MIRACLE BATTERY? MOTORSHOW MADNESS! STRESSY STELLANTIS?

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1:45Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Pulse Podcast. the podcast where we cover the life and death decade of the automotive industry as told through the lens of Dan Caesar, CEO of Fully Charged Show. I was going to say Electric Vehicles UK, but you've actually, you're starting to pass over that responsibility. So that was totally incorrect. I am, but we've had a break, haven't we, over Christmas, so you'll forgive me. Do you know what? I should also say hello, I'm Imogen Bogle. I'm one of the presenters, producers, chief of content, whatever, here at Everything Electric. um but over christmas i totally forgot my email password i don't think that's happened to me for years um so for a few days i was locked out my email and i was very happy with that outcome to be honest there was a definite break like we had a bit of time off and that's you know that's distant distant memory now i mean the market and the year has started so quickly um yeah i don't know what my email password is my name is and i've been having to told my address most days these days I mean, it really is so discombobulating, just global politics, let alone the car market.

2:522026 has started with an incredible bang and not necessarily in a good way. Yeah. Well, that's it. I guess we've got a few things to cover today. It seems mad to me that we're in the second working week of January and yet there is still so much to cover. So very shortly, we're going to be getting into Solid State Donuts, Motor Show Madness and Stress East Atlantis. some good alliteration there from I think yours truly. But before we get into all of that, a little advert break. This episode is brought to you by Hankook. The Hankook Ion tyre is built exclusively for electric vehicles, engineered to deliver what EV drivers need most, confident grip, quietness, energy efficiency and long mileage.

3:37As the official tyre partner of Formula E, Hongkuk proves its EV technology is at the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion tyre on the road. So Dan, before we get into our stories, how are you? How's your first few weeks been? Good, yeah, I'm pretty good actually. I'm trying to kind of tune into the news once a day rather than hourly, which was my kind of modus operandi sort of the start of last year i'm trying to i guess new year's resolution be good to myself not read the news too much uh because it certainly is what's changing fast and uh it's not always in a good way so i'm very well i've just been to the brussels motor show which i'm sure we'll touch on uh last week actually i was with the department for transport in the uk they've just started trumpet blaring they've just started a new ev promotion campaign uh in the media called Get That Electric Feeling.

4:35Yeah, it's just started this week. And I was with them and their kind of agency, Saatchi, in Golden Square in London to talk through the campaign they're running to see if we can help amplify that campaign. So that was good. And Germany's announced it's going to start subsidizing EVs again, which is good, although I think they're adding plug-in hybrids and e-revs into that. and Canada has just said it's going to start accepting about I think 59 ,000 49 ,000 something like that EVs from China over the next year so amidst the gloom there is actually some some some bright bright news as well well those are three incredibly positive things but I suppose we'll reserve judgment until we've seen the campaign from the DFT however I have seen it I have seen it.

5:24How did you rate it? Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good. We had a sneak preview last week. So I was with them last week. And it's good. I mean, is it great? I think it's really, really good. I mean, the reality is that when it comes to how you talk about something, there's always going to be dogma. There's always going to be some people going, I don't like it. I do like it. I thought it was good. I think one of the key things about advertising, it needs to be disruptive and to be memorable. And I think it genuinely is. So I'm quite optimistic about that. And I'm just pleased that they're being so pro-EV.

5:56And obviously, they've got electric car grant, which is, even though some people might say that that's got its flaws as well, it's out there. They're funding it out to 2030. So I think we're in a much better position than some other countries I might mention. And we are in discussion with the Department for Transport to try and get a minister onto the podcast at some point. But as is often the case, their schedules are not necessarily that fun to try and find a little slot in. So I'll watch this space and that should be in the next couple of weeks or a couple of months. So shall we get into it?

6:29We have three stories today, starting, of course, with solid state doughnuts, holy grail or holy fail. Now, you might need to see that written down. The second holy, of course, had an E in it. We're referring to a hole in the ground. That's a little bit of a what do we what do we call you in the trade here? caption what captain clickbait well I think I think it's I think really that's true and that's fair but actually it's also just dad jokes really that's that's the the time of my life is I'm right in in dad joke territory and you know for me I delight in coming up with a really bad joke and then watching my kids faces fall as I tell it in front of their friends uh so yeah that's right up there holy grail or holy fail I mean I came into the um energy storage market um probably about 15 years ago and you know the development of lithium iron batteries hadn't really taken off at that point and there was obviously speculation that you know lithium iron was going to be the the holy grail of energy storage and so it is proving you know it's moving very very fast but the reality is new chemistries are coming all the time solid state being amongst those touted but we're already into an era of lfp and sodium iron and things like that very very exciting times follow all of the battery manufacturers really, really closely, including CATL, who produce the best part of 40 % of the world's EV batteries, BYD, obviously, huge mover and shaker in that market as well, and many others.

