50 Years in the Making?! Australia's EV Boom!

32:17I mean, I love seeing EVs in school car parks, knowing that you don't have emissions within approximately the other classrooms, et cetera. Yeah, absolutely. But that is, I mean, that's something that I remember discussing when I was here last year was that it was around that time that we had the first really noticeable tranche of secondhand EVs coming on the market because of corporate leasing. So they'd been leased for three years for employees of the companies and they got rid of – it was quite bad planning because it was an enormous amount of vehicles very, very suddenly. And the price of secondhand electric vehicles dropped and everyone said they've got no residual value and all that stuff.

33:02And it's actually – all it's done is it's gone back up, the secondhand price, because there is a demand for it. And if there's a demand for it, then prices seem to rise in a capitalist economy. But the amount of people I know of anecdotally who've bought a second-hand EV is extraordinary. Because none of us knew anyone who did that because there weren't any. So the second-hand market, I think, is critically important. So is there now a sort of noticeable second-hand market in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. There's thousands. If you go to our main car selling websites, if you go to the auctions, there's literally thousands of secondhand EVs available.

33:43And, you know, most of them are in the it's been used for a few years. Someone's moved on kind of phase. So there's literally thousands on the market. And initially it was very much, again, the Teslas because they were the main ones on the market. And now because of some of these cycles in the fleet so much shorter, you're seeing a lot more of the newer brands in the second-hand market as well. The other thing that was a thing and then everyone realised it wasn't was a lot of noise around second-hand battery health and what happens when I'm buying it and what's going to be. I'm going to have to buy a new battery on day two, yes.

34:24Exactly. And, I mean, no one's ever bought a second-hand car and then had to replace the transmission the next day or anything like that. Yeah. So very cleverly, the battery health certificates and battery testing has come into the market. And the auctions and the dealers that are providing that, they've just wiped out the concerns. Because now you have a piece of paper, it's tested, you know about it. And that's something that is really about the last 12 months where it's become ubiquitous in a number of those spaces, especially around fleet sales. And it's just taken that concern away. And, I mean, that's been fantastic for driving the second-hand market as well.

35:09And, I mean, frankly, I've got a 2019 Model 3 that is not really worth a lot if I was to sell it now. Right. And, you know, if someone got that, that would be an absolute bargain of a car at roughly what it's for. But I think now with a lot more options on the market and especially with less expensive EVs really filling out the bottom end, we're really seeing that you've got the second-hand market, you've got some great choices at the different tiers there, you've got the new market, you can go from entry level all the way up to the Rolls-Royce that we were talking about earlier. Yes. So there's the choices there on both sides.

35:50Yeah. No, that is fantastic that that's happening. And also that, you know, when I sometimes will hear a criticism about I have to replace the batteries. I have to do a breathing exercise because you'll be the same. I lived with combustion engine vehicles for 40-whatever years, and I know that they all went wrong all the time, and they constantly needed servicing and oil filters and oil changes and timing belts. The amount of stuff and money I spent to maintain vehicles that were quite cheap to buy, but they cost a lot of money to operate because of that because of the constant breakdown i mean one very memorable thing is driving my mother in a this is when i was very young in a morris van and the whole exhaust uh the whole exhaust fell off and it slid down the road behind me i had to stop and put it in the back so i drove a morris van with no exhaust with my 70 year old mother and the fumes in the car were so overwhelming we had to drive with our heads out the window to get home that stuff happened all the time with all the cars I had.

36:58I mean, they were disastrous. I remember a similar incident. My father looked at my car once and said, I think your exhaust's got a hole in it, and he kicked it. And then his foot went straight through it, and all of a sudden I had to budget for a new exhaust system. Which weren't cheap. I mean, even then, it wasn't a cheap thing to replace that. I remember doing it. I think that's really become an advantage as well on the second-hand side. There's certainly been some concern around the industry about, well, how do we maintain it, et cetera, and that's something else that's changed in the last year.

37:31We've seen the associations that look after mechanics and dealer networks, et cetera, supply chain really step up in terms of training their people. And we've had hybrids on the market for 25 years, so a certain part of the market is always known about high-voltage battery management, things like that. but we've really seen the broader industry get training or access to training if they choose to take it up. And that, I think, will continue to increase over the next year or two as well because that's something in the second-hand market is managing through that life cycle of the car. Even if you're not worrying about oil filters and blown turbos and things like that, there are still suspension components.

