The Proof Is in the Plants with Nutritionist Simon Hill

26:33And they are driving excessive body weight. And excessive body weight is really the primary driver of metabolic disease. Got it. And to varying degrees in different people. So one person at a certain body fatness can have a very different metabolic profile to the next person.

26:54Simon Hill:I mean, we all know that like skinny person that just like eats like shit. Right, so you get the skinny person that eats like shit or you can have two people that are overweight and one person manifests with metabolic disease and the other one doesn't. And a lot of that is determined by genes and where you store the fat. So fat that is stored underneath our skin, like subcutaneous fat, that's a compartment of fat, is relatively benign. It's a little less deleterious compared to fat that goes in and around organs. And we talked about this in the last podcast. What's it called? Visceral fat. Yeah.

27:26So visceral fat is between organs, ectopic fat inside, and that's what wreaks metabolic havoc. And that is why you can have two people, exact same body fatness. One of them develops type 2 diabetes and fatty liver disease and the other doesn't. That person who developed type 2 diabetes and fatty liver disease has what's called a lower personal fat threshold. So they have less capacity to store fat under their skin. So what happens is that a given body fatness, it starts to spill over earlier into those organs okay so if ultra processed foods i think the primary way they're driving disease is through over consumption of calories you're you're eating more calories than your body needs for that day yeah it hijacks the reward systems that we have in our brain going back to evolution one thing that we're really good at is having a drive for food it was a survival adaptation so that we could eat tons of food and then go into a famine.

28:21But today we eat tons of food and there is no famine.

28:25Simon Hill:Sit at a desk, yeah. Sit at a desk. But we still have that same reward system happening. So it's kind of working against us today. So your diet doesn't sound like it has a lot of those ultra processed foods, which is amazing. No. And you know, I eat like simple meals. I just started, I'm on the crazy Costco kick right now because everything's so food's so expensive so i like to get the bulk of my food from costco because they have such a wide variety of like great organic products and then i go to the farmer's market on thursdays and so i notice it's funny like even if i get something from my kids it's like a premium like my kids eat whole foods all the time they eat mango and they eat avocado and they eat I give them like bison ground grass finished bison that I get from Costco and I add a little bit of garlic I mean they eat like real they carrots a lot they don't eat a lot there's a couple things at Costco there's a couple snacks that really will just be like coconut and mango and these like little puffy things I give to my son but I look at ingredients and I'm aware of it and I like to cook and I like to eat real things and so I look at labels a lot and I think about calories, like olive oil has a lot of calories, right?

29:37Simon Hill:So I think about it in a responsible way of like, you know what program taught me a lot about this was like Weight Watchers because it just made so much sense to me that a little pile of fries would be so many points, but then I could eat endless fruit, endless vegetables, potatoes for zero points. And that comes back to energy density. Yes, exactly what you're talking about. So it is, it's calories per bite. And so what Weight Watchers, I think was such a good, like for an average person to be like, these things are zero. These things, which are good for you, butter, olive oil, eat peanut butter are good.

30:16Simon Hill:But we eat them in moderation. We don't need, and then the process stuff, when you like scan a bag, you're like, fuck. I can eat all of this, or I could have like two bites of that. And if you're somebody who, like a normal person who just wants food and wants those bites, and what you're saying about that, Like it's funny, you kind of like really understand like what food does to you and what you really need. There's a great book called Volumetrics written by Barbara Rolls. She's a nutrition scientist. And like one of her hypotheses that ties into this is that humans will typically eat the same amount of food by weight per day.

30:56But the calories will differ based on the energy density of those foods. Interesting. So for example, imagine you eat a pound of food that's super energy dense versus a pound of food that's not energy dense.

31:09Simon Hill:Cucumbers versus like muffins. One of the things that we understand is that when you're eating food that's really high volume, as it's going through the intestine, it's like activating these stretch receptors. And the stretch receptors is sending the signal to your brain, you've eaten enough, you don't need any more calories. but as you're eating foods that are super calorie dense like any oil really or any fats or the ultra processed foods you don't get as much of that feedback those stretch receptors aren't being activated as much our bodies are so brilliant that's so cool but to your protein point because we didn't address that what i've been told from tiktok is that i should have the amount of grams of protein as my goal weight per day in pounds yes so if I want to be 135 pounds yeah one gram per pound is then I should have 135 so TikToks can be pretty good for nutrition but I take everything with the sake of the grain of salt I think in the published literature if we want to start there.

