead in terms of I would just set, you know, I mean, most journeys aren't obviously massive journeys, but even if I was, you know, I might be like, okay, where do I think I'll stop? But on my Google Maps check, they're everywhere. You know, I went to the Lake District with some girlfriends the other week. I was back late from work and I had to drive over and then I needed to charge the next morning and found, you know, an incredible one. It was 12 minutes. We were just saying, I was, my only concern was would I have time for a tea and a wee? Yeah. What's the charging was?

24:01Katie White:Because it was like, it's going to be 13 minutes. And I was like, okay, will there be time? So yeah, I think, but those were legitimate concerns for people. And so I think listening to those legitimate concerns, but then obviously things, and particularly these days, sadly online stuff can, you can get conspiracy theories and all that kind of stuff. So I think you've got to be able to call some of that out to make sure that people feel reassured and want to get on board.

24:33Robert:Yeah, because that's the thing. Well, I don't do anything like as much as I did do. But the thing I taught myself was write the immediate response to this ridiculous claim and then delete it. And then write it again like you're talking to your mum, being polite. That was a very important person. But that was one of the things I've just learned. So the vehicle I drove up here in to see you has a 100 ,000 mile, eight year warranty for the car. And a 150 ,000 mile warranty, or whatever it is, 10 year warranty for the battery. Wow. I.e. they know the battery is going to last longer than the car. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:11Robert:Because that argument I still hear sometimes. And actually, let's place the blame for that where it belongs, which was with Mr. Jay Clarkson in 2008, when he said this nissan leaf we will throw the battery away after three years and it's powered by coal you know those that was and people have heard that and that stayed in the the ether in that discussion ever since then which is a remarkable amount of influence he used to have in that arena but you don't have to throw you the back you know the battery in this car will be fine when this car is like really you know the steering's falling to bits and the black axle was gone and suspension you know in 10-15 years time the battery will be fine and I think once that piece of information comes out and the batteries we saw last year in I was in China with CATL really the biggest battery maker in the world their batteries you can't set fire to them you can fold them in half and crush them under a tank they drove Chinese tanks over there was a slightly alarming thing to witness they don't catch fire you know it doesn't matter what you do and also they outlast the car you know they know now they're not they've got no anxiety about that anymore so that i think that's the heart the thing i try and communicate is this is not a static technology no no of course it's

26:22Katie White:still moving at an incredible rate totally well and as we move into and it was just as we get more electric vehicles as we are doing and you know the uk is doing pretty well in terms of the number of electric vehicles we've got already i think we've had the most in europe in last year so so um It's sold in new EVs. So I think we will, there is also creates more of an incentive to recycle these. And so I think it's really interesting. And I talked to people yesterday about this, how do we make sure we're looking at that circular economy piece? Because in the long term, obviously that just, as we've got more of them, it makes more sense to be able to do that.

27:03Katie White:So I think there's a lot of exciting developments going on. In fact, we were talking at the beginning about the scientists before we started. And one of my joys of this job is hanging out with the scientists. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Oh, I always thought UK scientists were cool. Like, but they are absolutely amazing. And we have got some of the...

27:25Robert:And generally optimistic, which I'm always surprised. You always think they're going to go, oh, no, we're screwed. There's nothing we can do.

27:30Katie White:I mean, we've got some of the best scientists in the entire world. Like, you know, it really is something that we lead on. And so I guess it's and they and I guess they're exciting for me. I'm just going to turn down here and then we can go back.

27:52Katie White:The scientists are really interesting because obviously they are the ones that are going to tell us what's happening and how we need to respond. but also they're the ones that are doing so much of the innovation. And I think so, it's exciting because it holds that space of what are all the risks, how are they doing? And then what are the innovations? And at the forefront of it, as I say, Britain is really some of the best in the world. And as you say, they seem to hold, obviously they have to hold the rigour and everything else that comes with being a scientist, But I love it when they hold the curiosity and the sort of openness of, OK, here's a problem, we're going to solve it.