38:18There's still repair. Steering, brakes, yeah. There's wear parts, there's, you know, seat frames, things like that that wear over time. And those are things that, you know, because it's much less complex, because there's been less on the market, there's been less attention to it. And now with the influx of vehicles and reaching some critical mass points within the national fleet, you know, we're really seeing that step up as well. So that's really good news. And great if you're buying secondhand as well. Yes. And I mean, it's also, I think that's the thing I've been saying for the last couple of years is to anyone, you know, that ever asked anything about secondhand vehicles, I go, don't worry.

38:56You know, all I ask is don't worry about the battery. The rest of the car, everything can go wrong. You know, that can all break. The battery is the least of your worries. You know, worry about the steering, the brakes, the suspension, the lights, the electronics, the software. You know, there's plenty of stuff. If you want to be anxious about an electric car, to be anxious about, but the battery isn't one of them. That's fine. There was a big campaign last year about if you buy a second-hand EV, you'll have to go and get the brakes replaced. And that one lasted for seconds until everyone said, no, you don't.

39:30No, you don't. It's so weird, isn't it? It is strange. I mean, the weird stories and ideas that come out about them. You know, the idea of it's electric cars that make all the potholes. Oh, so the 45-ton truck, that has no impression as that goes along the road, you know. Yeah. Anyway, yes. I don't want to get too moany. No way. Yeah. Too whiny about it. The thing I think I've noticed, particularly this year, being here this year, that has been reassuring is the charging, the kind of public charging infrastructure. Not so much that there's, I think there is more of it, but I can use more of it as a visitor because that can be very frustrating.

40:17But my worst ever experience was in New Zealand at a BP Chargemaster charger at a BP garage. I have the BP Chargemaster app on my phone, but my phone's British. You can't download it. I cannot download the New Zealand or Australian version. It won't let me because it's the wrong phone. you know like what that just let me pay for the electricity you know i'll give you money if you let me that's frustrating sorry yeah yes exactly it's this and i mean that is so much better here now so much easier to to deal with i'm not going to mention the charging people but you know the the ones that i've used have one they've always worked and two they've been easy to use and it's it's got better yeah is that i mean i had exactly the same experience in scotland a couple of years ago um can't download the app you can't use a credit card back then there were no credit cards on the credit card readers etc um new zealand's an interesting one um there is the the predominant charge operator there is fantastic it's everywhere it's fast it's it's brilliant but if you're an aussie you have to remember how to put your phone number in and then the then everything works and I mean, that's a really simple thing.

41:32And then, I mean, I've driven Polestar 2 around New Zealand and, you know, had no issues whatsoever. Right. Once I worked out that one secret trick for Australians to charge in New Zealand. Right. And I think so there's a couple of things to unwrap there. I mean, definitely that visitor experience, that first time that you use an EV, you haven't got the apps, et cetera. Yeah. I think there's opportunity for us to do more on that. And we've seen the plug-and-charge approach, which Tesla have taken. That works brilliantly. If you're a Tesla driver, they're pretty good if you're not Tesla, but you don't get that experience.

42:14Another one of the CPOs in Australia, EV, has introduced that as well. That works great. Requires a little bit more effort to set up than just buying the car, but once you've done it, it's the same kind of experience. So when you say that, that's like you drive up to the charger, you take the charger off, plug it in your car, and it starts charging and you do nothing. And you're paying through the account associated with the car. Yeah. So that experience, I think the best experience is the tap and charge where there is a card reader. So you can be from anywhere as long as you've got a credit or debit card with RFID on it, and then you just tap your card and fill the car up.

42:53I think that's the best experience for people who are unfamiliar, but I've got to say the best experience, if you're familiar, is the plug-and-charge experience. And the middle is having the right apps. And I think over time we'll see more federation or consolidation on that side that will make that side of it easier, unless we see a national requirement around tap-to-charge. But I think we've got a little bit of work to do on generally the layouts of charging. So here in South Australia, for example, the primary charging network here, REA, have a really big focus on disability access. They have dedicated disability spots at all of their chargers where one of the interesting things about that is they don't have the wheel barriers.

