Costing The Earth vs Coastal Net Worth? How the World can Harness Home-Grown Energy!

0:00Do you want to find a stress-free way to buy your next car? Start at CarMax and shop your way. If you want to browse with confidence, get pre-qualified online with no impact on your credit score and shop cars within your budget, from luxury cars to family rides. CarMax has options for almost every price range, including more than 25 ,000 cars priced under$25 ,000. So, hey, want to get started? Just head to CarMax.com for details and get pre-qualified today. Want to drive? CarMax.

0:43Hello and welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric podcast. Now, before we dive into this week's episode, I just want to reflect on a couple of things that I've sort of been aware of. We've just finished our live event in Everything Electric West in Cheltenham. and thank goodness one the weather was spectacularly good which was always a concern and two loads of people came and it was a really lovely event really really sort of uplifting event just great stuff um smaller than some of the ones we've done in the past uh you know the very big shows we've had in sydney uh in vancouver and in farnborough in the uk you know those are really big events in the past.

1:24But something has changed. And that is that the sort of struggle in a way that launched this channel, the struggle to argue the case for the electrification of ground transport, if you like, and the adoption of renewable energy systems. In a way, that argument has been won. It's still a long way to go. There's absolutely no excuse for complacency. But we've past 2 million electric vehicles in the UK now there's 2 million electric cars on the road that is a substantial proportion of the total and the most recent sales figures is that about over 30 percent of new car sales are electric now it used to be like 0.00001 so that change is noticeable I've sat in a traffic jam uh week before last in coming out of London and it was just a set of traffic lights there was about 10 cars around me and i just noticed you know there was a ipace jaguar ipace there was a porsche taikan there there was a nissan leaf in front of me there and then i went oh hang on a minute and i looked around at all the cars that were around me all of them all of them were electric cars it was just a fluke event it's not very common you know normally there's a diesel transit van chugging away next to you and while you're waiting for the lights change this was just electric cars the the the percentage of electric cars particularly in the South of England, really, really high.

2:50So what is the purpose of, you know, a show about electric cars now? Is it to, it's basically now to say, look, there is some new technology coming, for instance, what we've just seen, most extraordinary breakthrough that BYD have just demonstrated their flash charging, not, you know, from sort of 10 to 80 % in under five minutes, you're talking about 250 to 300 miles range added in under five minutes. That's kind of like a petrol pump. That already exists. It's rolled out in China already. People are using it already. They have plans to roll out something like 300 of those charge points in the UK in the next couple of years.

3:28And they'll do it because they've got huge capacity and money and engineering expertise, you know, and massive batteries, which is what that needs to operate properly. Anyway, so there is a cut, all the kind of initial resistance towards electric vehicles are kind of falling away, which is fantastic. That's really good. But it does mean that we need to rethink how we present the Everything Electric shows, the live events, all those sort of things. We're having a proper rethink inside the company. But I don't think it doesn't mean we'll stop. It just means we kind of need to shift our focus. The other thing that's really changed, I'll do this as quickly as I can, but the other thing that's really changed is when I started the Fully Charged show.

4:14I'm just trying to think if there was anyone else doing something similar. There were plenty of YouTube channels about cars before that. That wasn't unusual. But to be focused on electric cars was unusual. Now there are tens of thousands of YouTube channels about electric cars, literally tens of thousands of them. Some of them really, really good. Some of them just like, why do you even bother? You know, so they vary in their quality and the interest of their output and the regularity of their output. That's the hardest thing to do is to keep it going. You know, anyone can make an episode about an electric car.

4:48That's a doddle. Make, you know, 52 episodes in a year for 10 years. That's hard work. I speak from experience. So, you know, there's that challenge as well, that we're definitely not the only channel doing this. We have got enormous support and we've got enormous, you know, we've got a reputation. We've got well over a million subscribers, all those things, doesn't necessarily translate into huge views or enormous income. That is absolutely certain. So it is a, you know, it's an exhausting process, but it's still fun because of things like flash charging happening and the cost of batteries coming down and sodium batteries and now solid state batteries are being developed very rapidly.

5:31you know the the environment is changing the technology is changing and indeed the offshore wind industry and offshore energy generation is changing and developing at a rate that is very very encouraging and exciting I've just done a link through to what this episode is about so today's episode is really about offshore wind and energy generation not just wind but we'll get that in the podcast. So I was very lucky to a few months ago to appear and do a kind of after dinner speech for an organization called IMRS, the Institute of Marine Engineering Science and Technology. Amazing people. So this covers like everything from a little fishing boat in Cornwall to the biggest container ship on the seas and everything in between.