32:20It is well documented that from an optimizing hypertrophy, which is muscle growth point of view. So let's start with what's the outcome of interest here? Because it might differ. If we talk about maximizing muscle growth, there is literature to show that an optimal protein intake would be at least 1.6 grams per kilo, which is a little less than a gram per pound.

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34:15Simon Hill:Get 25 % off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com slash best. Start Ritual or add Hyacera to your subscription today. That is ritual.com slash best for 25 % off. The biggest excuse I hear from people who say that they are not in therapy is that it's too expensive and it's not accessible and it's like too hard. That's why we are obsessed with Rula because Rula is on a mission to make high quality mental health care available all from a licensed professional. It is easy and affordable for everyone. Rula has got you covered because they take most major insurance plans. So the average copay is only$15 a session.

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35:37Simon Hill:That's rula.com slash best for convenient therapy that is covered by insurance. By the way, they partner with a network of over 15 ,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide. So you're going to find the best personal solution for you. And again, you're going to pay as little as$15 a session. So that is Rula.com slash best. Do you think that my goal should be muscle growth? If I'm approaching 40 and would like to lose a little bit more fat on my body and I weight lift and I work out a lot, don't you think that muscle growth is good to prevent, to keep my bones in a good place. Totally agree. And to keep the fat low on my body.

36:22Yeah. So I totally agree with that. And what I would, where I would insert myself into this conversation is that, and I'm seeing that conversation online and it rarely, it's coming with the additional information of let's also optimize your cardiovascular health at the same time. Okay. Let's not make decisions that optimize for muscle growth and bone density at the expense of cardiovascular health. Because if I want to get you into 70, 80 and 90, where yes, you need strong bones and strong muscles, you also need a strong ticker. Ticker. It's very easy. You need to have healthy arteries supplying all of your organs and the muscle with oxygenated blood and nutrients.

37:07And so if you optimize for muscle growth and in doing that, you're adopting a dietary pattern that's high animal protein and along with that comes high saturated fat. You get elevations in ApoB or LDL cholesterol. The research is pretty clear that's not going to be helpful for your long-term cardiovascular health. But you can optimize your protein intake without having it affect your cholesterol in that way. So you can make choices where you're eating leaner cuts of meat you're eating more fatty fish right because fatty fish is high in unsaturated fats not saturated fats and you increase the amount of plant protein in your diet okay and so the average diet in america about 75 80 percent of protein comes from animal foods the remainder 20 or whatever coming from plant foods if you were able to even get that more to a 50 50 so 50 of your proteins coming from animal foods 50 from plant foods you would i bet see dramatic improvement in your cholesterol but But before you did any of that, you would go and measure it.

38:11Go and measure your ApoB level, which is the primary predictor of atherosclerosis, which is the buildup of plaque in your arteries.

38:19Simon Hill:We do that with our, my husband just did it. Blood test. And the doctor was like, you have incredible genetic makeup. He was like, your genes are like, you're in a good spot. And I was like, this lucky motherfucker. Genes are big. Unbelievable. And listen, it is nothing but a privilege to be able to know that information and that it's not easy for the average person to do it. But if you can really have a jumpstart with what your body needs. Well, I think it's important to, if you can, to test and then intervene, change things around and then retest. So you can see if it's working for you. And then you're not shooting in the dark so much.

39:01But most people who eat the way that you're describing, like I bet if you were to test your APOB or LDL cholesterol, it's high. And it's just a question of how high. And even what's considered normal in this country is associated with progression of atherosclerosis. It's just not as much. But you can get your APO-B and LDL cholesterol to a level where it stops that process. Like atherosclerosis, the number one cause of cardiovascular disease, it doesn't have to exist. We understand how to stop it in its tracks.