28:30Katie White:And they just keep turning over stones to try and solve the problem. They don't get caught up in talking about it or shouting about it. And sometimes, you know, that's the bit that frustrates me sometimes about politics is, look, we all know the direction of travel. You know, and you certainly see this in China. Yeah. the direction of travel and they know the jerks travel and that's why they've massively invested in this industry because they can see that actually climate change you know they can see the impacts that have been happening for them yeah and for them directly but also for the rest of the world and so they have set their strategy to make sure that they are energy secure and actually energy security is going to come from where are our most abundant resources well in this pretty windy little nation of ours.

29:16Katie White:It turns out wind is our wind. And I'm like, take back control of our wind. It's our wind, it's British wind.

29:26Robert:You're very true. And I think that one of the things I learned from spending a lot of time with engineers and scientists is that we'd discuss something, I don't know, any like big major global problem. And they go, oh, and they're in, I read about it and I nothing we can do we're screwed it's the end of the world and they go oh this is brilliant yeah because it because then how do you solve this really intractable difficult thing that we've been living with for decades and and it just seems to be getting worse so you know it is that engineering mindset is that yeah let's fix it then let's find a way of doing it that isn't like that and it is the different yeah totally and i think that is very vibrant in the uk i think that our history of you know in this if you like in initially industrial innovation and the industrial revolution it kind of is weird that it happened here and that we that you know that you've got to be proud when i see a big old beam engine i go oh that is amazing we made those first totally you know we have sort of i mean but i think every kind of western economy america here of europe is has let that go to china in a sense in the last 40 years you know because they when you go there you go, oh my god, you know, they're so far ahead technologically now, they've kind of caught up with us and then overtaken us at such a speed.

30:43Robert:But I mean, you know, that's, you know, the batteries in this car are made in China, in that one that's going the other way, you know, that's where that's coming from. And that isn't altogether negative, you know, it is just a simple fact of life. They've got the capacity to do it.

30:58Katie White:I think going back to your point though about Britain and where do we have to offer and I was at Orsted in the, that wasn't Orsted, I was at Vestas. Sorry, another winter. We didn't mention them, they're Danish. Vestas in the Isle of Wye for the week and they said to me that of the wind turbines that were international across the whole world over 60 % of the technology was created there in the out of right now it's like amazing like they have this great little center which is say had engineers you know or a scientist at the same time all together right and actually they had cracked the technology so I think look of course we we don't have many people as a joke we We have different advantages, but we are of a size that we can scale things.

31:51Katie White:We have a big enough economy. We have some incredible advanced manufacturing. Our scientists, I think, are one of our superpowers. And how do we pull that together with our creative and entrepreneurial spirit and make sure that we create some magic? And I think, look, we're not going to win on everything. Of course we're not. And I think that would be unrealistic to say. and I keep looking at where are our comparative advantages, you know, clearly wind is an area where we have an advantage. You know, we've got incredible offshore wind. We're trying to bring back onshore wind. Right. Obviously, it was faulted under the last government, but we're trying to bring that back.

32:33Katie White:Right. And so those, you know, whether it's on, we're big on green finance, we're good on engineering and on facilitating, bringing projects together. Lots of areas. We're not going to win on solar. No. It's not an area. So I think in this huge transition, which is incredibly exciting, how do we make best use of the assets that we have and really make sure that Britain is in the lead so that we do get the economic advantages of it. We have some nuclear skills that no one else in the world has. That's pretty cool. That's why the Americans are working with us, because we've got expertise that nobody else has.

33:16Katie White:So I think it's also being proud of what we have and how do we supercharge that. Most people don't know that actually over the last 20 years, we've reduced our emissions by 54%.

33:32Robert:Which is phenomenal. I didn't know that, but it's not when you tell people that. Yeah. And I mean, the two things I always use that statistic, which has increased over the years, but I mean, it's an incredible reduction, but also how much money leaves our economy to pay for fuel, which is kind of the thing about energy independence. You know, that that is a substantial amount. It's over a billion pounds a week, isn't it, that effectively goes to pay for fuel that powers our economy. It's not that we're just giving it away.

34:03Katie White:There is a return on it,

34:04Robert:But it's still that money, some of that money could remain in circulation within the UK and employ lots of people in really good jobs. You know, that's a totally look.

34:14Katie White:I think we're all aware that geopolitics is is pretty volatile at the moment. And therefore, how do we make ourselves more resilient? And the best way to make it, we have to make sure that we are energy secure. And I want to be making sure to say that we're laughing, but this is British wind. Why not use it? But the system we're moving towards is obviously we have, as you say, been buying off other people in the past. We don't want to be buying off other people. But in order to invest in our own wind, we have to sort of create much more infrastructure. So I try and use the analogy a bit of it's a bit like we were renting a house and we were paying somebody else.