6:21So including naval, so there's a lot of naval officers there who are amazing. How can, how they, there's a guy I met who works on submarines in the British Navy. He was about seven foot tall. I've been on a submarine. You kind of need to duck and crouch down how he survives on there. I don't know. Such a charming bloke, though. Really delightful. And the current president of the IMR-S is Deborah Greaves. And I sat next to her when we had dinner. And she's just amazing. And that's our guest today. And I'm so pleased I managed to get her to, because she's kind of busy. Got a proper job. She is a statutory professor of civil engineering at the University of Oxford.

7:00Prior to that, she was professor of ocean engineering and director of the Interdisciplinary Research Centre for Decarbonisation and the Coast Laboratory at the University of Plymouth, with previous appointments at the University of Oxford, University College London and the University of Bath. And she's now the president of the Institute of Marine Engineering Science and technology. So she kind of knows her stuff. And she is fascinating and enthusiastic and optimistic about what we can achieve in terms of energy generation and longevity and recycling materials and inclusion of different people in the industry that she works in.

7:39She was a real joy to meet and a real joy to talk to on this podcast. So without more ado, I've waffled on enough. Please welcome to the Everything Electric podcast, Professor Deborah Greaves. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun-packed Test Drive-tastic events in the UK and Australia. Next up, Everything Electric Greater London and then Sydney. All events include a B2B EV Day and commercial vehicles too. So Deborah, thank you for a start for agreeing to do this and taking time off. I've got a feeling you've got quite a busy schedule and you've got a lot going on.

8:20So I'm very grateful for you to take this time to talk to us. But I've explained how we met in the introduction. And I just think what you're doing is there's a whole other world of things going on offshore in the marine environment that I think most of our viewers and listeners will know nothing about. Because we're all very aware of offshore wind. That's a big thing. But I know there's other things. But can we, would you mind if we start with your role with IMRS and what that is and what it does? Because that was, you know, that's where we met and that's where I spoke at that event. It was really, I was fascinated by it because it was kind of a world I, so I knew existed, but I didn't really know anything about.

9:03So any information about that would be wonderful. Okay. And it was really lovely to meet you there. And it was great to have you give the after dinner talk. um so my the imrs is the institute for marine engineering science and technology and it's a professional body in a learning society which kind of supports people in their careers um through all things marine really marine maritime naval and my particular interest is in offshore renewable energy. So there's a lot of marine aspects to that, of course. And this year, I'm very honoured to be the president for the IMRS. So that gives me the opportunity to sort of get really involved and provide a sort of, you know, way of promoting the activities of the IMRS and also to try to support it in its work in supporting those areas.

10:04So So my particular sort of focus and themes for the presidency are around how we can really work together to benefit from the really the unique thing about IMRS compared to other professional bodies in that it brings together different disciplines. So it's marine engineering, science and marine technology. And we need to have people working across disciplines to tackle some of these really tough challenges that we face with climate change. and in the oceans and in the marine environment then we feel that both in terms of the the sea level rise and the impact on our coastal infrastructure but also the fact that we need to decarbonize we need to decarbonize our marine transport which is a large proportion of our emissions and also we're looking to provide or supply a lot of our renewable energy offshore as well so those are the areas um so my theme my theme is about offshore renewable energy it's about bringing together the disciplines and it's also about um increasing the uh the diversity within the uh within the sector um so that we can make sure that we encourage people from all backgrounds and all voices to be heard and contribute into into the sector because it's such a i mean it is a very exciting area and I mean in I think the two things that I'm going to say three things there's three things that in the time I've been obsessing about this topic are the sort of seem to be the cornerstones and the ones that we're more familiar with because they're in the environment that we live in is solar and batteries and obviously there is onshore wind but that's less common in the UK than in other countries.

11:53But, you know, we've all seen a wind turbine, you know, particularly in the more northern areas of the UK. But the one area that I think is, you can hear about, but you don't really know about is offshore, is what's going on offshore, because you don't see it, you know, unless you live on the coast, you don't see it. And it's kind of a bit mysterious. But then if you look at the statistics, it's a huge contributor to our overall electricity generating capacity. I mean, that's what I find fascinating about it and the scale of it, I suppose. I mean, could you give us some idea of how that's grown?

