Bordering on Insanity? & Why Canada's Chinese Car Dream Could Be Reality

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1:42Hello and welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. So today's guest is Glenn Gary from the Victoria Electric Vehicle Association, Victoria EVA. And he will point out very quickly that that is not Victoria in Australia, it's Victoria in Canada. Really interesting dichotomy the Canadians are in at the moment. And we're very aware of this because we do a live event in Canada. You know, it is really difficult. Canada is kind of very reliant on, or not necessarily reliant on, but very connected to what goes on in the United States of America. And particularly in this space, so in electric vehicles, it's really difficult.

2:30And also the really difficult things that the orange person has said about Canada and just ridiculous, ultra-reactionary, stupid stuff. I mean, it doesn't even bear thinking about it. But anyway, you know, we're slightly one removed. We've got the Atlantic Ocean between us and the insanity that's going on in the White House in America. Not Americans. 90 % of Americans are fantastic, lovely people. They're not as mad as their current administration, who really are just barking, aren't they? There's no point trying to pretend otherwise. But anyway, one of the reasons we're very aware of what happens in Canada is because of the Everything Electric show in Canada, which is taking place on the 5th, 6th and 7th of September.

3:15So not that long. So it's a very enjoyable podcast. Please do welcome to the Everything Electric podcast, Glenn Gary from EVA Victoria. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean tech are funded by our fun-packed, test-drive-tastic events in Farnborough, London, the South West, the North, Melbourne and Sydney and next up we're in Canada for Everything Electric Vancouver and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery EV and much more at everythingelectric.store. Now, back to the episode. Okay, I'm going to be absolutely transparent about it with our viewers. Glenn, I'm going to thank you, as I always do, for your time to make this podcast.

3:58I think it's only fair that we explain that we've already done it, about half of it, and the whole thing collapsed in a heap of animal poo. and we're now back. We're going to try a different method. But thank you seriously for putting up with all this. It's really frustrating. Can you just explain, because now you've got your backdrop with the Victoria EV Association. Can you explain, one, that you're not Australian? I don't know, mate. And then two, where you are and what the EV Association is doing and its drive and its thing, because it's really, this is so, I've heard it before, but I'm still excited to hear it again.

4:42Right, Victoria Electric Vehicle Association from Victoria, British Columbia, on the far left coast of Canada, 6 ,700 kilometres away from the furthest other edge of Canada in St. John's, Newfoundland. Yeah. We have about 3 ,800 members in British Columbia across North America and a couple other spots around the world. We try to be the most active EV Association around. We do things for our members of course. We do public engagement. We also do government engagement at all three levels in Canada, municipal, provincial and federal. and yeah, we are with in this province 11 other EV associations who are here to help accelerate the change to sustainable energy.

5:39Right. And as well as the other 28 associations across Canada. Oh, and I didn't mention this before, so good thing we did this. Also a member of the Global Electric Vehicle Association, which everybody who has an EV should join because then you can see what's happening in other countries. And we see this in Canada. We see groups that are in, say, Saskatchewan, they're dealing with issues that we dealt with five or six years ago. That's our reality today. And we could say, oh, okay, well, here's how we fix that. Here's how we got around and made things better so that's what we do um we're pro bono we we have one paid employee and she her whole job is to keep us uh uh online technically right yeah yeah um yeah a lot of people doing this is a labor labor of love yeah i mean i think the important thing that you told me before it's really interesting is your advocacy so you're meeting together to come up with you know the best solutions that people who drive evs that have that that daily experience of using them what would be the most useful thing for me to have you know it well it would be a charger on the way to see my grandmother or whatever you know that that sort of hands-on feet on the ground uh experience and we do that for like i say at all three levels because the people who are in governance at all three levels, they want to do a good job.

