From Red Dwarf to The EV Revolution: In Conversation With Robert Llewellyn!

26:48Robert Llewellyn:And this is why you shouldn't trust everything that you read on the internet. I would love to be able to claim that. But I think, I mean, that's one of the things people assume that we sometimes improvise stuff. There was zero improvisation. It was scripted brilliantly. And occasionally, like one or two times in my entire experience with Red Dwarf, I would come up with a silly line at the end of a scene and it would be discussed and then it would be put in. But boy, that's happened literally one or two times. I mean, it's very rare. So it was very, very beautifully scripted. and rewritten. So we would read it on the first day we see in the script.

27:21We'd read it and we'd go, oh, that's brilliant. Oh, that's so funny. All that would change. You know, that would be rewritten completely. The amount of work that went into those scripts was extraordinary.

27:30Robert Llewellyn:What's interesting about going back and watching it now is that it does feel like you're watching a play and it has the pacing of a play in a way that a lot of content that's created now is around pacing for 15 second bursts here and there. so it's a real joy to watch it and absorb it in that way of it has a structure I mean I think the thing one of the things I've said about it which I think is true is it was never fashionable so if you think I mean what the one person I've spoken to this about about this is a really lovely man is Julian Clary he's just a really sweet guy and I've known him before he was famous and I didn't see him when he was famous I met him a couple times afterwards but he said you're so lucky because you were never fashionable.

28:13And he actually meant me. But he also said Red Dwarf. So he was very, very fashionable. And you can only be fashionable for quite a short time, particularly in showbiz. And then you're not fashionable. And then he has survived and he's done fine. He's okay. But that was a really clever observation that Red Dwarf wasn't fashionable in 1989. A science fiction comedy show wasn't hip. It was a bit off the wall.

28:40Robert Llewellyn:Now there's the word hip, I have to say. Oh, no, nobody says it anymore, no, but we said hip, hip, back in those days when I had my own cheese. But so that, I think that is one of its, why it still kind of goes on now, because it's not fashionable now, but it's good. That's so fascinating. And, you know, if only he could see your shacket that you now own, which I'd say that is pretty fashionable.

29:35you

29:43Robert Llewellyn:Now in 1998, Scrap Heap Challenge launched. Yes. And this really feels like perhaps the first time that your love of engineering and your joy of entertaining, presenting, comedy were able to come together as you pitted groups of engineers against a 10-hour clock. Did it feel like, oh my gosh, this is like the perfect fully crafted job at the time? No, the first series, I loved doing it. It was absolutely incredible. So we did the whole, so stupidly done, we did the whole thing in one session. So we'd wake up really early, we'd get the teams ready really early, and it was the same teams each week.

30:20So it was a slightly different format, the first series. And then we'd get them to build a machine, and then we'd have supper, and then we'd test the machine, all in the same period. So often I would get to the site at six in the morning, and I'd leave at four the next morning. and there's a big pharmaceutical company head office that you see to your left as you drive on the M4 going out of London.

30:46Robert Llewellyn:GSK? GSK. That was a scrapyard when we made that. That site was a big scrapyard right there. And it also was an aggregate store for road building and I discovered one night when there was a long wait for the test that if you need to, and it doesn't often come up in life, but if you need to, it's 5mm is what you want. 5mm aggregate. If you're going for 4mm, you slide down it. And 8mm is too rough and you can't lie on it. So I found that a big pile of aggregate, 5mm, you can lie down and you fall asleep really, really quickly. It's one that's so comfy, 5mm aggregate. It's just brilliant. What was it?

31:24Robert Llewellyn:I can imagine. Sorry, that's a very silly way of saying it was a daft way of doing it. And what it felt like was, at that time, I'd done a show called I Cancorder, which was about how to use your camcorder. I'd done a load of stuff for the Open University, which nobody watched. You know, some people watched, but very few. And now I've done this weird scrappy thing. No one's going to watch. Why can't I have a hit show like all my friends are doing and they're doing really well? And then it did carry on. The biggest surprise for me was when I got a phone call and they said they've recommissioned it for next year.