12:29Because just say you're driving up the M1 and there's three wind turbines that look quite big that you're driving past. And the difference between those and the largest that are going offshore now that are being installed at the moment. Yeah, it is really phenomenal. And I think the speed of the development of offshore wind has also been really impressive. And as you say, it's, you know, unless you live somewhere overlooking an offshore wind farm, it's not something that you're necessarily that aware of. So I think our first offshore wind turbine went in as a sort of demonstration in 2000. And that was a two megawatt turbine.

13:11Right. And, you know, so rule of thumb, that would have supplied with two megawatts, about 2000 households. And the diameter or the rotor diameter of the turbine is about 66 metres. Now, we're now looking at, so that's two megawatts about 25 years ago. and then we've had some sort of continuous increase in the size of the turbines. And this is partly because it's one way to really reduce the overall cost of the turbine and of the wind farm. So the largest ones now are being designed for 15 or 16 megawatts and the rotor diameter could be up to 250 metres. so each blade you know well over the length of an aircraft wing um and the height of these things is is perhaps up to 300 meters so the size of a building like the shard for each individual um structure so it really is phenomenal and um as a result of that we have seen over the 25 years we've seen really um really impressive sort of cost reduction in the sector as well so we've seen the prices go down, partly because of that scaling up.

14:34Yeah, I mean, I suppose that's the thing that, you know, an engineer would understand that instantly. But if you've got 10, 2 megawatt wind turbines, that's 10 big poles, 10 connections, 10 lots of wires coming out the bottom that need connecting up, 10 lots of rotors. And, you know, you can replace that with one or two. If you can understand that sort of economic, I can understand the economics behind that. That's probably going to be cheaper. yes exactly yeah you can reduce the cost by doing more of it of course and standardizing processes but also by making it bigger and sharing some of the infrastructure right and then what about because i you know do look endlessly and there's a few of my friends it's kind of sad it's kind of like a almost train spotting but we're constantly checking the generating capacity in the UK and who what's generating what you know there's various apps you can use but recently wind wind and solar have really I mean very I'm talking in the last few days we had phenomenal levels of renewable so I don't know what scale what can we generate from offshore wind I don't actually know anything is there any way of knowing the figures of the maximum we can produce well I think at the moment we have uh we have installed capacity of about 16 gigawatts around the UK in offshore wind um and that's um that's about 15 million homes if you like and it's about 17 percent of the um of the of the power grid right but as far as in terms of renewables as a whole um i think we don't celebrate the good the good success that we've had enough um you know we have since in terms of greenhouse gas emissions we've reduced by 50 more than 50 percent our greenhouse gas emissions since 1990 levels and for renewables into the grid it's consistently over 50 percent of the total power grid and we have had as you say that we have had some days and some not full days but we've had some times when we've actually had a hundred percent oh we have passed a hundred percent yeah we have 100 not for a full day yet so one of the the ambition for this year 26 is to have full days of um of you know fully non-fossil fuel power into the grid so that's really exciting and it's it's incredible progress um but of course on the other side we're also increasing our electrification so we're increasing the demand that we need because electrification is part of our energy transition and decarbonization as well so uh so we do need more and um for offshore wind There are big plans to increase the amount of offshore wind.

17:27At the moment, we have targets for about, so at the moment, we've got 16 gigawatts. And we're in, what are we, 2026. We've got targets to have about 43 to 50 gigawatts by 2030. So that's very ambitious. And then beyond that, we need to increase to about 100 gigawatts by 2040 for us to be on track towards getting to net zero by 2050. Wow. And I run a project or a hub project called the SuperGen Offshore Renewable Energy Hub. And this is a program funded by the UKRI, Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council within UKRI. and it brings together 10 universities in the core but we have a reach across over 72 universities in the UK supporting people doing research in offshore renewable energy.

18:24I'm based at the University of Oxford now, a professor of civil engineering here but we have as I say a broad range of research across disciplines around the sectors of offshore renewable energy so engineering but also into environmental science and marine ecosystems to try and understand the whole the whole system and to do that research and we work very closely with with industry and with policy and try to make sure that you know our research is well aligned with that so yeah we're very we're very engaged with this we're working on offshore wind but also we're looking at tidal stream and wave energy, all parts of the potential offshore renewable energy.

