The Fabulous and the Falling Apart: Sarah Hoover on Writing The Motherload

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27:22I want to talk a little bit about and I know it's like obviously uncomfortable but that's what we're here to do is the your past experiences that had really like triggered you in the hospital that kind of like put you in this spiral into postpartum which was like you know having a body that had been touched in ways that were you know outside of your autonomy as like a young girl living here which I had been through that many times too and so you know I thought it was yeah I you wrote it really beautifully with like this really clear, like understanding of like the loss of, I don't, I, it was really interesting to read because I didn't feel that way, but I was like, oh, it would have taken not much to help have me feel that way.

28:06You know? Oh, I, at the time when I was in labor with my firstborn, I don't think I connected the dots that the way I felt out of control of my own body was so traumatizing to me because of having been sexually assaulted in my 20s. It took a long time for me to figure that out. And there's not a lot of like research about it, even though one in three women has been sexually assaulted. So obviously I'm not the only person in the history of the world who felt triggered in labor. You know, it's like the same area of your body. Right. So like, obviously, I'm not alone. Strange nurses come in and God bless them.

28:41But like you're not I mean, they don't really prepare you for that mentally that you're going to go and you're not going to these nurses. Their shifts change. So this strange group of women is constantly and they just come in and like put their hands inside of you and keep moving and that they're not explaining anything to you. They're trying to just do their job. Yeah. But they're not trained on the emotional side. Not all of them. Well, I think very few of them. I mean, I've like looked into this a lot, you know, my recovery and trying to heal myself. A lot of what I did was just try and like learn everything I could about what labor and delivery can look like, what it's supposed to look like.

29:13And And there's a type of nurse that works in emergency rooms called SANE nurses, which is an acronym. They are the kind of nurses that are trained to perform rape kits on sexual assault victims. They are not even trained in how to deal with traumatized women. Yeah, they don't receive like extra training on the emotional side of things. So think about it. If they aren't given that tool book, then like what doctor would be, you know? So I don't I don't blame anyone who took care of me in that first labor and delivery for not knowing how to deal with someone who in her 20s had like had really negative experiences with men.

29:49It's not part of medical school. It's not like they failed medical school and they were bad doctors. They're just trained in a system that was like invented by white dudes who don't think about these things. I'm happy you said that because I think it's really nice to not blame people for not knowing any better. oh my god freeing totally and i didn't you know sometimes people come up to me and go who is your doctor and why did she do that to you what's her name and i'm like oh my god this is so not about her so she's actually was really cool in a lot of ways and a smart and accomplished woman she just didn't know better and most doctors don't know better and she reached out to you since the book came out no she hasn't and that's okay and i don't know she's read it and like i didn't i didn't write it to villainize her or for like redemption, you know, nothing like that.

30:32I just wanted women to know that if you have had these kinds of experiences in your life, as so many women have, it can come up for you when you're in labor or when you're in a medical setting and that there are ways that you can advocate for yourself that can make that smoother for you and less traumatic for you. Can you talk about some of those? We talked about it. Yes. Like you don't have to put your feet in stirrups. Yeah. I never know that. Right. Like you think like, oh, they're not going to be able to examine me if I don't. But like, it's fine. You can put your feet in like a butterfly position.

31:02I mean, different doctors have different things. You can request a plastic speculum, which is lighter and less painful for women usually. And it's not cold because it's plastic. I think, you know, someone told me and I don't know what that brand is called, but they even have ones that you can order yourself and bring to a doctor's appointment. Yeah. It's been like private equity, you know, you can insert your own speculum. You can ask your doctor to agree upon language with you before an exam begins where you can say like, if I say stop, you have to immediately stop what you're doing. And if I say out, you have to take your hands out of my body.

31:36You can ask your doctor to please tell you on a scale of one to 10, the amount of pain she thinks that you are likely to experience. You can ask her how much time a procedure or something that she's going to do is going to take. You can time it on your iPhone. You can ask her to narrate things for you, you know, and tell you exactly what's going to happen as she's doing it. You can ask her for silence. You can play music. You can bring a towel with essential oils on it that is a smell that makes you feel comforted or distracts you. You can do breathing exercises. You You can ground yourself by, you know, through your breathing saying like two things you see, two things you hear, two things you smell.