34:53Katie White:And now we're buying our own house. You know, there's an upfront payment on that. But once we, you know, that will be coming back to us and so that's the shift that we need to explain to people.

35:05Robert:Yeah.

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35:45Robert:So, I mean, the other, you know, clearly your focus has been on the environment and on climate change. You know, and this is kind of critically important for us and particularly for me. when we've done episodes in the past about a new electric car that's smaller and lighter and cheaper and faster and all that millions of views you know instantly but if we do an episode which uses the word climate in the title the views just fall off a cliff yeah and so we've been in a sense i i've worked on the assumption that people kind of know that that's in the background of what we're talking about but we don't go up front about it but the thing is it's it's really important it's a critically important part of you know our all our lives now is how that's changing and i don't i don't know i you know that it's that communication so you've done that far more than me how you communicate that in the most positive way because you know as we know there are some now quite prominent politicians who just go it's all nonsense it's a lie it's a con by the liberal elite who's forcing us to you know eat muesli and wear hessian shoes or whatever the weird thing is but know that's really and that's such an easy argument to make oh it's all nonsense don't

36:58Katie White:worry about it buy a diesel you know it's fine i mean look i think people who are peddling that sort of nonsense in the uk i don't there's many of them but any people who are peddling that in the uk are backpedaling our interests you know it's yeah look i care about climate because i've seen the science right so that that's why i care about climate because of the science as fundamental I mean, as you say, it's a puzzle, it's an engineering challenge, it's a science challenge. If people, if they never mention climate and are interested in electric vehicles and interested in making their homes more efficient and more comfortable.

37:40Robert:And cheaper to run. And cheaper to run.

37:41Katie White:Great. I'm not wedded. No. And we all, different things appeal to each of us in different ways. So, you know, I'm very aware of that. And I don't really mind. Right. Like, I want Britain to be cleaner, greener, healthier, and wealthier. And I think this is a really good way to do it. Yeah. At the same time, I know that I will have done everything I can to leave things in a better place for my children. grandchildren in the same when i'd graduate but you know uh but in terms of uh i i think you know i i don't if the language works if otherwise you know things go in cycles don't they and as long as we're moving forward what i get frustrated about is people trying to delay us or because a bit like what why like what to what end you know what i mean like let's move forward let's try things let's make mistakes let's you know let's let's regroup let's listen let's learn let's be you know in motion um just whinging from the sidelines doesn't float that that does annoy me yeah but if you use different language then i think that's fine and actually it's really interesting because in the people obviously i get asked this question a lot whereas actually the date the polling on climate and on support for it is pretty amazing.

39:14Katie White:It's way up there in terms of circa 70 % of people, which a political party would bite your hand off on anyone. Any business, any political party would bite your hand off for that sort of numbers. So So, like, sometimes politicians and whatever underestimate people. You know, when I go out knocking on doors in my constituency, look, of course, first I said to people who are trying to live their lives, you know, day to day. But they also want to do that in a way that leaves things better, because that's like instinctively who we are as humans. You know, and we want to make sure that we've got greener spaces.

39:56Katie White:And actually, we want things that are slightly better. And what we're proposing is a better system for our country. It's not a backgate. It's an upgraded system. And fundamentally, that's what we want. Progress. We want upgrade. And I think cleaner, greener, more British system is better for all of those reasons.

40:15Robert:Because, I mean, there was one survey that I remember reading about a couple of years ago. It's fairly recently, which is about onshore wind. And it was something like 85 % of people support the idea of offshore wind. but 95 % of people assume that all their neighbours and friends hate it. You go, oh, hang on, it's a slight contrast. What the hell is going on there? Which I totally understand because I wouldn't mention it. Like my neighbours where I live, I wouldn't mention it, you know, because I just think, oh, they'll hate it and they won't want it. And they, you know, I've never actually asked them.

40:48Robert:I don't want to cause trouble. If you live in a small village, you have to be very discreet.

40:52Katie White:Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it?