19:12And for offshore wind, of course, in order to get to those very high numbers that I said, in terms of the targets, we need to go into further offshore and into deeper waters. And that's a really fascinating design challenge because we need to, the fixed turbines that we have at the moment, that like you say, it's like a stick in the ground or maybe a jacket structure, which is fixed to the seabed. As we go deeper and deeper, then that just becomes inviolable, becomes too expensive and not sensible engineering approach. So we need to look at different ways to provide the foundation to support the tower and the turbine.

19:57And so we're looking at floating structures floating structures that are then moored and then attached to the seabed with anchors and also some other sort of hybrid type devices where you have a hinged fixed turbine which is guide or has got a hinge structure at the seabed. So yeah really interesting new types of device and new types of structure that we need to design. But I mean, we are in a very blessed position. I kind of understood this when I spent some time in the Hebrides and Alkney, in that we have these phenomenal tides around the UK, which I sort of assumed was the case all the way around the world, but it isn't.

20:45I mean, we have a huge rise and fall of tides around us and enormously strong tides going between land masses. I mean, between an island and the mainland, you know, when you actually witness it, you stand by it, you go, oh, my goodness, the sea is moving really fast all the time. It's going one way, then the other. I mean, that is amazing. So the potential to capture that energy must be enormous. But I also understand enormously challenging from an engineering point of view. Yeah. So tidal stream energy is really fascinating. And, of course, with tides, we can extract the power in different ways.

21:26So either using a tidal stream, which is where we have a turbine, smaller than the very large ones we've been talking about, but with chunkier blades. And that will be operating underwater. And then there's tidal range where we can use a barrage type or a lagoon type system. But we're particularly interested in the tidal stream solutions. solutions. And in fact, a number of projects have recently received contracts of difference from the government to develop projects in tidal streams. So we're beginning to see the first commercial tidal stream projects being developed, which is very exciting.

22:11And so here the challenge is, you know, you have this turbine, you need to place it in a very strong tidal stream and as you say that tends to happen maybe around a peninsula or between land masses up in Orkney there's some really impressive tidal races and so you could you could have it fixed to the seabed and there are some other solutions where people have developed floating platforms and then suspended the turbines from the floating platform and in that case you would need to tow the platform into position and then and then moor it but but um for the tidal stream area then some of the the very uh difficult challenges are just as you say that the water flows one way and then it flows the other way there's really not much slack tide between them but if you imagine trying to install the turbine onto the seabed and maybe drill the anchors and so on um yeah you don't have much time to do it and if you need to go and do some maintenance and so on it's it's a very very challenging um environment to work in yeah i mean i suppose one of the massive advantages it has over wind or solar is that it's in it is entirely predictable for sort of hundreds of years into the future we know when the tide's going to be running when it's stopped when it turns or when it goes the other way so you could you could easily build you know a system around that predictability.

23:43Yes, it's highly predictable, as you say, forever. I think other types of renewable sources of energy are dependent on the weather typically. So, you know, we're quite good at forecasting that, but obviously it's variable. And what we found in some of the research we've done, looking at the different sources of renewable energy, so solar, wind, and then looking at tidal stream and wave energy as well and seeing how they would contribute to the overall balancing of the system. And you can see that because they all occur at slightly different times, they tend to be out of phase with one another.

24:23And then, of course, the demand has got a different phase. But taken together, then they do provide a sort of balancing function. and overall the total cost of the energy system can be reduced if we do include tidal stream and wave energy as well. It can demonstrate that we'll reduce the amount of curtailment we might need, reduce the amount of over-provision we'd otherwise need to have and reduce the cost of storage that we would need. So, yeah, I think a diverse set of renewable energy is really important. Yeah. And I mean, the one thing that is really going from a conversation I had at the time when I was on Islay.