32:16Like there's all sorts of stuff that you can do in those moments. Did you have a doula with Fred who helped you with this? Yes, I had a doula with Fred and I also had found a wonderful woman via Instagram who's called the Feminist Midwife. And she we walked through my labor together and she was like, these are the things that I think likely were really scary for you and kind of put you in a state of being really detached and made it so that you couldn't connect with your baby once he came out. and these are ways around that. She's a literal midwife. So she was like, these are things you can do that will not get in the way of your medical care, but that will make you feel more safe.

32:48And I did them all and it worked and I had a beautiful birth. And when Fred came out, I was like magically in love with her. I got the birth that like people tell you about. And by the way, I still had the epidural and all the, I wanted all the drugs. Like I didn't want to feel pain. That was not for me. I don't do that either. But I didn't want, I think for a lot of women, they don't want to have birth in a hospital because they can foresee the ways that that super patriarchal system can damage them and they're afraid of it and rightly so it fails so many women especially women of color like i just want to say especially women of color we know this data it's not improving we're like the worst in the developed world recently who was like in labor it was like a beautiful black woman and she was like i'm having the baby and they were like no you're not and they sent her home no like why they just didn't listen to her no they just don't listen to her she's suing and then she went she had she like gave birth outside the hospital I was just nothing.

33:39It's just the lack of listening to a patient is is. And it's disproportionately not listening towards women and even more disproportionately not listening to women. OK, like we know this so fucked up. And so I think you really have to go into those scenarios knowing how to advocate for yourself. And even if you do, sometimes in the moment, like I can't send a salad back if it's made wrong. No, how am I going to be able to say to a doctor in a moment where I'm scared I'm going to die? I don't like this. Stop. You need to explain this. So, yes, with Fred, even though I probably was like so prepared, I didn't need it.

34:12I had a doula because I just could not. I knew that if I got postpartum depression again, I would kill myself. Yeah, I was so close the first time or that I would kill Tom and no one no one needed to die. So I was like, I just need to like power up, get my bodyguards in place. And I had a doula and she was like, wonderful. And the only moment that anything sucked in that whole labor and delivery. She, hours after my baby was born, it was like six in the morning. You know, it was still dark. It was dark in the room. I was holding my baby. I delivered her maybe four hours before. My doula was like, I'm going to go pee.

34:46I'll be back in one minute. She like went to the bathroom that was in the, you know, right there. A man comes in, throws the door open, flips the lights on, doesn't introduce himself. I'm here to take out your epidural. And I say to him, could you please wait? My doula just went to the bathroom. she'll be out in literally one minute. And that to him is so annoying probably by the way. And he goes you need a doula to have your epidural removed? And I was like sir have you ever had an epidural? Like you don't get to comment on what I need to feel safe in this moment. No. Because again I like froze.

35:21And by the way Isn't it annoying how those situations always happen in life and you leave and you're like what the fuck's been doing? But you know what I did? And you were training for this. What did you do? I did complain to the hospital later when I got my wits about me because I was like it was the most beautiful experience of my life. How dare you take even one second? All he had to do is poke his head in and say, hey, I'm here to take out your epidural. I'm going to turn the light on, OK? And it would have been fine. I'm not asking for like someone to bend over backwards. I'm asking for human decency.

35:47No, it's really basic. You're in a natal ward. You know, you would think that there would be a level of coziness. Totally. Like a little bit of empathy for the people that you're around, you know? and so I did complain because I just didn't want him to do that to other people and like that's why that woman who's suing it's like I'm so glad because these systems don't change unless people tell the hospitals that it's not working for them you know it's like they they kind of need that to be encouraged to become better and it's like brave I mean it sucks to sue somebody I'm sure like on both sides.