40:57Katie White:because when we first started, obviously, offshore winds coming in, I think we had the 25th anniversary of wind turbines the other day, I think, or onshore wind. But in terms of when it first started, I remember we had lots of local groups concerned, et cetera. And now it's like, oh, this is really, you know, this is an elegant thing. And I always think they do look really elegant, actually. I mean, obviously different contexts, different places but they do look pretty nice.

41:30Katie White:But yeah they are pretty nice to look at.

41:33Robert:Well that was a, I had a very good example in the village I live in where there was a discussion from farmers who wanted to put turbines on because they understood the economics of it. So the actual landowners around the village, there were three of them, said and they couldn't get permission, this was a few years ago and they were never going to get permission then. And then we had, We did a little talk in the village hall where an energy expert came with a spreadsheet, which all the gentlemen brothers enjoyed the spreadsheet. And he showed, you know, this is what solar panels do. This is the investment.

42:03Robert:This is the return. This is this and this. And then at the bottom, this is a wind turbine. This is how much it costs to put in. This is how quickly you get a return. And this is how much the village would make out of it. And all of a sudden, all these posh chaps are going, you know, those wind turbines are rather good. A complete change of mind. You're going to spin round it. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

42:20Katie White:I'm just going to... No, it's funny, isn't it, how things... And I remember when in the last Labour government, we did some investments on solar to try and flip the price. Obviously, the price has just come way down now. It's come down so much, yeah. So they're incredibly cheap. But all of a sudden, there was people in the city going, I must invest in solar. Oh, right, yes. But look, the price has dropped massively. And I think we never expected solar to come down. so much.

42:49Robert:To such an extent.

42:50Katie White:But now it just makes such sense and you know one of the things that we're doing in DESNA is we're doing this with the GB Energy we're investing in solar on schools and hospitals.

43:01Robert:Right which makes so much sense.

43:03Katie White:Brilliant. Yeah. It's so good. I don't think I'm allowed to talk about my constituency but we actually had one in before my time. Right. So I think it's probably fine. I won't mention where it was but they had some on the hospital and it just it's in the hospital car park. It makes complete sense. You know, everybody can see that makes complete sense. But for schools to have solar panels as well means that, and hopefully, you know, the teachers will use it as an opportunity as well for them to teach about it. To explain about it. Exactly. Because then you're in a whole systems learning piece, which I think would be great for us to learn more about that anyway.

43:39Katie White:But yeah, and visually people can see in this school. And as I say, it becomes a sort of beacon. Oh, look at that. It's a red coat. yes i did see him on the way up yeah so we haven't got an exterior camera to get the one i don't think that's going to get it yeah i know i know is it that nice to see a bit of and as there was some first few snowdrops popping through this morning oh so oh that's interesting because we because

44:03Robert:i live in us i'm a softy southerner but we have had snowdrops for probably 10 days yeah because they're all over the place lots of them so that's it i didn't realize it was that local it's extraordinary isn't it that they if they've only just come out here then we've definitely had them

44:16Katie White:a while i mean that's the environment for you exactly well and also like the gardeners and farmers here they are some snowdrops the gardeners and the farmers have have been onto this for such a long time kind of noticed i think you know exactly they you know they can see things coming through at different times in a way that others didn't but they also know how how we're going to adapt to that in many ways and how we can use nature as our ally in this you know um and things will shift and change but how do we work with that as well as you know making sure we're putting in the investment for the challenges that are ahead sadly.

44:57Robert:Well it is that I mean I'm old so I've lived long enough to have seen really quite substantial changes in British weather you know just and it's not it isn't like it isn't weather it is climate because when I was a kid we got snow it snowed in the winter and we'd build an igloo in a snowman and it just you know not every i'm sure it wasn't every winter but it was a lot of winters and i wouldn't be able to go to school because the snow was so deep and you know when you're a kid you remember that time wow we didn't go to school brilliant and then when the village we live in now is it high up and uh you know does has a history of its history of being cut off you know for a couple of days with the snow and we were told that when we when we moved there by the locals it's happened one day in 37 years we have been we have not been able to get out of the house for one day in 37 years and it was a regular occurrence so that's an alarm this year I don't think there's been any snow at all it's never it never and it was proper deep snow up to your knees that kind of level of snow big drifts that block the roads that just doesn't no totally I think something's happened a bit and then and then you'll have something like what's happening in New York at the moment where they've got unbelievable, incredibly low temperatures and masses of snow.