25:11I think it's Islay, isn't it? One of the, in the Hebrides Islands. I'd actually gone up there to look at a whiskey distillery that is completely renewably powered. So I wasn't there to, but, you know, we then found out about the stuff. But there was the challenge, and I mean, this is where I'm really fascinated by what you're doing, but the challenge of salt water and electronics and metal, you know, it's a kind of complicated mixture, challenging mixture. but presumably if you've got you know we've been we've got ships that are made of metal and they've been on the sea for now hundreds of years and we've worked out how to do that so i don't know how how big a challenge is it to mix you know effectively electronics and metal and plastics with seawater yes well it it's a it's an interesting area i mean there's various different aspects to it of course um the the types of materials the coatings that might you you might use to to protect the materials there's the um uh the marine growth uh on the on the surfaces as well so if you think of a ship then that will go and have its its hull scraped cleaned off regularly um and then as you say there's the sort of electrical stuff if it's if it is under the water then that's harder to get to and perhaps harder to protect as well of course all of these things are are possible um that's what engineering is all about but we also want to find solutions that are um are sustainable and use materials that are are going to as as well as provide the function they're designed for and be resilient uh also to have minimal impact on the environment yeah yeah so you know we have we have a range of um drivers that we need to do we need to think about when we're designing these new systems and perhaps you know we are when we're designing this new technology then inevitably we're a bit harsher than we than we would have been when we were designing things years ago because we know more about the challenges and uh we're really trying to to think about you know design for end of life or you know how would decommission how would you hopefully not decommission but somehow recover the material and the parts that are within these structures and how can you reuse them in something else um so yeah really trying to think about the whole life cycle when right at the early stage of the design um and also uh in terms of the interaction with the marine environment and the marine ecosystem so that we really understand you know what is the effect impact on the production processes when within the environment what does that mean for other species and impact on fishing and impact on um marine biodiversity yeah um but the site at emac that's the european um marine energy center where you will have visited that's in orkney yeah that's amazing yeah yes you went visit that.

28:18And that's where they can test these structures or bits of them or materials or whatever in the sea over a period of time to understand how they would really perform. And they have some grid connections there so they can test wave energy devices and tidal stream devices and connect them and actually get them into the grid. And they also have some plans in the future to develop floating offshore wind testing there. And that sort of connects up with other development, parts of the development cycle. So we might, within the research domain in universities, we might use experiments. So we have some very large wave tanks, the University of Plymouth, for example, and also in Edinburgh, where we can build a scale model of whatever this is, a wave energy converter, tidal stream, or the floating offshore wind turbine.

29:18And we can scale it down. We can scale down the sea states and the wind and the currents and the environment. And then we can run experiments to put these designs through their paces and try and understand how they perform. So we do that in the university, and then we can take them out to somewhere like EMEC and test them in the sea before going to the next step of commercial project development. Yeah. But, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I think we may have mentioned this when we talked at the event, but there are functioning floating offshore turbines now. Are there not off the coast of Scotland somewhere?

29:59There are some. Yes, that's right. There are two projects. There's the Kincardium project and there's also the Highwind. I've heard of Highwind, yes. So there's two different projects where they have installed five turbines and learned a lot about that. So with floating offshore wind, it's very interesting because there are different ways that you can design the floating platform to support your tower and turbine. and these these ideas and the designs have typically come from the oil and gas sector where we um where we have absolutely enormous um float large floating oil rig yeah in hugely deep water and some of those are yeah floating and all to the seabed um so the the same sort of ideas have been used to think about how we can support the wind turbines offshore.

31:02But of course, the design of the wind turbine, you know, it's a real challenge in terms of flotation stability, because you've got a very tall pole with a very large turbine on the top, creating a huge thrust overturning moment, which is, you know, going to be difficult to stabilise. And then, of course, you've got wave action as well and the wind and the wave is is variable so um so there are different designs types there are um and the ones that we've just mentioned those demonstrations have different ones so it's quite interesting the high wind one is a so-called spa um and that's a very deep cylinder structure so it's a bit like the monopile but it doesn't go to the seabed and that might be you know 90 or 100 meters below the sea uh level and that um below the water surface and then that structure will be um will be more to the seabed with a with a cable and and and and anchors um the other type of structure which is used in the king cardin farm is is a a semi submersible floating structure so that's a larger sort of cross-sectional area it tends to have three or four um large cylinders connected by pontoons and then the the tower will be positioned on one of those or in some cases in the center and um yeah and then that would also be um more to the seabed but there are also a couple of other types of designs so there's a barge type of design which also uses the same sort of principles as the as the semi-sub but it's more like a barge and then the the tlp or the taut the taut leg platform which is a which is which is a slightly smaller lighter platform in itself but it's got taut moorings to the seabed so it's using it's sort of using some of the buoyancy pulling the um uh the the device into the water further to create that buoyancy to stabilize it and uh yeah so that's that's the tlp type of platform and each of those types of design might suit different um water depths different sea conditions different tidal ranges and um also of course very importantly different ports and vessels and infrastructure for actually building them and getting them out there into the water.