8:02And we do look at all these battery headlines with a degree of skepticism as to what's coming. But one really caught our eye, not least because it's called donuts lab which i think is a a good standout name but it talks about a five minute charge battery with a a hundred thousands uh cycle life um 400 watt hours per kilogram energy density a battery effective that can last for a hundred years so clearly that caught our eye i don't know if you saw that story as well i know robert's been down under and he he caught sight of that as well and was fascinated by its veracity and whether it was true or not.

8:41But I mean, it could have enormous ramifications for a whole range of different sectors. Well, that's it. And, you know, I think the 400 watt hour per kilo number is worth pausing on for a second, because that's largely considered this real target of energy density at the point at which things like electric flight become a bit more of a no brainer. You know, how much energy can be squeezed in a specific weight until that point, you know, So we're seeing incremental changes and certainly solid state generally is going to help create a bit of a step up with regards to energy density. But I always feel that if the numbers look a little bit too good to be true, they probably are.

9:20And there's no question that clearly they're doing something good at Donut Lab. But there is sort of a sentiment that perhaps some of their numbers are maybe slightly overstated or perhaps slightly premature in how they've said them. And there's a really fantastic article in Electric, which we'll link to, where he very fairly, the author that is, exercises some scepticism, safe to say. Well, it's not like we're in an industry where people have made huge claims that haven't come true. Of course, we are in that parallel universe. We've seen it time and time again. So, you know, part of me wonders how relevant it really is, you know, the degree at which battery chemistries have already improved, you know, the flash charging that's coming from places like BYD, the ultra fast charging that's coming from CATL, sodium ion, which degrades very slowly, etc.

10:11so part of me wonders how you know relevant or irrelevant this is but it is a really interesting story because it would change things significantly yeah i agree that's a great article it's kind of headlined uh this battery is about to change the world in three months or make this guy a fool which is a great a great setup for a for a story and it's got a lot of different comments i mean the the guy who's actually behind it uh is actually also chairman of verge motorcycles which we've featured on Everything Electric. So he's a kind of a legit businessman, entrepreneur, computer scientist. He's been pretty successful.

10:48But yeah, he has set himself up for huge success or the opposite by announcing this kind of miracle battery. And it seems like it won't be too long before we find out whether actually that's true or false. The article, which we'll put the link to as well, also does some digging as to the origins of this battery and what it might be. And it kind of basically points to a technology startup in Finland called Nordic Nano, which Donut Lab invested in. And actually, the doctor who sort of leads the research there, her focus is on amorphous titanium dioxide nanostructures. So that actually doesn't mean that much to me.

11:35Maybe it means more to you with your kind of engineering background or with the husband who's in the battery industry, you can tell me. Well, I think what's very clear is that there's definitely some elements of truth in this. And yes, it remains to be seen whether this will be in the market and within those verge mode fights later this year. But I think what we've seen many, many times in the battery industry is that these numbers can be reached in the lab. but it's whether they can be scaled that easily and whether the economics of scaling them can can make sense um really interestingly last week we were in a battery recycling facility in Plymouth which is absolutely fascinating because you know going into the future there's going to be a requirement for more recycled content in future batteries and of course more domestic content and right now we don't have a single one of the critical minerals that we need for batteries being supplied here in the UK.

12:28Should they be recycled here, however, suddenly we do have a domestic supply chain. And it was really interesting because it was definitely a test of my science brain. So it remains to be seen how well or not well I managed to convey that in the episode. But it's also interesting because they are having to recycle technologies that will lag by a few years the next generation of battery technologies because, you know, those batteries will exist in the market for some time. So, yeah, it was a good day out. It felt very educational. Yeah, well, I look forward to seeing the edit of that before everyone else.