43:41They only have the bump stops. Yeah. Thank you, yeah. So by doing that, you don't have to get your wheelchair over a big jump. A big lump, yes. It's crazy, yeah. And there's more space around it and other things. And it's accessible. It's visible. It's not always where you'd expect. It's not always on the main street where petrol stations are, but they're more focused on good lighting and services nearby. And I think that's an evolution. So that's in terms of the charging experience. But in terms of the number of charges, as I saw a number from Carloop, I think we've doubled in the last year. Wow.

44:21The really interesting thing is in 23, 24, and in through the 24, 25 holiday period, which is effectively a year ago, we saw a lot of news, a lot of press where people would show a line of cars and a 90-minute wait and things like that. So that was a year ago. And, you know, a great example of that one is what was the last charger on the way from Melbourne to Adelaide was in Keith. and that specific charger there was you know it appeared in the news a bit where there was a line of cars it was put in in 2017 it had four dispensers on it it was busy in the last year there's now if you just look an hour and a half's drive on either side of it there's now 10 new sites of fast chargers ultra fast and fast chargers yeah so if that one's busy the next one is literally three blocks away.

45:17Yes. And the next one is, you know, an hour at absolute most drive away. But really, if you're going east, it's about 20 minutes drive away. So we've gone from, well, actually, your only choice is to stand there at a queue to there's now lots of choice. And I think that's really changed in the last year. We've really seen the charge port operators. And it would be fair to say, in response to the market, you know, existing now and growing substantially. So they're obviously investing in a sensible way where the market exists. But we've really seen that investment and that growth of not just this charger now has more, you know, more handles on it.

45:59It's actually, well, there's another charge network that's in the next block and another one that's in the next block. And so if you don't have that app, then that app is going to work. Or if you have some reason why you don't want to use that one, then that one's your choice. or if that one's busy, and I love the Keith one because there's a really good coffee nearby, which is important when you're leaving early in the morning to drive to Melbourne or Sydney. But if that one's busy, you just drive on. And that, I think, has been a really noticeable difference in the last year. And, you know, now if you want to circumnavigate Australia with a couple of exceptions, and I can talk to them, um that's so so um you know so much coverage that yeah that i think 60 or 70 people have done it in evs um yes because i was i was desperate to be the first person to drive around australia you know in an ev and i mean by the time i'd finished saying that sentence about 20 people had already done it i think the first one was 2011 or something like that in a converted mg um yeah Yeah, it might be a little bit late for that.

47:11But at the same time, you know, if you're feeling like 15 ,500-kilometre drive, I can highly recommend it. Take plenty of water. I would love to do it. I haven't got a bucket list. I've got a sort of thimble list. It's very short, but I would love to do that. One of the things that I experienced, which I think is worth mentioning, in relation to charging, when I recently drove quite a long way more than I normally would to go and film at this huge solar farm. And the night before that, I found a – I wasn't even looking for it, but I noticed a hotel had chargers. And I went, oh, I'll stay there.

47:47Well, it was a motel, and I can't even remember, a tenter field. It was somewhere around that area. And I went, oh, it's got chargers. Oh, I'll stay there. That makes it easy. Stop there. There was a charger. I plugged it in. I said, how much is it? He said, it's free. I went, oh, that's nice. Thank you very much. it wasn't free because I paid for the to stay there but it was cheap and then I and then the next night I booked a hotel because it was on the the route you know it was it was on the way I was traveling and I drove in and there were three chargers up on the wall and I said can I use them oh yeah help yourself mate and so two nights I filled the car completely full and didn't you know so I don't know how many miles or kilometers it was but a lot that I didn't I didn't wait and I didn't have to pay for it.

48:31But I mean, that is something we've, I've spoken to particularly hotel people in the UK who, you know, who put chargers in there just as, and I'm talking 22 kilowatt or 11 or 22 kilowatt chargers, not rapid chargers, destination chargers. And they said they're always full every night, which means that they've, they've got five or six customers regardless of it, you know, because people will go, I'll go there because they've got the charges you know yeah but i haven't seen so much of that here it's become quite a common thing restaurants particularly restaurants and uh and hotels will have you know somewhere in the corner of the car park a load of charges yeah i think that so destination charges started reasonably early there was a program with tesla i think porsche did some as well and when they did the tycoon launch so and the and tourism boards have been involved in that where it's a tourism destination, but that was sort of then not really invested in for about five years.