7:13Chances are they don't know much about electric vehicles or the whole ecosystem that EVs exist in. They may not know how great they are for the environment, for their health, for citizens' pocketbooks, all those issues that politicians care about, right? So we've come in and, you know, working at city hall level sort of thing, you know, hey, what are you doing to improve your vehicle emissions? What are you doing to make sure that new build housing has EV charging in it? Because the best place to charge is where you live. That'll take up more than 90 % of all your charging needs. going to the provincial level.

7:57We, along with 11 other EV associations in this province, have the last two provincial elections given a list of 10 EV-friendly policies that went out to every political party, every candidate running, and then after the election, everybody who got a seat, they got a follow-up, right? Right. So if they're standing up in the House of Commons or in the legislature or wherever, and they want something that they can propose or perhaps beat the government with, they have something that they know people care about. Right. And we've done that now at the last federal election as well for the 29 organizations that run across our country.

8:41So, yeah, Canada is 42 million people. We have about a million EVs on the road now. Seriously, I didn't realize it was that. that's i'm very impressed wow that's a lot yeah over over 200 000 in this province alone right um so yeah uh ev associations uh the people in them uh they do have a part to play it shouldn't just be the oil and gas industry and the legacy internal combustion engine uh world who are in the media uh trying to uh clear the pitch of the betterment uh for people in transportation yeah I mean, I think that's an important thing, because in a sense, the role you've been talking about there is kind of lobbying politicians.

9:27Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no. You don't call it lobbying. Lobbists get paid. Oh, that's true. We are not paid. I'm just going to say, there is a considerable amount of money being spent by the oil and gas industry on lobbying. and the influence that they can, or the influence and leverage and threats and money that they can use to maintain their position is, I think, has to be, you know, acknowledged. And, you know, it always frustrates me that people aren't aware of just the sheer scale of activity. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I've been told the Chinese character for crisis has also the character of opportunity embedded within it.

10:08Right. So with, you know, everything is happening south of the border with their current cultural evolution, led by the orange one. He, they are taking this, it's a crisis, so they're making hay while the sun shines. They are talking to every politician they can. Oh, we can't meet the EV standards. Oh, woe is us. Well, you've been saying you can for the last five years. Yeah. And now they haven't paid a penny in any penalties yet. but now they're saying oh we can't possibly do that like okay well maybe we should let people in who can't yeah yes yes but then thanks so thankfully you had a wonderful election and a man that we're familiar with in the uk mark carney has become the new prime minister and he's you know he's he is who he is but he's clearly whatever he is whatever your politics are he's a very bright gentleman he's extremely clever i mean he's so he you've reminded me and i did i did know that that he was was either i don't know what his role was in the bank of canada before he was the head of the bank of england but he was the head of the bank account top line on his cv right yes and then there's a little sub note yeah also head of the bank of england whatever but so he but then i'm intrigued to know what level of uh of uptake of the of the information you gave the new i mean presumably there was a new intake of uh of representatives in the federal government as well at the same time and that you would have they would all have had a lovely list from the from the from electric vehicle associations in canada i'm assuming yeah Yeah, they all acknowledged or a good many of them acknowledged that they got it.

11:56Thank you for your time and blah, blah, blah, which is all, you know, the boilerplate explanation. Yeah. But we are kind of seeing that perhaps the EV incentives that had been oversubscribed, which means that they ran out of money prior to the election, may come back. We're not sure in what form and who may be promoted within that and who may be not promoted. As in vehicle manufacturers, you mean? Yes. I think we'd also started talking about, you know, the UK used to have a thriving car manufacturing base. and then it became branch plant operation for the likes of BMW and the rest and Nissan. Same thing in Canada.

12:50We haven't had a fully Canadian car maker since 1918. Yeah, that's... Can you remember the name of the Canadian company that stopped functioning? I want to say McLaughlin or something like that. So they were a sort of indigenous Canadian car-making company that made cars that weren't American. Back there, it's kind of like China is now. There were hundreds of guys who used to make carriages, who got an internal combustion engine, threw it in, and said, there you go, there's a car. There's a car. So the American industry started consolidating rapidly. So there's nothing new on the face of the world.