39:34Simon Hill:Oh. Right? So if you get your APO-B to goal, so for a healthy person who doesn't have other risk factors, if you get that below 80 milligrams per deciliter, you're now getting into the territory where you're not laying down fatty plaque every day in your artery. And you can do that, a lot of people through changing their diet. Some people, so the opposite of your partner, have genes that - He was like, you have no plaque in your heart. But some people have the opposite type genes where their APOB genetically is high. So they could make dietary changes and still not get it to a level where it would be considered optimal and you're sort of halting the process of atherosclerosis.

40:15So you do need to do the test yourself. But the dietary changes that will make the biggest difference to those markers will be eating less saturated fat rich foods, which are the fatty cuts of meat, whether they're red or white. So eating leaner cuts, better again.

40:32Simon Hill:I eat lean beef and I eat lean protein. But should I be like replacing some of those with like tofu? People can replace it with fatty fish. I eat all my fish. I eat salmon. Mackerel, those types of foods. So smaller fish that are fatty. And better again, yes. So tofu, tempeh, lentils, chickpeas, working those in. Now all of a sudden you're moving towards - That seems like bloaty food to me. We can come to bloating. Let's talk about bloating. Is that my gut microbiome? Let's get to that. But I love the way your mind works. I'm just bloated right now. Just even thinking about that. It could be, yeah, initially.

41:12Simon Hill:I think you can work through that. But going and lifting weights for the first time in the gym is also pretty painful. As you're doing that now, you're moving towards more of a Mediterranean or Danish dietary pattern. If you can link in the show notes to their dietary guidelines, I think they're some of the best in the world. Denmark. Yeah. Amazing. They have very evidence-based dietary guidelines. But let's just imagine more of a Mediterranean style of eating. You're not seeing people online fighting about the Mediterranean diet being done according to the literature and done well. So I'm not talking about just wine, pizza, and pasta.

41:46Literally a diet where there is an abundance of fruits and vegetables and some whole grains, there's more plant protein than our diet. There's chickpeas and lentils and salads and these types of things. And yes, there's animal foods, but it's not a carnivore diet. And there's not a lot of dispute among credible nutrition scientists, academics. there is no disputing that a Mediterranean diet is great from a longevity point of view.

42:09Simon Hill:Yeah, that's like our peak. That's the goal. What I love about the Mediterranean diet is that there's tons of evidence from a disease risk reduction perspective, whether you're looking at diabetes, fatty liver disease, cardiovascular disease, dementia. Some people might argue, well, there's other dietary patterns that could be even more effective. But where the Mediterranean diet wins hands down is adherence because it contains all of those food groups that people are used to among different cultures. You can adapt it. You can do it low carb. You can do it high carb. So I think from an adherence, and it goes back to what we said earlier, like really if we're going to make an impact in someone's health, it's like what are you able to do the long term?

42:47That's where I think that diet comes out on top, and that's why most guidelines around the world refer to it. Because it's realistic. Because it's realistic. If I was in your position, I would test. Sounds like you've done that, but I'd look at the results, and then the changes that I would make would be determined by where those results were, where I wanna get them to and make some changes and I'd go back and retest and see.

43:10Simon Hill:Because what is it, how many plants should we ideally be eating? Like what's the ideal number of plants we're eating a week? Because our microbiome needs a lot of different sources of prebiotic fiber, regular fiber, and that comes from a variety of plant foods, correct? Right, so when we eat, we're eating for ourselves. We absorb the food, the nutrients like fats and carbs and protein and different micronutrients through the small intestine. And then certain foods that are indigestible to us keep going, parts of the food keep going. And they get into the large intestine where there's 38 trillion microbes.

43:47These components of our food, whether it's prebiotic fiber, resistant starch, or polyphenols, which often give food color, feed the microbes. I like to think of the microbiome as like our own personal pharmacy. So they will kind of ferment these components and produce other metabolites, like short chain fatty acids you might've heard of, that can then get absorbed into our bloodstream and have an effect on physiology, like reducing inflammation or increasing brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF in the brain, which is important for neuroplasticity and learning. and when we heavily restrict the diet to reduce those substrates that the microbiome needs, we aren't getting the benefit of that pharmacy.