49:34So we're now seeing the sort of second resurgence of that in hotels, et cetera. And most of the sites, if you go to, you know, Airbnb, booking.com, you can choose to filter, I'd like to have an EV. Right, okay. I do think that's something that, you know, will probably be the next year or so. So seeing investment in destination charging, New South Wales are doing grant around tourism related charging. So they're looking at they've got a great charging network. But if you're there for tourism as distinct than for transit, then how do they make sure they fill that in? So it's certainly happening.

50:12Yeah. And yeah, exactly. Often when you see it, it's full. So where it's provided, it's full. Yes, that's true. Yeah. There's still some disinformation, I'd say. So there's still some, you know, early days you'd go to a caravan park with a powered site and you'd plug in there and stay overnight. And, you know, there's definitely opportunity to work with caravan park owners and say this is actually something you can offer to your customers as well without spending a cent. Yeah. And so I think things like that are worth focusing on as well and they're certainly in discussion with us within AVA. Yes.

50:50And I actually think because the last couple of times I've used chargers, like destination chargers at a hotel, I have paid for it. So I think the era of the free charger, because you're a customer, may come to an end, sadly. But anyway, it was free then. It was really good. And I don't know what the proportion, I mean, the other aspect, which we always hear about both here and in Canada everywhere, is I'd love an electric car, but I can't park off the street and I've got nowhere to charge it, blah, blah, blah. But equally, I meet so many people who've got an electric car and they can't park it off the street and they still use it.

51:32So it is, you know, it depends on your attitude to it. But I mean, it makes a huge difference if you have to charge it. If you only charge it using the public charging network, it's just more expensive for a start, nothing else, and more hassle. I mean, there's definitely a case there. If you're always fast charging at a premium location, it will not be nearly as inexpensive as if you're destination charging at your office or if you're charging from your solar panels at home. So definitely it changes the economic choices. and if economy is your primary driver, you know, you would have a significant swing there.

52:14Yeah. I think it's something like we've got something like 70 % of our houses are detached. And you can park off the street, yeah. Yeah, so they have a land with a house on the land and in the vast majority of instances there will be a driveway or, you know, just drive up onto your front lawn sort of thing. So there are a lot of houses that we can already cover. And for the rest of them, the townhouses, semi-detached, duplex, and apartments, there are a number of different solutions that are coming to market. And this is really sort of that next step. So we're seeing a lot more of the younger families or retirees and others that are looking at, well, how do I go electric?

53:02I'm in an apartment or I'm in a block of flats or something like that. And so there's a few things in there. So we've seen some real innovation in Australia, predominantly in trial at the moment. So some examples of that, there's a company called VCSA that do like a swing arm that you have. Yeah, we saw it. It was at our show in Melbourne. Amazing. And a friend of ours bought an electric car and the arm as a result. I've done a little news report about it. No, it was really – it was remarkable. It was a very old friend of my wife's. She never had an electric car. She test drove one and she bought the – oh, yeah, you mentioned the name of the company.

53:43And they were there at the show, and it was such an easy thing to use. Loads of people having a go, and the response was – everybody got it. Oh, and it's right out there. It's not going to hit – no one's going to trip over it. It's right out of the way. Yeah, it's a very clever idea. And it is, if your property has a frontage on the street. Which she does have, yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. The other things if your property has a frontage on the street, so we have gully charging. So a number of councils are doing trials, gully, curbocharge, other organisations that are doing where they'll either cut into the footpath and put a cover on it and you run your own cable from your property or alternatively the councils will let you run your cable across the footpath but you need to put a trip barrier or something like that over it.

54:30and those are predominantly in trial at the moment with the councils but you know I really think it'll be a mix of all of the above yeah there's there's another and and if you don't have that then there's also charge sharing like IDGO and and others that yes you know it's like well I don't have a charger I can't park in front of my house and that's another point is in Australia we don't have reserved parking places on the on the street with very few exceptions so you know you won't necessarily park in front of your house every night so being able to do things like share that charger one of your neighbors says hey i got to your house first do you mind if i pay you some for use of it things like that i think all of these solutions have to come together to work um yeah things like cutting through um cutting through footpaths you have uh you need to use the right contractors you might have you know some parts of sydney and and even near where I live have heritage registered curbs, so bluestone curbs, which are terrible on wheels and tyres, I might point out.