36:24It's probably terrible. But like, how else do you affect? I don't know how else you make these systems change. They're so entrenched, you know. Was Tom nervous about the coming of Fred? Like, could you see that he was kind of on edge or how you guys you were feeling very grounded and stable in your relationship? Or was this something that he was? I was grounded and stable in myself. And he felt that. And I felt like I felt like no matter what happened, I knew that I could count on myself. And that is the thing that mattered to me the most. Like my foundation was so rock solid going into that. I had done so much work that I was like, you can do whatever.

37:03Like you can show up for me and our marriage will be better and our family unit will be stronger or you can fail me, but I will still be good. And he showed up for me and it was all good, but I didn't feel like my self-worth and my happiness was dependent on him showing up, which I really recommend to women because women come up to me often and say, how do I make it so that like my husband is more empathetic this time? I want to have another baby, but I'm scared it will like be the end of our marriage. And I'm like, you have to be OK with that because you have to know deep down that the only thing you really need in this life is connection to yourself and to your own gut and your intuition.

37:42Him showing up for you is the cherry on the Sunday. But if he doesn't like you're good. You are all powerful. Women are so all-knowing, like you've got this and you have to have faith in that. And then you can say to him, like, you're not doing right by me and here's what I expect. And if he still can't show up for you, like, you know, that's a different drama. But you can't depend on anyone else. I went into my own place with my second birth. Afterwards, he was like, you really didn't. He's like, the first one, you really like leaned on me. And I was like, yeah, I didn't. I was like, you could be here or not.

38:13Literally that. Like, and thank God he was, you know, whatever. And then he ended up having to go to work the next day. And I was like, I got this. He had to go to work the next day. And I got up and I laid the baby down and I showered myself and I did my skin hair. Like, I was like, you can pick me up whenever. I'm like, I'm packed. Like, I'm good. Like, I was so, yeah, I like went to another place and I was like, I need you to just sit there and I know that you're here, but like, I'm doing my thing with my body. I'm not saying your expectations have to be totally non-existent for this person and the bar is so low.

38:40That's not what I'm saying. You can still be disappointed in a man. You can still be upset with them for not showing up in the way that you need them to or whatever. but you have to know that like you do have this you know and you have to prepare yourself to be able to stand alone and have it you owe that to yourself and then when they show up right great well think about also how much older you are the second time around how many you know becoming a parent regardless of the experience just makes you so much wiser on so many levels it thrusts you into adulthood I mean and these little kids they really they hold a mirror up to you so if you're not like learning a lot from that experience, then it's almost willful, you know?

39:17What's their age difference? Six years. They're really different. Have a big age difference just because I have a lot of friends who did that. I am totally look, I had no choice. I was recovering from my postpartum. I thought I'd never have a kid again. Then I had a loss. Then I had to do IVF. Like it played out the way it played out. But I don't hate it. My kid who's eight is like very self-sufficient. And when we hang out, it's like almost like friends, you know, it's almost like adults. I know your relationship looks really cute. He's the best. And then I have this like little baby whose needs are completely different, but they don't compete for me on the same terms.

39:54Like, you know, he doesn't need his diaper changed or whatever. And I think like, as we were saying, we both want a third if we're lucky enough to have it. I that will be different because my daughter will be like three when the next baby comes or four or whatever and so it will it will look different and I know that'll I mean your kids are really close in age right there are three years it's perfect yeah it'll be three if we do again in the fall if I'm lucky enough too it'll be around three years which I think it's nice to get time totally with your especially like you know he's been through like an autism diagnosis and all of that with her we kind of like we were so happy and then we were like maybe some things and then we just but even before that Davide was like I want time yeah with this person before there's another person and I do think you have to kind of like trust the way the universe unrolls it all for you always yeah I know I had Jennifer Fisher on the podcast this morning and she tried for so long to get pregnant IVF this that like to the end of the world and back and said I can't do this anymore and then had two natural pregnancies after stop you hear that over and over though right like the minute women don't put pressure on themselves like the universe delivers and I'm always careful about saying that because I said that once because when I stopped trying is when I had Carmella after a loss and I was supposed to do IVF and all this and we got pregnant naturally and in a moment of like pure bliss it was the first time we had had sex without trying to try you know our sex had become so mechanical and that's like so much of like our fucking life and relationship is like our beautiful sex life and your passion and it's like it was like so sad and we had her the first night that we didn't try you know and I wrote about it once and I got you know know, some mom saying how like it's unfair to put that hope.