44:36Simon Hill:Yeah, I'm fucking up. I'm not eating a lot. If I'm going back to what I've eaten the last couple of weeks, I'm not eating enough. And to your question, what's the magic number? There's some research that's shown they collected poop from 10 ,000 people. That's called the Human Gut Microbiome Project. So they got poop sent in all over the world and then they also were asking these people what kind of diet they eat. And they were trying to work out, is there a link between the type of diet someone eats and a healthy microbiome? Because your poop is really a window into your microbiome. Yeah, we do those tests with our doctors.

45:07Simon Hill:It's a fun one. And so they were asking people what type of diet, and then they were able to also look at how many different foods people were eating across a week. And what they found was that it wasn't the type of diet that predicted whether someone would have a healthy microbiome. So it wasn't whether they were eating a pescatarian diet or omnivorous or vegan or vegetarian. It was just the number of plants. The variety. Right, so the variety. So when they looked at people who had 30 or more unique plants in a week, which includes herbs and spices, so it's not as challenging as it might first sound.

45:42Simon Hill:I'm like, I can't even fit 30 fucking things in my fridge. I eat one meal a day that has lots of vegetables in it. But in the morning, I'm working and I have two kids. So it's Greek yogurt with chia seeds and a fruit or foam broth with ginger and lemon. And like lunch, I'll try to do like a salad. I have vegetables twice a day for sure. But definitely could just do more because like sometimes I'll have a meal that's just like low-fat cottage cheese and turkey bacon or low-fat cottage cheese and eggs. There's like zero. Right. There's like no fiber in any of that. Smoothies and salads are a great way to kind of work the diversity.

46:18Simon Hill:I have so much frozen fruit because in my mind, I'm a smoothie girl. They think like, I got to find the protein powder that really works for me. You don't have a favorite one? I'm telling you, I want to avoid being a farty, bloated girl more than anything because it was such a big part of my life. And right now I have a nice flat stomach. That's the thing that my husband and I don't talk about like body stuff. I keep it sexy with him. So I can't imagine being like a farty, gassy, bloated person and not having to live with my husband every day. He loves me no matter what, but it's uncomfortable.

46:52Simon Hill:But for some reason, when I have a smoothie, I try to eat beans once a week and I try to eat chickpea. I eat a lot of sweet potato. Everything outside of that, just fucking bloated. We need to get you on Dr. B's DMN. What's that? Do you know Dr. B? He wrote a book called Fiber Fueled. Oh, great. Yeah, it's an epic book. Okay. You should definitely read it. because there's a lot in there about bloating. Okay. But he's a gastroenterologist and I actually formulated this with him. So it's called Daily Microbiome Nutrition. Okay. And it is a complete prebiotics, contains polyphenols, resistant starch, and prebiotic fiber.

47:32It's going through clinical trials now. So there are clinical, there are ingredients in it that are already gone through clinical trials independently.

47:39Simon Hill:Now you're doing it as a formula? As a formula, which I think every supplement brand really, at least the way that we want to approach science from a supplement category is taking it to the next level. So, because the supplement industry, and this is a whole nother conversation, it's full of cowboys. Like honestly, there's so many moments where we've been like, holy shit. I know. So, it's one thing to use an ingredient that has clinical evidence. It's another thing to use that in the right dose, which a lot of brands don't do. And then partnered with like the other thing. Because it's expensive.

48:10Simon Hill:Yeah. Right? So, there's a lot of cost cutting. bait and switch and anyway long story short so there are ingredients that have already been proven at the specific doses in this product that increase the production of beneficial bacteria in microbiome they reduce intestinal permeability which is the scientific name for kind of leaky gut and we're getting tons and tons of people saying it's reducing their bloating so that's what's being looked at in the clinical trial is like how is it affecting bloating and by affecting bloating what does that actually mean? How can we quantify that? I'll link you to that.

48:46But back to the foods that you're eating, I think if coming back to the gym analogy, it's not about removing them. If you're getting gas or symptoms straight after eating a meal where you're feeling uncomfortable, that's a sign that the amount that you've eaten, you might've stretched it a little bit too much. So you need to dial it back, right? And keep them in there. And the microbiome does adapt over time.