46:11Robert:So it's, you know.

46:12Katie White:Well, as you say, it's the changes. It's changing. It's the changes. And it's been a bit frustrating. People say, oh, you know, is it not hotter? Is it not this or whatever? I think one of the things for me, I was talking to the Met Office and they were like, we are now seeing 10 % more rain within the clouds. Basically, the fact that we've had all this rain.

46:31Robert:Yeah, there's a reason. Yeah, exactly.

46:33Katie White:Exactly. And it is increased precipitation. So it changes. I mean, you know, I don't want to be scaremongering because I don't think that particularly helps us. I guess the facts are we are conducting a global experiment on our planet. We know what that is leading towards because of our scientists, but we don't know exactly how some of that pans are. But it means uncertain weather conditions, whether it's, you know, more intense than So it's more rain, which we all know. I mean, flipping heck, the rain this the last few months has been relentless, absolutely relentless. It's the extremities as much as anything.

47:11Katie White:So yeah, I think it's a hard one to sort of explain that. But I think and I want to explain that to people in terms of the flooding risks and everything to explain why we're doing this and why we need to be more resilient and why we need to make those shifts. But then very quickly move forward because I think we are in a better position, whether it's because we've got better cars, whether it's because we understand the technology better, whether because things are cheaper, because we're working with other people and we're learning things, we are in a position still to transition swiftly, but we don't need any messing about and we don't need any back chat from people who don't want to have...

47:54Robert:Good luck with that.

47:55Katie White:Yeah, exactly. I know. Welcome to my world.

47:58Robert:Yeah, yeah. But then that, you know, it's all right if we go all eco and all green, but what about China? They're burning more coal than ever. That argument, I just go, for goodness sake, you know, they they literally doubled the amount of solar panels in action on the planet last year in one year or from the time the first solar panel was tried out in a hippie commune in California in 1969 or whatever, you know, they are making because it makes economic sense, apart from anything else. It makes economic sense that they're doing that. with us.

48:28Katie White:Yeah, well, I mean, and the carbon briefers think that they now they think that China's probably peaked to their emissions, which is which would be fantastic for everybody because obviously they are so big. But you're so right. I mean, I understand they've got 31 nuclear power stations under development as well. Like they are at pace doing way more and in a time frame that, you know, is pretty unbelievable.

48:54Robert:But actually, the arguments you've been making about this country, even if, that's my favourite ever cartoon, which is a drawing of a climate conference, and there's a man standing up at the back, you might have seen it, going, what if we make the world better and it's all because of a hoax? Well, hang on, you've made the world better. Exactly. So even if climate change is a total liberal Nazi con job and everything's fine, the technology that's being developed now is better than the technology we used to use. I mean, that's the idea, really. Exactly.

49:29Katie White:And a lot of it's British.

49:30Robert:And a lot of it's British. A lot of it's British,

49:32Katie White:a lot of it's led by our science, and it's going to make us more secure in terms of we will have our own system in place. And I think most people feel that that is, you know, a good thing, as you say.

49:45Robert:Yeah.

49:46Katie White:Yeah. A lot of it is incredibly exciting. Yeah. You know, we're looking to upgrade the country. This is the way to do it.

49:55Robert:Yeah. Brilliant. Well, thank you for driving me through the rain.

50:00Katie White:I'm so sorry. I wanted it to be sunny in Yorkshire.

50:04Robert:No, it's never sunny. Every time I've been here, it's pouring with rain and freezing cold. No, not at all.

50:09Katie White:I feel so proud of like that. I'm always like, oh no, I want it to be, you know, and it is beautiful whatever but obviously everywhere looks better in the sun yeah yeah

50:19Robert:no that's been brilliant thank you so much really interesting

50:29Robert:well i really hope you enjoyed that what a fascinating person what an amazing conversation really enjoyed doing that really hope you enjoyed it too uh if you uh watch or listen to us on apple podcasts or spotify can you give us one of those five star recommendations because they really help us they don't cost you anything takes you a quarter of a second to do really is a helpful thing for us the same with youtube same with everyone else please do subscribe to the show please do tell your friends about it and as always if you have been thank you for watching