41:34And I was like, I get what you're saying for your experience. I understand completely. Imagine trying so hard and then hearing some girl like if you just don't try, you get a baby. So I understand everyone's perspective. But I do think that there is something God-y and whimsical about letting like time do its thing. Well, I remember when I was about to start IVF, the pandemic hit. So I had to wait. and or yeah, I think IVF clinics were closed. I might be like confusing the chronology, but my OBGYN had told me during the pandemic, I had like six women who were on like their third round of IVF trying so hard.

42:12And when the clinics closed and they couldn't do it anymore, they all got pregnant naturally. And I was like, whoa, because they just like took the expectation out. I mean, yes, I think it is probably like when you're in a place where you want a baby and you can't have one, there's no greater desperation. in the world so hearing anything from someone who has what you wanted is probably annoying and i see that women that is probably frustrating for women but your experience does show you that sometimes the universe really does just provide and like having faith in that i mean i hear a lot from people like oh my god i'm so sorry you went through this postpartum depression which is obviously so sweet but i'm like no no like the universe gifted me this you got your marriage back.

42:54I got to redefine what my life looks like. And I got a chance at really spending time and doing the work to know what makes me happy. And I mean, happy sounds like a frivolous word, but to know what makes me feel whole and what makes me feel like I'm at home in myself and to work on like all the traumas that had happened in my past. And it just like makes you more bulletproof as a person when the world redirects, when the universe redirects you and like hands you, I don't know, things that on the surface are hard, but like I never, I didn't think ever for one second that I was going to be a writer until this thing like befell me.

43:31And I totally pivoted careers. I mean, my entire, my daily life is different. Every detail of my life is different because of it in a good way. It's incredible.

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47:17And now you're going to have a show. I hope so. I mean, you never know with these things, right? Like Hollywood's so tricky, but yes, we're in development. So I'm really hopeful because I think that we all love a certain kind of TV that is missing. Like, what are your girly shows right now? I'm like, I'm reduced to reality TV because I'm like... I don't even, do you watch reality TV? What do you watch? Well, I don't watch anything so religiously because like I have a two-year-old. Yeah, I don't either. I'm not like, and I'm like a big reader, which I need to do for my work. I just want to say the reading time competes with the TV time.

47:48Totally. I also like TikTok. Right. Really low-brow. So like we have other things that take up our brain space. But I like when I when I'm packing or cleaning my closet and I need background noise, like I love a real housewife. Yeah, I do New Jersey. Yeah, that's a great one. Like I still watch Sex and the City all the time. Well, of course, it's brilliant all the time. And don't you find that it's so endure? I mean, like there are things about it that are so annoying, but also there are things about it that are so enduring that you're like, oh, I didn't even when I watched this to begin with realize how profound this actually was.

48:22Every time I'm like, oh, my God. Like, wait a minute. They were so right about that. I know it's like the more life experience you have, the more the episode. I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I'm like, oh, my God, that happened to Carrie an episode like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like so crazy. But I mean, you do this with your pocket. I mean, you do this in so many ways. Like I want to make content that women can connect to it because that like feeling of being at home or with your girlfriends and like watching a TV show or listening to a podcast where you're like, oh, there are other people out there like loving the same shit I am and thinking about the world the same way as I am.

48:51Like it's so fulfilling as a girl to have that. And I'm like, we need a good show. yeah so i'm psyched i hope that mine you know will be on the air soon i hope that it even like the first the beginning of the book where you are like at chateau and you're like throwing your what did you call it a sip and see because he's already born so it's not like a baby shower you know i've done i love a sip and see i've been to many sip and sees and so like but i am also so similar to you so my postpartum manifested in i'm keeping it going right like that like we like i I gave birth to Carlo at noon on Thursday.