13:03That's one of the perks of my job. But, yeah, I mean, batteries, I mean, isn't the end point here that we have moved so far in the last 10 years? And there's still a lot of ground to gain in the next 10 years that, you know, fighting vainly with, you know, inefficient combustion technology is a vain fight versus batteries. they've got to go much much further much much faster they're going to be much more energy dense irrespective but we hope the donut isn't a theory full of holes we hope it's real but you know we have been here before so let's let's uh let's see what let's see what happens over the next few months well i'd say to to mr donut lab if he is listening that yes we wish you success but just remember that you have a greater chance of people believing you and success if you share headlines at the right point and when you have sufficient levels of confidence in them um that is something that we've we've come across a couple of times um in various episodes and we definitely have had conversations where we'll say this is amazing but it would be better if we do this episode in a year's time when we can really showcase just how brilliant it is rather than at this point so we'll see but we could be all be proved wrong and uh verge motorcycles could be boasting a 400 watt hour kilo battery, which would be fantastic.

14:22Shall we move to story two?

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15:01Yes, so I think I have inadvertently become kind of Mr. EV Motor Show over the last few years. I've spent time developing our own events, as you know. We go to a lot of those ourselves. I get to a attend lots of events. Last year was unusual in that I traveled to some pretty far-flung events. We had our own fantastic Sydney show. Not long after that, I went to Shanghai, which was mind blowing. I was at Goodwood in the UK with you, which is always a great experience. Munich, not long after that. I'm missing some, I'm sure, but I've just been to the Brussels Motor Show. and at the same time more or less there was the CES Consumer Electronics and Technology Show in Las Vegas and I just couldn't help reflect on where we are in the cycle and it's not just about tech of course it's about politics too.

16:02So CES I haven't been to that one actually and I was asked are we filming there? We haven't filmed there very often in recent years and at the moment our focus isn't really looking in that direction we're not really looking west at too many stories at the moment uh there seems to be less going on in the us for no reason i could think of um so we we may have got an invite or two to ces but we we didn't go this time around and we knew there would just be less interesting ev stuff on display anyway meanwhile across the the channel uh the brussels motor show is growing quite healthily and there was a great article about ces which effectively said that detroit had basically deserted las vegas it had deserted that show and in fact there were more chinese manufacturers at the las vegas show than u.s car manufacturers including the likes of zika and geely and great wall motors all playing the long game knowing that you know uh no wall stands forever playing the really long game and being out there you know talking to uh californian consumers tech journalists etc which i thought was was fascinating in its own right i mean the tariffs are so punitively high there's no way they can economically offer or sell cars in america at the moment and that wall is starting to crumble with news about Canada.

17:32And so that will change and will be interesting to watch that over the next 18 months. But Brussels was fascinating. So if you go to the motor shows, you'll be aware, obviously, that the Chinese ones, Shanghai last year, be Beijing this year, they're a big deal. They're very much the cradle of new EV technology these days. I thought the Munich show was fascinating. It was amazing. Loads of battery EVs there from European brands and from some of the Korean brands and others as well so that was a brilliant show in its own right but in recent years actually one of the other shows that was kind of quite well known as being a big show Geneva sort of neutral territory if you like has gone away and Brussels is starting to fill that gap as neutral territory where both the Chinese and the other brands can kind of come to play and I think we're almost at peak motor show again it was big busy buzzy it wasn't on the same level as Shanghai, you wouldn't expect it to be, but it was big.