33:48This episode is brought to you by Hankook. The Hankook Ion tyre is built exclusively for electric vehicles, engineered to deliver what EV drivers need most, confident grip, quietness, energy efficiency and long mileage. As the official tyre partner of Formula E, Hancock proves its EV technology is at the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion tyre on the road.

34:21I mean, it is interesting, the connection between the oil and gas industry you've just mentioned, and offshore wind. I mean, it's a very obvious connection. But it took me a while to kind of understand that if you were an engineer that had helped create an oil rig that's hundreds of miles offshore sometimes, then you're probably quite good at putting in a huge tower for a wind turbine. I mean, there's a lot of similarities in the technology, even though the end result is very different. Is that where a majority of the engineering skills for installing this equipment have come from? Yes, I think a lot of the skills are transferable from the offshore oil and gas sector.

35:06And so tension-led platforms, semi-subs are the types of structures, and spas are all types of structures used in oil and gas. But the design challenge, the sort of installation challenge for an offshore wind farm is quite different. So the offshore expertise and the offshore design expertise is very transferable from oil and gas. But with the wind sector, I think a lot of it, a lot of the development of wind has come from onshore wind. So it's quite an interesting sector in that you've got sort of confluence of, you know, what's come from the onshore development to offshore and then the offshore oil and gas offshore engineering expertise.

35:50And that really comes together with offshore wind. The early offshore wind farms, which have tended to be, you know, which are fixed platforms in shallower water. I think it's been, you know, a sort of progression in terms of the techniques from onshore. onshore but now we're going to deeper water then it really is and floating platforms it really is uh going to draw on that expertise within the offshore engineering and all the gas sector right um yeah but you know it's also a different it's a different design in that you know for an offshore wind farm you might be building um i don't know a farm of 100 maybe more um turbines of the same design and you're repeating that right um whereas in oil and gas you you know you probably spend a number of years of your career on a single um design and installation of a massive a massive um chemical factory offshore essentially yes so that's what it's the scale of it i think because there is a when we i drove up to to walk me one a couple of times but one of the times we sort of followed the coastal road and we were going around lochs where there were where it was a oil oil rig car park effectively i didn't know you know where they'd put pulled them in from offshore and they were they're just huge you know when you're in fairly mountainous environment anyway you've got a big home and then you see this thing i mean they are i think you know unless you've been on one you just cannot quite understand the scale of that the size of it is just vast And so that sort of scale of engineering, I'd be terrified being involved in installing a very tall wind turbine offshore.

37:43But for someone who's built one of those things or seen one or had anything to do with it, it's like just a job. Yes. Yeah. Well, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. But then one of the things we discussed, and I know one of the things that I'm and Esther are very involved in, is all the things you've been talking about. You know, if I think about it immediately, I think that needs skilled people. that have experience, that have that knowledge, that can pass that knowledge on, and younger people taking up that job. You know, there's basically a lot of jobs. There's a lot of jobs involved in constructing all this.

38:19And I mean, from what I remember you saying, there is definitely a shortage of, we have a shortage of engineers of that calibre and those skill sets. Yes, that's right. And this is where IMRS comes in, in terms of accrediting degree courses, encouraging people into the sector, and then supporting people through their careers. So helping them to get their professional membership. And then as a sort of learned society, running events and special interest groups and so on to help people gain the skills and the knowledge that they need, maybe to transition into offshore wind or offshore renewable energy from other sectors.

39:00I mean, we've talked about oil and gas, which is the sort of obvious one, but there are others as well. Potentially, you know, we need to have, in order to connect these enormous devices, we need to have a lot of cables. We need to have expertise in developing the electrical cables and the components and the systems. We need to manufacture those. We need to design those. We also need to design and manufacture the cables and so on. But as well as all of the stuff that needs to go out there, there are the vessels and the ports that need development in order to be able to do it. And then there's the whole, you know, the lifetime servicing of these farms, inspection and monitoring.

39:47And I don't think I've mentioned the environment, I mentioned the environment earlier, but there's the environmental impact assessments and ongoing monitoring as well. So there's a lot of work for environmental consultants as well as the engineers and designers and the builders and the services of these wind farms. So, yeah, I think within Supergen, we recently published a 2040 outlet report. and there we reckon we need um for um for offshore wind for example uh we need to have six times the capacity we have at the moment by 2040 so going from nine uh 16 gigawatts up to up to you know 40 to 60.