31:52I went, you're kidding? Because it felt so good. Half the machines fell apart before they even did anything. thing you know it was the same two teams and they were by the end of it they were all fighting and hating each other and there was a lot of stress and we did these ridiculous periods of uh i don't think it would be allowed now you know health and safety i definitely it would definitely come under

32:13Robert Llewellyn:a different kind of scrutiny but you know we meet engineers on pretty much every single shoot that we do across the uk across the globe who grew up on a diet of scrap heap challenge and for many it's why they became engineers and pursued those careers. I think I know what you're going to say, but do you have an absolute favourite standout episode? I mean, it's very hard not to, you know, it was such an extraordinary experience. 2002 flight special, which we did in America, which was three teams, French team, British team, American team, built aircraft using period tools. It was to commemorate the first flight, the Wright brothers.

32:55So we were all in period costume, and they only used hand tools. There was no grinding. There was no welding. You know, it was all very, very basic stuff, mainly timber and cloth to build the planes. And it was so lovely. It smelt nice. It smelt of wood, shavings and things. So they were literally planing bits of timber and shaping wood and everything like that, where they had to use real microlight engines and propellers. I was hoping we'd have like old Ford prefect motors and a hand-carved propeller. I think there's health and safety issues around very fast spinning bits of wood. Anyway, so they were all issued with that.

33:35One quick side note, when they built the planes and they wanted to test them out, the Americans couldn't get the engines to work. The American motors, the French couldn't get the engines to work. The British woman from the RAF knew how to use it. oh he's so silly and the car's going oh my god

33:52Robert Llewellyn:how'd you do that so yeah she was very cool about that so the British team were three RAF technicians and their pilot Billy Brooks who I've checked today he's still alive there's a reason behind that Billy Brooks is a hang gliding test pilot and just think that if that's your job you're a hang wait a minute you're a hang gliding test pilot so you strap some aluminium and canvas to your back and jump off a cliff which is exactly what he does and then it flies and then he's fine and then he proves that it works. I mean, his life insurance premium must be phenomenal. He's barking mad. Anyway, so there were three planes.

34:28The French one bounced into the air and stayed in the air longer than a pram would if you bounced a pram. So it sort of flew-ish. Not for long, maybe 50 metres it was up in the air. The American one was a remarkable piece of aerodynamic engineering, you get that? Because the faster it went, the deeper the grooves it made in the salt flats. we filmed it in the Mojave Desert salt flats. And it was just fantastic. We drove along in a pickup truck next to it, looking, and it got deeper and deeper, until it was like, it just drove this thing into the ground. And the pilot guy was desperately trying to do it.

35:01Their wings just sort of folded down like that and just pushed. So they didn't do terribly well. They were lovely guys. And that was based on a real design made by a bicycle engineer in like 1904 that did fly. And theirs didn't quite. And then the British, which Billy Brooks sat on a children's deck chair, gaffered tape to a piece of wood. He had a broomstick in front of him, which was joined on with leather, so it moved. And that had little eye screws and bits of string to all the control surfaces on the wings. And they didn't have time to do a throttle control, which they had a design for. They didn't make it.

35:37So the throttle control was a piece of leather in his mouth. That's how he controlled the speed. He'd move his head back and he got the engine went faster. So he did this thing where we ran along. I ran along with it, holding up one wing. And then it sort of had one wheel underneath it. But it was a biplane. So it had two wings. And it went blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was going, this is just going to be so embarrassing. And then it went blah, blah, blah. And then it went up in the air. No one, no one expected. He didn't expect it. The guy who's flying the bloody thing. So just quickly, there was amazing aeroplanes.

36:10I'd love to find out what that was. a kind of glider with an engine with two-seater with a gyroscopically controlled camera underneath it so if you think now that would just be a drone that cost 500 quid this is probably a hundred thousand a million pound plane so they took off like a scramble in world war ii and caught up with him and they were raided they were the only contact we had with him and he we had uh permission from the federal aviation authority for the planes to fly at 50 feet which was such a joke because i as if they're going to do that you know they might get to 10 for a couple of feet and we got this amazing message to say what can you tell him it's not safe we can't see him we're not getting camera footage of it and they said and we said how high is he and they always remember this we're at 3 500 feet sir and we're still climbing what do you want us to do and they were so flat these american pilots were so so and they can you tell him to come down we said we are pointing in a downward direction sir and he is waving back at us and smiling but we don't have there's no footage of There is some footage of him in the airplane, but, you know, he was a dot by then.

37:13But the great thing was the Federal Aviation Authority guy was so cool. He looked like Clint Eastwood, mirrored shades, peak cat. And he was standing there, you know, he'd been very involved in the whole thing. And I said, is this a problem? And he just went, I don't know. And he just walked and got in his pickup truck and just was like this. Oh, my God. He just had no permission to fly that. And he landed and he didn't die. Extraordinary.