18:32And fundamentally, the Chinese were there in large numbers, but actually that has brought out all of the others to play as well. So it was really fascinating to walk around that show, see what was on display, but also to know is 2026, the last year where we have this many Chinese brands, isn't consolidation inevitable amongst all brands is this kind of peak motor show or will that phenomenon last for two or three years while the chinese are kind of bringing out the others out to to play i'm i'm i do think it's great the motor shows are back and they're big but i do think the overarching trend that motor shows are a thing of the past may still be something that we see uh in time but i mean they're great to attend right if you're a people watcher or you're you're a car watcher aren't they amazing to to walk around these shows we've walked around a few together well um i think the last one that i went to actually was geneva motor show which was a very as you might recall it was a the last one after its decades of history and it was a real damp squib apart from the reno 5 which was almost embarrassing because that was such a successful launch there was so much attention on it but the rest of it looked pretty embarrassing and obviously after that there's lots of news say well Geneva's Geneva's dead but it also proves that actually these motor shows have relevance and size and brilliance at particular points in time and right now Brussels is so important because we've had all of the conversations around and by way I mean you know the European Commission around the introduction of perhaps a European equivalent K car that's why the Twingo was there in such a huge way um so it was it felt watching from afar like a real statement of we are here and we are here to be very serious but we require certain conditions in order to guarantee our success for example laws and regulations european k car standard blah blah so it's cool to see really cool did you have anything that stood out to you that you saw i mean you're right it is a real moment in time there's lots of new products as well so that's obviously a big factor i mean it's actually quite hard really for me to say all the different cars that I saw I'm a big fan of the new BMW Neuer class cars that they've got coming out um but I looked around the hall I saw loads of things this is you know it's like being a kid in a sweet shop a sweet shop where you can't afford any of the suites by the way you know where you see all these different cars that you like so I saw some fantastic cars um but from from all of the different manufacturers really there's some amazing product out there um even saw a new Tesla Model S that we can't get here right hand drive in the UK that look pretty cool but I was on the stand with Xpeng for a bit they've got the new P7 plus which is which is great as you say some of the more smaller affordable stuff from from Renault in particular I mean the Kia and Hyundai are knocking it out of the park at the moment some great stuff from from BYD I mean pretty much everyone was there so it was you know from that perspective it was great but the one thing that stood out to me I think which I kind of had a wry smile on my face was there's a car of the year awards that they have more of a european car of the year awards that they they host the announce the winner there and it was busy you know they did a sort of live presentation um and the excellent vicky parrot kind of hosted that and brought in different judges and it was kind of had a eurovision vibe they do the scoring i don't know if you've seen them them do it it was really well executed really really well done nine cars were uh up to win the the one award um and i totally get this by the way i'm not being judgmental but of course none of the cars on the list were chinese it really is the europe's awards for for europe and i find it fascinating we're in that kind of moment in time where there is a little bit of there's a there's a kind of a sort of a slight artificiality to the whole thing because the european car comes there en masse because of the chinese there's an awards where the chinese don't get mentioned but it is a huge elephant in the room in any event there were some brilliant cars on the list i think all of them from european manufacturers bar uh bar won a kia um but the winner actually was the mercedes uh cla uh which is very very long range yeah so it was great to see that but they did all the eurovision style judging you know they went country by country you know how many points germany giving it etc etc and of course germany voted for mercedes you know uh uk voted for i don't know i think mercedes probably won that vote as well and mercedes won quite comfortably overall but it was i just had a wry smile on my face because i just thought it's a really interesting point where we're at now where the debate the fight for supremacy is still relatively friendly but i think it could get a little bit uglier uh still over the next two or three years as people sort of start to realize that actually there's just not enough share to go around so it was really really good show and i'm sure it'll be good next year as well but the long-term health of these motor shows like you said they're a moment in time and uh i do think that um it was great to see it kind of come roaring back um and and be so so good i had a well it's not a hard day at work as it let's be honest well whilst you were gallivanting around russle's motor show i was doing a shoot in sweden uh with the volvo ex60 which that looks amazing it is amazing it is amazing and there were a couple of people who a couple of journalists who were there who'd been at Brussels flew to Sweden for that shoot and then flew back to Brussels so it's cool to sort of be there and get a bit of a you know a snapshot of how everything was going in Brussels obviously everyone was losing their minds about the Kia EV2 and I can't say too much about the EX60 because the video comes out tomorrow and it's embargoed until then but it was that was a great car so I I was very happy that while still wasn't at Brussels, I did get to see this lovely new car from Volvo.

24:32So, yeah, that was good. No, it looks fantastic. And then they had the Polestar 5 in Brussels, which was fantastic as well. They had Hyundai's IONIQ 3 to come, the Staria. I mean, the list just goes on. I mean, it really is. I mean, for car design, I think it's a great, great time. Yeah. I know people sometimes label some of the EVs as being a bit samey looking, but actually I think this is a real kind of renaissance in car design. So yeah, it was a privilege to be there and have a look around. But ultimately, I know that when I go to Beijing in April, I'm going to see a lot more new product because actually the flow from last year's Shanghai show, I saw a lot of that then at our shows.

25:17I saw that at the Munich show. I've seen it at the Brussels show. So I think actually the beginning of a lot of this stuff actually is now China. And so Beijing, I expect to see a lot more new products, but more products, more affordability, cheaper cars, all these sorts of things. It's got to be good for the consumer. It's got to be good for EV uptake ultimately.

25:40I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan & Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said$20 ,000 ,000 ,000 won. $20 ,000 ,000 is an insane number. Yeah,$20 ,000 ,000 recovered. It's actually, I think, somewhere north, probably closer to$22 ,000 ,000,$23 ,000 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

26:14Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan & Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. It's pound 529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 24-7, 365. Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan & Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. Perhaps segues, perhaps seamlessly, maybe clunkily, remains to be seen to our third story.