49:30I left the hospital noon on Friday, five o 'clock. I hosted an investor dinner at our house. Insane. For Davide's brand. Don't you think it's a red flag, though, when women cling so hard to those aspects of their identity? It's like a red flag. It should be a red flag to the people around them that like something's not right. Yeah, I don't. I feel like I made it. It's been two years and the shoe hasn't dropped yet, but like it could. like I'm like I can't I'm so like I'm not gonna let it take over my life I'm not gonna do that like I'm gonna keep it going I'm gonna keep it going I'm gonna keep it going and I do and it's not healthy it's like preservation though because you know and like I mean women can do anything like you can do it all it's just I'm scared of being I don't want to sit in a room quietly and like just look at a beat like isn't that crazy to say I can't like when it's too much slowness.

50:23I know you feel like you're like failing. I think it's also because I have so much financial pressure on my shoulders. There you go. That I'm kind of like if I'm not doing something to like keep it moving forward, like everything's going to go like I have a lot of imposter syndrome. But by the way, like you're kind of right because it will everything is so vulnerable when you're the person that, you know, the weight of the world is on your shoulders. Like, I don't think that it's a rational role. Totally. So I like this is not like I did this. to my, but yeah, I just vary with like, if you didn't don't do it, who's going to do it?

50:55And you know that. So you put a ton of pressure on yourself. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I feel that I do that as well, but I guess like, do you feel in your flow and in your power and like empowered by it all? Like, are you in your happy place? Yeah, somehow it's like worked. Great. Okay. So then it's not bad. No, I've never, I'm like, we literally two nights ago before I flew here, I had to go, I never go to events, but I like, I had an annoying day. I had to drive to West Hollywood and work. And then I came home and then I drove back to West Hollywood for an event and I made sure I marinated a chicken before I left.

51:26Of course you did. I like, I like how to, I like my mom put it in the oven at like six. So by the time I got home at seven, we could all stay down and my kids, like I let them stay up late so we could, I could see them before I left the next day. No. And they were being so cute. And I, I was, Carla was doing everything insane. And then Carmela was being just like perfect. And I just started crying. I was like, I love this so much. I was like I right now feel and I'm sure you probably feel this way too and I don't want to be that I think I also don't I think I've seen so many moms here's where this probably comes from I've seen so many moms who like give birth and they have their whole thing and they're like I was never anything until you got here and like that whole thing to me seems so if it's true for them I feel a little sad in a way because every human's potential is so much more that's what I've that's what I've always felt and so I'm kind of like there's there's a lot of language around the expectation that your child is going to solve these problems for you that your child is going to increase your marriage that your child is going to give you purpose I no one's solving any problems for you but you and I so not a baby not a husband my anti all of this is like I am fine without like this is all a bonus it is a bonus and the chaos I like really love I love the chaos I thrive in chaos yeah this is a very personality specific thing to me but my like triggery things around motherhood were this like you complete me and then I think a lot of those people are raising kids that are like very kid-centric and I think the whole world revolves around them and there's a lot of anxiety and this pressure for this kid and this mom and this thing and this and like i don't i just want everything to be like chill and i want to cruise and you're so good at like bringing your kids with you places and you travel so well with them and you just have to because otherwise they get not used to it i agree and like i feel like fred needs to be in paris once a month i could thank you she needs her auntie what's fred's european summer.

53:31Fred's going to France this summer. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They just get like, you know, you just got to give them, but they understand like social dynamics and there's some kind of, you know, it's just like a nice thing. I also think it's really important for kids to know that they're not allowed everywhere and that parents go on vacation without them and that that means that they're like, okay. And sometimes mommies don't come home because they have work or parties or travel or whatever. My parents are really good about that with me too. How do you feel being away from the kids? They're not with you on this trip, right?