37:35Robert Llewellyn:I think that's the thing that makes me most stressed is that he'd have gone up and been like, cool. and then he'd have had that moment of oh no we've got to come down and I'm sitting on a children's beach deck chair with no seatbelts or parachutes we thought it would go like that, that was the most it was just insane and a leather belt in his mouth yes, he did go faster he was like this he did do a loop round because he can't go like that because the engine will slow down and he's steering the bloody thing I mean, it was just bonkers. Yeah. So that was a bit of an exceptional moment. But I remember when you told this story, we were at some event, I think at Warwick Castle.

38:15Robert Llewellyn:And you said something like, I don't know if he's still alive. And a guy in the audience went, he's my mate. He is alive. Oh, Billy Brooks. Yes. Yeah. No, he's quite well known in those aviation circles. I mean, I bet after that kind of feat. Yeah. But after Scrap People, there may have been some overlap, actually. you began Carpool which is a format that has been emulated well yeah emulated in various guises James Corden we're looking at you but what do you think it was about that that format that people were like this is cool we could run with this so they're very closely linked Scrapeep and Carpool so on Scrapeep we used things the camera crew called them suicide cameras so they were like a lipstick camera camera uh that like the size of a lipstick with a wire that went to a little box and that's where the video was recorded so basically a camera in a string and so they would strap that to a machine where where it could go wrong and occasionally you'd find you know we'd be testing something out on a runway and you go oh and you'd see all these bits of broken plastic and a smashed up box and that was a that was a suicide camera that didn't make it so i bought two old suicide cameras from them because they're so small they were you know not much bigger than your finger i put them in the corner of a Prius that I was driving at the time.

39:33And you could drive it without, you'd forget they were there. And I did one journey with my son, which I've still got the tape of. And he's just looking at things in the countryside and swearing and saying he wished he lived in London.

39:46Robert Llewellyn:How old was he at the time? 12, 14, I would say. I can imagine. And I just want to say that all the swearing came from his mother, not from his father. And then I recorded Judy and I, and it was so revealing of our relationship because at the beginning she I don't want to have bloody cameras I don't want to be in your silly weird stuff and then she forgets and then I forget we genuinely forgot and we're driving along and she's looking at a map and then we swap drive and then she's driving and then you know we say the most it's I would never show it it's just drivel you know there are a couple who've been together a long time uh you know on a long drive and it was so I thought that is fascinating because we're not conscious of it you know if Judy and I sat in the kitchen with two cameras we would be either playing up to them or she'd get in a bad temper and yeah them off you know whatever so it was quite intriguing so then it became then I thought I could try and also the reason of that is that it was I could do it myself didn't need anyone to help didn't need a cameraman or anything the sound was hugely problematic because it those cameras didn't record sound so I had to have the most appalling microphones that didn't work.

40:52And yeah, it was very scrappy to start with, but it got better.

40:57Robert Llewellyn:But I guess it, as you say, it's that sort of intimate format that people relax a bit. Well, and you're facing, particularly for men, that you're in a car and you're facing forwards. And so you're not having to look at each other. You can dance, but you don't, because it's too awkward. Men can't look at each other when they're talking. It's too dangerous. But then I think it's interesting but you had that kind of experience of dealing with, well, creating something yourself, which now is entirely normal and everybody does it. Everybody on Oxford Street is probably doing it. But at the time, extremely pioneering.

41:30Robert Llewellyn:And it's, I guess, was what sort of led into the Fully Charged show. Yeah. Which 16 years ago, you were obviously in your 50s. God, was I? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Jesus. But to set up a YouTube channel and to be filming it yourself, like that's a pretty tech savvy smart thing to be doing did it feel that way yeah i mean i think i was i had the advantage of spending a lot of time with the the same camera crew on on scrap heap and they were all camera nerds and their camera uh there's amazing guys spud murphy uh is an australian camera technician and he was very encouraging to me and he'd set up my laptop with editing stuff and he'd show me how to ingest footage from tapes which we had to use at the time so I got some good mentoring if you like in that world so I was tech savvy enough to understand what he was saying but utterly incapable of doing it without him so he was very key to showing me how to do that and also the technology was changing so you know that it became possible that you could like the first edit suite I ever used was a sitcom that we haven't mentioned that I wrote and produced and was in and was a really good sit just didn't have any comm and so it wasn't terribly one of the very early shows on channel four when channel four started but I sat in an edit suite on Tottenham Court Road just up the road from here and that edit suite cost like three and a quarter million pounds it was like insanely expensive and really rubbish it couldn't do anything it was really slow and that's what changed so the technology kind of led to that which kind of I felt tied in with what we were talking about, which was electric vehicles, a different technology.