26:51You wrote Stressy's Stellantis, but the actual headline was, Stellantis' European boss has admitted there is currently no natural demand for electric vehicles, with carmakers left burning cash. I imagine this headline made you a little bit cross. I am trying my best to remain level-headed and calm. I think for me, I identified long ago that being kind of a rebel rouser on the outside of the industry really serves no useful purpose apart from to ensure you're not invited to everything. At the same time, I guess our role is quasi-journalistic in nature and we need to be able to ask difficult questions.

27:36but I've taken the view of late that actually I want really want to help all the car companies to you know access the audience that we have to you know I guess take the the cleanest line of least resistance to to selling these cars and I do have a lot of sympathy actually the closer I've got to the car industry the more sympathy I have with the dilemmas that you know car executives face on a daily basis so to see a story like this claiming those no natural demand for ev yeah it did it sort of it got the neurons firing i wasn't very happy when i read it because i thought that's kind of that's kind of really lazy critique of what's what's actually uh going on um and And rather than just sort of kind of rage against that, I think for me, it speaks psychologically to the pressure that is on some of these companies.

28:37Because that statement is so provably false, so utterly ridiculous that this is me pulling my punches, by the way. You know, from my standpoint, it speaks to a lot of internal strife at some of these companies. And again, I have huge sympathies. How do you make this work in a fast-changing world? How do you make cars profitably full stop? But some of the stresses that Stellantis and others are going through are fundamentally down to the whole market and not just EV. But some execs have convinced themselves that actually it's EV that's the bug. It's EV that's the problem. But there's a lot more going on there, like in terms of the cost of supply chains and other things.

29:29And the consumer very, very clearly wants EV. You know, we have engaged with Stellantis a little bit over the years. And actually, I think they're doing quite a good job bringing brands and new cars to market. There's some really, really good stuff. um i have been told you know when i've spoken to them about doing the shows that we do for example that you know there's never any kind of money in the pot and and having seen them do a big motor show in in manchester recently having seen the size of their stand in in brussels i'm afraid i've been you know slightly gulled by by that but yeah but you know excuses aside i i really would love to see everyone survive i just don't see how they can i'd love to see stellantis survive i think they're doing some really interesting things they've got some great vehicles it's good that they've got leap motors as part of their stable now as well um so i'm i'm totally on their side so i wonder how a comment like this lands internally because on one hand you've got leap motors as a commitment you know which really is only about selling pure evs or i think they've got some some range extended electric vehicles as well hope to film with them soon uh what i've heard they're really really good um equally you've got lots of people within the stellantis organization trying to sell ev to say there's no natural demand though to me is must be infuriate some of the people within the business itself and that i think is the danger if the culture is not all facing in the same direction you know that really is a comment which says we want to go back to the past yeah um and that isn't true we know when people get in evs that 92 of them this is global ev alliance figures will never go back to combustion engine vehicle we know the sales figures are up in almost every market but what he's saying is they need stimulus and subsidy and incentive to survive there is stimulus and subsidy and incentive some of it over the long term some of it's still there for fossil fuel uh industry you know and ultimately if you're going to moan about the fact that it takes subsidy and incentives, you should also be moaning about the fact that there's so much misinformation, industrial scale misinformation over a period of something like 15 years that of course, it's a little bit harder to sell pure EVs than you might originally have thought.

31:53But that's the misinformation. And I don't see people complaining about that. So I do find it to be a source of real frustration. So this is turning into a diatribe, but there is natural demand. It's sometimes being suppressed by doubt, fear, uncertainty, all those things, which is just maybe delaying people. But if you really want the market to go a little bit faster, in a way that car companies really want, I think, because you've got to develop these cars over years, product lifestyle, marketing, you don't want to chop and change. You don't want the market to be seesawing all the time. You want it to be more predictable.

32:29And the misinformation piece is a big part of that. So adding to that misinformation directly from the mouth of someone at a car company is really disappointing to see. And the thing is, with the benefit of the doubt hat on, when he's looking at the impact to natural demand, I do think that there is a reaction from consumers that should the rules change, for example, the 2035 deadline or the nature around that 2035 deadline, or if subsidies are removed it does send a signal to the market to say oh we've told you to go in this direction and now we're having doubts about that soz and so it does instill that doubt or perhaps makes people a little bit more hesitant to make those decisions and especially for a brand like Stellantis who you know they they cover a broad cross-section of different price points they're impacted at every single different point in the market um so that's my benefit of doubt hat on But the harsher hat that I'll now put on instead is like, well, if you don't think there's a demand and you don't think there's a natural demand, work harder to make that demand.