13:37It's repeating history. But they came north. And because our auto manufacturers are kind of like a long, you know, one would drive across the river from each other between Detroit and Windsor. They bought up a lot of places in Canada and they started making cars. And that went on through, you know, World War II. and then after World War II we signed something with the US called the Auto Pact and that was free trade of all automotive parts going back and forth and you know some manufacturers in Canada specialized in some things and you know a vehicle the vehicle parts may cross the border five six seven eight times before yeah finally you know assembled vehicle a lot of the pony cars through the 60s, 70s and 80s were all built in Canada.

14:39Many of them were built in Canada and shipped south. Then they gave us the pickup truck scourge. Yes. There's a whole lot. That's another thing. That's a whole other thing, isn't it? Yeah. But anyway, so we're heavily integrated with them. The big three, the big 2.1 because Chrysler Dodge is now just a fig leaf on top of Stellantis. So yeah we're heavily integrated with them. When the Biden government recognized that the United States was falling so far behind in clean tech and electric vehicles, they came out with strong industrial policy through a lot of money like 350 billion dollars towards all that, which would have moved about another, you know, would have been well over a trillion dollars in private money to try and have them, you know, at least keep pace, if not, well, probably wouldn't catch up, but at least keep pace with the vehicles that China built.

15:45But they did something to please a particular part of their support base, and they put up a 100 % tariff on Chinese vehicles. Canada, because we were so heavily integrated with them in the auto industry, waited three months, did a consultation. But in the consultation request, you knew what the answer to them was. And then surprisingly, or not, we ended up with 100 % tariff on Chinese totals as well. And then things changed south of the border. New administration came in. up was down and left was right and now Canada is really in a bad shape because the US is trying to force all their automakers who make things in Mexico and Canada which was under the awesome US Mexico Canada USMC the best trade deal ever because Donald Trump negotiated it yes now the worst trade deal ever.

16:48So unfair. Anyway, they're trying to get all those companies who are making in Mexico and Canada to make in the US. And he said, we don't want anything from Canada. So our auto industry, they're hoping this is just a bad dream, but they don't have you're not giving us a lot of options no really difficult really difficult position to be in well also i mean if if i was a canadian and i knew all that and then i walked past a tesla showroom a vehicle made in you know an amazing electric vehicle you know regardless of everything else that has gone on with that company the cars themselves the infrastructure around it the software the batteries the battery management system just exemplary but i wouldn't want to buy one because it's american and i can't you know i've been screwed that's just but i don't know i mean have have sales been affected i think i mean they have everywhere else i would imagine they have in canada yeah they have yeah and it's unfortunate as soon as you

18:00it's not necessarily because of they're american it's because um their ceo yeah lost his mind somewhere and uh started saying things that no one could could get behind yeah so yeah their their sales have been affected but you know they were a huge part i mean you know five years ago there were 90 % of the cars, EVs being sold in Canada. Right, yeah, 90%. That's huge. Yeah, it kind of went down to the 70-ish. Right. Because the North American manufacturers were talking lots, producing oil. And what they did produce, they didn't support very well. They didn't put any money into direct current fast charging networks.

18:45Yeah. Tesla built their networks across Canada and across the U.S. Yeah. on their own hook you know yeah like oh how come this little company can do this and you big guys can't yeah because we don't want to oh wait sorry was the mic on yes anyway oh you're right oh yeah so yeah it it has hurt and of course uh you know again those the forces of uh of uh of regression have used that the fact that uh like last year we in bc are are the electric vehicle standard was to have 26 % of vehicle sales by 2026. Right. And five years ago, it was supposed to be 10 % by 2025, but by 2024, we were already at 24.