55:36You get very careful with them, but you're not allowed to cut through them because they're 100. Which is fair enough. Yeah, absolutely. Which is fair enough. So we'll need all of those solutions as well as that in, you know, in apartment charging and Stratas, the solutions around from different companies like pretty steady plug or alchemy charge and and and many others that that's that have different solutions for different ways of solving for that but but uh i guess what what we've seen is i'm not sure strata is a term that's commonly used um outside of australia but strata common property management so you know right where you have a group of houses that have a corporation that manages the common driveway and common parking area and things like that.

56:21Is that the body corporate? Is that the same? Body corporate, owners corporate. Oh, okay. Yeah. We don't quite have the same in the UK, no, but I do understand it, yeah. Yeah, so they have different laws. Every one of those is their own association and every state has their own management of that. So working through with how those stratas and corporations can allow charging or support it. And what's really happened so far is usually the first person in the apartment complex or group that wants to put in charging goes and makes it for themselves. And that's great. But then the next person, there's no room on the board or they've done the wrong thing or something like that.

57:08So we've gone from solving individually to, well, actually, now we really need to start solving more corporately. And so we encourage anyone who's in a strata or an owner's corporate. I mean, Ava has resources around this and our members have gone through this. We also have business members who consults and work in this space. But that's a challenge in the next sort of group of E. The next phase in a way. Yeah. So I think all of those, and actually one I didn't mention is there's also pole charging. So there's a pole charging trial with EVX in New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. They've rolled out 250 pole chargers.

57:51And I was in London a couple of years ago and I was just stunned at the number of light poles. There's thousands now. Yeah, thousands. It's extraordinary. And, you know, it's not the – there's one on the block. It's like this parking spot, this parking spot and this parking spot. And that's, I think, where we need to get to. but that has complexities in Australia around who owns the pole, who owns the charger, who has the retail relationship with the customer, who maintains, you know, make good and things like that, liability, et cetera. So I think that's really interesting. That will sort of work through over time as well.

58:28So we have a lot of things that are happening around that next tier and I guess sort of the last point in that is about a third of all Australians rent. So even once you've solved for all of those, you know, do you have permission from your landlord to do that? And so helping them through or how do you manage that discussion with your landlord? I think that will get better over time. And I think we're at a point where it's a lot of individual conversations. We'd love to see right to charge. We'd love to see, you know, tenants being supported through the EV transition, just as we'd like to see them supported through the energy transition with, if possible, solar and batteries, energy efficiency, et cetera.

59:15Again, a lot of states, all the states have their own approach to this, so that's something that we're really looking to as well. But at the end of the day, about 80 % to 90 % of people can buy a car, park it in a driveway and park it somewhere. And charge it, yes. We need to fill. There's a big gap there. We can fill. So we can absolutely focus on how do we help everyone. But as well as that, you know, there's a lot of people where you can right now go out and start driving electric, saving money, saving emissions, you know, driving smoother cars. So I think that that's something we also need to keep in mind is we can actually do it now for a lot of people and we have a lot of things that we're working through solving.

59:57And I mentioned some companies that are all thinking about this from slightly different perspectives and coming up with really innovative ideas on how do we help everything work together yeah and actually one of the things that i was really impressed with us when we filmed uh an episode about a really what in my eyes a huge tower uh apartment tower in brisbane brand new and it was and it was because they put a lot of focus on energy saving and yeah you know um you know air conditioning management so you didn't need it you kept cooler it was higher ceilings or you know it's a whole array of things but their car park i did notice quite a few chargers as we looked around their car park they put put in the wiring and the communications when they were building it so that the so that if you wanted if you got an electric car you put a charger there how do you connect it there it was like six inches and you can connect it so and that but not just power also communication so that you can then charge for it and you know you can have an account that is connected and it was like that is so obvious why isn't all why don't all new buildings have that and i mean there are now some examples in the uk where with new housing developments where they all have car chargers if you can park the car off the street there's a charger already on the house blah blah you know it's and that kind of you know i do feel that i'm probably not i know i'm not going to live long enough but there'll come a time when there'll be a child who hasn't been born yet who goes what you mean you there were like car parks with no charges well what did people do I find it funny because, you know, we talk about learning about how to charge and, you know, how to deal with all of these different things that are so strange and unique in EVs.