33:33Make your products desirable. Like, otherwise, you're just complaining. And we don't have space for moaning myrtles here in this industry. A hundred percent. But, you know, as soon as this issue, as soon as this topic, as soon as the sector became political, that was a really super bad sign. Yeah. I think any new market needs some pump priming. It needs some of that. That's inevitable. We live in a world now where lots of people have platforms on LinkedIn and everywhere else. And you can't help notice recently that BYD overtook Tesla for sales. Did you hear about that on LinkedIn? I heard about it 7 ,000 times on my feed in about three days.

34:11So everyone's got an opinion, but the reality is that EVs are a cheaper, better technology, and that's ultimately why they will win. Of course, there's going to be fighting about that. Of course, there's going to be people who try and resist that. But it is frustrating to see it from quite a senior figure because that is misinformation. There is natural demand for EVs. And yes, there would be much, much more so if we all work together to rid ourselves of misinformation that has kind of blighted this subject. You know, the reality is that whatever you think, whatever the statements like that do, what they don't do is they don't deter the Chinese and other companies, other countries from making better products.

34:55They will keep coming. They will keep doing this ultimately. So if you don't take care of the future, the future will take care of you. Yeah. And in a couple of weeks time, I'm going to Paris to interview the CEO of Renault Group, Fabrice. And I feel having read this article, it's perhaps time to reach out to the European boss of Stellantis and say, look, European boss of Stellantis, Emmanuel Capilano, are you being a moaning myrtle? Let's have a little chat and see what we can do. um but those are i think i've made that harder today but you know from my perspective you know it is it is frustrating i i i actually have a lot of sympathy like if you say something which is kind of real world and it's hard and i totally get that but saying things like that that definitely that's triggered me i have to say um well that does conclude our three stories today oh but i have just seen, sorry, I've just seen this at the bottom of that article, that Tanya Sinclair, our lovely chief executive of Electric Vehicles UK, was quoted in that article.

36:00So pop points to Tanya. Yeah, she was. Yeah. No, I mean, fundamentally, that was run in the Telegraph and GB News and elsewhere. But, you know, her might be a good end note, really. She said, you know, the environment is challenging, but one thing remains consistent. Consumer demand for electric vehicles is real. And she reminds us that prices have become more competitive, choice is expanding and vehicle quality continues to improve that's you know a good end note really it's not like battery evs are going to go away they're going to get better and better and better and the sooner that people stop ostriching about that start accepting that um the better for all of us i think 100 um so we'll move to our last little segment which is now i've got the name I've changed the name each time.

36:50Peaks and troughs, winds and fails, ups and downs. I mean, whatever you want, Imogen, you know. Roses and thorns, but you know, you name it. Roses and thorns. But who's on the up, who's on the down in your opinion this week? Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I mean, I think for me, Canada's on the up, I would say. I think that is a very sensible decision to break from Trump is kind of looming, towering over the news cycle at the moment. I think Canada had been given very little choice but to start to seek partnerships elsewhere. And we're seeing a lot of this. You know, America is the kind of lodestone of culture.

37:32That's changing. And actually, America is doing brilliant PR for China and Chinese stability and Chinese sort of future thinking. So I think for me, Canada has made a really, really smart decision. downs of the week i'm trying to think of uh anything notable i mean i think i would just start on a positive note i think years started quite quite well in the eeve sector um i think from from my standpoint um brussels motor show was was was great i i think downs of the week i don't know if i've got anything i'm particularly feeling motivated inside the eeve industry this week but i'm sure if you ask me outside of the industry i could i could say what is going on with greenland but that that's another that's another subject maybe we need to tie that to minerals and resources at some point um that is a whole nother kettle of fish well on that note we probably should leave it there but i'm going to say that next week um i will be in the netherlands so i'll be recording from the netherlands where i will have just interviewed the ceo of wind race trucks so i'll have more to report on that next week um but in the meantime dan i hope you have a wonderful rest of your week uh to everyone listening thank you so much for joining us for this podcast please do like and subscribe and share with a friend and all of the things that honestly we can't tell you enough how much we appreciate them um but that's it if you have been thank you for listening and watching