19:32So they updated. Yeah. Right? So 2024, we're at 24%. All this stuff happens in the US. Yeah. Mr. Musk goes crazy. And now we're not seeing anywhere near that. So now the forces of aggression are saying, see we can't make the numbers yes oh yeah so yeah but we we need uh we need a supply from uh from elsewhere obviously yeah and uh if uh and and this is uh we were talking about uh how people feel about it people who own evs they they get it uh they want to see uh you know no holds barred great evs uh for less money yeah in the market right and i won't say they don't care but they understand that uh we're going to continue to uh limp along way way astern of the rest of the world yeah you know um because of the politics yeah it's not the economics it's not the technology no bloody economics yeah um i mean it's a thing i've been saying a while here and in europe you know that the the problem the resistance now or the the challenge of electric vehicles is entirely psychological not technological but in in north america it is psychological and political you know it is actually you're fighting two two resistances there which is very tough yeah and and chunga loves this yeah of course yeah the the the analogy i like using is that uh the north american auto industry is kind of like a wagon train heading across the bald prairie they're all together and then oh my gosh you know there's the natives on their horses are coming in from the north let's circle the wagons oh look we're safer in here yeah But you're also not progressing.

21:31Yeah. You're not going anywhere. And with 100 % tariffs, North America could become just a very large Cuba. Yeah. All these great old cars sitting on the road. But what is so unfair about it talking to you is, you know, and now my affection for Canada has only increased with more visits, is that you're sucked into that. And no one in Canada wants to be sucked into that. But how you cannot be sucked into that. That's what's really, I've thought about this a lot before I spoke to you. How on earth would you, you know, just to put it very crudely, can you say to America, screw you, we're going to do what we want and we don't care what the consequences are?

22:14Well, the consequences are pretty chunky and pretty big. Well, I'd say we're only going in one direction if we can continue to, what's the word I want to use? It's not the word I don't want to use.

22:36To cooperate with difficult people. because as soon as you agree, it's like Billy Connolly union negotiating tactics. Right. That's more of that, a lot more of that, none of that, and pay attention because tomorrow they'll all change. Yeah. That's what we're dealing with. Yeah. So I think we need to use our sovereignty while we still have it. Yes. Yeah. We are going to open our market to European vehicles and Chinese vehicles. They have to do all the same safety stuff. Everybody likes to say, oh, they can't meet the safety standards. No, they probably are better, but whatever. They meet our standards.

23:22We'll go through that, bring them in. We've suggested that British Columbia be the test market. Yes. Federal government let British Columbia bring in Chinese cars for now. See what happens. See how that works. and see if the people really want them or if they want to wait around for substandard North American offerings, right? Yeah. And why don't we bring in some more of the European ones that work? Well, that's the other thing, yes. I mean, because do the same, what are the tariffs on, for instance, if you could get a Renault 5 into America, would there be very high tariffs? I've lost, because these tariffs, I can't even tell if they're real anyway, but they're all over the place.

24:09It's very hard to follow it. I knew this at one time. I'm going to say less than 10%. Chinese tariffs prior to our 100 % were at 6.7%. Wow. But BYD, we've had BYD buses come here. Yes, but you've had them, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But BYD itself hadn't considered us a market to go into because really our entire population is smaller than some of their cities. Yes. And it's a big country to cover. Yeah. That didn't stop VinFest from coming here, but, you know, whatever. Yeah. But, yeah, no, I think we should look at that. and but i mean canada has its own issues with china political um you know we and again it was helping the americans apprehend somebody on their their watch list uh caused two canadians to spend a few years in prison wow definitely shortening their lives and then started this chill and then And we brought on the 100 % tariffs to ameliorate or to cooperate with the US.

25:27And then a lot of agricultural products we used to sell to China, rapeseed and stuff. That all went out the window too. So, you know, what? How is this wonderful relationship continuing to benefit us? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so a lot of stuff has to be sorted out and EVs might be the path to maybe help that happen. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting because it is so profoundly political. I mean, all the issues you're having to deal with, you know, if I think of here, the arguments I hear here is people go, I've heard the batteries don't last that long. And you go, well, oh, God, you know, it's frustrating, but it's quite an easy thing to deal with.