43:12And it became plausible for someone on their own to effectively produce a TV programme. And I was absolutely obsessed with that, certainly, yeah.

43:22Robert Llewellyn:I guess was part of that obsession of having that independence because of relationships with traditional broadcasters and perhaps specifically the BBC? Yes. No, but I'm a very, very devoted supporter of the BBC. Yes, because I went to the BBC. Am I going to remember a name? No, I'm not. But anyway, I went to the BBC in 2009 to pitch Fully Charged as a BBC show. And the whole idea was the antithesis of Top Gear. It wasn't to counter Top Gear. It wasn't to sort of ruin Top Gear. It was just that there is another world that's emerging. And they just didn't know what I was talking about. And I'll very briefly say that I joked.

44:02His name's going to come to me in a moment. The producer I was with, who'd worked on Scrappy, he had been the main executive producer behind Top Gear when it became the show in... The Grand Tour? No, no, pre-Grand Tour. Oh. When they sat on the chairs and there were the audience behind them, and then they did it. That was his thing. He was their producer. So he had a real... And he was a BBC employee. And so he didn't make$150 million out. So he's quite bitter. I imagine his his uh anecdotes about the top gear crew I won't oh the cast I won't say anything about but there were he wasn't a big fan yeah uh anyway but that's besides the point so so I had a really good in at the BBC and they wanted me to do something and it was good and I suggested this thing and they just didn't know what I was talking about they said is it what do you mean milk floats or do you mean do you mean disability vehicles or you know they just did not know what it was and I made a joke at the end when he kicked my leg because I was being a bit too cheeky but I said what about if we get a catering van and we convert it to run on electricity and batteries and put solar panels on the roof and we drive around with famous chefs cooking meals for choirs and then the choir said it's called seeing for your supper and they go and they love that idea they were going to go for it and it was like a joke because what does the bbc do choirs cooking house renovations i threw in a bit of house renovating on the way as well but we do it in a solar powered van which would have been impossible then now yeah i think it's not a bad idea i think we should pitch it

45:32Robert Llewellyn:again do you know and i feel like it would tick every single box they'd be like come on in let's make it but say they didn't commission it and 16 years on i wonder if there are a couple of people there being like yeah that could have been a good idea i don't think so no i don't think back in in 2009 2010 extremely pioneering because there were like two electric vehicles that you You could get a very small amount. So I wonder if you were to go back and whisper in mid-50s Robert's ear and say, by the way, you fast forward to 2026, this happens. Yeah. What do you think you'd say? What secret would you share?

46:07I mean, you would have gone, I don't. I wouldn't have believed them. I said it'll all be hydrogen. Because that's what everyone was telling me. It'll only be hydrogen. All the buses and all the diggers, everything will be hydrogen. Yeah. And I didn't know. It sounded plausible to me. And it was much better than burning diesel and petrol. So I thought that was great. I just would never have thought this would happen. It didn't take long for me to sense, oh, something bigger is happening here. So when the Nissan Leaf was launched, when the Renault Zoe was launched, you go, this is, and I went to the Renault factory outside Paris.

46:36I went, they're taking this seriously. You know, this is a genuine shift in technology. But way before, so I remember seeing a BYD car at Geneva Motor Show in 2009 and going, oh, I'm not that good at, They're not very good at cars. That was BYD. That was me going, that's my insightful. Little company. No, this company is never going to, that's not going to make it. No one's going to buy those. And, oh, I was wrong.

47:04Robert Llewellyn:A little bit wrong. And imagine, you know, if you could give that better advice. They sold 8 million cars last year. I'm just going to do a little time check. Oh, gosh. Okay, I'm going to do one more question, maybe two, and then we'll come to audience questions. um so you what many people might not know actually this is unfair lots of people will know because you have sold many books but you are also an author yeah i think you've written 16 books i can't remember but it's a lot yes it's somewhere around that yeah yeah and they range from autobiographical fact i was gonna say faction i don't mean that non-fiction and sci-fi and i think having spent again many many car journeys with you it always feels like these stories just need to come out and you need to they sort of annoy you until you've whipped them into shape and wrangled them into that to into a book and i know that writing has always been something that's been a consistent thread throughout your whole life but without sounding too like what goes through your process but is that how it feels that these stories just yeah need to come out yeah it's just weird it's a weird and annoying and it annoys me because i think i could do so much i could do some garden I'll go for a nice walk, but there's bloody things won't let me go.