53:57and how does it feel? I was with them alone for 10 days. My mom and Davide were gone and I had the best 10 days ever. We were early to school. We were dancing in the kitchen. I would sit on the couch with them every night with a little glass of wine, listening to classical music, crying out of joy. Amazing. So yeah, no, I can have that and then I can leave for three days to do my thing and I feel zero bad about it. Do I miss them? Duh. Sure, yeah. But also they're fine. they're chilling. I try and think of the fact that everything is in phases. Yes. And sometimes your phase is 10 days with your kids and you're not getting tons of work done, but you're really present with them.

54:38And sometimes your phase is three days or a month or whatever it is, hustling somewhere else. And I mean, you've been very busy. Yeah, I was gone for like a month. Yeah. And also when I was on my hardback tour, I was gone at this really specific time in Fred's life. And it was so crazy because like, I loved my job when I worked in the art world. I loved it. I had the best time, like no notes. Was it my calling? Probably not. Writing is my calling. Like when I'm writing, it feels like the thing I am most meant to do. I feel home. I feel like if it were illegal, I would do it anyway. Like there's no stopping me.

55:15Right. And my book comes out and it's like, you know, I went on this tour. I was lucky enough to get to go like meet women who were reading my book and it was really cool, but I was away for a really long time and like I missed her first steps. And it was so interesting to me because I finally had landed in the, I hear from women all the time, how do I know what I want to do with my life? And I remember feeling that way. I remember being in this gallery job that was so rad, but not feeling like it was. But we didn't even bring it up. So like you worked at Kikosian. Yeah, I worked at like the best art gallery in the world.

55:47Okay. Such a big fucking deal. Yeah. And you like. It was incredible. It was so cool. It was like, it was. And that's how you met Tom. And that's how I met my husband. And I loved my job. And I was, I've always had so much. Did Cook work there? Yes. We sat next to each other for a decade. He's my best friend. Cool. And we spent, I mean, I loved the job. It was so exciting and dynamic and like glamorous in my way, which isn't, you know. I'm excited for this part of the show, by the way. Right. Like you moving here, going to school, getting that job. You talking about your besties, like talking about Augusta.

56:21Wait, what's your other friend's name? Petunia and Agusta. Oh, yeah, Petunia and Agusta, which those names, too, are just like so fabulous. Well, they're made up. I know, but the real names are even better. But like that's what I'm saying, like the like you building out Augusta and Petunia. It's going to be so fun. Petunia is going to be like I can see them so clearly. Like the way that you built the world to be. I was so engulfed in the book as it was like a series, like that I was just like drinking up. Well, I always felt like kind of an outsider, right? Because like I'm from Indiana. I'm not like I didn't grow up in that world.

56:52But so I came to it with like my eyes so big and it was so sink or swim. And it was I got like thrown into the deep end and it was so fun. And the art world is so incredible because it's wildly sophisticated. It's like these people who understand the most complex concepts and who travel all over the world and see the best art that humans are capable of making. But it's not glamorous because it's like money. It's not like glamorous the way Hollywood is because there's all these like rich celebrities. It's glamorous because there's all these weirdos and eccentric people and you get to be around people who are outside of the box thinkers and are imagining better worlds for us.

57:31How was it weaving the art into the writing of the book? It's so beautiful. Thank you. I loved it. I actually had more in it that got edited out because my, you know, publishers feel like it's, they wanted it to be a really digestible read, which I understood. And I like, you know, thinking about how I can get some of it into the show, because obviously art history is so important to me. So I keep seeing these like scenes and then it's like something, it's like the scene happens, right? But then there's these moments in shows where they'll like pull back and it's like the stars narrating something.

58:01Yeah. Like in Sex and the City when she's like writing her articles, you know? Yes. And I'm like, do I do that with art history? Do I make it about art? Yes. And I think you I think like a scene happens and then you like pause it and you narrate like this painting and how it relates back to the thing. We all need that, by the way. Like who would love that? And it like gives you a little tidbit to talk about it at dinner party or whatever. I think it's fabulous and it's cool and it can be like done in such a beautiful way. And we like deserve to ingest that kind of information. Totally. It's such an antidote to like the crap that we see on social media and whatever.