26:15but we're not physically attached to the USA. We can't drive into Colorado. We got, you know, that's just a very big pond. Apparently we're quite near Europe and the European Union. I don't remember what that means, but, you know. I think you're only nice age or two away from being actual Europe. Oh, let that slide. Yes, you're absolutely right. We may be able to walk there soon. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm baffled as to how you can deal with that. I mean, I think I admire your stoicism in a sense that you're just going, well, we'll get through it somehow, which I think you will. I mean, I think, and also I think what I do think is really important and really interesting, and I've just been in Europe recently, I've just driven across France and Italy, spoke to a lot of French people I know.

27:08Canada has appeared on the international map in a big way we're suddenly you know I mean I think there's been plenty of time where we've just been we are deluged with culture from America particularly in the UK so we kind of get it gets lost and then every now and then you go oh hang on this long list of movie stars that we all assume are American are all Canadian this long list of rock stars oh they're all Canadian oh hang on but the French talked about you know the fact that we're getting closer relationships with Canada in particular is a reaction to that, which is why, in a way, I would love it if there were suddenly lots of Renault and Citroën and BMW and Volkswagen dealerships and electric vehicles.

27:50I've got to tell you, we know we can't say anything about it. We've had to sign an NDA. We've got no pictures. There's some extraordinary BMWs will appear later this year. I mean, truly next generation. We're looking forward to seeing the new class come here. Yes. But BMW is among the legacy car makers who are lobbying against having to meet the EV standards. They want to have the plug-in hybrids and even just the regular hybrids count towards their requirements. and um and and and that this is typical yeah countries do different things for me to local political you know i get all that australia great example yeah but uh yeah uh so that is um where our uh our current government is you know hearing all the uh deluge of fear uncertainty and doubt.

28:56And the media, they now think, oh, maybe we have to re-examine our standards. And the standards were built with off-ramps and all sorts of things negotiated to allow the makers to, you know, bank credits, get credits from other people, whatever. And it's not till 2029 that they may even pay a fine. Oh my gosh, pay a fine. But it doesn't stop their mouthpiece organizations from crying from the top of the staple. Oh my gosh, if we don't sell enough EVs, we'll have a$20 ,000 tax on every ICE vehicle. No. So they're allowed to lie through their teeth yeah yeah yeah yeah they do pay they do pay their lobbyists i think that's the yes yes yeah um that's the other thing we've got we've got nine minutes left okay but that's good so but that uh yeah i mean that's happened here as well where we've where the the lobbying was very effective in pushing the uk government you know we had the 2030 ban on the sale of new new uh combustion vehicles and that's been watered down so it's now plug-in hybrids and the whole you know i i now call them i just call them petrol hybrids i think that's the you know gasoline hybrids that's what they are you know they still they've got combustion engines in international council on clean transportation just finished their study uh your plug-in hybrid saves on average 27 percent of the emissions that a pure gas car does right sorry petrol yes a frac so it's fractionally better yeah yeah and and hydrogen cars are maybe five percent better right yes you know well we've all seen dozens of those hydrogen cars i was in a queue of them the other day there's so many around yeah it was a junkyard right yeah yeah there's literally now i think 1 000 bevs on the planet for every hydrogen car that's been built yeah yeah it's crazy there's no argument the fact that that's still sometimes discussed i had i had a comment the other i saw a comment on our youtube channel the other day it just said the all these b battery cars are all well and good but personally i'm waiting for hydrogen But what's great now is there was a time when I might have responded to that.

31:36There were thousands of comments. Well, you'll be waiting a long time, Sunshine. Good luck with that. You could have a movie about that, Waiting for Hydrogen. Yes. That's a good idea, actually. We should do that. Just have the character getting older and older. Yeah. I mean, it is sad, I think, that there was a time when there was definitely a role for hybrids. I mean, that's how I got into the whole thing. I went from a ridiculous, you know, souped-up Golf with a big engine, VW Golf, to a Prius. And even the dealer at the Toyota dealership asked, as I was trading in one for the other, he said, are you sure you want to do this?