49:12Simon Hill:Yeah, it takes a minute. It's just that perhaps you're looking for the changes to occur a little more quickly. And you need to play this out. You need to go low and slow, as Dr. B says. So play it out more over months as opposed to days or weeks. And just keep exposing your microbiome to those foods. And it will adapt. You'll increase the number of beneficial microbes that are able to actually ferment those foods. And then those symptoms will be lessened with a higher amount of those foods in your diet, which is then coming back to what we were saying earlier. Now all of a sudden you've got more fiber, more plant protein, less saturated fat.

49:46You're feeling good because we want you to feel good. You've made these dietary changes and you feel less bloated. You feel great. We don't want to now optimize for cardiovascular health and you lose all of that. We're trying to get a win-win scenario. So there's no simple short answer to that, but that's how I would approach that.

50:03Simon Hill:I used to be really good about, I still do. I make a thing called like a Pia plate and I'm always like, you know, I always have some sauerkraut and I always have protein and there's like two vegetables, at least olive oil. And then I love to throw like a hemp seed on top of something or like some pistachios or like some sort of like nut or seed. And there's another study because you just mentioned sauerkraut, which is a fermented food. And there was a study two or three years ago that came out in short that fermented foods are amazing for the microbiome and reduce inflammation. Yeah. Or just like 19 inflammatory markers.

50:40And that's like sauerkraut, yogurt, kimchi, these types of foods. Do you eat yogurt? No. No. But yogurt contains live cultures and is a fermented food. Yeah. And is one of the dairy foods that I think is neutral or perhaps even associated with cardiovascular benefit.

50:59Simon Hill:Right. Okay. Right. And that's a funny one because like dairy often, like you'll see headlines about dairy. But like dairy isn't one food. It's butter. it's yogurt cheese and so again context like matters you could double click on all those and fermented dairy seems to be associated with benefits or neutral everyone says that parmesan is like the best form of cheese for flavor or for well flavor for sure for delicious flavor but no because it's been aged for so long it doesn't spike anybody's insulin it doesn't have um someone's saying because it's been aged for so long like it's like has less amount of like lactose i just keep seeing everybody singing parmesan's praises literally which is fine for me because i eat it at a handful yeah the spiking of insulin is interesting because that's really become trendy over like the last five years their conversation around that for me i realized that i was having insulin spikes and cortisol spikes and i had like moon face that was crazy and i was stress.

52:01Simon Hill:I was doing basically everything. PCOS is funny because it's like the chicken or the egg. Like did the stress cause it or did I have it? And then like, but I mean, I was waking, I was fasting. I was having coffee on an empty stomach. I was doing HIIT workouts. I was eating carbs in like singular, you know, now if I have some carbs, fine. But if I have, I make sure to have salad before having a bowl of pasta. I like to go on a little bit of a walk afterwards if I can. It is very trendy, but it is something that has changed. I can see it in my face. I have cheekbones now. In my 30s, I was just doing everything that was trendy.

52:42I couldn't get

52:42Simon Hill:pregnant. My period was horrible. So making a lot of these changes is also why I feel so good. On the fermented foods, can I come back to that study? So you were talking about how some of those foods cause bloating and it can be a little challenging to try and increase them in the diet we were talking about how you would want to reduce them but not remove them and then just over time slowly increase them there that same study that looked at fermented foods had a different arm of the study looking at fiber and they had a group of people it was the same people because it was a crossover trial but they got these people to increase fiber from 20 grams to 40 grams and i've been they did notice that it increased inflammation in a lot of people and not everyone And so the people that had really good microbiome diversity at baseline tolerated the increase in fiber.

53:35And people who didn't, who had like low diversity, and that could be from eating a lot of ultra processed foods. It could be from taking a lot of antibiotics over their life, a variety of reasons. They struggled. So when they increased their fiber from 20 to 40 grams, a number of inflammatory markers went up. And again, I think this matches up well with what you hear in real life when certain people say, hey, I tried to eat more plants and I felt horrible. I felt inflamed. I felt tired. I felt bloated. And they're now going back to look at this. There's a few hypotheses. One is that the increase was too quick.