1:01:42My kids learned to drive in an EV. I had to take them to a petrol station and say, you know, by the way. This is how you buy petrol. Yeah. Yeah. And don't drink it. Don't sniff it. Don't touch it. Wash your hands. Things like that. Because we all assume that that's assumed knowledge. And it's sort of like the smartphone Netflix, you know, versus what the kind of discussion is. When you look back on it, you see the value of the change. When you're looking forward, you see the fear of the change. Yes, yes. That is a very good, I like that as an end phrase. Change, that's very good. Because it's so hard.

1:02:20Well, one example I had was I had a painting and decorating job. I was really rubbish in a very posh apartment in London when I was young. And they had a television with a tape machine. And next to the tape machine was a box, which was a film. So they could put that in their machine and watch a film in their house. You know, no one could do that. That was the first time I saw a VHS machine. And I was so utterly overwhelmed. Only really, really rich people with massive apartments in central London could afford that. and so you know that's that's the that's a boring old man anecdote but in a sense it shows how these things i mean that's what i feel we're we're now in a yeah you know i think there was a you could have a debate 10 12 years ago whether this whether electric cars will actually get any traction and actually grow out of the sort of niche little corner and i think we're so past that now and what we're seeing now is this kind of constant development and change and and growth and it's global as well.

1:03:23I mean, I think that's the very important... I was in China this year, last year, and then you go, I don't know why I'm even... Why are we even making a TV show about electric cars? There aren't any others. I think if I was in China, I'd be making a show about combustion cars. Yeah. Because they're so rare. And I think, I mean, we've really seen many, many years of incremental change in vehicles. Yeah. And now we're seeing a step change of innovation and the things that have come with that, they're not all good. I mean, there's a lot of debate about touchscreens versus physical buttons, and I think that's a valid debate.

1:03:59There's a lot of discussion about, you know, electronic door handles versus physical door handles, and I think that's a valid discussion to have as well. And certainly, you know, as you get older and your hands get a little bit less dexterous, having more things to grip and hold on to rather than buttons to push is definitely valuable. Yeah. But, you know, broadly speaking, the transformation in drivetrain has just been incredible. And it's not incremental improvements. And I think we've seen so many decades of incremental improvements that can't reach, you know, what we can do in efficiency, in emissions, in performance.

1:04:37And we're now seeing, well, what happens if you put extra motors in the wheels? You can't do that in a combustion car. Yeah. What happens if you have different motors for each wheel that you can talk back to? You know, what happens? I think that the innovation that we've seen is remarkable and what we're going to see and the industries that will change are significant. I mean, I love talking about we have a motorsport group that drive EVs in motorsport and, you know, there's two responses to that. One is that is amazing. Those things are so fast and they handle and, you know, they stop and everything like that.

1:05:17And then the other response to it is, hmm. Yeah. How much did you pay for it? Hmm. Yes. That always happens. Look, we've gone over the – it's fine. We've gone over the hour, James, but that's – I really appreciate talking to you. It's been really good. And I really want to wish the – so I can't even say Aiva. I don't want to be able to say it. Aiva. Aiva, yes. Well, I mean, what is clearly obvious is that organisation has done an enormous amount in this country for an incredible amount of time. I mean, that is really, that's the big surprise takeaway for me is that you've been going for over 50 years.

1:05:58It's absolutely extraordinary. So, yeah, all power to you. And please keep at it.

1:06:09Really hope you enjoyed that. What a really fascinating discussion. and how long it's been going. I didn't know that. 1973. That is proper old. There's no other electric vehicle association that old. Maybe there was one that was started up in 1901 when you had an electric car with a big Baker-like knob that you turned it on with. I've seen some of those. Anyway, that's all. I'm not going to do anything about subscribing because I've done that before we started. I really hope that some of you in Australia can get along to the show in Sydney in March. And we've got lots of shows coming up in the UK over the summer.

1:06:43the British summer, the Australian winter. And that's all for now. As always, if you have been, thank you for watching.