32:21Because the other car had big exhaust and went, you know, did all that stuff. But the journey, it was a 40-mile journey to that dealers from my house. and I was doing about 15 miles to the gallon in the Gulf. It was a ridiculously inefficient machine. It was rather fabulous, I have to say. And then on the way back, because I drove in my stockinged feet, no shoes on, I did 72 miles to the gallon. And that was a big jump in technological terms to that. And the kind of slow growth of the Prius was fascinating to witness, and it became very popular. But then that was in the 1990s. I mean, we've changed.

33:02Stuff's moved on. Even if you took a 2015 Toyota Mirai hydrogen car, 2015 Toyota Prius, because the hydrogen car is being run from steam methane reformation of natural, sorry, of methane, not natural. Yeah, not natural gas, methane gas. They are neck and neck for emissions. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. Big improvement. Yeah. Yeah, and it was twice the price of the hydrogen was twice the price of the Prius. And also, I mean, the actual cost of buying a Mirai was staggering. I mean, I don't know what it was. It was 72 ,000 here. Right, yeah. So not a cheap car. But anyway, that's the thing, is that it feels like the legislation is behind the technical reality.

33:54Again, it's psychology and politics are behind the technology. I mean, you know... In British Columbia here, our previous ministers in the ministry that's responsible for this and the previous bureaucrats, they took the attitude that they wanted to lead. So the regulations came in, they were progressive, they led, they said, hey, here's the on-ramps for EVs, here's the off-ramps. for petrol and diesel. You've got lots of time, work it out. Yeah. Yeah, and really, world leading sort of legislation. Right. And we're now encouraging them to not back off. Don't let the kids at the bottom of the class who are failing drag the class average down.

34:53Yeah, yeah. You know, keep our standards, move ahead. If they can't make it, they will pay penalties. Yeah. And we'll bring in other companies who can help. I mean, is your general feeling from the kind of general population have a fairly positive attitude to electric vehicles? I mean, is there, or is there, do you still, because I mean, I feel it's changed here really quite dramatically. Well, yeah. I mean, like I say, there are 200 ,000 EVs, over 200 ,000 EVs in the province. So let's say, you know, average family is 3.5. So 700 ,000 people living this all the time and they have friends and neighbors.

35:38Yeah, yeah. The neighborhood I live in wasn't here 12 years ago. Mine was the first EV on the road. Right. There's probably 20 or 30 in just within 100 yards of me right now. Right. We are the first solar. There's now a dozen more. Right. Yeah. On our place. So, you know, people, we saw this with A, getting a television. Yes. B, getting a color television. Yes. Someone who is like you, does those things and has a positive reaction to it. Yeah. then you're more likely to say, oh, okay, I can see me in that. Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. It's a very similar experience here. And actually, interestingly, in Australia, there probably would have been, there certainly has been, and there is to a certain extent, a massive resistance to anything that isn't a man's car.

36:37There's some Australian men that are a little bit reliant on their combustion engines to fulfil their full masculinity or whatever. but solar just wipes the floor with any political resistance you know there's the most your most right-wing reactionary sort of proto-trump person will have solar panels on their roof because it makes because electricity is expensive in the middle of the day and what happens when you put solar panels like you don't pay for it you know for your air conditioning their their environment suits solar 100 their maximum solar is at the time when they they have their maximum need for for air conditioning and that is really interesting to see how that crosses all political divides there though well even here in victoria which some people think is really rainy we still have 1100 hours a year yeah where we produce electricity so my house is is all electric um i have an ev and i make 90 of of the electricity i use each year right um from my solar panels on my roof now i'm net metering so when i when i make an excess six months in the year the excess goes to bc hydro right hold it for me when i need it in the winter i get it back there's no exchange of money or anything just one for one right right wow oh wow that is brilliant bc hydro i don't want to be too sycophantic but bc hydro pretty amazing they're they're getting some challenges too.