48:17And I can't help. So that, I mean, that one I'll talk about in a minute, but was walking for hours and hours during lockdown. And I went, oh, I've had a fucking idea. And obviously it was like that. Oh, I'll forget it. I'll forget it. And then the next day, fuck, I haven't forgotten it. Cause I know I have ideas that I totally forget. And then I get frustrated that I've forgotten them. Like I don't know what they are, but that one just stayed and stayed until I did something about it. So it is a weird experience. I mean, I've always, always written. So all through all geodesic domes, shoemaking, writing for comedy things, I was writing.

48:50And it was rubbish, and it was nonsense. But it was hours and hours of writing. And then my mum gave me her Corona typewriter, which is why I break electronic keyboards now by the dozen, because I type like you had to hammer them. Otherwise it wouldn't go ka-chung. The little bar wouldn't go onto the paper. So Tink, tink, tink, tink, tink, tink. So I type like a Stone Age lunatic.

49:11Robert Llewellyn:I can confirm this because I got your old laptop and maybe like 30 % of the keys just fell off. It was really annoying. So there were like quite a lot of fundamental letters that when I got to them, I'd have to be like... Yeah. Yeah. So confirmed. It's difficult, yeah. But your latest book, Ghost Camera, and every time I say it, I want to say Ghost Train. It might be a problem with the title, but yes. Well, it's only because there's a song called Ghost Train, which I often have in my head, but Ghost Camera. It's a phenomenal book, and I really, really encourage everyone to get it, both myself and my husband.

49:45Robert Llewellyn:We read it on holiday. Oh, here's one we prepared earlier. It was just here. I don't know how that happened. It's so strange. But what's really phenomenal about it, and I don't want to give too much of the premise away because you have to read it yourselves, but I so loved reading it because it took us through a lab that's based in Oxfordshire, and it's so brought to life all of the innovations that we see on the Everything Electric show, the types of teams that we see, the types of scientists and the engineers who are quietly badgering away fueled by digestive biscuits and pretty low quality coffee.

50:19Robert Llewellyn:And you kind of track that and build this picture so perfectly and seeing that slow treading towards progress. And then there's this parallel stream which sort of tracks what happens when an innovation gets sort of catches wind and it can become very divisive both either sort of socially or politically or probably both and the scientists who are behind it are kind of baffled that that happened and you kind of comment on this in this like slightly bemused way and the overall sort of feeling I get at the end of it is despite the sort of chaos happening in these like crazy politicization and technologies you somehow remain weirdly optimistic and even though we know you for your rants that we see on Almost Breaking News.

51:03Robert Llewellyn:I wonder when you look at the rate of change of technology, how you're able to stay so optimistic? Yes, I don't know. Well, I mean, certainly the recent conversation I had with Jan Rosnau in Oxford, who is a sort of energy and climate, especially extraordinary man, who does remain optimistic, but his knowledge of the problems that we face is much deeper and more profound than mine. But he still remains optimistic, it because what else can you do is what it means it went okay yeah that's fairly good point um but i mean in you know i do think that in my life having 70 years under your belt is an advantage because you go i i never go oh back in my day you know it was wonderful it was terrible it was a lot of terrible things that you know just even on the most basic level even as a kid uh i just thought like being horrible to people was just nasty you know and I'd hear my dad doing racist rants or homophobic comments and I go that's why do you know that always struck me as wrong not I didn't learn to not be racist it just felt like why would you judge someone on those criteria and be nasty about them and what's wrong with you you know and I think that has stayed through my whole life but that was rampant when I was a kid.

52:23On the TV, it was perfectly normal to make really profoundly, obscenely racist, homophobic and sexist comments for fun. And people would laugh at it. And it's just like, looking back now, you just go, that is, it's not being politically correct now or woke or anything. It's not being an arsehole. You know, it's as simple as that. Why would you, what was wrong with those men with their ruffle-fronted, you know, that's what the Joey's was driven by, was that desire to counter that, Sort of man in bow tie. My wife, I won't say she's fucked. You know, all those things. Oh, fuck's sake. Can we move on a bit?

52:57No. So that's a through line. I can't even remember what the question was now.