54:1620 to 40 grams is a doubling of fiber. You probably shouldn't be doing that overnight. And the second is because they noticed what happened with fermented foods, they're now thinking, what happens if we get people to lean into fermented foods first, increase their microbiome diversity over time, and then get them to add more plant foods and increase fiber? Once they have a microbiome that's a little bit more robust, diverse, and equipped to kind of handle that. So anyway, that was, I'm just flagging that as a current area of investigation. But it might be a strategy that if you're feeling good with sauerkraut and these types of foods, leaning more into those for a while to improve the diversity in your microbiome before ramping up fiber.

55:03I don't do it perfectly. Let me be clear. We go out to restaurants and eat desserts at restaurants. And it's not like I'm -

55:11Simon Hill:You live fucking life. I'm not, yeah. I'm living my life. I'm enjoying it. And I'd say 80 % like you is like exactly how I explained. And the other 20 % is a little more flexible. But I feel like that's how life should be like in general. Otherwise, it's too intense. But it's good to go out and eat things. And by the other way, I mean, that's how you get weird, right? And then you're like, well, we can't go to dinner. We can't do this. We can't do that. Then that stress is worse than anything. Yeah, particularly if, you know, I think social connection is like right at the top. Literally the first chapter of Outliers.

55:46Simon Hill:He's like, these people literally didn't die because they were connected to each other. Right. Have you read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? oh my god you'll die it's the best book ever okay i'm on it it's so i think everyone in high school should read it i read it when i was younger and i'm listening to it again when i go on my walks the first chapter is about a town called rosetta which is in somewhere on the east coast a bunch of italians immigrated and set up a town to look exactly like they're imitated exactly a typical Italian town square your meat guy your bread guy community based and this is when heart disease started really spiking in the United States they were doing studies this town these people they were the outliers they had no fucking heart disease they were living much longer than everybody else they were smoking they were drinking wine they were eating pasta they were like how is this possible the main outlier in this is that number one they weren't overdoing anything right everything in moderation but the biggest outlier was that they were connected as a community they knew each other's names they hung out with each other every single day they had coffee with each other it's like why you go to italy and you're like this place is the best it's like yeah because you get a coffee one day the next day he remembers your name it makes a little joke to you and you feel so connected loved and you feel sane and i know every every like major person we've had on the podcast it like literally just comes down to that but it's just like we just like want to love each other and be happy yeah yeah okay you got to go to dinner yeah so with your friends i mean at the moment that the moment the moment that it's like taking that away from you yeah whether it's like the exercise or the food i think it's defeating the purpose of everything you're trying to achieve totally so yeah i make plenty of time to be social and to be flexible and i think i pretty accurately described my fridge.

57:42Simon Hill:Good. Yeah. I think that's very helpful for everybody. Thank you so much. This has been so much incredible information. I feel less scared to implement more food into my diet because I know that I need to like give myself a chance to have my body like re-understand it and get used to it. Let's look at those. I'm gonna send you a letter. Let's look at those results. Let's get the Danish dietary guidelines. It's funny. That's a big argument. My husband's from Italy and my mom's from Denmark. And there are like arguments over food all the time. It's like very. She's like, let me cook. And he's like, I'm good.

58:24Simon Hill:You're not known for your food. Yeah, I'm probably going to go with the Italian food. Same thing we do all the time. She's like, you make pasta. I'm not going to try to give you pickled fish. Sorry, mom. thank you so much thank you so much where can we find you theproof.com that has links to like my Instagram is at Simon Hill and then the podcast you can just search The Proof with Simon Hill on all the platforms and where can people buy your book buy the book on Amazon you can just go to my website and you'll find a link to that which you're like a bestseller in Australia right the book did pretty good it was yeah big deal yeah then congratulations on that thank you Thank you so much.

59:06Thank you so much. Appreciate you.

59:13Simon Hill:And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes this week's episode of Everything is the Best. I hope you enjoyed it. Please rate, review, subscribe, all that stuff. Maybe leave a comment. Go ahead and follow me on Instagram at Thea Barancini. And I hope you have a fabulous, fabulous rest of your day. Love you. Ciao.

59:40Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.