58:33and I don't know I mean the world was so cool and it's is so the opposite of what I think most people perceive of as glamorous today which is just like how famous are you how many followers do you have and how much money do you have and how many times have you flown on a private jet I'm like you guys are missing it real glamour is interesting people who have crazy ideas and live crazy lives and do whatever the fuck they want that makes them happy New York is is just for that it makes me so sad that no other place that really has that going for it and this neighborhood in particular and where we are right now i'm so happy to be in this neighborhood it's true i remember like i'm moving here out of like pasadena my like private school going to parsons and get like thrusted into this like crazy group of people and like learning about art and graffiti writers and this and that and like drugs but like all like and you know what's incredible is like people who grew up in the city who had i mean i remember hanging out with a kid who's there was like They had the first pool in their fucking apartment building uptown.

59:30And he was equally just as good as friends with kids whose parents lived in an artist loft that was three generations. He put no money. You just money, all of that shit. It never matters. It's always about how interesting you are. I don't know if it's still as much like that in New York as in our time in New York. Definitely not. We were the last people, I think, to really enjoy. Yeah, I think the way the internet has exploded has sort of changed that. But I remember like... It's so expensive here now. Yes. But going out in like our early 20s in New York was so interesting because, of course, you could like go to the clubs where whatever you had to spend a jillion dollars to get a table and, you know, be all dressed up.

1:00:07But like the places that we probably went out every night of our lives that were downtown. I remember like they wouldn't let girls in who are wearing like party dresses and stuff because like it wasn't cool. They let people in who looked interesting and cool. They didn't care if you were buying a bottle because there were no bottles. It was, you know, like I would wear like no makeup. I had my nipples pierced. I would wear like a see-through shirt. Dirty hair. The dirtier my hair. So I had like a nose ring for a second. I was like, I'm not wearing, you know what? I got a boob job. And when I came out of anesthesia, like literally like my open my eyes and I said to my friend, New York Pia would have never gotten a boob job.

1:00:45That is so West Coast that you got a boob job. I know. It is not. It's like, I know. It's like, I don't like really know any girls with boob jobs here. Maybe I do. they're older. They get boob jobs because they want to look like they looked before they had kids or something, but not boob jobs because they want. No, it's not me just being like, I want big boobs, bigger titties. Yeah, that's a different aesthetic, I think, for sure. I don't know. It's like so funny. It's because the women whose beauty I looked up to in that era of my life were it was like the time of the off-duty model. And I'm not talking about the off-duty Bella Hadid.

1:01:24I'm talking about girls whose names you didn't know. By the way, there was no injections. There was no Botox. There was no lip flip. There was no nose jobs. It was girls who, like, didn't know how to wear a bra and wore their, like... This is when it became best when she did, like, Erin Wasson when she did, like, the Alexander Wang show. The coolest-looking person possible who, you know, they were wearing... She lived right here. No, oh, really? She was... I mean, it's the best neighborhood. Wearing, like, their boyfriend's gross dirty rock T-shirts. Oh, yeah, you just said this on Isaac's thing.

1:01:48You said the best neighborhood in New York City was the East Village. I know. And people are like, and I think I said something like because it hasn't changed. It has changed so much. And I'm like, OK, sure. Like, you know, restaurants close. It's New York. Things are always changing. It's very similar. But of all the neighborhoods and all of the downtown neighborhoods, what has retained its spirit? We still have Sunny and Aries. Exactly. Like in the East Village and the Lower East Side, you can still be a weirdo. You can still not dress up to go to lunch. You can still, I don't know, like dress like a crazy person.

1:02:17It's very anonymous. No one is judging you. People mind their damn business. No one's staring at you on the street, no matter what you have going on. And that doesn't, that's not the West Village. No. You know? God. And I mean, it kind of used to be the West Village, but not anymore. And so what I meant by that is that this area is still like, it feels like a spiritual home still for a lot of people where they still feel like they can be their weird selves and I don't know, be disheveled or be eccentric, whatever you want to be. And it's like still okay. That's what I meant. Obviously shit has changed.