53:01Robert Llewellyn:But yes, like keeping optimistic. And I think what you, you know, it's that profound hope in just being nice, I suppose, is an element. I'm not always, I'm not that. I don't think I'm that nice. You should ask Judy about that. I don't know. But yeah. But that, yeah, that was such fun. So just very brief. because that was a brilliant appraisal. I can't, it doesn't deserve it. The thing that got me when I, the way I found my way into that story, so I knew what I wanted to talk about was that it's written from the point of view of a laboratory cleaner, a janitor, who's my age, who's sort of near retirement.

53:36And he's seen all these weird professors in Oxford and he's cleaned all the most high-end scientific research places. So he's very highly skilled, calls himself a janitor, which I've later discovered is actually an American term for a cleaner.

53:49Robert Llewellyn:But I feel like it makes sense for him because he takes his role very seriously. Yeah, yeah. And he maintains a constant supply of toilet paper. A lot of people don't realise how important that is. Yeah. You don't want it to run out and all this cleaning equipment. And so he then sees all, he gets sent all these articles about the stuff. He hasn't got a clue what they're making. They're doing all this weird stuff and they're all excited about it. And there's nothing happening. And then the story is that the thing that they're trying to make completely doesn't work. It's cost billions of pounds.

54:19It's complete failure. But it does something else that's extraordinarily weird. And that's the kind of the basis of it.

54:25Robert Llewellyn:And it is just such fun. And I hope I'm allowed to say this, but I got probably 90 % of the way through the book. There's a character called Mabel, who's your daughter-in-law. And I said, oh, that's lovely. 90 % of the way through the book, there's a character called Imogen. That's right. And I was reading it on a plane, but I was on my own. And I got to the character. I was looking around. but obviously I was alone and nobody cared. But no, it is a really beautiful book. You must all read it. I think it's a really, I think it's quite rare to read a book that feels optimistic about in the age of AI.

55:02Robert Llewellyn:And it is an optimistic commentary on the sort of weird technological landscape that we live in. My last question, because I promised we'd have audience questions. I know we're running a little bit late, so we will only do one, sorry. but it seems to me that you've managed to kind of bring a very weird combination of humor to quite important things and I wonder in this kind of attention economy where we you know what we do on YouTube even has had to has had to change in the past few years we used to do these long fancy intros and now they need to be straight to the point is humor a very necessary component of getting people to compare, not to compare, to care about important things?

55:45I used to think so. I'm not absolutely convinced it is, but I think it does, it is, it is the, you know, the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine. I mean, you certainly can deal with, I don't know about, I don't know about science and technology. So social issues, you know, it's better to be funny about why it's quite a nice idea not to be racist. That's probably a better way of doing it than shouting at someone and going, if racist, you know, that, but I wonder, I do wonder with technology and with science and with engineering, whether that is the right, and this is a quandary I've not solved.

56:20I mean, and I still worry about it. And I think I shouldn't, it can devalue. I worry if I do a cheap gag, it will devalue what is actually going on. And it's a really, it's a very fine balance. And I think I get it wrong a lot of the time. I think, you know, it's a really hard one to get right. But occasionally, you know, someone will, you know, an engineer that we're talking to or someone will say something and just sparks a stupid joke. So I've learned not to make fun of the people we talk to because some of them, it wouldn't be that hard.

56:53Robert Llewellyn:No. And maybe we have secret conversations in the car. done but actually my favorite line which i was told by a mathematician at cambridge university was uh and it applies to many different ones and i'm sure you've probably heard it because you can tell a well socialized mathematician because he looks at your shoes when he's speaking to you meaning rather than he's not like that he's there he's moved that file from there to there anyway it made me laugh we'll see if that makes the edit that's what i'm saying um well robert thank you so much for indulging this little foray or walk down memory lane um i know that i've really enjoyed it i hope that everyone here has too um and i guess just thank you for making the fully charged show in the first place and making sure that everything electric is still the continued success that it is a great pleasure no thank you so much for coming along thank you thank you

57:53Robert Llewellyn:We will just say for the cameras, because there's lots of people listening at home, that is all that we have time for, as ever. If you could do us the honour of liking, subscribing, sharing with a friend, leaving a little comment, we so appreciate it. But that's it. As always. If you have been. Thank you for watching. We're so good at that. Yeah, we're so good at that. We've practised. Tired of bolted on security with endless patches? Wish your software and systems operated with built-in security? At the Center for Internet Security, we get it. That's why we partnered with SafeCode to develop a secure by design guide that offers actionable guidance to help organizations integrate security throughout development.

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