1:02:47It's been 25 years since I've lived here. and you know it's New York City well by the way people are annoying well also that yeah I know they can't help themselves the videos are like just like my god the way that I don't care it's so whatever I don't I can watch so many things and not have an opinion about it because I don't nothing bothers me that much and so when people have it's like I know I'm so chill I'm like I don't think I've ever commented negatively never ever because like there's no part of me that would feel so weird yeah no oh my god no I don't care about anything I just want to say congratulations thank you especially this last we were just saying Mother's Day was your Super Bowl.

1:03:21And I went for it. You I mean, every time I opened my phone, it was like a new amazing article and interview that you had given with like the top publications outlying the importance of understanding the postpartum experience and yours in particular. And so I'm so happy for you that it's being so well received. Thank you. And that you've done. It's been a year of touring. It's been a year. Are you done now? Yeah, because I want to go write another book. I want to go do stuff. I need the outline for my show is due, you know, like I'm I have it's been so incredible. And the most amazing thing has been meeting so many women and realizing how much collective power there is when we say our stories out loud.

1:03:59Are your DMs full of stories? Yeah, I am a repository for women's trauma. I have heard thousands of birth stories and I know how bad it is. It's bad for women. You know, it's just women on mass feel really disappointed and let down by our culture and by how being a woman and being a mother is devalued in our culture. And I hate that. And I'm really glad that I did this project, but I am ready in a way to like do another project. Well, what's funny is you wrote it and then put it out. So I think when you work on something for so long, you kind of feel like this chapter is closing, but then you have a year of promoting it and having to give it to people.

1:04:37And so I'm sure at this point you're just like ready to move on to your next thing. And you have an amazing sub stack. Oh, thank you. Oh, my God. For the art history girls, because it's like it's not mainstream. But, you know, if you're into feminist art history, it's a good this is the type of stuff that we need to be ingesting in our inboxes in the morning. It doesn't come in that often. I write out like once a month, every six weeks. So I taught a summer class for a couple semesters at Barnard about feminist art history. And I would always have friends being I went to Columbia. So I it's my alma mater.

1:05:05And I always had friends who were like, can I come audit your class? And they don't allow that up there. And I was like, all right, if you're serious, I'm just going to put my syllabus in a sub stack. But it's kind of morphed because at the beginning I was really researching so heavily and writing these like almost like more academic essays about different feminist artists that I loved. And now I kind of try and pair it with like a little personal story or narrative or anecdote just because I think it's probably easier for people to read and it's more fun to write, you know? And Substack has that, like, I think it calls for a little bit of like fun.

1:05:36Personality and fun. And, you know, I'm not ever going to be that person who writes a Substack with like outfit links. Like, I don't know how to do that. And it's not for me. Be elevated and cheeky. We know you're right now. We don't need your fucking way. But I just do love art history. And I remember growing up in Indiana and it was like my way to a different life. Were you still academic in high school? I mean, I like partied a lot and was like, oh. You clearly had really good grades. But I had good grades. And I care. I mean, I got into an incredible school and I loved art history. And I remember I had one art history class was offered at my high school and I took it and I was like, oh, my God, like people do this in their life.

1:06:11They study this. And I was just like, this is my ticket out. This is my way to another place, you know. and so I was always really committed to it and I think about like how it can change your life and how learning about feminist artists can introduce you to ideas that like no one was telling me in Indiana as a kid about feminism like I was not that I was not understanding that it was a possibility to think that you deserve to be treated equitably to men you know and so learning about it through art, I was like, oh, this is so eye-opening and like such a fun way to learn it. So I just write this little thing for other people who are into that.

1:06:51Thank you for mentioning it. Of course. Thank you for doing it. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Oh my God. Yay. You're the best. I can't, it goes so fast. I know.

1:07:02And that ladies and gentlemen concludes this week's episode of Everything is the Best. I hope you enjoyed it. Please rate, review, subscribe, all that stuff. Maybe leave a comment. Go ahead and follow me on Instagram at Pia Barancini. And I hope you have a fabulous, fabulous rest of your day. Love you. Ciao.

1:07:29Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.